subject:"Re\: \[Tagging\] Deprecation proposal\: man_made=drinking

Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-10 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging

Do you really think that we would benefit from deprecation proposal?

(general opinion seems clear to me, but I can confirm that if you really 
want...)

Oct 10, 2022, 09:57 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

> I oppose depreciation of the tag.
>
>
> I would support depreciation of all non-decorative 'fountains'.
>
>
> On 10/10/22 07:56, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> For now I
>>
>> 1) notified people who used added this tag more than once
>> (currently mapped man_made=drinking_fountain are counted)
>>
>> See notification list at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Deprecation
>>
>> 2) added section "Problems" at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Problems
>>
>> If noone will protest I will also mark it as deprecated and add request to
>> consider using other less problematic tags.
>>
>> If someone will protest I will likely make a deprecation proposal
>> (or leave it in limbo state if I will have no time for that).
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-10 Thread Warin


I oppose depreciation of the tag.


I would support depreciation of all non-decorative 'fountains'.


On 10/10/22 07:56, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

For now I

1) notified people who used added this tag more than once
(currently mapped man_made=drinking_fountain are counted)

See notification list at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Deprecation

2) added section "Problems" at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Problems

If noone will protest I will also mark it as deprecated and add request to
consider using other less problematic tags.

If someone will protest I will likely make a deprecation proposal
(or leave it in limbo state if I will have no time for that).


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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-09 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging

For now I

1) notified people who used added this tag more than once 
(currently mapped man_made=drinking_fountain are counted)

See notification list at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Deprecation

2) added section "Problems" at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain#Problems

If noone will protest I will also mark it as deprecated and add request to
consider using other less problematic tags.

If someone will protest I will likely make a deprecation proposal
(or leave it in limbo state if I will have no time for that).


Oct 4, 2022, 14:48 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:

> I am not entirely how to solve various issues surrounding drinking water 
> terminology
> (help highly welcomed!) but it is now really clear to me that
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain
> is not helpful at all and it should be marked as deprecated
>
> - many drinking fountains are eligible for man_made=water_tap
> - it duplicates > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler
> - as stated this tag is equivalent to 
>   > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler
>   but there are also water fountain which are not emitting
>   upward jet of water in the air
>
> So we have tag which for many (all?) features collides with better
> established tag AND it is duplicated AND it is poorly named AND it is rarely 
> used
> AND it introduces confusion.
>
> Can we mark it as deprecated and recommend not using it?
> With replacement of man_made=water_tap where applicable - which is 
> likely for all cases or almost all cases.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-09 Thread ael via Tagging

On Sat, Oct 08, 2022 at 03:01:57PM -0700, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> > But I was just trying to feed in that calling these things fountains is
> > not natural in everyday British English. Feel free to ignore.
> > The one term which is natural, drinking_fountain, I gather at least
> > one person wants to deprecate.
> 
> Interesting, I wonder if British English might sometimes use the term
> "fountain" more loosely, even if it has a stricter formal meaning. Here in
> the U.S., upward motion is certainly characteristic of fountains, but
> artists have a tendency to bend the rules. My favorites are the ones that
> look like waterfalls:

I am sure that there are examples. And I would not find it odd to call
some of those posted as fountains in that there is some upward motion,
and in at least one case an upward jet. 

But that was only my off-the-cuff definition in trying to isolate the
main aspect of what I perceive to be common usage. I keep saying that
I am not an expert.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-09 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 16:04, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As for the pipe ... does it have a tap, or does it flow constantly? Bore
> water? Spring water?
>

Sorry, forgot about this one.

One camping ground that I'm thinking of, that we visit frequently, water is
pumped from the creek to a big water tank, where it is triple-filtered.
It's then pumped down to a smaller tank, which is also topped up by
filtered rainwater. You then use a normal turn handle tap to fill water
jerries etc (The tap is only ~300mm from the ground so it would be very
difficult to physically drink from it!) Signs on the tank, & the parks info
brochures / website, all say "We recommend you boil this water before
drinking", but as you say, probably just a CYA exercise?

I've seen similar signs on taps in public parks, once again, probably
Council CYA.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-08 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

Wondering if one solution for continually running "fountain" vs a start /
stop tap, would be a simple ?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-08 Thread Minh Nguyen

Vào lúc 04:22 2022-10-08, ael via Tagging đã viết:

On Sat, Oct 08, 2022 at 09:52:46AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone

On 8 Oct 2022, at 07:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Example Tom Bass Wall Fountain, Sydney, Australia 1963. Nicknamed "The Urinal"
for obvious reasons!

according to a british mapper, this is not a fountain but a water feature 路‍♂️

Yep. Definitely not a fountain. As for what it is, some sort of
artistic installation. And water feature doesn't seem a bad description
among others for want of a better term.

But I was just trying to feed in that calling these things fountains is
not natural in everyday British English. Feel free to ignore.
The one term which is natural, drinking_fountain, I gather at least
one person wants to deprecate.

