[ec]_Moderators Announcement
this post by Eddie Castelli [ec] ed...@50mincoach.com Dear The, (aka Thomas) --->>> The Bat Beta / Wednesday 25-Jul-18, 08:07:52 Moderators Announcement > Otherwise, mailing lists will become unusable and hence a thing of the > past. Fully agree Thomas BTW; sorry folks for the long and deafening silence -- best regards | Using The Bat! Version 7.4.16.13 (BETA) (32-bit) Eddie | on Windows 7 6.1 | Build 7601 Service Pack 1-BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- Version: GnuPG v3 mQINBFq80rYBEACqNLuBiFzDZzyKsGHSttiaMLrig3XLXo8Kqw45w7v+tuIoOqaH 1R4dZA2rKVKfjr1rKEZnNXy5gK5OskVlXEjNVnKQQIKsQ65IYYluD+EQdXDSq6et LtowZk7XICwO46WswUEcyP5ANQ058cro84rOygDMytTXnzDMxVhxhtkkusXLOlBy F4tAXZMsna6vWH9nvG/2Ayl8hBku8+PXjY+ayv6tQUyJ+p0etvw5hdYYk4rSMXM+ jUIAhzBatoFR0NLCyEGHkoKgd2S1WYCjdouCzGq/0VS/As+rEKnDRBH+gSnp14TI tjqK6C+nlM9XlzMZZwDSg840GG/yu31wgdMJqkG9gUSu1n2RxQI6M4C6WnX0Zpnz gOYUEyETo9TB7LYQy4VHHyQvWBiNxJMfR5/2/Z3YElEEu++oynuIDOqU8dBNjkRl e9vln2/jxl39SE00vHnCy82DvFKUSuGbn4MBwJ+0Z5j0739thsPGMXc4Z3Ssepjl dE6AtMU2SHu2c3gzw8tKFo/k3hWQ+p1zUZIYaXns4rHdJ1BqeXS9EdCVJ8+jXtAd W48HT+YKRCigz+Hn6ox0Y2UQX+rAw7EcywGrnkSLo+atd51ZfcunTcnTUGaQQeLm BEKT0Qfc1ZxkXoJBnG8A9lIlT7stz9EuZ3rplGCjvQsjkGsBCC/a9z+z0wARAQAB tC9FZGRpZUNhc3RlbGxpXzUwbWluQ29hY2ggPGVkZGllQDUwbWluQ29hY2guY29t PokCTgQTAQgAOBYhBIuxw0ZMlhNnsTgYsJX/PX8YOhd2BQJavNK2AhsjBQsJCAcC BhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJX/PX8YOhd2mxcP/0vJiNTZRvHYNNjCZANv VDq6+Kachb508lTGXvWBhBscwRq+a1CpABtow7HF130hb+tsAFttdeuKPgCEVwa0 Wb86kHRcyN63e1TV8U94g/uRLhKl4AKsHw2a1NrZy+OM8vfZzNroz67i4uJKjk3i WXloxDS45UkQCwMsmRkM+w6xZcjPWKUTJTtTpGDBX/Se9gaF1gHDZsqyaQz01S9o v3TjVDK8ilpX7tNn9lawgHYnrAddOXsFhPTf1Igc4eN4b5rZgCHhGxNChWEw5+Yq Z1JoJ29JPxGpbP8PPKrCVCXwfiR/tSxFNRrb8ntTUduNrH992HTFK2SY9/SslKgx 1kJPXmvAIyXJ1GogIIAdaZ50HfIXVe/6grF+zIZtEclNt41zxygPNoOAgLAGoQQe 70rKI/u/+fXRn4o9DL3IXBe+WoDGAZvy9F/6Wn+1eqt/jMsZNegylu1kiaMj3Jpi PmPLzHaTGQzsWVA9jSPYfdFqCC8m+Z2N24fBUm+zd8IKj6acjytRnBYC15Hyja2z x8iVmdYQrIvnwxVQhTaxkeoBa9SgNJ7d5eF1rt0B67HwBBo4RkFHmsVImHKHBOI9 lTjFz2pNzu7f2nO7pLJ1+T3iObAEPvZ8enez6i39oCs+j5u+CsAiAklN1BOrblB7 LdT62eQFIrfjgX6PTszYEEx3tC9FZGRpZUNhc3RlbGxpXzUwbWluQ29hY2ggPDUw bWluQ29hY2hAZ21haWwuY29tPokCTgQTAQgAOBYhBIuxw0ZMlhNnsTgYsJX/PX8Y Ohd2BQJavNOVAhsjBQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJX/PX8YOhd2 qowP/A1i/n6VDWDrXTfRhwNDF7RsqdhTyFRXw2oz80Vfhcmiy35r2300nesoVgWO CClVLT6k1qvd9HDvrRpoRL1daFMuln4p8xpUP0+LV5Ewevx78x7wZxM/U/LoFmAt ZQOYHxsNtRrEhre3nON9T6Hvtrl9R+dW+x/8bs1iGQSug+/v+3CAabcUvN3GJDu2 C73AXZXgBagMv9n/ZGjnh808hQzF08k+euSBWihOoe6lVc3uTLojIvCqMlFAaF9i 8g3o+hUXGYyGfk7ppGaByYm7ynE17NycDoX7kSMDysvxSftATRjOE18sUWvBzmyG qRI9gWMCZtrTRKDK0S/MZ03FLGnlFpiwPscryPsUV60Uha0NzxyhgIuouvsZQ1jY EMlAc/x+OIYv0rvnNCSEeebLzK9jIa1U8d03hNgeWk395MuhRXS295VEf+I20RCS QL4fQTwxqeVGL0Z9+JI/0AlO0OXAMs6YbF5fmwONd5ASx9L0HdFCiJiLcGldr30v bTFz0jgoJKSgWX4OPivKvUrJzI1xXfYVxnfH7DO/o78c7W6PNSewIpMlUAn2ttDa irYr0N96LC3TLWx8Y9jur3X4bC7Yp8BrppN0SjjjMxOv7g16eIWlWoCgO/Ea45n/ E9QwrrNOJxdX7fe25EBqNgKpTxUPqIdpy4POQg2Xj1whUwakuQINBFq80rYBEACz DNkIueLbYzGlIh4Hpmqz9uUIhvIzExdgY0cxQI0BN/Qf3Pa6v6GmuU0+BmGwSElp qZ4GNhiqPyMvyxKorQJnEu5wfToBVkMWg/IPJZnOgF+RP9CDvwebw9uzp747YOk4 jHYKqdY/+/L6p2abKcbQWHAZfrp9SQHv0EKp1yqe4ldgHdJ/97BU7FXB6y9a5cfu +Z0YiMh08Ssc3YRR7w8Prw1dnCd47nut3LoZJsONBCHfrzzNjMn3a0MnB93eB7+h CMg7YEjOhtdiFSHwEMdq2T8HLXot7ZWCG6hOzaeKhgY/2oVAokl8AIKmLv/zwMw1 y+YhCaB2uFyWMRWupFiogxlrCUURGAFpTrI2R18rxTKpuDDDjdflknHQ/8Yyc1nc +iMRAyzXxU9aCk4DfTRZH2JQH/O9yv/4Oq3RNfco4ZdPk0IHKM9fchiXc2Nz25vk fvB9fDvL93fN1MnGKPDmdirHimnaO7bwC4WsiJVK0ROvlhdA7QktvJkGdIRJMGb6 MgYE4B840xD7p9Pa4Ezg64OT7HCX+NlsPKTVLIcfrWsBsfjzkak7LTxPBVoPOz7t +tb93k33Xq5bVM9+pLUHyRnFTaGH1aVY/V5fVqa1+7JyO6yC8279Yx+BTcSd2w+1 QNmcqIkTSgjy9LyO+NAchMfD4kbQC4/WdTSzXNEG6wARAQABiQI2BBgBCAAgFiEE i7HDRkyWE2exOBiwlf89fxg6F3YFAlq80rYCGwwACgkQlf89fxg6F3Z4Sw//RhnI