subject:"Re\: \[OSM\-talk\] \[Tagging\] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj \/ nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych \/ names of international objects"


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/81476133

On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
The labels would probably need to be tied together into a relation to 
avoid this


sorry, I considered as if this was always already the case.

Gulf of Venice and Gulf of Trieste are both already relations.

I assumed this would be the case elsewhere too. it was my understanding 
that my suggestion would use the already present complexity, not add to 
it.  please prove me wrong in a couple of relevant cases.  then we can 
look at them.



On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
You also don't know if you're looking at multiple separately named 
regions or one large feature with multiple translations.


not sure I understand this one.  can you exemplify?

ah, you mean, I would see a label in a language I can't read, and I 
might not even recognize it as belonging to the same feature. but, I 
mean, we're speaking of the showcase, not of a properly localized map, 
so who cares?


on the other hand, designing and programming such a complication just 
for a showcase isn't maybe worth the effort.  so: I don't know.


MF



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Alan Mackie

>
> placing a localized version of the name tag in front of the
>
corresponding language area is still an option I support.  Red Sea would
> be a nice test-bed, just like the Ostsee.
>

The problem I see with this is that it violates the 'one feature one
element' principle. The labels would probably need to be tied together into
a relation to avoid this and that then starts to get very complicated very
quickly. You also don't know if you're looking at multiple separately named
regions or one large feature with multiple translations.

Adding a language name to the URL schema does not look so difficult to
> me, what's going to be difficult is paying the money needed to hold the
> data.
>

I think the cost implications mostly go away with vector tiles as you are
essentially "rendering" client side and the additional server side load is
(allegedly) minimal. Browser support and processing power on the consumer
side can then start to be an issue as it's not as trivial to display as a
simple image. From my limited viewpoint the greatest risk I see from vector
tiles is that the capacity for abuse skyrockets as the client side
customisability might lead some to think "this is like Mapbox but free" and
just pull from openstreetmap.org instead of using a proper service.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects


On 25/02/2020 18:39, Alan Mackie wrote:
so long as there won't be an edit war over precedence. Languages 
separated by "/" or similar.


OSM in Morocco uses the `-` (dash) as separator.  (they have two and 
locally three national languages)


I'll try this for the Gulf of Venice and Trieste, and see where we 
land.  I will not re-edit if someone changes order nor removes content, 
but I might choose to comment on any subsequent changeset, possibly also 
alert the DWG.


regarding the seas where the `name` has disappeared altogether, I will 
not put English back: I will choose a couple of languages, and invite 
other native speakers of bordering countries to add their own, and to 
see for themselves if the name is becoming too space demanding in the 
rendering.


I will do nothing for areas where they speak a language I can't even 
read (East Asia).


---

placing a localized version of the name tag in front of the 
corresponding language area is still an option I support.  Red Sea would 
be a nice test-bed, just like the Ostsee.


Adding a language name to the URL schema does not look so difficult to 
me, what's going to be difficult is paying the money needed to hold the 
data.


anyhow, stop me if you think this plan is nonsensical.

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Alan Mackie

Names with one, two or three languages where there are a limited number of
neighbours/occupants seems logical so long as there won't be an edit war
over precedence. Languages separated by "/" or similar. More languages than
that seems too unwieldy which rules out its use even for some 'relatively
small' features.

At this stage deleting the 'plain' name tags from highly
international object is pure vandalism in my opinion. It will continue to
be vandalism at least as long as the 'default render' relies on having a
name=*. It is too much of a barrier to entry to rely on users having the
necessary query skills to surface invisible features, and there would be
duplicates as a result of it.

I see no benefit to changing the 'fallback language' to something else at
this stage, especially to a little used construct. Saying "*if* we all
taught 'X' language to kids; it would be a universal language" could be
said about literally any language whether you are promoting English,
Spanish, Lojban or Quenya. How hard these languages are to learn is highly
dependant on what languages you have already learned, but this is largely a
distraction. People inevitably choose to teach languages with a sizeable
history to them first, novel inventions second (or more likely fourth), if
at all.

Vector tiles that prefer either the browser's requested languages or
something selectable would be ideal, but we aren't there yet technically
for the main 'editors map'. When we are it might be worthwhile revisiting
this discussion.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 21:57, Mario Frasca  wrote:

> I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.
>
> we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in
> English".
>
> as for the values of the `name` tag:
>
> I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.
>
> I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".
>
> I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of Trieste"
> for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where Friuls is a
> recognized language), and Slovenia.
>
> and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
> language identifier to the tile request.
>
> I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.
>
> MF
> On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
>
> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
> "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
>
> Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
> obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
> graniczących z państwami.
> Dziękuję za dyskusję
>
> La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
> etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
> apudaj al landoj.
> Dankon por diskuto
>
> The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
> “name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
> adjacent to the countries.
> Thank you for discussion
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing 
> listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects


I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.

we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in 
English".


as for the values of the `name` tag:

I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.

I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".

I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of 
Trieste" for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where 
Friuls is a recognized language), and Slovenia.


and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a 
language identifier to the tile request.


I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.

MF

On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that "this 
is a settled matter."
SteveA


Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Jo

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 4:33 PM Hartmut Holzgraefe  wrote:

> On 25.02.20 15:36, Tomek wrote:
>  > Everyone uses the same learning
>  > costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.
>
> I'd assume that the cost argument doesn't hold, it's going to be more
> easy for Europeans than for e.g. Chinese or Japanese. It starts with
> the letters used, which give people that have grown up with a a
> Latinbased language a first head start, and it continues with the
> vocabulary
> that is also favoring (west) European learners. (Can't say anything
> about the grammer, I'm not that deep into it, but I assume the same
> is true for that, too)
>

I actually learned Esperanto and am a great fan.
Learning English properly is notoriously hard for most of the world's
population. Native speakers always are at an advantage.
Europeans coming from Germanic and Scandinavian languages have a bigger
advantage for learning English.
All Europeans have an advantage if they wanted to learn Esperanto.

Esperanto is written like it is spoken and vice versa. Completely phonetic
by design.

The grammar has 20 rules and not a single exception. The grammar is
extremely easy, even when it takes some getting used to at first. But that
can be said about all languages.

Most people can learn the basics in a crash course of 24 hours. Fluency can
be achieved by people used to the Latin script in 3 months, for people
using other scripts this becomes 6 months and then their level would be
better than if they had learned English for 6+ years.

It would be nice if the whole world's population would decide to teach
Esperanto to their children as a second language. 20 years later everyone
would be able to communicate with anyone else, at the same level.

I also realise this is not going to happen anytime soon. The world is more
likely to switch to Chinese instead, than to do something that would make a
lot of sense.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to learn Esperanto is because I wanted to
figure out whether it's possible to express oneself in an 'artificially'
created language; and yes, it's possible. Sometimes with even more nuance
than in other languages.

Anyway, just my €0.2 After having learned Esperanto I have continued to
learn other languages. I wouldn't say it has failed. It's still present
after more than a hundred years. Let's hope the world population comes to
its senses, but I'm not holding my breath.

Having said all that, I don't think it would make sense to put Esperanto in
our name object for international features. Not before 30% of the world's
population decided to learn it first, anyway.

Polyglot
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
> "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread stevea

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
"this is a settled matter."
SteveA

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
>> You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn 
>> Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than Esperanto. 
>> Then what is the more logical choice? 
> Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco kaj 
> simpleco.
> Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco kaj 
> simpleco.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
>> If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting every mail 
>> into a translator, than why not do that? 
>> Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't force 
>> other people to use a translator just because you choose not to write in 
>> English.
> Tiu ĉi rilato estu simetria: mi ne devigos al aliaj uzi Esperanton aŭ la 
> polan, aliaj ne devigos al mi uzi la anglan.
> This relationship should be symmetrical: I will not force others to use 
> Esperanto or Polish, others will not force me to use English.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Yves pisze:
>> This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
>> The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo of 
>> using an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words spent 
>> off of this matter, this status quo is slowly reaching consensus, keep on!
> Mi akordas kun vi, ke la diskuto iĝas en malĝusta direkto, anstataŭ pri nomoj 
> de internaciaj objektoj, ni diskutas pri lingvo de la diskuto. Pardonu, kial 
> nomoj de oceanoj estu en la angla, sed ne en la pola?
> I agree with you that the discussion is going in the wrong direction, instead 
> of the names of international objects, we are discussing the language of the 
> discussion. Sorry, why should ocean names be in English but not in Polish?
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Mario Frasca pisze:
>> automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail 
>> terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the reach 
>> of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.
> Mi eblas komunikadi kun vi uzante tradukilojn Google kaj Yandex.
> I can communicate with you using Google and Yandex translators.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
>> Are you serious?
>> 
>> "almost no one" is a weird claim,
>> given that over 2 000 000 000 people
>> managed.
>> 
>> Over 600 000 000 did this as a
>> foreign language.
>> 
>> (And it is not like pronunciation is
>> used on text-only mailing list!)
> Infanoj pasigas kelkajn jarojn por lerni (kun mizera sukceso) la anglan, tiun 
> tempon ili povus pasigi por lerni Esperanton kaj aliajn profitdonajn 
> povsciadojn. Mi lernis ĝin por naŭ jaroj, povas lerni anglan Vikipedion, 
> teĥnikajn artikolojn, sed ne povas paroli kaj aŭskulti filmojn en ĝi. Post 
> lerni Esperanton en unu jaro mi sentas min pli lerta en ĝi ol en la angla.
> Children spend a few years learning English (with disastrous success), this 
> time they could spend learning Esperanto and other profitable knowledge. I 
> have been learning it for nine years, can learn English Wikipedia, technical 
> articles, but cannot speak and listen to movies in it. After learning 
> Esperanto in one year, I feel more fluent in it than in English.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 20:22, stevea pisze:
>> I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked 
>> by Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable 
>> disagreements), as we have repeated our points so many times that seems to 
>> be the only thing left for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek 
>> persists:  simply to argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the 
>> room, the flame can no longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase 
>> like "it's a settled matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns 
>> here.
> MI NE VOLAS KVERELI, mi nur volas interkonseton! Mi volas montri al vi ke 
> angla ne estas la plej bona lingvo por komunikado, estas maljusta.
> I DON'T WANT TO COME, I just want a deal! I want to show you that English is 
> not the best language for communication, it is unfair.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn
> Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than
> Esperanto. Then what is the more logical choice?
Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
kaj simpleco.
Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
kaj simpleco.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting
> every mail into a translator, than why not do that?
> Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't
> force other people to use a translator just because you choose not to
> write in English. 
Tiu ĉi rilato estu simetria: mi ne devigos al aliaj uzi Esperanton aŭ la
polan, aliaj ne devigos al mi uzi la anglan.
This relationship should be symmetrical: I will not force others to use
Esperanto or Polish, others will not force me to use English.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Yves pisze:
> This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
> The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo
> of using an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words
> spent off of this matter, this status quo is slowly reaching
> consensus, keep on!
Mi akordas kun vi, ke la diskuto iĝas en malĝusta direkto, anstataŭ pri
nomoj de internaciaj objektoj, ni diskutas pri lingvo de la diskuto.
Pardonu, kial nomoj de oceanoj estu en la angla, sed ne en la pola?
I agree with you that the discussion is going in the wrong direction,
instead of the names of international objects, we are discussing the
language of the discussion. Sorry, why should ocean names be in English
but not in Polish?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Mario Frasca pisze:
> automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they
> fail terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond
> the reach of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.
Mi eblas komunikadi kun vi uzante tradukilojn Google kaj Yandex.
I can communicate with you using Google and Yandex translators.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Are you serious?
>
> "almost no one" is a weird claim,
> given that over 2 000 000 000 people
> managed.
>
> Over 600 000 000 did this as a
> foreign language.
>
> (And it is not like pronunciation is
> used on text-only mailing list!)
Infanoj pasigas kelkajn jarojn por lerni (kun mizera sukceso) la anglan,
tiun tempon ili povus pasigi por lerni Esperanton kaj aliajn
profitdonajn povsciadojn. Mi lernis ĝin por naŭ jaroj, povas lerni
anglan Vikipedion, teĥnikajn artikolojn, sed ne povas paroli kaj
aŭskulti filmojn en ĝi. Post lerni Esperanton en unu jaro mi sentas min
pli lerta en ĝi ol en la angla.
Children spend a few years learning English (with disastrous success),
this time they could spend learning Esperanto and other profitable
knowledge. I have been learning it for nine years, can learn English
Wikipedia, technical articles, but cannot speak and listen to movies in
it. After learning Esperanto in one year, I feel more fluent in it than
in English.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 20:22, stevea pisze:
> I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked 
> by Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable 
> disagreements), as we have repeated our points so many times that seems to be 
> the only thing left for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek 
> persists:  simply to argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the room, 
> the flame can no longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase like 
> "it's a settled matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns here.
MI NE VOLAS KVERELI, mi nur volas interkonseton! Mi volas montri al vi
ke angla ne estas la plej bona lingvo por komunikado, estas maljusta.
I DON'T WANT TO COME, I just want a deal! I want to show you that
English is not the best language for communication, it is unfair.
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects


On 25/02/2020 14:46, stevea wrote:

Evidently there is more to say about this


my impression at the moment is that we have different expectations from 
"the" map, that's the tiles at 
https://c.tile.openstreetmap.org/11/1100/731.png and similar URLs.


is their purpose "showcasing the OSM database" ?

or is it "offering a one-fits-all" solution to having some minimal base 
for stuff like umap, or any site we develop, using leaflet for example.


if it's just showcasing, it's working fine.

but since it's being used, just to give an example, at 
umap.openstreetmap.co, then no, it does not fit.


if OSM was receiving as much money as those billionaires running for the 
presidency of the USA, I would dare ask:


keep the current site displaying whatever value is stored in `name`, 
then add a URL schema to let the client request a specific language.  if 
objects have English in their `name`, who would care less, if we could 
request the tiles in the language we prefer? start with a couple of 
languages, like Spanish, French, and I do not dare to continue this 
imperialistic list.


would this be beyond reach for the Foundation?

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread stevea

On Feb 25, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Mario Frasca  wrote:
> 
> On 25/02/2020 14:22, stevea wrote:
>> as an emerging (emerged?) consensus we seem to be leaving the names of 
>> international objects in English
> 
> I wish to express my disagreement.
> 
> and I will give more examples, from openstreetmap.org, "the" map.
> 
> Gulf of Venice; Gulf of Trieste; unlabelled Mare Adriatico; North Sea; 
> unlabelled Ostsee; unlabelled Canale di Otranto; Balearic Sea (you're kidding 
> me!); unlabelled Mediterranean; unlabelled Red Sea; unlabelled seas and 
> straits West of Japan; unlabelled Bering Strait;
> 
> so while I do feel uncomfortable seeing English labels between Venezia, 
> Trst/Trieste and Istria, I am even more uncomfortable with the absence of 
> labels elsewhere.

OK, Mario.  Evidently there is more to say about this.  Let us continue.
SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects


On 25/02/2020 14:22, stevea wrote:

as an emerging (emerged?) consensus we seem to be leaving the names of 
international objects in English


I wish to express my disagreement.

and I will give more examples, from openstreetmap.org, "the" map.

Gulf of Venice; Gulf of Trieste; unlabelled Mare Adriatico; North Sea; 
unlabelled Ostsee; unlabelled Canale di Otranto; Balearic Sea (you're 
kidding me!); unlabelled Mediterranean; unlabelled Red Sea; unlabelled 
seas and straits West of Japan; unlabelled Bering Strait;


so while I do feel uncomfortable seeing English labels between Venezia, 
Trst/Trieste and Istria, I am even more uncomfortable with the absence 
of labels elsewhere.




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread stevea

This discussion is tedious and exhausting.  We've paid out miles and miles of 
patient listening to Tomek's points, politely (and unanimously) disagreed with 
him, yet still, he persists in thrusting his polemic upon a communication 
channel intended to discuss open source mapping of a particular linguistic 
register (the OSM talk page, where "which language should / do we use?" is a 
completely settled question, not an open one).  I believe I speak for many of 
us when I say I no longer wish to entertain "linguistic imperialism" 
discussions.

I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked by 
Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable disagreements), as 
we have repeated our points so many times that seems to be the only thing left 
for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek persists:  simply to 
argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the room, the flame can no 
longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase like "it's a settled 
matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns here.

Let's return to discussing mapping.  I agree:  as an emerging (emerged?) 
consensus we seem to be leaving the names of international objects in English, 
with any additional language welcome to be added as a name:xyz (language 
suffix) tag.  We can also use the int_name tag, which our wiki has documented 
for quite some time as "International does not (necessarily) mean English."  I 
remain (barely) in a listening mode to other suggestions, but they are 
disappearing from this conversation like the light in the sky after sunset.

"It is what it is."  (It's a settled matter).

SteveA
California

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via talk




25 Feb 2020, 19:15 by to...@disroot.org:

> W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:
>  
>
>> Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.
>>
>> We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
>> English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.
>
> Almost no one can learn English as opposedto Esperanto, almost no one 
> can understand its illogicalpronunciation, multi-part verbs, its 
> vagueness.
>
Are you serious?

"almost no one" is a weird claim,
given that over 2 000 000 000 people
managed.

Over 600 000 000 did this as a
foreign language.

(And it is not like pronunciation is
used on text-only mailing list!)___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Maarten Deen


On 2020-02-25 19:15, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:



PS: given the choice, I'd probably rather learn Klingon than
Esperanto,
that might give me better chances to find someone I could talk to in

that language after all I assume, esp. in the tech/geek sector ...

 Viaj personaj elektoj ne interesiĝas min. Ĉu mi altrudas al aliaj
homoj lerni la polan? Ĉesu altrudi al mi lerni la anglan.
I'm not interested in your personal choices. Do I force other people
to learn Polish? Stop making me learn English.


You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn 
Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than 
Esperanto. Then what is the more logical choice?
If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting every 
mail into a translator, than why not do that?
Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't 
force other people to use a translator just because you choose not to 
write in English.


Maarten

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Yves

This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo of using 
an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words spent off of this 
matter, this status quo is slowly reaching consensus, keep on!
Yves ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects


right, looks like we keep focusing on the pointless point.

On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn 
it than to learn English.


I doubt this.  you don't need Shakespeare or Chaucer for technical 
English communication.  just use a pidgin, easy enough. hardly any 
grammar.  you can even forget about articles.  poor native speakers, who 
have to cope with us!


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
I just want everyone on the international list to use a comfortable 
language


I *am* comfortable with English, thank you for your consideration and 
effort.  if you want to know, I am comfortable, in decreasing order, 
with Italian, Spanish, English, Dutch, French, German and possibly 
Portuguese, (Maarten: I'm counting Dutch and German as if it was two 
languages. :-P en dat grappig taaltje van jou, is het Limburgs?  zeer 
schattig hoor!)  But Esperanto? no, I can't read it, I tend to just skip 
to the end of the text.  Polish?  I made an attempt, it's by far the 
most difficult language I have ever met.


automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail 
terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the 
reach of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.


so if you are concerned about comfort, you have my personal preferences.

oh, right, sorry, I'm just one, not the community.

do we want to choose a language here?  imagine we do that, and we use 
the Schutze method for it?  do you think the outcome won't be English?  
really?


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:

This is the dictatorship of the majority.


call it as you prefer.  I guess this is how the democratic decision 
process works.  majority dictates.  unless you prefer oligarchies 
(minority dictates), or theocracies (priests dictate), or plutocracies 
(money dictates)…  right, you call OSM a plutocracy, since the people 
who finance it are deciding for the rest.  but, hey, they are paying, 
and we may use it gratis, and even make money with it.  I don't feel 
like complaining you know!


MF

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:
> Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.
>
> We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
> English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.
>
> We are using English here primarily because
> OSM was started in England,
> and there was no good reason to change
> language of this mailing list.
OSM komenciĝis en Anglujo, sed iĝis la mapo de la tuta mondo. Preskaŭ
neniu povas finlerni la anglan lingvon kontraŭe al Esperanto, preskaŭ
neniu povas kompreni ĝian nelogikan elparolon, plurpartajn verbojn, ĝian
malprecizon.
OSM started in England, but became the map of the entire world. Almost
no one can learn English as opposed to Esperanto, almost no one can
understand its illogical pronunciation, multi-part verbs, its vagueness.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
>
> > EN Is there any major international list to discuss?
> > Why don't you go to the "Talk-GB" or "Talk-us" list to discuss in
> English?
>
> Because these are more for topics local to those countries. 
Do tiu ĉi listo ankaŭ estas loka listo por anglalingvanoj, ĉu ekzistas
internacia listo por pridiskuti OSM-rilatajn aferojn?
So this list is also a local list for English speakers, is there an
international list to discuss OSM related issues?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> It's just what has been proven to work "least bad". Does that give
> some an unfair advantage? For sure. But would raising the bar for
> everyone by demanding "You have to learn this language, that you
> almost for certain have not learned before, to even start to
> participate" be "less bad"? I'm far from convinced ... 
Ĝi funkcias senespere, infanoj lernas ĝin por kelkaj jaroj kaj ne povas
lerte ĝin uzi. Eblas samtempe uzi du lingvojn: primitivan anglan kaj
justan Esperanton, post kelkaj monatoj/jaroj homoj certe elektu la
Esperanton.
It works out of desperation, kids learn it for a few years and can't use
it. It is possible to use two languages at once: primitive English and
just Esperanto, after a few months / years people should definitely
choose Esperanto.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> PS: given the choice, I'd probably rather learn Klingon than Esperanto,
> that might give me better chances to find someone I could talk to in
> that language after all I assume, esp. in the tech/geek sector ... 
Viaj personaj elektoj ne interesiĝas min. Ĉu mi altrudas al aliaj homoj
lerni la polan? Ĉesu altrudi al mi lerni la anglan.
I'm not interested in your personal choices. Do I force other people to
learn Polish? Stop making me learn English.
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Andreas Vilén

There’s Incubus, from the 60’s with William Shatner in the main role. According 
to myth, that is what made Gene Roddenberry decide it would be a horrible 
desicion to make Star Trek in Esperanto.

/Andreas

Skickat från min iPhone

> 25 feb. 2020 kl. 18:06 skrev Tomek :
> 

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via talk




25 Feb 2020, 18:03 by to...@disroot.org:

> W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
>  
>
>> I don't  think so. 
>>  The common language on this list is English, as the common  language on 
>> talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I  go to talk-pl 
>> and complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is  not using a 
>> language I can understand. 
>>  It doesn't work that way. 
>>
> EO Ĉu ekzistas ia ĉefa internacia listo por diskuti? Kial vi ne irasal la 
> listo “Talk-GB” aŭ “Talk-us” por diskuti en la angla?
>  > EN Is there any major international list to discuss?
>
Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.

We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.

We are using English here primarily because
OSM was started in England,
and there was no good reason to change
language of this mailing list.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> I don't think so.
> The common language on this list is English, as the common language on
> talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I go to talk-pl
> and complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is not using a
> language I can understand.
> It doesn't work that way.
EO Ĉu ekzistas ia ĉefa internacia listo por diskuti? Kial vi ne iras al
la listo “Talk-GB” aŭ “Talk-us” por diskuti en la angla?
EN Is there any major international list to discuss? Why don't you go to
the "Talk-GB" or "Talk-us" list to discuss in English?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> Can you back that statement up?
> And it does not work for me at this point. I already know English, so
> that time has been spent. I have to invest time learning Esperanto.
> And even more: Esperanto is very much an artificial language for me. I
> can watch movies in English and use that to hone my knowledge of the
> language. If there are movies in Esperanto (probably lip-synced which
> is horrible) I have to go out of my way to get them. 
EO Bedaŭrinde mankas filmoj en Esperanto, nur kursoj kaj libroj
ekzistas. Vi parolas pri homoj kiuj jam dediĉis multan tempon por ĝin
lerni aŭ pri denaskaj parolantoj, bonvolu pensi pri homoj kiuj ne scias
la anglan, por tiuj homoj EO estas la pli bona solvo.
EN Unfortunately there are no movies in Esperanto, only courses and
books exist. You talk about people who have spent a lot of time learning
it or native speakers, please think of people who do not know English,
for those people EO is the best solution.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> Good, dus ich ken in mien eige taal kalle? Versteis tich mich dan nog
> altied? En wat als het get lastigere zinne weare?
>
> I'm certain it is not benificial at all if everyone starts using their
> mother language on this list. 
EO Vi probable uzas ian slangon, do tial aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne povas
traduki ĝin ĝuste. Uzo de naciaj lingvoj estas egala, sed ne oportuna,
la plej bona solvo estu uzi internacian lingvon (Esperanton aŭ
Interlingvaon).
EN You probably use some kind of slang, so auto-translators can't
translate it correctly. The use of national languages is the same, but
not practical, the best solution is to use an international language
(Esperanto or Interlingue).