Interesting, I wonder if British English might sometimes use the term
"fountain" more loosely, even if it has a stricter formal meaning. Here
in the U.S., upward motion is certainly characteristic of fountains, but
artists have a tendency to bend the rules. My favorites are the ones
that look like waterfalls:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KellerFountainSummer2010.JPG

In fact, countless "fountains" are technically statues. Since the
fountain already rises above the streetscape, it creates the same effect
without pointing a jet of water directly upwards:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Genius_of_Water_-_panoramio.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bethesda_Fountain_at_Central_Park,_New_York_City_-_panoramio.jpg

Maybe this concept isn't completely foreign to the UK, given the names
of some fountains in England?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Steble_Fountain_in_action_-_geograph.org.uk_-_720965.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Diana_Fountain_in_Bushy_Park_-_panoramio.jpg

If a 2D renderer were to depict such installations with ⛲️ instead of
, I probably wouldn't be concerned about users getting confused. But a
3D renderer probably would need more specificity regardless of the
top-level tag. It cracks me up to see F4Map depict the statue-fountains
above as a very wet Venus de Milo, thanks to dual tagging with
monument=statue.

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-08 Thread ael via Tagging

On Sat, Oct 08, 2022 at 09:52:46AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 8 Oct 2022, at 07:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Example Tom Bass Wall Fountain, Sydney, Australia 1963. Nicknamed "The 
> > Urinal" for obvious reasons!
> 
> 
> according to a british mapper, this is not a fountain but a water feature 路‍♂️

Yep. Definitely not a fountain. As for what it is, some sort of
artistic installation. And water feature doesn't seem a bad description
among others for want of a better term.

But I was just trying to feed in that calling these things fountains is
not natural in everyday British English. Feel free to ignore.
The one term which is natural, drinking_fountain, I gather at least
one person wants to deprecate.

But I have not followed this thread closely. It just seemed to me that
there is a strong drift away from British usage, and I just wanted
people to be aware of that. No more.

People from more arid climates have a much richer set of objects to map
and so I guess a richer vocabulary and are in a much better position to
invent extended tagging.

I really don't feel able to comment much further

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-08 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 8 Oct 2022, at 07:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Example Tom Bass Wall Fountain, Sydney, Australia 1963. Nicknamed "The 
> Urinal" for obvious reasons!


according to a british mapper, this is not a fountain but a water feature 路‍♂️
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-08 Thread Warin



On 7/10/22 09:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Davidoskky via Tagging 
 wrote:



With all these tags, there is still no way to properly describe a
place
with a pipe that provides water which is not drinkable and not
decorative.


Throwing another one into the mix - taps in camp grounds & similar 
where they can't fully guarantee the quality, so they're signed "We 
recommend you boil this water before drinking"?


drinking = yes after boiling?



There have been attempts at applying 'further process to the water'.

I'd tag drinking_water:legal=no as a start.


Next ? drinking_water=conditional, conditional=boiling? Note I just made 
up to conditional=* thing ...



---

As for the pipe ... does it have a tap, or does it flow constantly? Bore 
water? Spring water?
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Warin



On 7/10/22 23:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am Fr., 7. Okt. 2022 um 13:46 Uhr schrieb ael :

Maybe. I guess that if I was starting from scratch, I might have a
general tag of water_feature and find choose suitable values to
describe
these things.




then I am happy we do not start from scratch :)
There are so many different kind of water features, that would be 
useless without additional tags, just like amenity=social_facility, 
there are already so many diffferent types of fountains, imagine if 
this was taken away and we'd have to start to disambiguate "water 
feature". And some fountains aren't about water at all (champagne, 
chocolate, ...) although these are really few in comparison, and 
typically not in the public space.



A decorative fountain does not have to 'spurt water up into the air'..

Example Tom Bass Wall Fountain, Sydney, Australia 1963. Nicknamed "The 
Urinal" for obvious reasons!


photo https://tbsss.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/39-PO.jpg

youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDmNkZm2KMw


The photos are decorative fountains .. to me. It may be possible to 
obtain drinking water from them, but to me visually they are for the 
most part decorative.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Warin

On 4/10/22 23:48, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
I am not entirely how to solve various issues surrounding drinking
water terminology

(help highly welcomed!) but it is now really clear to me that
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain

Wiki page established November 2017. 656 uses.

is not helpful at all and it should be marked as deprecated

- many drinking fountains are eligible for man_made=water_tap

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_tap

Wiki page established November 2017. 23,678 uses.

Taps are not 'drinking fountains' -see below.

- it duplicates https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler

Wiki page established September 2019‎ . 319 uses.

- as stated this tag is equivalent to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler
but there are also water fountain which are not emitting
upward jet of water in the air

So we have tag which for many (all?) features collides with better
established tag AND it is duplicated AND it is poorly named AND it is
rarely used

AND it introduces confusion.

?? "rarely used" but has twice the uses of the proposed replacement that
came latter?

A 'tap' is not a 'drinking fountain'.

The 'drinking fountain' is designed to be used by humans for directly
and conveniently drinking from. Always a upward arc of water at a low
flow rate.

Taps on the other hand are more convenient for filling a glass or
bottle, some times for connecting a hose - usually with a downward outlet.

Look at the symbols for each...

drinking fountain
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png

tap
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Ua_6.12_service-potable_water.svg/238px-Ua_6.12_service-potable_water.svg.png

They are different .. physically and functionally.

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

Am Fr., 7. Okt. 2022 um 13:46 Uhr schrieb ael :

> Maybe. I guess that if I was starting from scratch, I might have a
> general tag of water_feature and find choose suitable values to describe
> these things.




then I am happy we do not start from scratch :)
There are so many different kind of water features, that would be useless
without additional tags, just like amenity=social_facility, there are
already so many diffferent types of fountains, imagine if this was taken
away and we'd have to start to disambiguate "water feature". And some
fountains aren't about water at all (champagne, chocolate, ...) although
these are really few in comparison, and typically not in the public space.

To me the fact, that the fontana di Trevi in English is called Trevi
fountain, is a strong indice that it isn't completely off to call features
like this a fountain.