uu2chbM95io9oAWlj1iPTpcUALXX/z0DTYYCEqLqBgAt8x0hW/KhIA0AtTu1+76D J3OIpcyR/5FF2ByabWqW9CsQa8JBHyQzBuVxMsCSEFnpbZSug64o+eg1fpM+26Ow gPtTcjcJBu6tknJWeRY/ZB5qw9myeDo1ymyc80ucHl0IUC7Mbjrtc1eztVmMIsAR DFULbuAHhldYA3AtNtPWkx/qGAliT6BgO+eW2UGofsGOAD8ZifhuU8lgucYF1r2S LKJP3O2arqXo2SsSnYj8vdUZjkRrtGg6jFeHm73OcrDONAft+lGSVI67ctgJsJp3 QPizW+xqjRjSMYtZUYLCIiO5UYw4hYaIuG/9tjpnIWIrc9miZGO9o+2Gr25s6egj EVESZSP6cc8Tr7EuotoFuPIf+iNCZoZKA/XeZIWH/plNxjL5WlDdWJYyEjoxLSfO B0RpoJ312xTS0tc5D5CP14RMI44gfgnhwJFahGzg1jJ9BVt290m5NWF9dBm0yJYk RmW1GofRjRgTS1v7ORiN5zrAT+yofztlslUV805toBzbxxP1n0K19XiedeKc0MuS fY33cyosSZ3RQ0SX1s60R+eg1E7as2Um7s3wHOlwjGzYJYfDsgcrnfFkeaHIswHf V/NNQ2sYm0Zl1OBH9esO1I4RVWCkhPE0lG5MNQ8= =qGgp -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- pgpPHKMeptKeF.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: sender name and address
Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 2:23:06 PM, you wrote: > Hello Marck, > Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 7:43:07 PM, you wrote: >> Beyond that, it may be a question of re-homing. > We can host the list at our server mailing.ritlabs.com. I think that would be a great idea. This way, you will have full control. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Cheating by the mailing list, hiding the actual author and origin of each message -- MUST END IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
Title: Re: Cheating by the mailing list, hiding the actual author and origin of each message -- MUST END IMMEDIATELY! Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 1:09:20 PM, you wrote: Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 16:44 someone whose identity had been deliberately hidden by the mailing list processor >>> I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but not >>> your name. > There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. > That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, > and not for the receiver. > Deliberately not signed. ;-) The mailing list processor even suppressed the RECEIVED header for the way from the actual author and sender to the mailing list. Thus it is the perfect tool for fraud and spam. Nobody knows who actually authored all those messages being sent out from TBBETA. What a criminal deceit! Yours, Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de (the above signature manually added) I agree. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 8:44:36 AM, you wrote: [...] > Welcome, all, to the new TBBETA mailing list Tower of Babel. > While I understand the problem that Max has asked to be solved, I'm > not at all happy with this solution and I'm open to suggestions. Try this from the Wikipedia entry that author "The Bat Beta" posted on Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:38:19 +0200: QUOTE Mailing lists Mailing lists are a frequent cause of legitimate breakage of the original author's domain DKIM signature. They routinely change the SPF-authenticated domain, and therefore break DMARC alignment. John Levine, a well known mail expert, has collected a list of all the not-so-broken possible workarounds.[18] Several mailing lists software now propose various options to deal with members posting from a domain with p=reject. For instance Mailman 2.1.16 (16 October 2013) and onward have such options.[4] From: rewriting One of the most popular and least intrusive workarounds consists in rewriting the From: header field. The original author's address can then be added to the Reply-To: field.[19] Rewriting can range from just appending .INVALID[note 2] to the domain name, to allocating a temporary user ID to forward replies through the list;[note 3] where an opaque ID is used, this keeps the user's "real" email address private from the list. In addition, the display name can be changed so as to show both the author and the list (or list operator).