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:26, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> In a former company I worked for we had a clear "The burden shall
> be on the writer, not the readers" principle. As the number of
> readers is usually much larger then the number of writers (typically
> one) of a message, that minimizes total effort and overhead (and
> this is not limited to language choice and translations alone).
> I would say this principle should apply here, to
EO Mi estas la leganto, do bonvolu skribi en mia lingvo (pola) aŭ en
internacia lingvo, kiun mi scias (Esperanto).
EN I am the reader, so please write in my language (Polish) or in an
international language I know (Esperanto).
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Maarten Deen


On 2020-02-25 15:36, Tomek wrote:


 Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?


I don't think so.
The common language on this list is English, as the common language on 
talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I go to talk-pl and 
complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is not using a language I 
can understand.

It doesn't work that way.


Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn
it than to learn English.


Can you back that statement up?
And it does not work for me at this point. I already know English, so 
that time has been spent. I have to invest time learning Esperanto. And 
even more: Esperanto is very much an artificial language for me. I can 
watch movies in English and use that to hone my knowledge of the 
language. If there are movies in Esperanto (probably lip-synced which is 
horrible) I have to go out of my way to get them.



Interlingua is a better choice because it tries to be understood by
users of Romance languages.


That may well be, but the fact it never took on says something, doesn't 
it?



why do other users of this list disrespect me?


I don't disrepect you, I'm just ignoring posts in a language I can not 
understand.



People, let's try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek,
please help us here, do choose a "top 3" language in your
communications.

 This is the dictatorship of the majority.


Good, dus ich ken in mien eige taal kalle? Versteis tich mich dan nog 
altied? En wat als het get lastigere zinne weare?


I'm certain it is not benificial at all if everyone starts using their 
mother language on this list.


Regards,
Maarten

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-25 Thread Hartmut Holzgraefe

On 25.02.20 15:36, Tomek wrote:
> Everyone uses the same learning
> costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.

I'd assume that the cost argument doesn't hold, it's going to be more
easy for Europeans than for e.g. Chinese or Japanese. It starts with
the letters used, which give people that have grown up with a a 
Latinbased language a first head start, and it continues with the vocabulary

that is also favoring (west) European learners. (Can't say anything
about the grammer, I'm not that deep into it, but I assume the same
is true for that, too)

> Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
> translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?

I'm doing customer support for a world wide customer base on a daily
basis, and while automatic translators got quite a bit better over 
time,we try to encourage our customers to write to us in English. Auto 
translated texts give you a rough idea what the text is about, but

they may fail you completely when it comes to details, or common
phrases, totally failing to transport the actual message.

We use it as a last resort when someone refuses to write to us in
English, but it is a double edged sword.

Contractually we actually enforce the use of English, even when having
someone on the team having the same native language as the customer.

Translations are used on a "best effort" basis, but without guarantees.
Also when replying to auto-translated requests, our replies will have
lots of "if I understood you corretly ..." parts.

While it would be nice to have an universal language that doesn't
favor any nationality, like Latin used to be in the middle ages in
Europe, it's just not practical. For practical purposes it's either
English, or Chinese, with Spanish probably coming up as third.

And as others have already pointed out: when you look at the combined
numbers of people speaking a specific language as either first *or*
additional language, English probably wins (especially if you count
India in as English speaking country, to which some may object), and
as far as I can tell that number is growing the fastest, too.

So while I don't mind seeing someone who indeed doesn't understand
English trying to participate here in their native language, and
relying on automatic translations in that case as its the only
alternative, I don't get the point of someone who's clearly able
to communicate in English trying to make things harder for
everybody else by insisting on using their first language.
(Or did I get fooled by rather good auto translations here?)

In a former company I worked for we had a clear "The burden shall
be on the writer, not the readers" principle. As the number of
readers is usually much larger then the number of writers (typically
one) of a message, that minimizes total effort and overhead (and
this is not limited to language choice and translations alone).
I would say this principle should apply here, too.

PS: While I like the general idea of choosing a common language
like Esperanto, I know that it will fail the same way as "we
should all use an open source word processor". People will still
send you .doc or .docx ... it is a fight you can't win ...

--
hartmut

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

W dniu 20-02-24 o 02:05, Mario Frasca pisze:
> se proprio insisti a non voler scrivere in Inglese, usa il Francese o
> il Tedesco, cioè un'altra lingua internazionale riconosciuta
> dall'Unione Europea, Unione di cui fa parte anche la Polonia, o
> adattati a che ciascuno ti risponda nella lingua che preferisce,
> facendo di tutto ciò una conversazione fra sordi. 
Why am I forced to use difficult languages of other nations, why can't I
use the easy language of Esperanto? Everyone uses the same learning
costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 11:17, Maarten Deen pisze:
> I can not agree more with this message. I am not even trying to read
> the Polish and Esperanto mails. Yes, I am to lazy to put them in a
> translator because I think it is absolutely unnecessary. I am also not
> posting in Dutch because that will pose the same burden on others and
> I don't think that is the best action to do. 
Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:21, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
> there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem 
> that English is the language which has most people able to understand it 
> (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second 
> language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall 
> back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long way.
> Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other 
> languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that 
> language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the 
> neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian 
> ...) 
Using the criterion of practicality:
Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn it
than to learn English.
Interlingua is a better choice because it tries to be understood by
users of Romance languages.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 14:37, Mario Frasca pisze:
> As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the
> use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly
> applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include
> English, or only marginally so), and one about the communication
> language in this list.  This second point has attracted most
> attention, and has made it hard to keep a constructive discussion
> about the first. 
And here lies the problem, do I force others to use Polish or Esperanto
in the discussion? NO! I just want everyone on the international list to
use a comfortable language and try to understand others through
translators. I try to be kind when writing in English, why do other
users of this list disrespect me?

W dniu 20-02-24 o 14:37, Mario Frasca pisze:
> People, let's try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek,
> please help us here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications. 
This is the dictatorship of the majority.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:53, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
> continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
> specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
> the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
> rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
> surrounding by a large number of language areas.
This tag has already been developed. Countries are marked as relations
with the tag "default_language", the program would then have to download
the tag "name:LANGUAGE" from the sea and display it on the coast. The
problem is that the seas are marked on the map as points.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:53, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
> since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
> user can pick the language in that case.
This is my goal, what do I need to do to make changes to OSM legally?
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-24 Thread Mario Frasca


On 24/02/2020 06:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
tag for the Baltic Sea.

It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
surrounding by a large number of language areas.

For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
user can pick the language in that case.

- Joseph Eisenberg


As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the 
use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly 
applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include English, 
or only marginally so), and one about the communication language in this 
list.  This second point has attracted most attention, and has made it 
hard to keep a constructive discussion about the first.


2: my writing back in French, and hints to Tomek to do the same, or to 
choose German, was a way to shush away the language fight, and keep the 
discussion going.  I finally switched to Italian in despair, because I 
wanted Tomek to feel like I feel looking at his two hardly intelligible 
niche languages, none of them listed in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers, 
nor appearing in the 1997 George Weber’s list of 10 most influential 
languages.


3: I think there's a third point related to internationalization, not at 
this surface language level, but deeper, when presenting concepts behind 
concrete tags in a way that would be more recognizable by non-European 
mappers.  (I include into "European" everybody with roots in Europe.)  I 
think this is a relevant point, not least because I keep seeing edits in 
Panama changing `unclassified` to `track` only because (this is my 
interpretation): the road is unpaved, people prefer looking at pictures 
than reading, the picture for the agricultural `track` looks much more 
recognizable than the one for the `unclassified` road, possibly and 
marginally because `unclassified` does not ring any bell outside the UK.


1: at some point in the discussion, I myself suggested adding a 
`label:=` tag, so that larger water masses would have 
several names, each positioned near the corresponding language area.


1: also someone (sorry for not looking it up) mentioned "the" map having 
become "the map" not intentionally, but as if by chance or 
misunderstanding.  OSM is a database, and when looking at 
openstreetmap.org you see a possible rendering, in the default 
language.  look at openstreetmap.fr and it will be in French, or 
openstreetmap.de/karte.html for German.


1: actually, please think about the three above examples (.org, .fr, 
.de), and you might see that indeed the `name` tag is out of place, 
since "the map" does not exist outside of the example running on 
openstreetmap.org.  But, Tomek, I would start by making the point there, 
and suggest their renderer to be fixed, and to be heard you need to 
write in English, since you would be speaking to British people.


Tomek, you have a point in what you write, but please have yourself 
heard, and not just experienced as nasty and conflictive.  People, let's 
try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek, please help us 
here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications.


https://web.archive.org/web/20110927062910/http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

ciao, MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-24 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

> it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body
of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English
as an official language, should contain the English name.

I agree. Unfortunately the message has been confused by the poor presentation.

It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
tag for the Baltic Sea.

It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
surrounding by a large number of language areas.

For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
user can pick the language in that case.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/24/20, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>>
>> We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
>> he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
>> to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.
>
>
>
> there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem
> that English is the language which has most people able to understand it
> (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second
> language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall
> back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long
> way.
> Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other
> languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that
> language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the
> neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian
> ...)
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-24 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
> he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
> to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.

there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem that 
English is the language which has most people able to understand it (shortly 
before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second language). From a 
practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall back to English. This 
could change in the future, but it would be a long way.
Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other 
languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that language 
isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the neighboring 
countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian ...) 

Cheers Martin 

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-24 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 23.02.20 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote:
> This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme

It is tediuos but not without merit.

Yes the project was founded by white Englishmen but in other departments
we're trying to extend our reach and make sure that we are also
interesting for non-white non-English non-men. It is not, in principle,
wrong to question some of our existing assumptions, values, or decisions.

I think that while in this particular case the question was asked by
someone on a mission to propagate an aspirational "international
language", it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body
of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English
as an official language, should contain the English name.

We're currently using English in such situations "by default"; none of
our existing written policies can explain why we do that.

If the result of this discussion is an agreement in the community that
using the English name in the "name" tag whenever a feature is bordered
by two or more countries using different languages (or whatever) is "the
rigth thing to do in OSM", then the discussion will have been valuable.

We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-24 Thread Maarten Deen


On 2020-02-23 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote:

This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but
as that seems to be the order of the day:


I can not agree more with this message. I am not even trying to read the 
Polish and Esperanto mails. Yes, I am to lazy to put them in a 
translator because I think it is absolutely unnecessary. I am also not 
posting in Dutch because that will pose the same burden on others and I 
don't think that is the best action to do.
I'm sorry if you feel excluded because you can not or refuse read 
english or think you are being oppressed. I feel excluded in every 
project that is done in Chinese and Japanese. But if they feel that is 
the best language to communicate in, than it is not for me.


The OSM wiki has been translated to many many languages but the main 
page in Esperanto is short at best and many pages have no Esperanto 
translation. Maybe your efforts are better directed to creating some 
international (for you meaning: non-English) traction there.