Dictionaries also saw "drinking fountains" as kind of fountain, although I
am happy we have 2 different main tags for them.

Generally, I believe we are mostly wasting our time here, if we wanted to
significantly change the tagging for so well established tags, the least I
would expect is a proposal that explains the problems and has a solution
that is better what we have, in all the dimensions. I am only contributing
because these are my pet features :)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread ael via Tagging

On Fri, Oct 07, 2022 at 01:07:56PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> so basically you call a "fountain" what we call in German a "Fontaine", or
> "Springbrunnen", and what could be more specifically called a "waterspout
> fountain" in English, i.e. a structure where water is blasted into the air,
> and have no word for all the sculptural fountains that don't jet water in
> the air?

I keep saying that I  am no expert, but I am not aware of any common terms
for such "water features". Yes, I think that a fountain in everyday
English implies vertical or at least a component of vertical motion in
water: come to think of it, it could be any liquid being projected into
the air.

> My superficial dictionary research seems to confirm this. Well, then maybe
> we should ignore British English usage and go for more general usage,
> because this is what I found in Germany, Italy and France?
> So how do tag all these "fountains" that aren't waterspouts in Britain,
> there must be an alternative tag for it, not?

Maybe. I guess that if I was starting from scratch, I might have a 
general tag of water_feature and find choose suitable values to describe
these things.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging


Thank you, I will close this long thread.

It makes no sense to keep talking about all these things here when the 
purpose was just the deprecation of man_made=drinking_fountain.


I'll open a new thread in which I'll try to write my ideas about all 
this in more detail in order to have a more in depth discussion about it.



About the deprecation of man_made=drinking_fountain: I'm in favour and I 
will vote to deprecate it.


I see no negative sides to the deprecation and just positive ones.

I feel that this whole discussion about british english is just 
derailing from the objective of identifying a proper scheme.



And so (as you, Davidoskky are a "primary recipient" I had in mind as I wrote 
it), I explicitly please refer you here [1]:

(and thank you, and thanks to all for continuing to read this almost-tedious 
thread).  I'm glad we do this, sometimes tiring and sometimes irritating it can 
be, but it is very much worth it.

Let's remember:  there is a LOT going on in refining / improving / extending 
tagging.  It can be hard work.



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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

so basically you call a "fountain" what we call in German a "Fontaine", or
"Springbrunnen", and what could be more specifically called a "waterspout
fountain" in English, i.e. a structure where water is blasted into the air,
and have no word for all the sculptural fountains that don't jet water in
the air?
My superficial dictionary research seems to confirm this. Well, then maybe
we should ignore British English usage and go for more general usage,
because this is what I found in Germany, Italy and France?
So how do tag all these "fountains" that aren't waterspouts in Britain,
there must be an alternative tag for it, not?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread ael via Tagging

On Fri, Oct 07, 2022 at 11:56:43AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I would be interested to learn how you would call them, if "fountain" is
> not the correct term. Also I would like to add another example and ask
> whether that's a fountain for you:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_Fountain

Well, I am not an expert, just observing what I think is everyday
English usage. Experts will have proper terminology.

But no, I wouldn't call that a fountain. I would call it something like
a decoratve water feature, but that is very general nad vague.  But
there are not that many such things in the UK, so I think we lack common
terminology in this area.

But I amy be outraging architects who may well have an extensive terms
for such things

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

I would be interested to learn how you would call them, if "fountain" is
not the correct term. Also I would like to add another example and ask
whether that's a fountain for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_Fountain

(don't let the name irritate you, just by looking at the thing).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread stevea

On Oct 7, 2022, at 12:22 AM, Davidoskky via Tagging  
wrote:
>> But I am very dubious about deprecation of amenity=drinking_water, even
>> if technically possible.
>> 
>> Yes, I agree with Mateusz:  I would find deprecation of 
>> amenity=drinking_water to be highly problematic.  It is a very 
>> long-established tag.


> I also agree with this, I don't think it would be appropriate to substitute 
> amenity=drinking_water at the moment, since it is a working tag and it is 
> quite affirmed. No reason to deprecate it in favour of some new and rather 
> unknown tags.
> 
> If nothing else, I feel that amenity=drinking_water is currently the best 
> working tag among all the ones discussed.
> 
> What I'd like is a stabilization and clear definition of all the other tags 
> so that they could actually get in use.
> 
> If these other tags get adopted by the community, then the deprecation of 
> amenity=drinking_water might be discussed, but this is definitely not the 
> right moment.
> 
> Overall, I'd like to have a discussion about how to regularize 
> amenity=fountain, man_made=water_tap and man_made=drinking_fountain in order 
> to remove all this overlap among those tags and providing a more sensible and 
> less confusing tagging scheme.

And so (as you, Davidoskky are a "primary recipient" I had in mind as I wrote 
it), I explicitly please refer you here [1]:

(and thank you, and thanks to all for continuing to read this almost-tedious 
thread).  I'm glad we do this, sometimes tiring and sometimes irritating it can 
be, but it is very much worth it.

Let's remember:  there is a LOT going on in refining / improving / extending 
tagging.  It can be hard work.

[1] https://lists.osm.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-October/065780.html
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging




But I am very dubious about deprecation of amenity=drinking_water, even
if technically possible.



Yes, I agree with Mateusz:  I would find deprecation of amenity=drinking_water 
to be highly problematic.  It is a very long-established tag.