[21] Those examples would result, respectively, in one of: From: John Doe From: John Doe <243...@mailinglist.example.org> From: John Doe via MailingList and Reply-To: John Doe The Last line, Reply-To: has to be designed in order to accommodate reply-to-author functionality, in case reply-to-list function is covered by the preceding change in the From: header field. That way, the original meaning of those fields is reversed. Altering the author is not fair in general, and can break the expected relationship between meaning and appearance of that datum. It also breaks automated use of it. There are communities which use mailing lists to coordinate their work, and deploy tools which use the From: field to attribute authorship to attachments.[22] . UNQUOTE Otherwise, mailing lists will become unusable and hence a thing of the past. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Title: Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement) Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 8:41:57 AM, you wrote: Sometimes, >>> Deliberately not signed. ;-) >> This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. Maxim's intent for this group >> was, I suspect, to make it easier to reply without having to check whether you are sending to the >> group and not to the message originator. > Sometimes I prefer to reply in private instead of sending to the list. And if one of us were to be infected with an email virus, his computer would not be able to spread that virus to the rest of us through this list. That is, without infecting the list server, which would be a logical next step in the evolutionary predator/prey cycle of computer viruses. That may be, but TheBat! is a communication tool. If it strips out who the author of the email is, communication is interrupted. My email provider has a pretty good virus detector. It detects viruses and deletes infected messages without sending them to me. Pretty good system. It also awaits the next step. -- Gleason That's the right thing to do. Not anonymise all emails in a mailing list. -- Cheers, Thomas. Travel Map: http://matadornetwork.com/travel-map/db757901ff009eef93a2fc09521fb6bf-1482632877 Message reply created with The Bat! 8.4 under Windows 10.0 Build 17134 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: sender name and address
On 24 July 2018 at 22:23 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points >> Beyond that, it may be a question of re-homing. TBB> We can host the list at our server mailing.ritlabs.com. That sounds like a sensible solution. May I request that I reverse the configuration change for now since the Mailman we are running does not allow that setting to work well. At all! -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpw861TO19CE.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
On 24 July 2018 at 20:43 Lüko Willms wrote and made these points ... TBB>And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need TBB> to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list TBB> systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them TBB> many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating TBB> me about the author of those mails. I have to stop you here. This is not TB doing this. It is Yahoo. Doubtless for exactly the same reasons Max asked me to make our server conform to this (new and horrible) standard. The Bat does not change any headers and putting pressure on Ritlabs for this particular issue will only damage your credibility. In the 2nd week of May 2014, Yahoo started munging from: headers. They now change the from: header to... "sendername senderemail [listname]" TB is just showing you what is there. No more, no less. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows ORG="E-mailaholics International"10.0.17134 pgpsiOWJTweAU.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: sender name and address