Regards,
Maarten

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-23 Thread Mario Frasca


scusami Tomek, ma perché scrivi in polacco quando nessuno ti capisce?

vuoi discutere (ti prego, cerca il suo significato etimologico), o vuoi 
… come si dice educatamente … "annoiare" ?  (in effetti sono tre le 
parole che mi vengono in mente, e che esprimono con maggior precisione 
il concetto.)


se proprio insisti a non voler scrivere in Inglese, usa il Francese o il 
Tedesco, cioè un'altra lingua internazionale riconosciuta dall'Unione 
Europea, Unione di cui fa parte anche la Polonia, o adattati a che 
ciascuno ti risponda nella lingua che preferisce, facendo di tutto ciò 
una conversazione fra sordi.


while I do think that some terms and images and explanations in the wiki 
should be adapted to other realities (see Highways for Africa), I accept 
the consequences of the fact "OSM is a British foundation".  too bad?  I 
don't know.  and it doesn't matter, it's just as it is.  if I didn't 
accept that, I would go mapping somewhere else.


ave atque vale

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-23 Thread stevea

On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> 
> ...a sam promujesz jakiś nielogiczny twór promujący tylko jeden naród - 
> Anglików.
(...you promote some illogical creation promoting only one nation - the 
English.)

This simply is not true.  The "creation" is perfectly logical, as the origin 
story of OSM beginning in England is repeated / explained yet again to positive 
effect, and it does not promote "only one nation," rather, it promotes one 
language.  A language spoken as a second language in more countries than any 
other:  what might be called a de facto lingua franca around the world, 
although I and others certainly recognize how this might be seen as hegemonic 
and / or even more offensive, as in "language imperialism" (it isn't, but many 
recognize how it is easy for many to see it that way).  What is meant by "de 
facto" is that it is "in fact" used so extensively:  well over half the 
countries on Earth, with over 1.2 billion speakers — 1 out of 6 humans and 
easily the most spoken and widespread language on the planet.  (That is simply 
a fact).  You might say Mandarin and Cantonese are spoken by about as many, but 
really, largely speaking only in China, and so not nearly as dispersed all over 
the globe as is English.  (This may change in the future with China's apparent 
21st-century ascendency, but let's not get ahead of ourselves).

Tomek, it should be as clear to you now as it is to many of us here that your 
use of Esperanto and Polish, as well as your insistence that widespread usage 
of English in OSM diminish to your specification has failed to gain traction.  
May we ask you quite directly to cease with this campaign of yours, please?  I 
agree with Alan M. that it has become tedious, if not actually beyond that.

SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-23 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-02-23 o 23:38, Alan Mackie pisze:
> This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but
> as that seems to be the order of the day:
> OSM was founded in London, ALL the keys are in English which is used
> far more as a means of international exchange than a niche
> euro-centric language invented in the late 19th century. It makes more
> sense for the 'fallback language" to be in English than something with
> no non-bilingual native speakers and a miniscule number of people
> using it as a second language. Lofty aspirations alone do not make
> something common, shared or universal, it actually has to be used too,
> and what you are suggesting is used so little as to be a rounding error.
> If you want the whole map in something more "common" then feel free to
> download the database, translate ALL the tags and relaunch your forked
> version. It won't cost very much in hosting because no one will use
> it. Nearly everyone else seems happy with the status quo and those
> that aren't are willing to look for consensus and follow the usual
> processes, not just repeat themselves endlessly without making any new
> points.
> Mechanical edits no not need to be automated, they just need to be
> mindless or done with little thought. I would link to video on this,
> but alas it is in English and I will not expend the effort finding
> something you will likely refuse on principle.
>
Rozmowa jest powtarzalna, masz rację, że:
OSM został założony w Londynie - ale nie jest mapą Londynu, tylko całego
świata;
wszystkie klucze są w języku angielskim - czy ja coś pisałem o zmianie
kluczy, nie rozmowa była o domyślnej nazwie mórz i kontynentów.

Narzekasz na europocentryczność Esperanta, a sam promujesz jakiś
nielogiczny twór promujący tylko jeden naród - Anglików.

Nie masz jakichkolwiek argumentów przeciw mojej edycji. Nie będzie ona
ani bezmyślna, ani wykonana bez zastanowienia.
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-23 Thread Alan Mackie

This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but as
that seems to be the order of the day:
OSM was founded in London, ALL the keys are in English which is used far
more as a means of international exchange than a niche euro-centric
language invented in the late 19th century. It makes more sense for the
'fallback language" to be in English than something with no non-bilingual
native speakers and a miniscule number of people using it as a second
language. Lofty aspirations alone do not make something common, shared or
universal, it actually has to be used too, and what you are suggesting is
used so little as to be a rounding error.
If you want the whole map in something more "common" then feel free to
download the database, translate ALL the tags and relaunch your forked
version. It won't cost very much in hosting because no one will use it.
Nearly everyone else seems happy with the status quo and those that aren't
are willing to look for consensus and follow the usual processes, not just
repeat themselves endlessly without making any new points.
Mechanical edits no not need to be automated, they just need to be mindless
or done with little thought. I would link to video on this, but alas it is
in English and I will not expend the effort finding something you will
likely refuse on principle.

On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 at 21:35, Tomek  wrote:

> W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
>
> Estas maloportune, ke estas facile aldoni erarajn datumojn al OSM, sed por
> forigi ilin bezonas fari specialan paĝon ĉe vikio.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
>
> Mi volas redakti ĉiujn punktojn individue, konsiderante ĉiun ŝanĝon, do
> mia redakto ne kvalifikos kiel “aŭtomata redakto”.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 07:09, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>
> completely remove this marker.
>
> I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.
>
> Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
> polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
> etikedon."
>
> Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
> translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
> next to none country, completely remove this tag."
>
> (Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
> with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
> well.)
>
> Aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne funkcias bone, do anstataŭ uzi ilin, ni ĉiu parolu
> en komuna internacia lingvo, tia lingvo aperis en la jaro 1887.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 09:47, Frederik Ramm pisze:
>
> I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
> think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
> tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
> international thing in English.
>
> In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
> English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
> fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
> battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.
>
> Uzeblo? Mi diris tion antaŭe: redaktiloj iD k JOSM, aplikaĵo OsmAnd (kaj
> probable aliaj programoj) uzas tradukitajn etikedojn “name:LINGVO”. Mi ne
> havus problemon, se ĉiuj nomoj en OSM estu en la pola lingvo.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-23 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
Estas maloportune, ke estas facile aldoni erarajn datumojn al OSM, sed
por forigi ilin bezonas fari specialan paĝon ĉe vikio.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
Mi volas redakti ĉiujn punktojn individue, konsiderante ĉiun ŝanĝon, do
mia redakto ne kvalifikos kiel “aŭtomata redakto”.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 07:09, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
> completely remove this marker.
>
> I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.
>
> Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
> polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
> etikedon."
>
> Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
> translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
> next to none country, completely remove this tag."
>
> (Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
> with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
> well.)
Aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne funkcias bone, do anstataŭ uzi ilin, ni ĉiu
parolu en komuna internacia lingvo, tia lingvo aperis en la jaro 1887.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 09:47, Frederik Ramm pisze:
> I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
> think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
> tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
> international thing in English.
>
> In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
> English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
> fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
> battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.
Uzeblo? Mi diris tion antaŭe: redaktiloj iD k JOSM, aplikaĵo OsmAnd (kaj
probable aliaj programoj) uzas tradukitajn etikedojn “name:LINGVO”. Mi
ne havus problemon, se ĉiuj nomoj en OSM estu en la pola lingvo.
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-18 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 17.02.20 21:43, Tomek wrote:
> Object 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
> amenity = bench
> name = Bench
> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
> what's on the ground" rule?

Yes, I think it is ok, mainly because benches don't usually have names
and if they do, the name will not be "Bench". (This applies to removing
the name while you're mapping in the area anyway - if you were to search
for all amenity=bench name=Bench and remove the name, that would be a
mechanical edit in need of prior discussion.)

Some benches could have names that might perhaps not always be marked by
a sign, just as e.g. some very old trees have names. It is unusual for a
bench or tree to have a name but not generally wrong.

> Object 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
> Mapped in OSM as:
> place = ocean
> name = Pacific Ocean
> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?

It is a different case from the above (to be comparable with the above
case the name would have to be "Ocean").

I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
international thing in English.

In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-17 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.

I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.

Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
etikedon."

Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
next to none country, completely remove this tag."

(Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
well.)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/18/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
>
> Also, the correct way to propose automatically changing a large number
> of features is to follow the "Automated Edits code of conduct":
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
>
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
>
> "You should normally document your proposed edit at an
> English-language wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where
> username is the OSM user name of the account that you will be using to
> perform the edits - think about this now so that you don't have to
> rename the page later), and add it to Category:Automated edits log.
>
> Your documentation should state:
>
> Who is making the change (preferably your real name and how to contact
> you, ideally e-mail address)
> Your motivation for making the change and why it is important
> A detailed description of the algorithm you will use to decide which
> objects are changed how
> Information about any consultation that you have conducted, with links
> to mailing list/forum posts or Wiki discussion pages
> When the change was made, or how frequently it is going to be repeated
> Information on how to "opt out"
>
> Please read the rest of the information at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
> prior to proceeding.
>
> (FYI, I am personally in favor of removing the English name=* tags for
> continents and oceans, and perhaps for many of the seas, but it's
> important to get consensus about a major edit like this)
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On 2/18/20, Tomek  wrote:
>> W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
>>> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
 - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
 completely remove this marker.
>>>
>>> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
>>> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> EO
>> Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.
>>
>> Objekto 1:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
>> Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
>> amenity=bench
>> name=Bench
>> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
>> tion, kion estas sur la tero”?
>>
>> Objekto 2:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
>> Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
>> Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
>> Mapigita en OSM kiel:
>> place=ocean
>> name=Pacific Ocean
>> Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
>> do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
>> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?
>>
>>
>> EN (machine translation)
>> I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.
>>
>> Object 1:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
>> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
>> amenity = bench
>> name = Bench
>> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
>> what's on the ground" rule?
>>
>> Object 2:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
>> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
>> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
>> Mapped in OSM as:
>> place = ocean
>> name = Pacific Ocean
>> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
>> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
>> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?
>>
>>
>>
>> W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>>>
>>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I
>>> will
>>> completely remove this marker.
>>>
>>>
>>> Warning, without giving my

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-17 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
problems.

Also, the correct way to propose automatically changing a large number
of features is to follow the "Automated Edits code of conduct":
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct

This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
for editing all the seas and oceans.

"You should normally document your proposed edit at an
English-language wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where
username is the OSM user name of the account that you will be using to
perform the edits - think about this now so that you don't have to
rename the page later), and add it to Category:Automated edits log.

Your documentation should state:

Who is making the change (preferably your real name and how to contact
you, ideally e-mail address)
Your motivation for making the change and why it is important
A detailed description of the algorithm you will use to decide which
objects are changed how
Information about any consultation that you have conducted, with links
to mailing list/forum posts or Wiki discussion pages
When the change was made, or how frequently it is going to be repeated
Information on how to "opt out"

Please read the rest of the information at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
prior to proceeding.

(FYI, I am personally in favor of removing the English name=* tags for
continents and oceans, and perhaps for many of the seas, but it's
important to get consensus about a major edit like this)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/18/20, Tomek  wrote:
> W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
>> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
>>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>>> completely remove this marker.
>>
>> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
>> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>>
>> Steve
>>
> EO
> Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.
>
> Objekto 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
> amenity=bench
> name=Bench
> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
> tion, kion estas sur la tero”?
>
> Objekto 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
> Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
> Mapigita en OSM kiel:
> place=ocean
> name=Pacific Ocean
> Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
> do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?
>
>
> EN (machine translation)
> I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.
>
> Object 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
> amenity = bench
> name = Bench
> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
> what's on the ground" rule?
>
> Object 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
> Mapped in OSM as:
> place = ocean
> name = Pacific Ocean
> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?
>
>
>
> W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>>
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>> completely remove this marker.
>>
>>
>> Warning, without giving my opinion, I don't know all involvements.
>> Data should not be lost!
> EO
> Neniuj datumoj perdiĝos, la angla nomo estos en la etikedo “name:en”!
> EN
> No data will be lost, the English name will be labeled "name:en"!
> FR
> Aucune donnée ne sera perdue, le nom anglais sera étiqueté "name:en"!
>

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-17 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>> completely remove this marker.
>
> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>
> Steve
>
EO
Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.

Objekto 1:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
amenity=bench
name=Bench
Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
tion, kion estas sur la tero”?

Objekto 2:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
Mapigita en OSM kiel:
place=ocean
name=Pacific Ocean
Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?

EN (machine translation)
I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.