I also agree with this, I don't think it would be appropriate to 
substitute amenity=drinking_water at the moment, since it is a working 
tag and it is quite affirmed. No reason to deprecate it in favour of 
some new and rather unknown tags.


If nothing else, I feel that amenity=drinking_water is currently the 
best working tag among all the ones discussed.



What I'd like is a stabilization and clear definition of all the other 
tags so that they could actually get in use.


If these other tags get adopted by the community, then the deprecation 
of amenity=drinking_water might be discussed, but this is definitely not 
the right moment.


Overall, I'd like to have a discussion about how to regularize 
amenity=fountain, man_made=water_tap and man_made=drinking_fountain in 
order to remove all this overlap among those tags and providing a more 
sensible and less confusing tagging scheme.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging




everybody can write everything in the wiki, but man_made=drinking_fountain is a 
low usage tag and drinking_fountain=yes is virtually unused (10 times 
globally), whoever wrote this didn’t research actual usage. Where is it written?


It is written here: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain I 
did not want to delete the line myself, but I feel it would be sensible.



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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 7 Oct 2022, at 01:09, Davidoskky via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> For example, man_made=water_tap cannot coexist with 
> man_made=drinking_fountain thus, in the wiki it currently advises to tag a 
> water fountain that has a tap as man_made=water_tap drinking_fountain=yes.

everybody can write everything in the wiki, but man_made=drinking_fountain is a 
low usage tag and drinking_fountain=yes is virtually unused (10 times 
globally), whoever wrote this didn’t research actual usage. Where is it written?

The standard tag for drinking fountains is amenity=drinking_water and it can be 
combined with man_made=water_tap as well as with fountain=drinking.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread stevea

Yes, I agree with Mateusz:  I would find deprecation of amenity=drinking_water 
to be highly problematic.  It is a very long-established tag.

On Oct 6, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:
> But I am very dubious about deprecation of amenity=drinking_water, even
> if technically possible.
> 
> Feel free to start new thread describing benefits/costs of such action.


> Oct 7, 2022, 01:05 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:
> these are 2 completely different things, one is a feature and one is a 
> property.
> 
> both can be used, but typical applications will be different.
> 
> Yes, I meant that there is no need for such feature since it overlaps with 
> other features and could very well be described as a property of one of those 
> features.


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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging




Oct 7, 2022, 01:05 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:

>> these are 2 completely different things, one is a feature and one is a 
>> property.
>>
>> both can be used, but typical applications will be different.
>>
>
> Yes, I meant that there is no need for such feature since it overlaps with 
> other features and could very well be described as a property of one of those 
> features.
>
But I am very dubious about deprecation of amenity=drinking_water, even
if technically possible.

Feel free to start new thread describing benefits/costs of such action.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging

these are 2 completely different things, one is a feature and one is a property.

both can be used, but typical applications will be different.

Yes, I meant that there is no need for such feature since it overlaps
with other features and could very well be described as a property of
one of those features.

For example, man_made=water_tap cannot coexist with
man_made=drinking_fountain thus, in the wiki it currently advises to tag
a water fountain that has a tap as man_made=water_tap drinking_fountain=yes.

In this way, you'll have to tag anything that has a tap as a secondary
value of man_made=water_tap.

it actually is a watering_place :)
There is no way to discern a man made structure for the purpose from a
naturally occurring pond.

Can you give an example what you want to tag and cannot?
I think the example I gave is appropriate. natural=spring does not apply
since it is not a naturally occurring spring and water comes from a
centralized water system. I wouldn't like to tag it as amenity=lavoir
since I would rather use that to describe large places where more than
one person could wash their clothes at the same time.

whoelse would have a pipe with nonpotable water and without a tap?
I have seen these things in a lot of places and I think we should be
able to describe them.

You can also look at these fountains which are not used to clean clothes.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2EH9RCG/perrier-france-10th-feb-2021-non-potable-water-fountain-prohibited-for-dogs-place-du-coudert-in-perrier-france-2EH9RCG.jpg

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/HWNYRY/tap-at-a-village-fountain-with-eau-non-potable-sign-indicating-the-HWNYRY.jpg

You can use these to clean yourself or at times attach a pipe to water
plants and stuff like that.

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Davidoskky via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> With all these tags, there is still no way to properly describe a place
> with a pipe that provides water which is not drinkable and not decorative.
>

Throwing another one into the mix - taps in camp grounds & similar where
they can't fully guarantee the quality, so they're signed "We recommend you
boil this water before drinking"?

drinking = yes after boiling?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread ael via Tagging

On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 05:56:03PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 6 Oct 2022, at 11:41, ael via Tagging  wrote:
> > 
> > Definitely not a fountain.
> > 
> > These all in British English.
> 
> 
> these all fountains in German and Italian, basically any sculpture with water 
> around it or emerging from it is a fountain, particularly if the water is in 
> movement.
> 
> In German, even wells are “fountains” (same word).
 
Just feeding in what I think is standard UK usage which I thought was the
default for tags. But I don't have very strong views on this.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer



sent from a phone

> On 6 Oct 2022, at 14:00, Davidoskky via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> For example a public tap where you can wash clothes, which I guess you could 
> tag as amenity=fountain, drinking_water=no but that does not differentiate it 
> from a decorative fountain. 
> http://www.sigecweb.beniculturali.it/images/fullsize/ICCD1062849/ICCD14187593_00116449%20%2D%20FOTO3B.JPG


while I can imagine it could get tagged as a fountain, there is a specific tag 
that could apply:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dlavoir

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 6 Oct 2022, at 14:00, Davidoskky via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> I feel that man_made=water_tap is quite useless in this regard and might very 
> well be substituted for a tap=yes secondary value.

these are 2 completely different things, one is a feature and one is a property.

both can be used, but typical applications will be different.