Hello Marck, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 7:43:07 PM, you wrote: > Beyond that, it may be a question of re-homing. We can host the list at our server mailing.ritlabs.com. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutin Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, this mail comes to you from Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de (this is true, but since this is just text, it could by anything) am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 17:42 schrieben Sie: > DMARC compliant MTA servers receiving messages with a from header that > is at odds with the domain of the reply-to are spoof or phishing > mails. This is nonsense. The operators of such MTA should check RFC 5322, the current standard for Internet mail, and correct their wrong assumptions. The standard is quite clear that the actual author (the one on the FROM field) and the SENDER of the message can be different persons with different mailbox addresses and then, of course, different domains. I have dozens of email addresses on half a dozen of more domain names, and I am free to direct replies to any other address of mine, different from me as the author, i.e. the FROM address (BTW, I have also activated SPF for four of my domains). It is completely normal for mailing lists, that the SENDER field, showing the address of the mailing list processor, contains a different address with a different domain than the FROM field, i.e the actual author of the content of the message being distributed by the mailing list. Spoofing the acutal author as being somebody different than the real author is the biggest help the spammers and criminals can hope for. The peak is the current situation of this mailing list. The ultimate horror and ultimate tool for spammers. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
How to replay privately to the acutal author
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 17:14 schrieben Sie: >>> Deliberately not signed. ;-) >> This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. Maxim's intent >> for this group >> was, I suspect, to make it easier to reply without having to check whether >> you are sending to the >> group and not to the message originator. > Sometimes I prefer to reply in private instead of sending to the list. Before this senseless change to hide the actual author, this was possible by using "REPLY TO ALL" and then deleting the mailbox address of the mailing list. The OS/2-only email program PMMAIL which I had used before TheBat! always, when a REPLY-TO address was provided in the message being replied to, a menu to select the addresse of the reply: the FROM address, the REPLY-TO address, and the SENDER address. PMMAIL was in many respects superior to TheBat! Yours, Lüko Willms -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Cheating by the mailing list, hiding the actual author and origin of each message -- MUST END IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 16:44 someone whose identity had been deliberately hidden by the mailing list processor >>> I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but >>> not >>> your name. > There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. > That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, > and not for the receiver. > Deliberately not signed. ;-) The mailing list processor even suppressed the RECEIVED header for the way from the actual author and sender to the mailing list. Thus it is the perfect tool for fraud and spam. Nobody knows who actually