Object 1:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
amenity = bench
name = Bench
Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
what's on the ground" rule?

Object 2:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
Mapped in OSM as:
place = ocean
name = Pacific Ocean
But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?

W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>
> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
> completely remove this marker.
>
>  
> Warning, without giving my opinion, I don't know all involvements.
> Data should not be lost!
EO
Neniuj datumoj perdiĝos, la angla nomo estos en la etikedo “name:en”!
EN
No data will be lost, the English name will be labeled "name:en"!
FR
Aucune donnée ne sera perdue, le nom anglais sera étiqueté "name:en"!
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-15 Thread Mario Frasca

Per piacere, non farlo. Non è questa la conclusione della discussione 
che si è tenuta qui. Sono stati espressi pareri, e la discussione si è 
esaurita, credo perché troppo distanti le posizioni dei partecipanti.


Non, je t'en prie, ne fais pas ça. Ça n'est pas du tout la conclusion de 
la discussion ténu ici. On a présenté ses positions, sans atteindre rien 
plus que la présentation de points de vue très différents.


Sent from a Google-owned 华为 Mobile

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-15 Thread Steve Doerr


On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:

- for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.


Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another mapper's 
contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.


Steve

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-02-15 Thread Tomek

EO
La diskuto silentiĝis, do mi skribas denove kion mi planas fari:
- por maroj kiuj apudas al iu(j) lando(j), ŝanĝi la etikedon “name” por
enhavi nomojn en oficialaj lingvoj de ĉiuj apudaj landoj, jes, mi scias,
ke tiu nomo povas esti tre longa;
- por kontinentoj, oceanoj, polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu
lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi etikedon.

Argumentoj por mia redakto:
- la nuna nomo (ofte en la angla lingvo) kontraŭas al la regulo ke “nomo
estu tia kiu estas sur la tero”;
- OSM ne estas ilo por politiko, por disvastigi iun ajn idearon (ekz.
anglan imperiismon).



PL
Dyskusja ucichła, więc piszę jeszcze raz co zamierzam zrobić:
- dla mórz graniczących z pewnymi państwami, zmienię etykietę “name” aby
zawierała nazwy w oficjalnych językach wszystkich sąsiadujących państw –
jestem świadomy tego, że tak powstała nazwa może być bardzo długa, jako
alternatywę można usunąć nazwę całkowicie;
- dla kontynentów, oceanów, biegunów i mórz graniczących z żadnym
państwem, całkowicie usunę ten znacznik.

Argumenty za moją edycją:
- obecna nazwa (zwykle w języku angielskim) przeczy regule “nazwa
powinna być taka jak na ziemi”;
- OSM nie jest narzędziem do prowadzenia polityki, do szerzenia
jakiejkolwiek ideologii (np. angielskiego imperializmu)



EN (automatic translation)
The discussion has died down, so I write again what I'm going to do:
- for seas bordering certain States, I will change the "name" label so
that it contains names in the official languages of all neighboring
States-I know that this way the resulting name can be very long,
alternatively you can delete the name completely;
- for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.

Arguments for my edit:
- the current name (usually in English) contradicts the rule " the name
must be the same as on earth”;
- OSM is not a tool for conducting politics, for spreading any ideology
(for example, English imperialism)



FR (traduction automatique)
La discussion s'est calmée, alors j'écris à nouveau ce que je vais faire:
- pour les mers bordant certains États, je vais changer l'étiquette
"name" pour qu'elle contienne les noms dans les langues officielles de
tous les États voisins - je sais que le nom ainsi obtenu peut être très
long, sinon vous pouvez supprimer le nom complètement;
- pour les continents, les océans, les pôles et les mers bordant
n'importe quel état, je vais supprimer complètement ce marqueur.

Arguments pour mon édition:
- le nom actuel (généralement en anglais) est contraire à la règle " le
nom doit être comme sur terre”;
- L'OSM n'est pas un outil pour la conduite de la politique, pour la
diffusion d'une idéologie (par exemple, l'impérialisme anglais)
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-16 Thread stevea

On Jan 16, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> La angla lingvo estas plago de la nuntempa mondo

(The English language is a plague / scourge of the contemporary world).

While I strive to accommodate (and often do) and I resonate well with 
Frederik's pleas to be pragmatic, avoid zealotry and "the usual language on 
this list is English," I can't help but find highly offensive calling my native 
language "plague de la nuntempa mondo."  (Ironic is that I speak some Polish 
and Esperanto as well, but find them to be inappropriate languages here).

I will say that phrase one more time:  "highly offensive."

Tomek, of course I see your point(s), but as my mother says, "you catch more 
flies with honey than you do with vinegar."  Please stop offending this list's 
readers with your opinions, especially as they contain insults to their 
language — that is wholly uncalled for.  I sometimes say to people, "thank you 
for your opinions."  With you, here and now, I do not.

SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-16 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-12 o 22:25, Alan Mackie pisze:
> The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in
> London in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the
> main tags are themselves written in English, the official wording of
> the license is in English, the primary documentation is in English,
> the historical discussions about standard practice, most of the
> tools,  etc. etc. etc.. Changing the 'façade' on international objects
> will not change this underlying fact, and I don't think there is good
> enough a reason to.
>
> OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine
> translated into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have
> to do is fork it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use,
> especially if you choose a niche constructed language that never
> really caught on.
>
> Meanwhile, a great number of international endeavours are currently
> conducted in English, it has become the Lingua Franca for many things
> now that the original Lingua Franca has gone the way of the Dodo. It
> also has the advantage that it can be expressed with a set of
> characters that is supported by just about every computing device you
> are likely to encounter worldwide without special hardware. Values
> have to support a wider array of characters, but in every case I can
> think of: 'local character set' + ASCII should get you what you need
> to contribute to the database, even if you have lots of regional
> subtags. It will also allow visitors to enter everything except name
> if they can't read the script on the sign, but do know what an object is.
>
> I don't think it makes sense for the main tagging scheme to change
> language and as long as that is true I don't think it makes sense to
> change the name tags on international objects either.
>
PL
Nie rozumiem jaki słoń, jaki pokój?

Angielski jest przekleństwem dziesiejszego świata, uniemożliwia sprawną
komunikację i faworyzuje pewne narody. Język angielski może i jest
popularny, ale ta popularność nie wynika z jego cech, ale tylko i
wyłącznie z potęgi gospodarczej Wielkiej Brytanii i USA, czas już zacząć
korzystać z języka PRAWDZIWIE MIĘDZYNARODOWEGO.

Esperanto również korzysta z alfabetu łacińskiego, nie rozumiem co masz
na myśli?

Wydaje mi się, że próbujesz sprowadzić moją wypowiedź do absurdu: nie
mam zamiaru zmieniać języka znaczników OSM! Chcę tylko usunąć znacznik
„name” z międzynarodowych obiektów, który jest błędny: nazwa powinna być
w lokalnym języku (to co jest na ziemi), skoro nie ma tabliczki/boi z
napisem „Atlantic Ocean”, to dlaczego ma to być w znaczniku „name”?

EO
Mi ne komprenas, kiu elefanto, kiu ĉambro?

La angla lingvo estas plago de la nuntempa mondo, ĝi malfaciligas efikan
komunikadon kaj favoras kelkajn naciojn. La angla lingvo eble estas
populara, sed tiu populareco rezultas nur pro ekonomia povo de Britujo
kaj Usono, jam estas tempo komenci uzi vere INTERNACIAN LINGVON.

Esperanto ankaŭ uzas la latinan alfabeton, mi ne komprenas pri kio vi
parolas?

Ŝajnas, ke vi volas karikaturi mian eldiron: mi ne volas ŝanĝi lingvon
de OSM-etikedoj! Mi nur volas forigi la etikedon “name” el internaciaj
objektoj, kiu kontraŭas al reguloj de OSM: nomo estu en loka lingvo
(tiu, kiu estas videbla el la tero), do se ne estas tabulo/buo kun la
skribaĵo “Atlantic Ocean”, do kial ĝi estas en la etikedo “name”?
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-16 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-12 o 18:09, Marc Gemis pisze:
> Tomek,
>
> My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
> French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.
>
> But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
> old for that.
> I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
> get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
> this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
> and probably many others.
>
> regards
>
> m.
NL (elektronische vertaler)
Waarom zou iedereen zich aan jou aanpassen en in jouw taal schrijven?
Dit is een internationale lijst, dus laten we schrijven in International
(Esperanto), of proberen het te begrijpen met behulp van elektronische
vertalers. Laten we elkaar respecteren, laten we niet zo egoïstisch zijn.

PL
Dlaczego wszyscy mają się dostosować do Ciebie i pisać w Twoim języku?
To jest międzynarodowa lista, więc piszmy w języku międzynarodowym
(Esperanto), ewentualnie starajmy się zrozumieć używając elektronicznych
tłumaczy. Szanujmy się nawzajem, nie bądźmy tacy samolubni.

EO
Kial vi atendas, ke ĉiuj konformiĝos al ci kaj skribos en cia lingvo?
Tio ĉi estas internacia listo, do ni skribu en internacia lingvo
(Esperanto), eventuale ni provu kompreniĝi per elektronikaj tradukiloj.
Ni respektu reciproke kaj ne estu tiel egoismaj.
<>___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-12 Thread Alan Mackie

>
> if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British,
> there have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly
> looking like English
>

Well one could argue that any English only 'mostly looks like English' we
have enough loanwords that the whole thing's a bit of a mishmash.  I think
OSM has aimed to be worldwide for as long as that has seemed like it might
be practical (I wasn't involved in those days). These influences will
always be felt, we even have tags in American (horror of horrors ). I
think my main point, to the extent that I had one, is that a bit of a
facelift here and there doesn't fundamentally change the underlying bone
structure. It seems a little counterproductive when OSM's every face is a
mask that can be swapped (see openstreetmap.fr, openstreetmap.de etc.) and
we have already written the DNA in "Engl*ish*".

and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon
> language ;-)
>

I suppose that's only fair considering we have had to suffer with the
inferior English translations of Shakespeare. I'm having difficulty
picturing a Klingon lawyer anyway despite being fairly sure they appeared
at one point.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 22:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 12. Jan 2020, at 22:28, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> >
> > The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in
> London in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main
> tags are themselves written in English, the official wording of the license
> is in English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical
> discussions about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc..
> Changing the 'façade' on international objects will not change this
> underlying fact, and I don't think there is good enough a reason to.
>
>
> if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British,
> there have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly
> looking like English
>
>
> >
> > OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated
> into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork
> it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you
> choose a niche constructed language that never really caught on.
>
>
> and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon
> language ;-)
>
> Cheers Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer



sent from a phone

> On 12. Jan 2020, at 22:28, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> 
> The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in London in 
> (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main tags are 
> themselves written in English, the official wording of the license is in 
> English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical discussions 
> about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc.. Changing the 
> 'façade' on international objects will not change this underlying fact, and I 
> don't think there is good enough a reason to.


if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British, there 
have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly looking 
like English 


> 
> OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated into 
> Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork it. I 
> suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you choose a 
> niche constructed language that never really caught on.


and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon language 
;-)

Cheers Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-12 Thread Alan Mackie

The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in London
in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main tags are
themselves written in English, the official wording of the license is in
English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical
discussions about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc..
Changing the 'façade' on international objects will not change this
underlying fact, and I don't think there is good enough a reason to.

OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated
into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork
it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you
choose a niche constructed language that never really caught on.

Meanwhile, a great number of international endeavours are currently
conducted in English, it has become the Lingua Franca for many things now
that the original Lingua Franca has gone the way of the Dodo. It also has
the advantage that it can be expressed with a set of characters that is
supported by just about every computing device you are likely to encounter
worldwide without special hardware. Values have to support a wider array of
characters, but in every case I can think of: 'local character set' + ASCII
should get you what you need to contribute to the database, even if you
have lots of regional subtags. It will also allow visitors to enter
everything except name if they can't read the script on the sign, but do
know what an object is.