> 
> amenity=watering_place describes both natural and artificial places/objects 
> according to its use and not to what it actually is.
> 

it actually is a watering_place :)

> 
> With all these tags, there is still no way to properly describe a place with 
> a pipe that provides water which is not drinkable and not decorative.

natural=spring?
whoelse would have a pipe with nonpotable water and without a tap?
there is also something for tailing ponds.

Can you give an example what you want to tag and cannot?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 6 Oct 2022, at 11:41, ael via Tagging  wrote:
> 
> Definitely not a fountain.
> 
> These all in British English.

these all fountains in German and Italian, basically any sculpture with water 
around it or emerging from it is a fountain, particularly if the water is in 
movement.

In German, even wells are “fountains” (same word).

Basically I believe you can uphold your ideas about the meaning of fountain 
maybe in Britain, but would be surprised about the tagging in many other places.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging

I think the above should depreciate amenity=drinking_water as it is
more generic.
I do like this approach, however it forces people to actually describe
several features when entering data in the database rather than just
writing "here you can drink".

While I might like this, I think this is a lost cause unless we are able
to define a way to indicate all the other elements that should be used.

At this point what would be the main tag? amenity=water could work, but
it's quite misleading. If I'm tagging a well I feel that the main tag
should describe that it is a well, same for drinking fountains springs
and so on.

Thus, relegating drinking_water to a secondary tag works well only after
all the main tags have been clearly defined.

I'm not sure where this whole discussion is going, people don't even
agree on the specific dialect to use. I think that the wording is quite
irrelevant and that we should focus on the structure.

water_direction=up/down/horizontal/upwards
water:for=dog/cats/animals/humans/hose/trough/couplings:diameters=*

tap=yes/no tap:actuator=leaver/handle/light_beam/*
structure:style=nasone/*

I do like all the proposals you make.

I feel we should find a way to describe a man made object used to
deliver water. Wells, fountains, drinking fountains, bottle fillers,
sinks and so on.

Currently we have:

man_made=water_well

amenity=fountain

amenity=water_point

man_made=water_tap

man_made=drinking_fountain

amenity=watering_place

Some of these tags overlap very much.

I feel that the tag for wells works well (!).

On the other point there's a big issue with fountains: amenity=fountain
is used both to indicate decorative fountains and service ones.

man_made=drinking_fountain duplicates the secondary value fountain=drinking.

man_made=water_tap describes any generic water distribution system which
has a tap, thus it overlaps with many secondary values of
amenity=fountain and with man_made=drinking_fountain. I feel that
man_made=water_tap is quite useless in this regard and might very well
be substituted for a tap=yes secondary value.

amenity=watering_place describes both natural and artificial
places/objects according to its use and not to what it actually is.

With all these tags, there is still no way to properly describe a place
with a pipe that provides water which is not drinkable and not decorative.

For example a public tap where you can wash clothes, which I guess you
could tag as amenity=fountain, drinking_water=no but that does not
differentiate it from a decorative fountain.
http://www.sigecweb.beniculturali.it/images/fullsize/ICCD1062849/ICCD14187593_00116449%20%2D%20FOTO3B.JPG

I feel the first thing to decide is whether amenity=fountain should be
used both for decorative fountains and service fountains (as it is now)
or not and then either define some sensible secondary values of
fountain=* or decide which other main tags should be used to describe
all these other things.

I personally would prefer using fountain=* to describe all these things,
but I have no strong feelings about it.

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread ael via Tagging

On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 01:41:21AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn  wrote:
> > 
> > The tag amenity=fountain was created to map the entity/object known in 
> > English as fountains, and is documented in the OSM wiki with several 
> > pictures of fountains. eg
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fountain_at_Milan_citadel.JPG
> 
Definitely a fountain.

> 
> what about structures like these, how would you call them? 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ATÜ-Markt-2.jpg

Perhaps a fountain as one tag, although pretty dubious. Primarily something
else requiring local knowledge.

> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AFontana_delle_Anfore,_Roma,_Italia_Feb_25,_2021_10-54-44_AM.jpeg
> 

Not a fountain as far as I can see from the picture.

> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWall_fountain,_Roma,_Italia_Sep_01,_2020_12-33-55_PM.jpeg
> 

Definitely not a fountain.

These all in British English.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Warin

On 5/10/22 22:44, Illia Marchenko wrote:
Alternative to the sport=soccer is sport=british_football because 
"football" is context specific, and "American football", "Australian 
football", "Canadian football", "Gaelic football" exists.

In parts of Britain 'football' is rugby ...

For some people in Australia 'football' is soccer, others rugby, others 
AFL (OSM 'australian_football').

ср, 5 окт. 2022 г., 13:52 martianfreeloader 
:

There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British
English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in
Australia
while a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa,
Portuguese or Korean word, just because it exists.

I know there are a few exceptions like sport=soccer, footway=sidewalk
and sidewalk=*, but I think this kind of exceptions shouldn't be made
without a very good reason.

On 05/10/2022 12:04, Warin wrote:
>
> On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote:
>> Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết:
>>> I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which
>>> appears to be an American English term for a British English
drinking
>>> fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American
English term.
>>> What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking
fountain?
>>
>> To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston,
>> Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking
>> fountain" or "water fountain". [1]
>
>
> No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere
is the
> world.
>
> -
>
> In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water
> upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water
bottle
> filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from
with flow
> rates to suit direct human consumption.
>
>
> Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater
than
> convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'.
>
>
> The problem?
>
>
> 1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly
basic. At the
> moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the
secondary
> tag of drinking_water=yes.