authored all those messages being sent out from TBBETA. What a criminal deceit! Yours, Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de (the above signature manually added) > > Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: > http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Guten Tag, tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com, this mail comes from Lüko Willms, who studies network mail since the early 1980ies. am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 10:11 schrieb Max Masiutin, fraudulently presented as "tbbeta": > Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 10:43:36 AM, you wrote: >> Of course, with the change in list message addressing, it is now vital >> to state who you are in the body of the message or with a signature >> footer. > Can the list preserve the name of the sender? FIRST, the name of the SENDER is the mailing list. The FROM address is the acutal author of the message, the one who is responsible for the content of the mail. Before this treacherous change, at least the NAME of the author was preserved in the already falsified FROM field, by giving him a false mailbox address. The only proper solution is that the FROM remains unchanged from the actual AUTHOR of the message, and the SENDER shows the addres of the mailing list. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
On 24 July 2018 at 20:43 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points ... >> The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in >> message list header. ... TBB>The FROM address is meant to be the actual author of the text TBB> being sent, or who has composed it. TBB>The recent change puts this on the head and presents the TBB> technical agent sending out, the mailing list processor, as the TBB> author. This is fraud, swindle, imposture, this is criminal. I agree. TBB>Let me cite from the RFC on Internet mail (Section 3.6.2. TBB> Originator Fields, of RFC 5322 ) TBB>The "From:" field specifies the author(s) of the message,?? TBB> that is, the mailbox(es) of the person(s) or system(s) TBB> responsible?? for the writing of the message. TBB>The "Sender:" field specifies the?? mailbox of the agent TBB> responsible for the actual transmission of the?? message. So how did the authors of the DMARC spec get away with putting in validation conditions that complete violate RFC when it comes to mailing list operation? ... TBB>This latest change to suppress the author and to cheat the TBB> reader by the fraudulent pretense that the sender is the actual TBB> author has to be reverted immediately. I am getting close to doing so... My server does DKIM validation and list messages do not get flagged. TBB> Anybody who is operating a mailing list or even programming TBB> and selling (!) a mailing program should know that this grave TBB> violation of the basic rule for Internet mail must not occur in any case. ... TBB>And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need TBB> to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list TBB> systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them TBB> many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating TBB> me about the author of those mails. I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not seeing anything amiss (other than everything about this current config change, which seems completely wrong to me. I have asked the server admin if there's anything he can do about upgrading the Mailman to a more recent release, better suited to be used like this without making such an almighty mess. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows ORG="E-mailaholics International"10.0.17134 pgpJieZ4d6X2G.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement -- the change must be reversed immediately!
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 17:58 schrieben Sie: > Hello tbbeta, > Unfortunately i loose in mailing list a the track who sent me which > mail. > The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in > message list header. There is no X-Sender header in the email which I reply to with this one. Besides, the SENDER in this case is the mailing list processor, the program mailman, respectively the specific instance of it. The FROM address is meant to be the actual author of the text being sent, or who has composed it. The recent change puts this on the head and presents the technical agent sending out, the mailing list processor, as the author. This is fraud, swindle, imposture, this is criminal. Let me cite from the RFC on Internet mail (Section 3.6.2. Originator Fields, of RFC 5322 ) The "From:" field specifies the author(s) of the message, that is, the mailbox(es) of the person(s) or system(s) responsible for the writing of the message. The "Sender:" field specifies the mailbox of the agent responsible for the actual transmission of the message. For example, if a secretary were to send a message for another person, the mailbox of the secretary would appear in the "Sender:" field and the mailbox of the actual author would appear in the "From:" field. This latest change to suppress the author and to cheat the reader by the fraudulent pretense that the sender is the actual author has to be reverted immediately. Anybody who is operating a mailing list or even programming and selling (!) a mailing program should know that this grave violation of the basic rule for Internet mail must not occur in any case. I am very seriously angry about that. And I want to remind the Ritlabs people that they still need to repair the suppression of the Authors in various mailing list systems, notably in Yahoo Groups, what I had pointed out to them many months earlier, and it TheBat is still fraudulently cheating me about the author of those mails. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Hello The, We may need to change our salutation macros... > The reason for the change is, as Dierk pointed out, How do I find Dierks message(s) in message list (see attached)? -- Who cares who I am ;-) Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: sender name and address
Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 12:32:52 PM, you wrote: > Maybe if we install Mailman 2.1.28 released Jul 23 2018 it will have options > that we need? Excellent point. We could also explore an alternative service. Jerry -- Best regards, Ethanmailto:supp...@thedesk.ca Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: sender name and address
Dear Max, On 24 July 2018 at 17:32 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points TBB> We have to figure out how to preserve somehow the sender name and address in the list. We do. Or we work out if it possible to revert and issue standing instructions to subscribers whitelist this domain on their servers in order to avoid DMARC and SPF failure filtering. TBB> It seems that we are now using 2.1.13 released Dec 22 2009. TBB> Maybe if we install Mailman 2.1.28 released Jul 23 2018 it will TBB> have options that we need? It's possible. I saw discussions about this on a Jan 2018 Mailman forum topic. Unfortunately, the servers we used are part of the university where Johannes Posel, the IT administrator, gave us free use of their facilities many years ago. I will ask him, but the server is not exclusively used by us and I doubt they will wish to rock their own boat. Beyond that, it may be a question of re-homing. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgp5G0zguAhid.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
sender name and address
Hello Tbbeta, We have to figure out how to preserve somehow the sender name and address in the list. It seems that we are now using 2.1.13 released Dec 22 2009. Maybe if we install Mailman 2.1.28 released Jul 23 2018 it will have options that we need? -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutin Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
The, > On 24 July 2018 at 16:05 someone wrote and made > these points TBB>> Deliberately, > I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, > but not > your name. >>> There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. >>> That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, >>> and not for the receiver. >>> Deliberately not signed. ;-) TBB>> This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. > It is. I can no longer determine the originator of any message should > any abuse issues arise. I predict this list could rapidly become a > nightmare to moderate. TBB>> Maxim's intent for this group was, I suspect, to make it easier TBB>> to reply without having to check whether you are sending to the TBB>> group and not to the message originator. > It was not. The reason for the change is, as Dierk pointed out, that > DMARC compliant MTA servers receiving messages with a from header that > is at odds with the domain of the reply-to are spoof or phishing > mails. But not necessarily, of course. My email provider offers a large range of domains that a user can have for aliases. A couple I use are mm.st, and fea.st. My from header domanin might not be the same as my reply to header. > Max has had issues with key users not receiving TBBETA > announcements because they sit on the other side of a DMARC compliant > server. I suspect there really is no good solution that fits everybody. Except maybe to be sure that your TB folder setup does not specify a different domain in your reply to field that what is in your from field. > ... -- Gleason Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello tbbeta, Unfortunately i loose in mailing list a the track who sent me which mail. The X-Sender is not a useful indication as it can not be seen in message list header. -- Regards Gwen Using The Bat! Version 8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) (32-bit) on Windows 10.0 (Build 17134 ) Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Dear TBBeta Fellows, On 24 July 2018 at 15:17 somebody, somewhere wrote and made these points >>> It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message >>> who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at >>> all. Agreed. >> For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC TBB> "system designed to detect and prevent email spoofing " TBB> the best protection for the spoofer is to make him invisible. TBB> What you achieved. Helping the spoofers. Hide his identification. >> Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment >> knowledgeably. ... TBB>Anybody can put my signature in the mail body, but falsifying TBB> my email address is a little bit more difficult. The latest TBB> change to this list is the biggest help for spammers and crooks and other criminals. Welcome, all, to the new TBBETA mailing list Tower of Babel. While I understand the problem that Max has asked to be solved, I'm not at all happy with this solution and I'm open to suggestions. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpdw1MMJd6ED.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
On 24 July 2018 at 16:05 someone wrote and made these points TBB> Deliberately, I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but not your name. >> There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. >> That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, >> and not for the receiver. >> Deliberately not signed. ;-) TBB> This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. It is. I can no longer determine the originator of any message should any abuse issues arise. I predict this list could rapidly become a nightmare to moderate. TBB> Maxim's intent for this group was, I suspect, to make it easier TBB> to reply without having to check whether you are sending to the TBB> group and not to the message originator. It was not. The reason for the change is, as Dierk pointed out, that DMARC compliant MTA servers receiving messages with a from header that is at odds with the domain of the reply-to are spoof or phishing mails. Max has had issues with key users not receiving TBBETA announcements because they sit on the other side of a DMARC compliant server. ... -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpnuAtoX4gDd.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Sometimes, >>> Deliberately not signed. ;-) >> This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. Maxim's intent >> for this group >> was, I suspect, to make it easier to reply without having to check whether >> you are sending to the >> group and not to the message originator. > Sometimes I prefer to reply in private instead of sending to the list. And if one of us were to be infected with an email virus, his computer would not be able to spread that virus to the rest of us through this list. That is, without infecting the list server, which would be a logical next step in the evolutionary predator/prey cycle of computer viruses. My email provider has a pretty good virus detector. It detects viruses and deletes infected messages without sending them to me. Pretty good system. It also awaits the next step. -- Gleason Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
>> Deliberately not signed. ;-) > This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. Maxim's intent > for this group > was, I suspect, to make it easier to reply without having to check whether > you are sending to the > group and not to the message originator. Sometimes I prefer to reply in private instead of sending to the list. -- Kind regards, Gunivortus The Bat! Professional 64 bit, version 8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) Windows Pro 64 bit version 10, build nr. 17134 NordVPN vs. 6.11.12.0 Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Deliberately, >>> I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but >>> not >>> your name. > There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. > That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, > and not for the receiver. > Deliberately not signed. ;-) This arrangement is, of course, exactly what spammers want. Maxim's intent for this group was, I suspect, to make it easier to reply without having to check whether you are sending to the group and not to the message originator. The change was effected by a change in the group server configuration. It would be possible to set that back without changing the way The Bat works. I suspect that for normal email interactions the TB group server change would not make any difference, and not benefit spammers. > > Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: > http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html -- Gleason Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
>> I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but >> not >> your name. There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. That only works for the sender to get info to send the message to, and not for the receiver. Deliberately not signed. ;-) Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Guten Tag, tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 10:38 schrieben Sie: >> It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message >> who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at >> all. > For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC "system designed to detect and prevent email spoofing " the best protection for the spoofer is to make him invisible. What you achieved. Helping the spoofers. Hide his identification. > Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment > knowledgeably. So we have in the Internet on the one hand the turning of Web browsers like Firefox into tools for surveillance of the populace, more and more strangling the users's means to protect their privacy, and on the other hand the help for spoofers by hiding their identity. Anybody can put my signature in the mail body, but falsifying my email address is a little bit more difficult. The latest change to this list is the biggest help for spammers and crooks and other criminals. Unbelievable. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Guten Tag, The Bat Beta, am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 13:32 schrieben Sie: > Hello The, > Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 4:48:43 AM, you wrote: >> I can't find any option to do that in Mailman beyond the option you >> just asked me to turn off. >> "Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address >> (Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields)" >> ... unless anyone has any ideas? > I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but not > your name. There is no X-Return Path on the mail I reply to herewith. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Hello The, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 4:48:43 AM, you wrote: > I can't find any option to do that in Mailman beyond the option you > just asked me to turn off. > "Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address > (Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields)" > ... unless anyone has any ideas? I added the X-Return Path to headers which gave me your email address, but not your name. -- Best regards, Stuartmailto:skcu...@fastmail.fm Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
On 24 July 2018 at 09:11 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points >> Of course, with the change in list message addressing, it is now vital >> to state who you are in the body of the message or with a signature >> footer. TBL> Can the list preserve the name of the sender? I can't find any option to do that in Mailman beyond the option you just asked me to turn off. "Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address (Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields)" ... unless anyone has any ideas? -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpaiHOI7V1uO.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Hello Tbbeta! On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:12:10 AM you wrote: >> Change to list settings >> I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the >> way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman >> settings accordingly. > It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message > who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at > all. For info purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMARC Just so we can discuss Maxim's request and Marck's fulfillment knowledgeably. -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] www.DH2Publishing.info Twitter: Evo2Me 8.5.8 on Windows 10 0 17134 If all the world's economists were stretched end to end, they still would not reach a conclusion. [George Bernard Shaw] Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
> Change to list settings > I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the > way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman > settings accordingly. It is really annoying to not see directly in het header of a message who has sent it. It is a kind of anonymizing I do not appreciate at all. If a message has no name in the footer, only looking in the RFC-822 header the name can be found and the mailadress if e private reaction would be appropriate. Kind regards, Gunivortus Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Moderators Announcement
Guten Tag, tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com, this is really a very negative change. Already TheBat! does not show the author of mails on Yahoo mailing lists (and certainly others more which I don't know), and now on TheBat's own list, the senders are blanked out completely. Everything is now anonymous... am Dienstag, 24. Juli 2018 um 00:19 schrieben Sie: > Change to list settings > --- > I have received the following request from Max Masiutin to modify the > way the list addresses out bound mail and have changed the Mailman > settings accordingly. >> Please modify list settings for TBBETA and other lists so that all >> the senders addresses (From, Reply-To, etc) are replaced to the list >> email rather then the email of the person who sent a message to the list. >> We have discussed this issue with you about two years ago. Now it is the >> time to make the change. >> Otherwise, DMARC and DKIM give errors on messages that I send to the list. >> Nowadays, when DMARC and DKIM are becoming more widespread and >> strict, we have to make the change. Otherwise my messages are flagged as >> DMARC/DKIM-fail. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Lüko Willms mailto:wil...@luekowillms.de Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Hello Marck, Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 10:43:36 AM, you wrote: > Of course, with the change in list message addressing, it is now vital > to state who you are in the body of the message or with a signature > footer. Can the list preserve the name of the sender? -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutin Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: 8.5.8.2 (second announcement)
Dear Max, On 24 July 2018 at 06:57 tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com wrote and made these points TBL> *** This is the second announcement of The Bat! 8.5.8.2 (ALPHA). TBL> I have made the first one on 23 Jul 2018 15:47:31 +0300, but it TBL> might have triggered DMARC/DRIM-failure. TBL> The Bat! 8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) is available at TBL> https://www.ritlabs.com/download/files3/the_bat/beta/tb8582-32.rar TBL> https://www.ritlabs.com/download/files3/the_bat/beta/tb8582-64.rar TBL> What's new in 8.5.8.2 since 8.5.8: TBL> [-] First Implementation of Scale HTML (There is a new mode in TBL> the message editor: "Scaled HTML". Of course, with the change in list message addressing, it is now vital to state who you are in the body of the message or with a signature footer. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v8.5.8.2 (ALPHA) on Windows 10.0.17134 pgpuff8AfTpwb.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 8.5.8.2 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