I don't think it makes sense for the main tagging scheme to change language
and as long as that is true I don't think it makes sense to change the name
tags on international objects either.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 17:14, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Tomek,
>
> My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
> French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.
>
> But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
> old for that.
> I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
> get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
> this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
> and probably many others.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tomek  wrote:
> >
> > W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
> > >> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> > > Because this is an English-language list.
> > >
> > >> Kial mi devas uzi
> > >> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> > >> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> > >> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> > > I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
> > >
> > > I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to
> answer you when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I
> repeat myself (as do others here):  because this is an English-language
> list.
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > > SteveA
> > EO
> > Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.
> >
> > PL
> > Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-12 Thread Marc Gemis

Tomek,

My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.

But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
old for that.
I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
and probably many others.

regards

m.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tomek  wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
> >> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> > Because this is an English-language list.
> >
> >> Kial mi devas uzi
> >> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> >> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> >> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> > I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
> >
> > I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer 
> > you when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat 
> > myself (as do others here):  because this is an English-language list.
> >
> > Peace,
> > SteveA
> EO
> Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.
>
> PL
> Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-12 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-12 o 13:13, Mario Frasca pisze:
> Bonjour Tomek,
> Je ne comprends pas ta obsession pour le espéranto. Pour moi, c'est
> une langue incompréhensible. Nous sommes dans une liste de courriels
> internationaux, il faut utiliser une langue internationaux. Sinon, ça
> se fait une Babel.
> Les Européens doivent comprendre les trois langues: allemand, anglais,
> français, et écrire une. Laisse toi comprendre pour les Européens,
> s'il te plait.
> Grazie.
> Sent from a Google-owned 华为 Mobile
EO
Mi ne komprenas la obsedon pri la angla lingvo. Ĝi havas preskaŭ neniujn
ecojn por internacia komunikado: tre komplika elparolo, kiu ne kongruas
kun skribo, multaj idiotismoj, plurpartaj verboj (pharsal verbs),
neregularaj verboj, aliaj neregularaĵoj, tre vasta vortprovizo (sed ne
vortfarado), ktp.
Kial mi devas kompreni anglan, germanan kaj francan? Ĉu OSM estas nur
por homoj de (okcidenta kaj eĉ ne tuta) Eŭropo? Kial franclingvanoj ne
lernu mian lingvon (la polan)? Estas preskaŭ neeble por plejparo de
homoj ekposedi tri fremdajn naturajn lingvojn, ĉiu havas multe da
neregularaĵoj. Mi nur batalas por egalaj rajtoj: aŭ ĉiu parolas en sia
lingvo (kaj aliuloj provas kompreni lin per ekz. Google Translate), aŭ
ĉiu parolas en komuna internacia lingvo, kiu estas egale facila por
ĉiuj: Esperanto.

PL
Nie rozumiem tej obsesji odnośnie języka angielskiego. Posiada on prawie
żadne cechy do komunikacji międzynarodowej: bardzo skomplikowana wymowa
niezgodna z pisownią, mnóstwo idiomów, czasowniki złożone, czasowniki
nieregularne, inne nieregularności, obszerne słownictwo (ale nie
słowotwórstwo), itp.
Dlaczego muszę zrozumieć angielski, niemiecki i francuski? Czy OSM jest
tylko dla ludzi z (zachodniej i nawet nie całej) Europy? Dlaczego
Francuzi nie mogą nauczyć się mojego języka (polskiego)? Jest prawie
niemożliwe dla większości ludzi biegle władać trzema językami obcymi,
każdy z nich ma mnóstwo nieregularności, wymaga mnóstwa nauki. Ja tylko
walczę o równe prawa: albo każdy mówi w swoim języku (i druga strona
stara się go zrozumieć używając np. Tłumacza Google), albo mówimy
wszyscy w jednym języku międzynarodowym, który jest równie łatwy dla
wszystkich: Esperanto.

FR
https://esperanto.net/fr/apprenez-lesperanto/

EN
https://esperanto.net/en/learn-esperanto/
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
>> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> Because this is an English-language list.
>
>> Kial mi devas uzi
>> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
>> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
>> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
>
> I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer you 
> when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat myself 
> (as do others here):  because this is an English-language list.
>
> Peace,
> SteveA
EO
Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.

PL
Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
<>___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread stevea

> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?

Because this is an English-language list.

> Kial mi devas uzi
> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?

I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.

I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer you 
when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat myself (as 
do others here):  because this is an English-language list.

Peace,
SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-11 o 23:20, stevea pisze:
> On Jan 11, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Tomek  wrote:
>> EN
>> English fanatics, please read the text: 
>> http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf
> No thank you.  I am not a "fanatic" of my mother tongue, I simply use it 
> along with hundreds of millions or billions of others — um, not all of them 
> HERE, of course, but there are enough English speakers here, and there have 
> been since Day 1, to make it an interesting and informative place to have 
> conversations like this.  Not to mention I am multilingual (though my 
> Esperanto is 35-year-old-rusty).
>
> What I would much rather do is continue discussion on this list in English, 
> as we always have.  It is good discussion, but I don't appreciate being 
> name-called ("fanatic") or told to "go learn a new language."  I mentioned 
> that I was a founding member of my university's Esperanto Club, so I know the 
> reasoning behind why people might want to learn the language.  But I don't 
> believe it was ever meant to be rammed down anybody's throat.  (Which is what 
> that felt like).
>
> Opinions are mine.
>
> Thanks for your understanding and peace to you,
> SteveA
Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas? Kial mi devas uzi
elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?


W dniu 20-01-11 o 23:24, Steve Doerr pisze:
> Please post in English if you want people to understand what you are
> trying to say. Otherwise, feel free to talk to yourself in Esperanto.
https://translate.google.pl/
https://www.bing.com/translator/
https://translate.yandex.com/
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread Steve Doerr

Please post in English if you want people to understand what you are 
trying to say. Otherwise, feel free to talk to yourself in Esperanto.

Steve

On 11/01/2020 22:12, Tomek wrote:

EO
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.
Vi povas paroli en la pola, kiu estas mia denaska lingvo. Mi ne miras, 
ke vi malsukcesis komunikadi per fikcia/arta lingvo kreita por 
prezenti mondon de hobitoj kaj elfoj. Latino taŭgas por nomi speciojn 
kaj por estroj de katolika eklezio. Esperanto fakte estas la plej 
efika maniero por komunikadi kaj ne diskriminacias iun ajn.

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:

This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
tag.
Kiuj lokalaj mapigistoj? Ni parolas pri nomoj de Suda Oceano kaj 
insuloj proksime de Antarkto!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim
at 56° N18°
> > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
Bałtyckie",
> > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
>
>
> > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
>
> For the count, +1 against.
And another +1, against.

Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.

--
Paul

Voĉoj sen klarigo (kaj sen proponita solvo) ne enkalkulas.
-3

PL
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.
Możesz pisać w języku polskim, który jest moim językiem. Nie dziwię 
się, że nie zdołałeś się porozumieć używając fikcyjneko/artystycznego 
języka prezentującego świat hobbitów i elfów. Łacina nadaje się tylko 
do nazywania gatunków i dla szefów Kościoła katolickiego. Esperanto w 
rzeczywistości jest najbardziej efektywnym sposobem na komunikację i 
nie dyskryminuje kogokolwiek. Polecam tekst (pisany przez anglika): 
https://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/util/espglobal/

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:

This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
tag.
Którzy lokalni mapowicze? Mówimy o nazwach mórz Oceanu Południowego i 
wysp w pobliżu Antarktydy!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim
at 56° N18°
> > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
Bałtyckie",
> > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
>
>
> > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
>
> For the count, +1 against.
And another +1, against.

Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.

--
Paul
Głosy bez wyjaśnienia (i bez zaproponowanego rozwiązania) nie wliczają 
się.

-3

EN
English fanatics, please read the text: 
http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread stevea

On Jan 11, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> EN
> English fanatics, please read the text: 
> http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf

No thank you.  I am not a "fanatic" of my mother tongue, I simply use it along 
with hundreds of millions or billions of others — um, not all of them HERE, of 
course, but there are enough English speakers here, and there have been since 
Day 1, to make it an interesting and informative place to have conversations 
like this.  Not to mention I am multilingual (though my Esperanto is 
35-year-old-rusty).

What I would much rather do is continue discussion on this list in English, as 
we always have.  It is good discussion, but I don't appreciate being 
name-called ("fanatic") or told to "go learn a new language."  I mentioned that 
I was a founding member of my university's Esperanto Club, so I know the 
reasoning behind why people might want to learn the language.  But I don't 
believe it was ever meant to be rammed down anybody's throat.  (Which is what 
that felt like).

Opinions are mine.

Thanks for your understanding and peace to you,
SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-11 Thread Tomek

EO
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
Vi povas paroli en la pola, kiu estas mia denaska lingvo. Mi ne miras,
ke vi malsukcesis komunikadi per fikcia/arta lingvo kreita por prezenti
mondon de hobitoj kaj elfoj. Latino taŭgas por nomi speciojn kaj por
estroj de katolika eklezio. Esperanto fakte estas la plej efika maniero
por komunikadi kaj ne diskriminacias iun ajn.

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
> back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
> style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
> it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
> something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
> tag.
Kiuj lokalaj mapigistoj? Ni parolas pri nomoj de Suda Oceano kaj insuloj
proksime de Antarkto!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael  > wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> > On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim at
> 56° N18°
> > > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
> Bałtyckie",
> > > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
> >
> >
> > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
> >
> > For the count, +1 against.
> And another +1, against.
>
>
> Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.
>
> -- 
> Paul
Voĉoj sen klarigo (kaj sen proponita solvo) ne enkalkulas.
-3



PL
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
Możesz pisać w języku polskim, który jest moim językiem. Nie dziwię się,
że nie zdołałeś się porozumieć używając fikcyjneko/artystycznego języka
prezentującego świat hobbitów i elfów. Łacina nadaje się tylko do
nazywania gatunków i dla szefów Kościoła katolickiego. Esperanto w
rzeczywistości jest najbardziej efektywnym sposobem na komunikację i nie
dyskryminuje kogokolwiek. Polecam tekst (pisany przez anglika):
https://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/util/espglobal/

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
> back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
> style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
> it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
> something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
> tag.
Którzy lokalni mapowicze? Mówimy o nazwach mórz Oceanu Południowego i
wysp w pobliżu Antarktydy!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael  > wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> > On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim at
> 56° N18°
> > > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
> Bałtyckie",
> > > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
> >
> >
> > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
> >
> > For the count, +1 against.
> And another +1, against.
>
>
> Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.
>
> -- 
> Paul
Głosy bez wyjaśnienia (i bez zaproponowanego rozwiązania) nie wliczają się.
-3



EN
English fanatics, please read the text:
http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf

<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-07 Thread Jo

You forgot OpenStreetMap.fr and osm.be

On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 07:18 Michael Collinson  wrote:

> On 2020-01-07 18:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> 6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  
> wrote:
>
> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South
> America" - this is an example of English imperialism.
>
> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something
> that is widely felt.
>
> regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that
> English is in widespread use because of imperialism.
>
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
>
> Totally agree with Mateusz. English is the current trading language. It
> has been Farsi and other languages in the past. It will probably Mandarin
> Chinese/simplified hanji in the future. But right now it is English.
>
> I think the whole debate misses the point. The OSM database is
> language-agnostic right now. The https://www.openstreetmap.org slippy map
> was intended to A map show-casing the database. But it has turned into THE
> map.
>
> A potential solution is to offer centralised support for other lingual
> (and culture, which is not always the same thing) maps. That of course is a
> much easier thing to say rather than do as it requires time and money
> resource, but it puzzles me why 15 years into the project we only have 4
> layers on our main site.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Note that we do have some great projects in the wealthier economies such
> as https://openstreetmap.se/ https://openstreetmap.jp
> https://www.openstreetmap.de/  ... Why aren't these integrated in some
> way into our main site !?
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-07 Thread Michael Collinson


On 2020-01-07 18:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:

Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to
be "South
America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.

regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.


Totally agree with Mateusz. English is the current trading language. It 
has been Farsi and other languages in the past. It will probably 
Mandarin Chinese/simplified hanji in the future. But right now it is 
English.


I think the whole debate misses the point. The OSM database is 
language-agnostic right now. The https://www.openstreetmap.org slippy 
map was intended to A map show-casing the database. But it has turned 
into THE map.