This fails to consider the supply of water that is not drinkable ... 
thus complicating the tagging.

So I have revised this in another message.

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-06 Thread Warin

On 6/10/22 10:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone

On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn wrote:

When it should be, as a suggestion, drinking_water:type=bubbler, or
drinking_water:type=bottle_refill.

these tags are misleading, you are not describing drinking water, hence it is
not a suitable approach IMHO.
amenity=drinking_water is not only used for fountains, some may be springs or
water taps, it is a very generic tag which has the essential information for
thirsty people, the fountain key can be added to some of them to further
specify the feature. If you don’t like it, don’t use it.

Another issue.. tagging non drinking water ... may have the same
physical properties as a drinking water feature other than the quality
of the water...

So .. ???

amenity=water - as the main tag - exists but marked as depreciated...
says 'here is water'. This is more generic than amenity=drinking_water.

secondary tags

drinking_water=yes/no/* .. already exists

drinking_water:legal=yes/no already exists

I think the above should depreciate amenity=drinking_water as it is more
generic.

Then the question of delivery ???

water_direction=up/down/horizontal/upwards ?

something for the application - for
dogs/cats/horses/humans/hose/bottle_refill/*

water:for=dog/cats/animals/humans/hose/trough/* Each would need a
precise description...

The question of the physical structure used to deliver the water

couplings:type=plain/threaded/storz/camlock/* exists for fire hydrants
.. but needs some added values.

couplings:diameters=* exists ... though I think the inner diameters
should be used as what is seen.

Tap if it exists?

tap=yes/no

Some may want to tag the tap actuator?

tap:actuator=leaver/handle/light_beam/*

Some may want to tag the structural style of the thing

structure:style=nasone/*

---

Rendering?

If direction upwards and water:for=humans then render as for bubbler -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png
else;

If tap=yes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png
else;

as a water drop, singular.

colour blue if drinkable

colour brown if not drinkable.

Add tap if tap=yes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Minh Nguyen


Vào lúc 03:04 2022-10-05, Warin đã viết:


On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote:

Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết:
I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which 
appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking 
fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term. 
What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?


To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, 
Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking 
fountain" or "water fountain". [1]



No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the 
world.


Sure, I was just clarifying that "bubbler" isn't _the_ American English 
term for these devices. Sorry for distracting from the more substantive 
concern about "fountain", unqualified. It does feel a bit like 
economizing on keystrokes.


(For what it's worth, I think standardizing on English vocabulary and 
one English dialect's spelling pattern has benefited the project in 
terms of predictability. But expecting consistent use of British English 
vocabulary is already kind of a lost cause, considering the existing 
subset of approved tags and the reality that no one dialect of English 
has a word for everything.)


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us




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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn  wrote:
> 
> When it should be, as a suggestion,  drinking_water:type=bubbler, or 
> drinking_water:type=bottle_refill. 

these tags are misleading, you are not describing drinking water, hence it is 
not a suitable approach IMHO. 
amenity=drinking_water is not only used for fountains, some may be springs or 
water taps, it is a very generic tag which has the essential information for 
thirsty people, the fountain key can be added to some of them to further 
specify the feature. If you don’t like it, don’t use it.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer



sent from a phone

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn  wrote:
> 
> The tag amenity=fountain was created to map the entity/object known in 
> English as fountains, and is documented in the OSM wiki with several pictures 
> of fountains. eg
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fountain_at_Milan_citadel.JPG


what about structures like these, how would you call them? 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ATÜ-Markt-2.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AFontana_delle_Anfore,_Roma,_Italia_Feb_25,_2021_10-54-44_AM.jpeg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWall_fountain,_Roma,_Italia_Sep_01,_2020_12-33-55_PM.jpeg

the picture you posted is very clear for a specific type, but there are many 
other types as well.

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer




sent from a phone

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 13:48, ael via Tagging  wrote:
> 
> As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler".
> As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian.
> I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then
> I haven't followed this thread closely. But some pictures of alleged
> "drinking fountains" elsewhere in the world, don't seem to conform to
> the British terminology.



fountain=drinking is indeed the generic tag for a drinking fountain, 
fountain=bubbler is more specific

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Marc_marc


Le 05.10.22 à 15:21, Jass Kurn a écrit :
it should be, as a suggestion,  drinking_water:type=bubbler, or 
drinking_water:type=bottle_refill.


:type is a meaningless suffix
type of what ? big/small ? private/public ? nice/ugly ?
so our suggestion could be   drinking_water=bubbler, or
drinking_water=bottle_refill.
bbut as bubbler isn't a BE term, another value is necessary (without 
forgetting that there is a way to fill a bottle with a "bubbler"

even if it is more practical when the jet goes down)



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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Jass Kurn

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 12:48, ael via Tagging 
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 05, 2022 at 10:46:39AM +, martianfreeloader wrote:
>
> As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler".
> As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian.
> I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then
>

 I brought up the issue with bubbler not being a British term, but I'm not
really bothered by the specific word "bubbler" which is reasonably
descriptive. Concentrating on the word bubbler is a distraction from what I
think is the main issue.

The issue is the misuse of key:fountain.

The tag amenity=fountain was created to map the entity/object known in
English as fountains, and is documented in the OSM wiki with several
pictures of fountains. eg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fountain_at_Milan_citadel.JPG

In English a small structure that spurts out drinking water is commonly
referred to as a "drinking fountain". . "Drinking Fountain" contains the
word fountain but it is not a fountain. In the same way "car park" contains
the word park but is not a "park".  OSM has a reasonable tag of
amenity=drinking_water to map drinking water sources.

At some point a contributor decided to create a key to primarily document
types of amenity_water and "specific types of drinking water fountains".
They made, in my opinion, a huge mistake by naming it key:fountain. The tag
guidance is then added to the fountain wiki page. The result is the
existence of tags such as fountain=bubbler, and fountain=bottle_refill.
When it should be, as a suggestion,  drinking_water:type=bubbler, or
drinking_water:type=bottle_refill.

Jass
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread ael via Tagging

On Wed, Oct 05, 2022 at 10:46:39AM +, martianfreeloader wrote:
> There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British
> English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia while
> a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa, Portuguese or
> Korean word, just because it exists.

As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler".
As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian.
I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then
I haven't followed this thread closely. But some pictures of alleged
"drinking fountains" elsewhere in the world, don't seem to conform to
the British terminology.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Illia Marchenko

Alternative to the sport=soccer is sport=british_football because
"football" is context specific, and "American football", "Australian
football", "Canadian football", "Gaelic football" exists.

ср, 5 окт. 2022 г., 13:52 martianfreeloader :

> There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British
> English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia
> while a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa,
> Portuguese or Korean word, just because it exists.
>
> I know there are a few exceptions like sport=soccer, footway=sidewalk
> and sidewalk=*, but I think this kind of exceptions shouldn't be made
> without a very good reason.
>
>
>
> On 05/10/2022 12:04, Warin wrote:
> >
> > On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> >> Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết:
> >>> I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which
> >>> appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking
> >>> fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term.
> >>> What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?
> >>
> >> To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston,
> >> Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking
> >> fountain" or "water fountain". [1]
> >
> >
> > No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the
> > world.
> >
> > -
> >
> > In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water
> > upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water bottle
> > filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from with flow
> > rates to suit direct human consumption.
> >
> >
> > Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than
> > convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'.
> >
> >
> > The problem?
> >
> >
> > 1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the
> > moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary
> > tag of drinking_water=yes.
> >
> >
> > 2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature
> for;
> >
> > 2a) humans to directly drink from. Consider a small child, the elderly.
> >
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png
> >
> >
> > 2b) refilling glasses/cup/mugs/bottle from. In most instances there
> > would be some form of tap?
> >
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png
> >
> >
> > 2c) refiling large vessels from e.g. caravans, boats? A little google
> > searching for caravans leads me to believe that they use 'normal' taps,
> > probably because they are 'everywhere' and more likely to be 'free'.
> >
> >
> > This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things?
> >
> >
> > Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap,
> > bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain?
> >
> > So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water?
> >
> > water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary
> > sources, and streams and pools  - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas
> >
> >
> > It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause
> > too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above?
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread martianfreeloader

There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British
English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia
while a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa,
Portuguese or Korean word, just because it exists.

I know there are a few exceptions like sport=soccer, footway=sidewalk
and sidewalk=*, but I think this kind of exceptions shouldn't be made
without a very good reason.

On 05/10/2022 12:04, Warin wrote:

On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote:

Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết:
I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which
appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking
fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term.
What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?

To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston,
Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking
fountain" or "water fountain". [1]

No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the
world.

In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water
upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water bottle
filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from with flow
rates to suit direct human consumption.

Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than
convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'.

The problem?

1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the
moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary
tag of drinking_water=yes.

2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature for;

2a) humans to directly drink from. Consider a small child, the elderly.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png

2b) refilling glasses/cup/mugs/bottle from. In most instances there
would be some form of tap?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png

2c) refiling large vessels from e.g. caravans, boats? A little google
searching for caravans leads me to believe that they use 'normal' taps,
probably because they are 'everywhere' and more likely to be 'free'.

This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things?

Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap,
bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain?

So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water?

water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary
sources, and streams and pools - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas

It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause
too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above?

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-05 Thread Warin

On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote:

To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston,
Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking
fountain" or "water fountain". [1]

No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the
world.

Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than
convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'.

The problem?

1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the
moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary
tag of drinking_water=yes.

2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature for;

This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things?

Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap,
bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain?

So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water?

water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary
sources, and streams and pools - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas

It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause
too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above?

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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 at 22:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Can we mark it as deprecated and recommend not using it?
>

Yep, I'd be happy with that.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 04:59, Jass Kurn  wrote:

>
> I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears to
> be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain.
>

Possibly it is?, but as an Australian English speaker, we grew up with
water bubblers in schools & occasionally around streets in town.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

I have introduced the bubbler tag because internet search suggested it was
a suitable term, and it works well in the sense that you can imagine what
it is about just by looking at the tag "fountain=bubbler".
In general, I suggest you take out your phone and make a picture of the
drinking fountains and link them from OSM :)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

Am Di., 4. Okt. 2022 um 17:14 Uhr schrieb Davidoskky via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

>
> *Bubbler with tap *
>
>- amenity=fountain
>- fountain=bubbler
>- drinking_water=yes
>- man_made=water_tap
>
>

they are not usually mapped as "amenity=fountain", typical tagging is:
amenity=drinking_water
additionally you can add these to make clear it is a bubbler:
fountain=bubbler
and man_made=water_tap (if you like)


>
>
> *Drinking fountain with downward jet without tap*
>
>- amenity=fountain
>- fountain=drinking
>- drinking_water=yes
>
>
again, amenity=drinking_water, fountain=drinking

the drinking_water property is not needed for amenity=drinking_water, and
will not be tagged usually.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Minh Nguyen


Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết:
I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears 
to be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain. 
Why promote another term, and use an American English term. What was 
wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?


To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, Rhode 
Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking fountain" or 
"water fountain". [1]


Personally, I could live with a "bubbler" tag, because it sounds 
hilarious to me (a Midwesterner living in the West), much like calling a 
roundabout a "rotary". [2]


[1] http://dialect.redlog.net/staticmaps/q_103.html
[2] http://dialect.redlog.net/staticmaps/q_84.html

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us




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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging

Oct 4, 2022, 20:54 by jassk...@gmail.com:

> I can not agree with deleting this tag while the rest of the tagging for 
> drinking water is such a mess. It feels as if you're concentrating on an ant 
> in the corner of the room while ignoring the dancing elephant in the middle 
> of the room. 
>
I agree that it is an ant, but this tag solves exactly no problems and just 
confuses people

So I want to start from obviously good idea and proceed later to less blatantly 
obvious

This tag is not only useless, it is actively misleading and confusing about 
terminology
(and confused at least me)

Getting rid of it will also make easier to discuss other changes.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging



in my experience, small steps are more likely to succeed and are a 
good thing, especially when they go in a consistent long-term direction



I agree with Marc, man_made=drinking_fountain appears to be completely 
useless and redundant.


I see no reason against deprecating it.

If other things to improve the fountains situation can be done that 
would be great, but at least this is a start.



Do feel it should eventually be deleted, but as part of sorting out 
issues with using "fountain" and "drinking fountain" sharing part of 
the same tag. 


I don't see why drinking fountains shouldn't be a value of fountain=* if 
the key fountain exists it makes no sense to put fountains under man_made.


Drinking fountains are a particular typology of fountains.



What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?
Nothing wrong, a bubbler is a particular type of drinking fountain, one 
in which the jet of water is upwards.


You can use fountain=drinking for all the others.


We are not talking about a big number of elements, thus changes should 
not be too problematic, I have generally seen most drinking fountains 
tagged as amenity=drinking_water which is a rather unspecific tag that 
could easily be substituted by drinking_water=yes.


 * drinking_water=yes
   : 112,290
 * amenity=drinking_water
   :
   266,403 elements
 * man_made=drinking_fountain
   :
   650 elements
 * fountain=bubbler
   : 314
   elements
 * fountain=drinking
   : 265
   elements

As you can see, amenity=drinking_water is currently the most common way 
to tag this.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Marc_marc


Le 04.10.22 à 20:54, Jass Kurn a écrit :
I can not agree with deleting this tag while the rest of the tagging for 
drinking water is such a mess


it depend if this one is a good idea, despite the dancing elephant :)
or if it's not a good idea

in my experience, small steps are more likely to succeed and are a good 
thing, especially when they go in a consistent long-term direction




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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Jass Kurn

I can not agree with deleting this tag while the rest of the tagging for
drinking water is such a mess. It feels as if you're concentrating on an
ant in the corner of the room while ignoring the dancing elephant in the
middle of the room.

Do feel it should eventually be deleted, but as part of sorting out issues
with using "fountain" and "drinking fountain" sharing part of the same tag.
They're different entities, in the way "park" and "car park" are different.

I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears to
be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain. Why
promote another term, and use an American English term. What was wrong with
calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain?
As I'm writing this, I'm also looking at the wiki and realising it's even
more complex than I thought when I first started. I'll go off and read some
more, but I'm beginning to think the only solution would be depreciating
the whole subject area (not possible) and starting again.

Jass

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 at 13:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I am not entirely how to solve various issues surrounding drinking water
> terminology
> (help highly welcomed!) but it is now really clear to me that
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Ddrinking_fountain
> is not helpful at all and it should be marked as deprecated
>
> - many drinking fountains are eligible for man_made=water_tap
> - it duplicates https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler
> - as stated this tag is equivalent to
>   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Dbubbler
>   but there are also water fountain which are not emitting
>   upward jet of water in the air
>
> So we have tag which for many (all?) features collides with better
> established tag AND it is duplicated AND it is poorly named AND it is
> rarely used
> AND it introduces confusion.
>
> Can we mark it as deprecated and recommend not using it?
> With replacement of man_made=water_tap where applicable - which is
> likely for all cases or almost all cases.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Davidoskky via Tagging



With replacement of man_made=water_tap where applicable  > which is 
likely for all cases or almost all cases.


and for other amenity=fountain + drinking_water=yes ?


I agree, man_made=drinking_fountain has no reason to exist.


*Bubbler with tap
*

 * amenity=fountain
 * fountain=bubbler
 * drinking_water=yes
 * man_made=water_tap

*Drinking fountain with downward jet without tap*

 * amenity=fountain
 * fountain=drinking
 * drinking_water=yes

Moreover, I feel that drinking_water=yes is redundant in this case; it 
could be advised that fountain=drinking and fountain=bubbler include 
drinking_water=yes thus making it optional in this case.
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain

2022-10-04 Thread Marc_marc


Le 04.10.22 à 14:48, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

Can we mark it as deprecated and recommend not using it?


yes


With replacement of man_made=water_tap where applicable  > which is likely for 
all cases or almost all cases.


and for other amenity=fountain + drinking_water=yes ?



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