A potential solution is to offer centralised support for other lingual 
(and culture, which is not always the same thing) maps. That of course 
is a much easier thing to say rather than do as it requires time and 
money resource, but it puzzles me why 15 years into the project we only 
have 4 layers on our main site.



Mike


Note that we do have some great projects in the wealthier economies such 
as https://openstreetmap.se/ https://openstreetmap.jp 
https://www.openstreetmap.de/  ... Why aren't these integrated in some 
way into our main site !?


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-07 Thread Martin Constantino–Bodin




Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South

America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.


regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.


I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and 
taking the long road because you don't like that history.
It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just 
because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves 
were different.


That is just counterproductive. 


Indeed. But it should be taken with some care.

In particular there is a huge difference between using English as a 
vehicular language, and using US or UK base culture references. A simple 
example of this is the imperial system: it is currently in use in very 
few countries (and even here in the UK, it has mostly been replaced by 
metric measures everywhere). Yet, you will see a lot of people using 
these depreciated units just because they think that it comes with the 
English package. This is very sad for me.


Another think to keep in mind is that English is a difficult language. 
There is a scientific consensus in this, and yet a lot of people seems 
to deny this based on bare opinion (usually held people speaking less 
than three languages…). Thus, is it extremely important, in the sake of 
equality, that when a native is discussing with a non-native with 
difficulties speaking or understanding, that the native avoid unusual 
words, idioms, etc. Doing otherwise would be a very effective way to 
make the non-native feel stupid, or to just not listen to him/her 
because “he/she doesn’t understand”… which is just a perfect 
illustration of the consequences of imperialism.


One of the base of the Esperanto movement, but also the simple/basic 
English Wikipedia project, was precisely to fight against these 
inequalities caused by the difficulty of the French and English 
languages in a constructive way. (It’s not the only goals of these 
movements.)


In short, indeed there has been a lot of past imperialism, but these 
kind of things can be insidious and still continue. I really don’t think 
that we want to unconsciously impose such culture in our community. This 
is why I believe that we should be very careful with people trying to 
impose an English name for the “name” tag in places where it is 
absolutely not fit (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/424311641/history for a sad example). 
Or state that this mailing list is English-only knowing that someone 
subscribing to it is not warned about it beforehand.


Regards,
Martin.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Maarten Deen


On 2020-01-07 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:


sent from a phone

On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:

Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South

America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.


regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.


I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and 
taking the long road because you don't like that history.
It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just 
because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves were 
different.


That is just counterproductive.

Regards,
Maarten

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Mateusz Konieczny

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:
>>
>>> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South
>>> America" - this is an example of English imperialism.
>>>
>>
>> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that 
>> is widely felt.
>>
>
>
>
> regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English 
> is in widespread use because of imperialism. 
>
Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.
I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Mario Frasca


On 06/01/2020 09:45, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

but it's quite difficult to decide which
tag to use in each region


what about … as long as we're discussing relations … a relation could 
have a node with role `label:xx` where the xx is a language code.  it 
would specify where to put the corresponding name.  so for the Baltic 
Sea, you would have several nodes indicating where to put the several 
names in the several languages, each next to the corresponding shore.


I like the idea, if I understand Marc Gemis correctly, of having 
(mostly) nameless maps, with transparencies for each language. but yes 
someone has to program this.


one reason for mentioning Morocco: it shows how three names is perceived 
as too many.  the impact on South America could be to name it in Spanish 
and Portuguese (two languages), and by this we would cover more than 99% 
of the people living there.  North America would need Spanish, English 
and French, so maybe that would be one language too many.


(interesting page, that about "Imperialisme linguistique".  the Dutch 
version of it, very short, mentions Morocco for the other reason I 
mentioned it myself: the country has experienced French and Arabic 
cultural imperialism, and is now trying to implement some respect for 
the majority of their (Amazigh) people.  taken to this context, this 
would be the OSM-people who do not read nor write to this list.  mind 
you, the list is called 'talk', not 'talk:en'.)


Interlingua/Lingua Franca would be a nice compromise, at least for South 
America and the seas next to Spain, France, and Italy, where more than 
three languages are recognized and even more spoken, but all are 
neo-latin.  I don't know whether anything like this could apply to the 
Baltic, or to other seas.


anyhow, leaving implementations aside, I think that a bit more 
language-culture agnosticism would not harm OSM.


MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

Am Mo., 6. Jan. 2020 um 18:39 Uhr schrieb marc marc <
marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>:

> Le 06.01.20 à 16:35, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> > in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things
>
> I agree with that.
>
> > English using it in international context as a fallback.
>
> yes as a fallback, not as a rule "international -> name=name:en"
>


agreed.



> but if a lake is in a multi-lingual area, if a country has several
> official languages, if a sea is bordered by countries which together
> have a very small number of names (2 or 3 in the case of the Baltic Sea)
> or even a name with a large majority, if a continent has a majority
> language, there is no obligation to use English as a fallback:
>


agreed. IMHO, if there are only up to 3 languages used by the neighbouring
areas of an international feature, we could put all of them, but returning
to the example of the Baltic Sea, there are more than 2 or 3 languages
involved though, there's Danish, Estonian, Finnish, German, Latvian,
Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, Swedish, and putting all of them would
probably not be desirable. Putting only name:language tags and keep "name"
void would seem the best option, although it would lead to no name in
current OSM-Carto and similar styles.



> if the local community around the lake decides to have a name other
> than English, if a country have a multilingual name, if the community
> of the countries around the Baltic Sea decides to use the most used
> name or a combination of the 3 most common, if a local majority of
> a continent decide to use Portuguese/Spanish or any other language that
> better represents the name as used there, I see no reason for this not
> to happen.
>


agreed, if they all agree, why not.




> but this must be done in a transparent way, (a message on the forum with
> announcements in the national lists?) and then documented on the
> multilingual names page, and not a mecanical edit because a contributor
> wants such a language.
>


and there's always the possibility that at some point someone comes and
challenges the old agreement, so that the whole thing will have to be
discussed again.


>
> Once the language of the name tag is modified, I see no reason why
> the wikipedia language could not be modified in the same language
> as the name if that wikipedia page exists and is not a stub.
>


I do not understand what wikipedia has to do with it. Wikipedia tags are
about articles, its not a given that there will be a wikipedia article with
the same scope in the languages that are relevant. Generally we are
assuming that a wikipedia article reference stands for all languages that
are interlinked within wikipedia (although the mapper will only have
checked one language, the one she has tagged).
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, its structure follows the requirements of an
encyclopedia. Wikidata is not a 1:1 replacement either (particularly as you
can only have one wikipedia article per wikidata entity, and if there are 2
or more WP articles for a given language dealing with different aspects of
a specific thing, it might be possible to sort it out via additional
wikidata objects and relations, but it's not where they currently are,
given all the existing relations of wikipedia articles (in different
languages) to wikidata objects, everytime you add a meta level wikidata
object ("container", "group", "part", etc. example terms maybe not how they
are actually called), you would have to have knowledge about all these
languages in order to reassign them correctly (because if you look at
languages other than English and maybe some other "big" WP languages,
things are still quite often quite bad (personal experience from looking up
things in English, German, Italian, French).

Cheers
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread marc marc

@Martin
> You mentioned the cities in Morocco
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798
> The only difference is that the Baltic Sea involves a couple more languages.

no the main difference is :
Morocco local rules about name <> one mapper rule about the world
talking and (trying to) building a new global rule is fine.
having a global rule per contributor only produce edit wars.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread marc marc

Le 06.01.20 à 16:35, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things

I agree with that.

> English using it in international context as a fallback.

yes as a fallback, not as a rule "international -> name=name:en"
but if a lake is in a multi-lingual area, if a country has several
official languages, if a sea is bordered by countries which together
have a very small number of names (2 or 3 in the case of the Baltic Sea)
or even a name with a large majority, if a continent has a majority
language, there is no obligation to use English as a fallback:

if the local community around the lake decides to have a name other
than English, if a country have a multilingual name, if the community
of the countries around the Baltic Sea decides to use the most used
name or a combination of the 3 most common, if a local majority of
a continent decide to use Portuguese/Spanish or any other language that
better represents the name as used there, I see no reason for this not
to happen.
but this must be done in a transparent way, (a message on the forum with
announcements in the national lists?) and then documented on the
multilingual names page, and not a mecanical edit because a contributor
wants such a language.

Once the language of the name tag is modified, I see no reason why
the wikipedia language could not be modified in the same language
as the name if that wikipedia page exists and is not a stub.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> 
>> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South
>> America" - this is an example of English imperialism.
> 
> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that 
> is widely felt.

regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English 
is in widespread use because of imperialism. We’re all used to it (at least in 
the western world) and internet and the tech economy have further diffused its 
use, so currently it is the defacto standard for most international contexts 
(in other regions and for some specific context it may be Russian or Chinese, 
Spanish, French etc. all mostly because of imperialism). 

Not sure this has to be discussed, in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent 
the current state of things, rather than trying to campaign for a state we 
would prefer (with the exception of Crimea, which is this, an exception, simply 
because last year the majority of the 5 people that made up the board wasn’t 
interested in seeing a bigger picture or striving for consistency). English is 
(shortly before Chinese) the language which most people in the world are able 
to understand, so there is good reason for using it in international context as 
a fallback. As OpenStreetMap is not popular in China (AFAIK it’s even forbidden 
to use it), the logical alternative IMHO isn’t relevant for our context. 
Esperanto, which you personally seem to prefer, and which is around for 133 
years, is only understood by, with most favorable estimates, 2 Million people 
(compared to billions for English) and while remaining susceptible for 
criticism of eurocentrism similar to English and not being  “neutral” in any 
way, it is completely artificial so that the “names” in Esperanto are used by 
nobody. Choosing Esperanto would be a loose-loose situation, from my point of 
view.

Cheers Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Mateusz Konieczny

6 Jan 2020, 14:35 by marc.ge...@gmail.com:

> So isn't the only conclusion that you can make that pre-rendered tiles
> fail as soon as one needs to serve a multi-language audience?
>
To be more specific - it fails in regions with multiple languages
and once someone leaves her/his language area.

> Wouldn't the best technical solution be vector tiles (or another
> technology) and let the end-user choose in which language the names
> are displayed?
>
Yes, though vector tiles have some other issues 
(for example geometry distortions).

Also, someone needs to implement this.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

> ... the osm.org styles base themselves on the “name” tag to determine the 
> default style? Or is this that the way the styles are currently defined do 
> not enable the definition of heuristics to pick the best “name:*” tag if the 
> “name” tag itself is absent? I really don’t know the styling part of OSM 
> renderrers, but it seems to be crucial in this discussion: can you elaborate 
> on this?

The "Standard" map layer on openstreetmap.org is in the
Openstreetmap-carto style, the details of which are open source at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/ - most features,
including bays, straits, lakes and other large natural features, have
a text lable displaed based on the "name=*" tag. This is also common
for some other styles which intend to serve the whole globe, since the
"name=" tag should include the common local name, in whatever language
or langauges the local mappers have chosen as the local standard.

In theory we could produce these name labels from tags like
"name:de=*" in Germany and "name:de=" + "name:fr=*" + "name:nl=*" in
the various parts of Belgium, but it's quite difficult to decide which
tag to use in each region.

There is currently no agreed-upon way to determine the "default"
language of a place on land. I attempted a proposal for this a year
ago, but it was not accepted (See issues at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format).
Before that, two similar proposals were also rejected, so currently
there is no information in our database about what name:
tags are used locally.

As far as I know there is no technically simple way to solve this
problem without picking a default language for a global map. The
current solution, which lets local mappers manually pick the "name="
for each feature, is not perfect, but it is better than guessing which
language to render for each region. While I am still in favor of a
solution that adds some sort of "default language and script" tag for
each region, it does not seem that there is enough support for that
idea to happen, so for now we need to have name=* tags for things that
are going to be rendered on global maps.

(Note that Openstreetmap-carto does not render the names of oceans,
continents and seas, but does render the names of some large bays and
straits and islands which are relevant to this discussion)

Joseph Eisenberg
(One of the maintainers of Openstreetmap-carto, mapper in Indonesia)

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Martin Constantino–Bodin

Hi everyone ☺
OK, it seems that the discussions are going wild again in this new year.
So let’s keep feelings aside and try to answer with arguments instead ☺
Thanks everyone who does that, you are too many to thank individually ☺

@Mario: I’ve seen a lot of people saying that we shouldn’t remove the
“name” tag (and because it already led to a misunderstanding, let’s be
precise: I mean the tag whose name is exactly “name”, so we keep the
“name:en”, “name:UN:en”, etc., and I only mean that for places like
oceans and Antartica), but I haven’t seen any argument for this. Can you
elaborate on this?

The reason why I believe the “name” tag should not be placed in such
place is semantic: there is no best local name, so let’s not put any.
This then enables any renderrer to default to a language of their choice
(or to check for other, possibly more adequate tags, like “name:UN:*”).
If you put a “name” tag here, I can’t do that. I’ve been suggesting to
create a renderrer that just uses “name:eo” if present… just to be told
right away that this is not a good solution as it would basically
chooses the Esperanto name for everything instead of just these places
where there is no default language. I think that having an empty “name”
tag or not having a “name” tag would be a nice indication that there is
not best “name” tag, and leave each renderrer use their heuristics (or
just display no name).

You mentioned the cities in Morocco. This is a cool example ☺ So for
instance there is this node:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798 (I’ve taken it randomly: I
really don’t know this region) It seems to be in a very similar
situation than the Baltic Sea we discussed before
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 So if we can do it in
Morocco, would it make sense to do it in the Baltic Sea? (That was
basically what this changeset suggested:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78171743 just that this
changeset wasn’t done with the permission of the community.) I like how
it renders with the new line between each name ☺ The only difference is
that the Baltic Sea involves a couple more languages. Any thoughts about
this?

@Marc: You seem to understand the issue better than me, but I didn’t
understand your answer. From what you said, the osm.org styles base
themselves on the “name” tag to determine the default style? Or is this
that the way the styles are currently defined do not enable the
definition of heuristics to pick the best “name:*” tag if the “name” tag
itself is absent? I really don’t know the styling part of OSM
renderrers, but it seems to be crucial in this discussion: can you
elaborate on this? This would really help ☺

Thanks in advance! ☺

(Here follows the second part, more clumsy and probably less important
part of my message ☺)

Just to argument against some opinions that have been raised there which
made my right eyebrow raised by two centimeters:
— Yes, linguistic imperialism is a thing:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique#Les_facettes_de_l'imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique_dans_les_grandes_r%C3%A9gions_du_monde
The English Wikipedia for this notion is quite poor, so I’m putting the
French one. Interestingly enough its discussion page is going as wild as
this very thread ☺
— There have been a German-only message three days ago, and it didn’t
yield to any frenzy, yet, in this thread, people seems to really don’t
like multilanguage posts. The rules of this mailing list are not shown
when subscribing, so it is normal that not everyone knows about them. So
let’s be calm about it. (And maybe display some rule when subscribing
the mailing list?) ☺
— From what I remember, there is no South-America polygon in OSM. And
given that about half its population speaks Portuguese as a main
language (yes, Brazil is a big country), choosing Spanish for the name
tag may not be as natural as it might look like.
— Esperanto is not meant to be more easily understandable without
learning the language. There are languages with such goals (Interlingua,
typically). The goal of (the design behind) Esperanto (before it started
to evolve like a natural language) is to reduce the learning time to
reach fluency without hindering on the language expressiveness.

Amike,
Martin.

Hi Tomek, and everybody.

being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use
Spanish, or Italian. my written Latin is poor.

I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand
Polish better than Esperanto.

Should I "vote" on your proposal? I consider this the wrong place for
holding even the discussion. according to me, using the English
language for naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough,
but I do not think (many) people from South America will tell you that
**here**, because people who agree with you will not be reading you
here. If I know the locals good enough, they would want the map to be
in

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Marc Gemis

So isn't the only conclusion that you can make that pre-rendered tiles
fail as soon as one needs to serve a multi-language audience?

Wouldn't the best technical solution be vector tiles (or another
technology) and let the end-user choose in which language the names
are displayed?
Removing the "name" field will not solve the problems on osm.org. The
maintainers of the default style (and the other styles on osm.org)
will no longer be able to use the name field and will have to pick
another one in order to display some label. That choice will never
satisfy all needs.
E.g. a common question on help.openstreetmap.org and the different
fora is to change the labels to language X (typically English,
probably related to the nationality of the visitors).

m.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 PM Mario Frasca  wrote:
>
> Hi Tomek, and everybody.
>
> being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use 
> Spanish, or Italian.  my written Latin is poor.
>
> I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish 
> better than Esperanto.
>
> Should I "vote" on your proposal?  I consider this the wrong place for 
> holding even the discussion.  according to me, using the English language for 
> naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, but I do not think 
> (many) people from South America will tell you that **here**, because people 
> who agree with you will not be reading you here.  If I know the locals good 
> enough, they would want the map to be in Spanish just as they seem to have 
> the impression that the whole world (around them) speaks Spanish.  (I do not 
> know many people from Cayenne, Brazil, nor Suriname.)
>
> I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the wikipedia 
> tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english wikipedia version, 
> too bad.  you will not solve this by removing the tag, you may try to educate 
> Latin speaking people to be more assertive, but I think it's a lost cause.
>
> I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national languages: 
> Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the three national 
> languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this way, in particular 
> with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some locals on their knowledge 
> of the written language, and I am fairly sure that 95% of Amazigh people 
> can't even read it).  quite regularly, you see people editing the 'name' tag 
> to make it less clumsy, by removing two of the languages (those they don't 
> like, I guess).
>
> so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 'name' 
> and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me.  proposing it 
> here, even less.  my guess is that having a language option on the rendered 
> map would be better than this that you propose.  for some locations, I indeed 
> prefer the openstreetmap.fr map.
>
> as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the 
> community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on the 
> form.  seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less easily stepped 
> upon.  "you may try to educate English speaking people to be less assertive" 
> ;=)
>
> anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping,
>
> MF
>
> (nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.)
>
> On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:
>
> It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.
>
> EO
> Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.
>
> Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam en 
> via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo?
>
> Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.
>
>
>
> PL
> Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.
> Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i czasami 
> w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku?
>
> Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.
>
>
>
> EN
> I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around.
> I write in my (Polish) language in the international language (Esperanto) and 
> sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my language?
>
> Please focus on resolving the name problem.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-06 Thread Mario Frasca


Hi Tomek, and everybody.

being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use 
Spanish, or Italian.  my written Latin is poor.


I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish 
better than Esperanto.


Should I "vote" on your proposal?  I consider this the wrong place for 
holding even the discussion.  according to me, using the English 
language for naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, 
but I do not think (many) people from South America will tell you that 
**here**, because people who agree with you will not be reading you 
here.  If I know the locals good enough, they would want the map to be 
in Spanish just as they seem to have the impression that the whole world 
(around them) speaks Spanish. (I do not know many people from Cayenne, 
Brazil, nor Suriname.)


I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the 
wikipedia tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english 
wikipedia version, too bad.  you will not solve this by removing the 
tag, you may try to educate Latin speaking people to be more assertive, 
but I think it's a lost cause.


I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national 
languages: Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the 
three national languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this 
way, in particular with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some 
locals on their knowledge of the written language, and I am fairly sure 
that 95% of Amazigh people can't even read it).  quite regularly, you 
see people editing the 'name' tag to make it less clumsy, by removing 
two of the languages (those they don't like, I guess).


so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 
'name' and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me.  
proposing it here, even less.  my guess is that having a language option 
on the rendered map would be better than this that you propose.  for 
some locations, I indeed prefer the openstreetmap.fr map.


as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the 
community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on 
the form.  seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less 
easily stepped upon.  "you may try to educate English speaking people to 
be less assertive" ;=)


anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping,

MF

(nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.)

On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:

It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.

EO
Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.

Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj 
iam en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en 
mia lingvo?


Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.



PL
Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.
Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i 
czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku?


Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.



EN
I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around.
I write in my (Polish) language in the international language 
(Esperanto) and sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my 
language?


Please focus on resolving the name problem.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

We shouldn't abandon English "because it is 2020."  I feel strongly about that. 
 Many do.

We are here.  Some of us speak English.  Here, we do (that).  (Speak English).

It is what is done here.  It is what we do here.  This is not shocking to 
anybody.

If you wish to have some feedback of your Polish and Esperanto (here, now), OK: 
 meh.

Please, continue to use English here.  Any dialect.  Polish and Esperanto 
(also), as you have, OK, (I tolerate it), but you have always included English, 
so "OK."  You didn't include EN.  Not OK.  Not here.

Thank you for your future cooperation.

SteveA

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-05 Thread Tomek

W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:
> It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.
EO
Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.

Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam
en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo?

Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.



PL
Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.
Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i
czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku?

Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.



EN
I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around.
I write in my (Polish) language in the international language
(Esperanto) and sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my
language?

Please focus on resolving the name problem.
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

Whoops, "I can read PO and EO, too" is what I meant to type.
See, it's this "let's not get snarled up in differing languages thing."  We can 
do this, we have.
It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.

SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

There is an EN idiom:  "give him an inch, he'll take a mile."

Tomek, the list (our OSM project...) gave you inches and you took a mile, as 
you exclude EN from here.

Just saying it out loud so you understand that there are billions of English 
speakers.  Some of us here.

Sure, I can read PO and EN, too.  Poorly.  And I suppose, luckily for you.

Please abide that English, simply, ain't, isn't going away here.  I speak it, 
billions of us do.

We are here to make a map, largely agreeing with each other as we do.

SteveA
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-05 Thread Tomek

EO
Ĉu tiu ĉi dissendolisto estas nur por anglalingvanoj aŭ por ĉiuj homoj?
Angla lingvo estis populara nur pro ekonomia potenco de Usono dum la
20-jarcento. Nuntempe estas la jaro 2020, ĉiu povas uzi elektronikan
tradukilon:

PL
Czy ta lista dyskusyjna jest tylko dla anglików, czy też dla wszystkich?
Angielski był popularny tylko z powodu potęgi ekonomicznej USA w XX
wieku. Obecnie mamy rok 2020, każdy może skorzystać z elektronicznego
tłumacza:

EN
Whether this mailing list is only for English speakers or for all
people? English language was popular only because of the economic power
of the United states during the 20th-century. Currently is the year
2020, everyone can use an electronic compiler:

https://translate.google.pl/
https://www.bing.com/translator/
https://translate.yandex.com/
https://www.deepl.com/translator

W dniu 20-01-06 o 01:33, stevea pisze:
> My grandfather was born in Poland and I grew up hearing and speaking Polish, 
> and I was a founding member of the University of California, Santa Cruz' 
> Esperanto Club (a long time ago).
>
> But, as others have said, (and English is my native language), this IS an 
> English-language "channel."
>
> May we please see posts in English (any dialect) here, please?  That is, if 
> you wish them (widely) read, here.
>
> SteveA
> California

<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

2020-01-05 Thread marc marc

Le 06.01.20 à 01:28, Tomek a écrit :
> W dniu 20-01-06 o 00:24, marc marc pisze:
>> are you planning a mechanical edit ?
> NE, mi volas redakti ĉiun punkton aparte.

editing one by one, doesn't solve the the mechanical issue,
mechanical isn't about the size of the changeset,
it's about the "select objects by a query (for ex all sea in this area)
without a review/local knowledge.

> W dniu 20-01-06 o 00:24, marc marc pisze:
>> A more pragmatic solution would be to propose that each of these objects
>> have a name either in the most common language of that place, or in the
>> languages of that place or in a neutral language for example an
>> artificial language such as Esperanto.
> La problemo estas, ke ne eblas difini lingvon de ekzemple Balta Maro

really ? reading wikipedia for 2 min, I have a less chaotic vision
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Baltic%20Sea?uselang=fr#Etymology
the current name is used extensively, including by a neighboring Baltic
country.
the article gives 2 other names used by 2 other neighboring countries.
the name tag of a multilingual zone must not contain 9 versions.

previous revert does not state on your arguments, it was done because
you are doing mass editions without following the rules that have been
written to avoid edit wars when 2 people have a different opinion.
it's sad to see that you've started again a few days ago.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects