Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost  wrote:
>
> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another 
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be 
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe 
> I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, 
> what would prevent the success of an installation?

We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to
USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot
anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.

But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to
be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing. But if
we're gonna do that I think it should be netinstall. That has rescue
capability live does not, and it's smaller so it fits the CD and DVD
use case broadly, unlike live which is DVD only due to size. Since all
the netinstalls are in effect based on boot.iso and are all pretty
much identical (branding and default partitioning are differentiated),
as long as boot.iso can successfully boot by optical drive, all the
editions can have a rescue+installer that'll boot them.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Felix Miata]

Harold Dost composed on 2018-09-20 22:35 (UTC-0400):

> Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
> blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
> tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final.

+1
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Harold Dost]

Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be
tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe
I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD,
what would prevent the success of an installation?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 21:54 Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko 
> wrote:
> >> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >>>
>  That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>  breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies,
> it's
>  gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not
> recommend
>  a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> >>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> >>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> >>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> >>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> >>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> >>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> >>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >>>
> >> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my
> TDK DVD-RW
> >> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> >> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting
> on the top of
> >> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> >> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife
> about the A/C in
> >> the summer).
> >>
> >> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for
> the photos of
> >> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> > Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
> >
>
> Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your
> upper end
> estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
> check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that
> time.  :-)
>
> --
> Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell
> them, tell
> them, then tell them what you told them."
>
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Ed Greshko]

On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>>>
 That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
 breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
 gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
 a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
>>> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
>>> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
>>> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
>>> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
>>> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
>>> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
>>> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>>>
>> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
>> DVD-RW
>> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
>> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on 
>> the top of
>> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
>> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about 
>> the A/C in
>> the summer).
>>
>> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
>> photos of
>> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
> Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
>

Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your upper end
estimate) I don't think they are that important.  I'll
check them again in another 15 years.  If I have a DVD drive at that time.  :-)

-- 
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them, then tell them what you told them."



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >
> >> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> >> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> >> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> >> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> > All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> > term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> > years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> > surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> > with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> > while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> > into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
> >
>
> FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
> DVD-RW
> disks that were written between 2003 and 2005.
> I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
> top of
> a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
> between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
> A/C in
> the summer).
>
> All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
> photos of
> one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 7:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem.


Somewhere is this thread, this is what I said I do.  I burn the 
netinstall iso to CD...



  And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.


back when I would have a dozen systems with the same OS, I maintained a 
local repo.  Recently I have not.  I should probably set one up for 
C7-armhfp...


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Ed Greshko]

On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>
>> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
>> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
>> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
>> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
> All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
> term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
> years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
> surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
> with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
> while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
> into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
>

FWIW, I think I must be very lucky.  I have just checked several of my TDK 
DVD-RW
disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. 
I'd forgotten all about them until reading this.  They've been sitting on the 
top of
a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of
between the 60's and 80's and high humidity.  (I fight with my wife about the 
A/C in
the summer).

All of them read just fine.  Which is good since I'd been looking for the 
photos of
one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.

-- 
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell
them, then tell them what you told them."



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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:34 PM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
>
> Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> PXE boot loader?

Neat idea. Good chance the network is faster than optical media.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:

>
> That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and
> burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I
> can work with it.

The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD.
You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no
problem. And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway,
because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're
gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well
download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what
netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster
than optical media install.

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:

> That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them,
> breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's
> gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend
> a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.

All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long
term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few
years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be
surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and
with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a
while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer
into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.



-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: Can Fedora move away from blue backgrounds?

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:46 AM Robert Moskowitz  wrote:
>
> The evidence is finally in on how blue light destroys the retina.
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-28254-8
>
> (Nature only publishes peer reviewed material.)

The research is saying blue light enhances age related macular
degeneration, not that it causes it. The luminance we're talking about
with displays is not what they're talking about. It's plausible the
research could affect certain industries and work places where there's
an unnecessary preponderance or shift to bright cool white lighting.
But I think more research is needed.

Also, the feedback belongs on desktop@ or maybe one of the marketing
lists, not test@.

> Still in all, can Fedora lead the way here?

Someone is going to have to do a whole lot of research before showing
correlation between desktop patterns and macular degeneration, let
alone any amount of causation. That will take a lot of work.

Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[pmkel...@frontier.com]

Okay,

I see. I always burn the ISOs to DVD and do bare metal installs from 
DVD; so I am testing this criteria every time I install a new drop for 
testing. Well, I have no plans to change my install procedure. I don't 
test every drop, and so far I wait to start testing until the new 
version is branched. Other than that I will certainly report it if I get 
one that will not boot from DVD. Would it be good for me to test a a 
couple of Rawhide drops just after the beginning of each cycle?


I guess, given this, I don't mind if it's no longer a blocker for Beta; 
as long as it is still expected functionality and works in the released 
version.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/20/18 5:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.


It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup
device.  It has to work.

Or is this strictly on optical install media?


Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 5:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:

Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast.
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.

I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.


I have a dozen or so each of 8GB and 16GB uSD cards for testing 
Fedora-armhfp.  They are a mess to organize.  I have tried to setup up 
index cards with 'slots' for the uSD cards that I can write in pencil 
what is current on that card.  This almost works.


Oh and the 4GB cards that only have a uboot on them...

If some has an effective way of organizing uSD cards or similar devices, 
I am interested.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> > Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> > 
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
> device.  It has to work.
> 
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in
the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release
criteria is this:

"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when
written to optical media of an appropriate size"

Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 
> Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. 
> Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
> 
> I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention 
> problems, but there is also the issue of loss.

USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 05:13:42PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
> > > > > IDE-based
> > > > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
> > > > > unable
> > > > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > > > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
> > > > contains a PXE boot loader?
> > > > 
> > > PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> > > or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!
> > No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
> > forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on 
> > your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the 
> > pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
> 
> Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.
> 
> > 
> > > But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
> > > reasons.
> > You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
> > waiting for any media to burn.
> 
> When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

There is also iPXE which can boot over the Internet from a CD-ROM:

http://ipxe.org/start

And this, but I'm not sure it is being updated anymore:

https://boot.fedoraproject.org/index
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 5:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.


Will.




That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


Show how much I have been paying attention.  But then I am dyslexic and 
ADHD (good excuse as any)!


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Rick Stevens]

On 9/20/18 1:35 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
 There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
 USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
 the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>>> How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
>>> those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
>> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
>> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
>> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
>> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
>> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
>> before Fedora will no longer support them?
> 
> So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
> deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
> audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
> that don't boot from USB?
> 
> Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
>  to enable people who care
> about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
> for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
> finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
> in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
> Fedora infrastructure.
> 
> 
>> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
>> DVDs for long term backups too.
> 
> This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
> necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
> *likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
> you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
> producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM
for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the
OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be
poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the
fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.

I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit
sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the
sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here.
--
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Richard Shaw]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Fred Smith 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
> >I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
> >someday.
> >I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
>
> So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
> optical media?
>

Please read the whole thread. This has been addressed multiple times
already. No one it taking away your ability to burn an iso, it is simply
removing the TESTING as a blocker for release.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.

> That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.

We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at
least.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?


PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.


Oh yes.  DHCP option.  Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.




But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.


When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.

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Re: PXE boot installs

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 5:02 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
This is getting off-topic, so I changed the subject.  If we continue 
this discussion much more, it should migrate to the users list.


On 9/20/18 1:57 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
PXE boot  Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for 
years except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set 
up a kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off 
install.


I remember doing that.  Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10?  I did it, and 
am happy I am not anymore.


That was a long time ago, I would suggest looking at it again.  I do 
both UEFI and legacy installs this way.  How do you do bulk installs 
or do you just do them individually?


That is the thing.  I am really out of the bulk install work.  What 
little I do these days is for armv7, and right now, for Centos7 and 
Fedora-whatever, it is dd the image to your boot media, install boot 
media and go.


Back then I had a dozen systems I was managing.  I was able to replace 
them all with armv7 and save a bunch on the electric bill. First with 
RedSleeve6 and Fedora 20.  Now with Centos7 and current Fedora.


And fewer systems as well.

Perhaps when I retire, I will go back to it, redevelop the skillset and 
market myself as a datacenter support being.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Fred Smith]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
>I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
>someday.
>I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from
optical media?
> 
>El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw <[1]hobbes1...@gmail.com>
>escribió:
> 
>On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller
><[2]mat...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 
>  Justification:
>  [3]http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables
>  -hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
> 
>Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install
>disk in years.
>Thanks,
>Richard
> 
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>2. mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> > > boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> > > CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> > > to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> > > justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> > > fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
> > Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a 
> > PXE boot loader?
> > 
> 
> PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local subnet
> or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!

No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special 
forwarding on the router.  All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your 
DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 
and vmlinuz/initrd images.

> But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

You've been missing out.  I love being able to boot today's rawhide without 
waiting for any media to burn.
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Re: PXE boot installs

[Samuel Sieb]

This is getting off-topic, so I changed the subject.  If we continue 
this discussion much more, it should migrate to the users list.


On 9/20/18 1:57 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.


I remember doing that.  Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10?  I did it, and am 
happy I am not anymore.


That was a long time ago, I would suggest looking at it again.  I do 
both UEFI and legacy installs this way.  How do you do bulk installs or 
do you just do them individually?

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most 
IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am 
unable

to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.


I remember doing that.  Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10?  I did it, and am 
happy I am not anymore.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 1:50 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


This is only about testing, no changes to the release artifacts in any 
way.  You will still be able to do whatever you currently do.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:42:50PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >>I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> >>system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> >>Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
> >Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
> It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a
> backup device.  It has to work.
> Or is this strictly on optical install media?

The release criteria I am proposing dropping is whether anaconda boots from
optical install media.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:45 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives 
from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times 
writing to them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, 
it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not 
recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I 
would recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one 
of which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.



We are drifting here.  I like DVD for backup because there are good 
physical storage options for DVD that is lacking for USB.  Plus they are 
cheaper for each backup.  But it is drifting and it has been pointed out 
that this is NOT about dropping operational use of optical media.  WAY 
too early in storage evolution to discuss that!


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that 
contains a PXE boot loader?




PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above 
reasons.


PXE boot is so nice.  It has been my primary install method for years 
except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port.  Set up a 
kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Felix Miata]

Matthew Miller composed on 2018-09-20 14:16 (UTC-0400):

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

> More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
> booting from USB media.

FWIW, context, and acknowledging release criteria is not same thing as purging
functionality:

1-a non-zero number of PCs remaining in service here cannot boot from USB
(actual quantity impractical to ascertain among the large total number)

2-all (probably) PCs in service here have working OM drives (some have floppy
drives, among which one booted from less than a month ago)

3-OM are cheap and easy to buy in required capacities; USB are expensive both in
purchase cost and space waste

4-OM have plenty room to write a legible content catalog, USB the opposite

5-OM are physically easy to library, USB the opposite (disparate shapes and
sizes, with no purpose-made storage containers)

6-I bought two 5.25" DVD writers since the first of this month

7-I have yet to install any OS from USB media

Newer does not equate to better. IOW, USB media is a considerable PITA compared
to OM.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

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Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:41 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still 
rip

CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just 
yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be 
still be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  
And if you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely 
get fixed quickly.


That is what I meant about installing from CD.  I take the ISO image and 
burn it to CD.  If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I 
can work with it.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Rick Stevens  wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
>

These systems need an isohybrid image written to a USB stick, correct?
Or you mean literally booting off physical optical media?

There's no plan to drop isohybrid for creating the images.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?



PXE boot  Set up a PXE server?  And that has to be on the local 
subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router?  YIKES!


But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:30 PM, Alessio Ciregia wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org>> wrote:


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.


Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

+1 to the proposal


At least I can boot my system from USB to try this.  Well I see that as 
a boot option.  I never really tested it...


I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!

That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from 
reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to 
them.


That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, 
breaking them, or other random failures.  When a flash drive dies, it's 
gone, very difficult to recover if even possible.  I would not recommend 
a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.  What I would 
recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one of 
which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup 
device.  It has to work.


Or is this strictly on optical install media?

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
not booting will not block the release.


So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.


Fedora is not currently released on optical media.  There will be still 
be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media.  And if 
you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely get fixed 
quickly.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 4:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:


On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are 
users of

those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


My notebook is a Lenovo x120e.   I have been getting these for years off 
ebay, but it looks like I will upgrade soon to an old 141...




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used 
DVDs for long term backups too.


The daily Daf from dafhachaim.org is 100-200MB.  The full cycle is ~7.5 
years, with 1.5 years left.  Any almost full box of DVDs.  I also have 
them on a 4TB HD...




Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.


I have never used one for long term backup.




    Have a Great Day!

    Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 9/20/18 3:23 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. 
They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or 
more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it 
sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose 
for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?


Use PXE. I bet your systems support it. Setup Cobbler and never touch physical media 
again.




Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long 
term backups too.


Yikes. I would suggest you invest in other options.



Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough 
characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a 
particularly important issue in that regard.


I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable 
brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.


It's time to move on. Technology eventually advances. You have options. There is no 
doomsday scenario here. :)


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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >>There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> >>USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> >>the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> >How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
> >those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
> We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep
> costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they
> get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the
> applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me
> I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs
> before Fedora will no longer support them?

So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking
deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the
audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers
that don't boot from USB?

Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora
 to enable people who care
about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions
for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in
finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally
in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using
Fedora infrastructure.


> Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used
> DVDs for long term backups too.

This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not
necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's
*likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which
you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking
producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
> boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
> CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
> to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
> justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
> fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Do they not support PXE booting?  If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE 
boot loader?
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Alessio Ciregia]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> > system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
>
> Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
>

Indeed.
Again. The proposal is just to remove
the test as a blocking release criteria.

> +1 to the proposal

Ciao,
A.
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Rick Stevens]

On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
>> On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
>>> CDs and DVDs ;-)
>>
>> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
>> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
>> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
> 
> This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a
> suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media
> not booting will not block the release.

So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on
optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.

> What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation
> over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

I manage several data centers with some hundreds of servers. Granted,
the vast majority of them run CentOS, but some do run Fedora. And, as
Fedora goes, eventually so goes CentOS.

Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to
boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based
CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable
to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to
justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't
fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.

Now, perhaps if I say, "I can't install newer software on them because
they can't boot that media," perhaps they'd relax the purse strings. Not
bloody likely, but perhaps. Changes such as this to the infrastructure
can have repercussions to people like myself that may not be apparent to
those not in my position. Optical media is still necessary for me at
this time.

I'm just putting in my $.02, that's all.
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-  What's small, yellow and very, VERY dangerous?  The root canary!  -
--
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce
> system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system.
> Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.

Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[pmkel...@frontier.com]

On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?




We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep 
costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get 
used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications 
we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy 
newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no 
longer support them?


Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs 
for long term backups too.


Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good 
enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. 
ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 9/20/18 1:49 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/



I installed F28 with a netinstall CD.

I burn CDs regularly for my wife.  I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce 
system with k3b. See bug 1583845.  I have to use my F24 old system. 
Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.


Though it worked with F29-beta, so maybe I should go back and test on F28.

So optical media is important to me.  And it seems it was not tested too 
well for F28


thanks
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:01:40PM -0400, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
> >More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
> >targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served
> >by booting from USB media.
> I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the
> install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much
> cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when
> there is no need to.

That's a valid use case, but 4GB USB drives are about $3 in quantities of
10. The cost in time and effort -- and potential release delay -- of testing
this seems higher than that to me. Since this is important to you, are you
able to help with this test case every release cycle?


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 1:01 PM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need 
to.


There is nothing stopping you from making physical DVDs from the install 
images that will still be created as ISO files.  And you are still 
welcome to file bugs if they don't work.  The request is just to remove 
the blocking requirement to test them.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[pmkel...@frontier.com]

Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 
Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. 
Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.


I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention 
problems, but there is also the issue of loss.



Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/20/18 3:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/



+1 to dropping the optical media 
criterion--

- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> > CDs and DVDs ;-)
> There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
> USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
> the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of
those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[pmkel...@frontier.com]

On 9/20/18 2:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
booting from USB media.



I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install 
media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than 
thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.


Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Samuel Sieb]

On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)


There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.


This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media.  It's just a 
suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media 
not booting will not block the release.


What system doesn't boot off USB now?  What do you mean by DVD emulation 
over USB?  That still sounds like not physical optical media.

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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Rick Stevens]

On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
> CDs and DVDs ;-)

There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native
USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think
the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  
> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>>  wrote:
>>> Justification: 
>>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>>
>>
>> +1 to dropping the optical media 
>> criterion--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-   Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle.  -
--
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip
CDs and DVDs ;-)

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
>  wrote:
>> Justification: 
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> +1 to dropping the optical media criterion
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Murphy
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-- 
Mastering DFS Analytics https://leanpub.com/masteringdfsanalytics

Markovs of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> Justification: 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


+1 to dropping the optical media criterion



-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Julen Landa Alustiza]

I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful
someday.

I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box

El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw  escribió:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Justification:
>> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/
>
>
> Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
> in years.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Richard Shaw]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> Justification:
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/


Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk
in years.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Justification: 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences
targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by
booting from USB media.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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[Test-Announce] (no subject)

[Ben Cotton]

The Fedora 29 Beta RC5 compose [1] is GO and is going to be shipped
live on Tuesday, September 25, 2018.

For more information please check the Go/No-Go meeting minutes [2] or logs [3].

Thank you to everyone who has and still is working on this release!

[1] http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage
[2] 
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2018-09-20/f29-beta-go_no_go-meeting.2018-09-20-17.00.html
[3] 
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2018-09-20/f29-beta-go_no_go-meeting.2018-09-20-17.00.log.html

-- 
Ben Cotton
Fedora Program Manager
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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proposal: drop optical media from release criteria

[Matthew Miller]

Justification: 
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Peter Robinson  wrote:
>> There was a bug[1] filed recently that indicated that printing was
>> broken on certain printers. As a result of that discussion, it became
>> apparent that there was no criteria for printing to work at all, which
>> seems like an oversight.
>>
>> I discussed this briefly with Matthias Clasen this morning and he
>> agreed that this should be treated as blocking for Workstation.
>>
>> I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 
>> 30+:
>> * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
>> "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
>> shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
>> color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
>>
>> and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
>> * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
>> following drivers:
>> (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
>> figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
>> user base).
>
> I'm against this as a blocker for a number of reasons:
> * When we've tried to do hardware specific blocking at the time like
> dual boot with MacOS this has not worked well and the dual boot is
> testable with one piece of hardware
> * It's easy to do a zero day update or a standard update to fix it
> post release as doesn't affect the install path
> * We don't do it for other non critical hardware selections such as
> digital cameras, video cameras, and other such things
> * Hardware availability, I don't see blocking for one type of printer
> over another type is a good use of our time.


I think it's reasonable to block on some really basic aspects of
printing breakage, like not being able to print to a PDF file, and
possibly being unable to print to the far simpler realm of IPP
Everywhere printers.

But model specific stuff. No way. I'd be generous with freeze
exceptions, but not blocking the release. I'm even on the fence if I'd
actually block on IPP Everywhere printing being broken. Once we're at
a blocker, do we have the resources to get it fixed within a few days?
If not, forget it. It can't be a blocker if we don't have the
resources to support fixing the blocker in a time escalated manner.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Peter Robinson]

> There was a bug[1] filed recently that indicated that printing was
> broken on certain printers. As a result of that discussion, it became
> apparent that there was no criteria for printing to work at all, which
> seems like an oversight.
>
> I discussed this briefly with Matthias Clasen this morning and he
> agreed that this should be treated as blocking for Workstation.
>
> I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
> "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
> shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
> color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
>
> and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> following drivers:
> (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
> figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
> user base).

I'm against this as a blocker for a number of reasons:
* When we've tried to do hardware specific blocking at the time like
dual boot with MacOS this has not worked well and the dual boot is
testable with one piece of hardware
* It's easy to do a zero day update or a standard update to fix it
post release as doesn't affect the install path
* We don't do it for other non critical hardware selections such as
digital cameras, video cameras, and other such things
* Hardware availability, I don't see blocking for one type of printer
over another type is a good use of our time.
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Can Fedora move away from blue backgrounds?

[Robert Moskowitz]

The evidence is finally in on how blue light destroys the retina.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-28254-8

(Nature only publishes peer reviewed material.)

A popular site report on this can be seen at:

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/we-finally-know-why-blue-light-is-so-damaging-to-our-eyes/

So this is substantial medical evidence detailing the actual chemical 
pathway to retina cell death cause only by blue light.


Yes we are exposed to a LOT of blue light.  Anyone that understands the 
Kevin light composition ratings knows this.  But we SHOULD be wearing 
sunglasses outside.  Kind of hard in front of our monitors.


And many of us never see the background, with all the apps we have open.

Still in all, can Fedora lead the way here?

thanks
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Re: Tracer does not seem to work,..

[Robert Moskowitz]

I just tested with beta 1.5 and maybe it is working.  See the below:

On 9/18/18 7:52 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 9/19/18 5:28 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

So far tracer has not reported a need to restart anything.  I thought there 
were a
couple updates that it should have required restarting.

Can someone else also test this?

You may have found something

I have 2 VM's.  One if F28 the other F29.  I installed tracer on both.  Both 
systems
were fully updated.  On both systems I downgraded firefox.
Then I logged into both system and started firefox.  After starting ff I did a 
dnf
update.

On the F28 system...

[root@f28k-b1 ~]# dnf update
Last metadata expiration check: 0:09:17 ago on Wed 19 Sep 2018 07:31:35 AM CST.
Dependencies resolved.
===
  Package   Arch Version    Repository 
Size
===
Upgrading:
  firefox   x86_64   62.0-2.fc28    updates    
89 M

Transaction Summary
===
Upgrade  1 Package

Total download size: 89 M
Is this ok [y/N]: y
Downloading Packages:
firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64.rpm 3.7 MB/s |  89 MB 00:23
---
Total  3.6 MB/s |  89 MB 00:25
Running transaction check
Transaction check succeeded.
Running transaction test
Transaction test succeeded.
Running transaction
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64    
1/1
   Preparing    :   
1/1
   Upgrading    : firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64    
1/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64    
1/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-59.0.2-1.fc28.x86_64  
2/2
   Cleanup  : firefox-59.0.2-1.fc28.x86_64  
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-59.0.2-1.fc28.x86_64  
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64    
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-59.0.2-1.fc28.x86_64  
2/2
   Verifying    : firefox-62.0-2.fc28.x86_64    
1/2
   Verifying    : firefox-59.0.2-1.fc28.x86_64  
2/2

Upgraded:
   firefox.x86_64 62.0-2.fc28

Complete!
[root@f28k-b1 ~]# tracer
You should restart:
   * These applications manually:
   firefox

Then on the F29 system...

[root@f29bk ~]# dnf update
Last metadata expiration check: 0:07:15 ago on Wed 19 Sep 2018 07:21:13 AM CST.
Dependencies resolved.

  Problem: cannot install the best update candidate for package
perl-HTTP-Tiny-0.076-1.fc29.noarch
   - package perl-HTTP-Tiny-0.076-1.module_2073+eebc5b71.noarch is disabled
===
  Package Arch   Version  Repository   
Size
===
Upgrading:
  firefox x86_64 62.0-3.fc29  updates-testing  
87 M

Transaction Summary
===
Upgrade  1 Package

Total download size: 87 M
Is this ok [y/N]: y
Downloading Packages:
firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64.rpm 4.5 MB/s |  87 MB 00:19
---
Total  4.1 MB/s |  87 MB 00:21
Running transaction check
Transaction check succeeded.
Running transaction test
Transaction test succeeded.
Running transaction
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64    
1/1
   Preparing    :   
1/1
   Upgrading    : firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64    
1/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64    
1/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-61.0.2-3.fc29.x86_64  
2/2
   Cleanup  : firefox-61.0.2-3.fc29.x86_64  
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-61.0.2-3.fc29.x86_64  
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64    
2/2
   Running scriptlet: firefox-61.0.2-3.fc29.x86_64  
2/2
   Verifying    : firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64    
1/2
   Verifying    : firefox-61.0.2-3.fc29.x86_64  
2/2

Upgraded:
   firefox-62.0-3.fc29.x86_64

Complete!
[root@f29bk ~]# 

Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 7:50 AM Stephen Gallagher  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:47 AM Ben Cotton  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:33 AM Stephen Gallagher 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for
> Fedora 30+:
> > > * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
> > > "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
> > > shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
> > > color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
> > >
> > +1 to this
> >
> > > and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> > > * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> > > following drivers:
> > > (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
> > > figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
> > > user base).
>


Print to file (PDF) is available by default and should be in the list.
" work" means
- creates a file that, when opened with the default PDF reader and in
Firefox using its built-in PDF support, is reasonably similar to
the preview shown on the GNOME print preview display.

As for a real printer, I suggest limiting it to an IPP Everywhere printer
(any make and model), also known as driverless printing.

Otherwise you can quickly get stuck in the mud.



 So I'd suggest that this criteria
> essentially means "We block if it is *known* to fail".



+1

Chris Murphy
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:47 AM Ben Cotton  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:33 AM Stephen Gallagher  wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 
> > 30+:
> > * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
> > "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
> > shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
> > color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
> >
> +1 to this
>
> > and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> > * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> > following drivers:
> > (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
> > figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
> > user base).
> >
> My main concern here is making sure QA has at least one of each of the
> necessary printers. That could get large pretty quickly if we're not
> careful. I'm also concerned that we could end up blocking the final
> because a printer broke or is out of ink, or other hardware failure. I
> think I'd rather keep the Beta proposal for Final. Since we have no
> criterion currently, adding the Beta criterion is an improvement. We
> can always make the requirement more aggressive if it turns out to be
> insufficient.

We do in fact have criteria that we cannot always verify (like the
Serial-Attached SCSI criteria). In this case, we don't always test it,
but if someone who does have that hardware reports that it doesn't
work, we generally will block on it. So I'd suggest that this criteria
essentially means "We block if it is *known* to fail".
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Ben Cotton]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:33 AM Stephen Gallagher  wrote:
>
> I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
> "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
> shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
> color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
>
+1 to this

> and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> following drivers:
> (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
> figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
> user base).
>
My main concern here is making sure QA has at least one of each of the
necessary printers. That could get large pretty quickly if we're not
careful. I'm also concerned that we could end up blocking the final
because a printer broke or is out of ink, or other hardware failure. I
think I'd rather keep the Beta proposal for Final. Since we have no
criterion currently, adding the Beta criterion is an improvement. We
can always make the requirement more aggressive if it turns out to be
insufficient.

-- 
Ben Cotton
Fedora Program Manager
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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Re: Are non-sse2 CPUs officially dead on F29?

[Rex Dieter]

Felix Miata wrote:

> Non-sse2 won't work on openSUSE Tumbleweed, but does on Debian next
> (10/Buster). I have a 28 attempting to dnf upgrade to 29, but I'm seeing a
> ton of entries filling up /var/lib/systemd/coredump, 197 files and still
> counting. :-( --

Pretty much yes,

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Update_i686_architectural_baseline_to_include_SSE2

-- Rex
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Jared K. Smith]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:40 AM Stephen Gallagher 
wrote:

> I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora
> 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
>


> and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> following drivers:
>

I'm in agreement here -- they seem like very reasonable criteria.  As for
the printer drivers, I think that the Postscript ought to be in the list,
and perhaps something along the lines of HP LaserJet 4, as there are lots
and lots and lots of printers that try to stay compatible with that.  I'd
also love to see "Print to PDF" added to that list, as I find myself using
that more and more as time goes on.

-Jared
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Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Stephen Gallagher]

There was a bug[1] filed recently that indicated that printing was
broken on certain printers. As a result of that discussion, it became
apparent that there was no criteria for printing to work at all, which
seems like an oversight.

I discussed this briefly with Matthias Clasen this morning and he
agreed that this should be treated as blocking for Workstation.

I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 30+:
* Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
"Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)

and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
* Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
following drivers:
(I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
user base).


[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1628255
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Re: Blocking criteria proposal for F30+: Printing

[Petr Šabata]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> There was a bug[1] filed recently that indicated that printing was
> broken on certain printers. As a result of that discussion, it became
> apparent that there was no criteria for printing to work at all, which
> seems like an oversight.
> 
> I discussed this briefly with Matthias Clasen this morning and he
> agreed that this should be treated as blocking for Workstation.
> 
> I'd like to propose that we add the following criteria to Beta for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer available to Fedora QA.
> "Work" is defined as the output from the device matching a preview
> shown on the GNOME print preview display. (Note that differences in
> color reproduction are not considered "non-working".)
> 
> and this to Final for Fedora 30+:
> * Printing must work on at least one printer using each of the
> following drivers:
> (I don't know which ones to specify here, but we ought to try to
> figure out a cross-section that covers a large swath of our expected
> user base).

Makes sense overall.

Perhaps we could compose a list of major CUPS drivers and make
sure we test each with at least one printer.

P

> [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1628255


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Re: Fedora 29 Beta status: RC4 incoming

[pmkel...@frontier.com]

The process that's running is gnome-software.

Have a Great Day!

Pat (tablepc)


On 9/19/18 11:59 AM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 9/19/18 5:06 AM, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
Back on the evening of 09/17 I downloaded the Workstation Live beta 
1.3 ISO, and ran the check sum (ok), and burned it to a DVD. I used 
the DVD to make a bare metal clean install on my test machine (Lenovo 
M58P with E8400 processor) The media check and Anaconda ran fine. The 
install went flawlessly. After a restart, I decided to wait until 
morning to start testing. Nothing was left running overnight, I just 
let the screen lock time out and left it. In the morning (09/18) I 
found the fan in the test machine running full speed, then it started 
to slow down, but not to its usual idle speed. I logged in and started 
the system monitor and found that core 0 was at 100% all the time and 
core 1 was cycling between a few percent and 100%. When core 1 was at 
100% the fan would naturally run faster.


Did you see which processes were running?
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Fedora 29 Beta 1.5 compose check report

[Fedora compose checker]

No missing expected images.

Failed openQA tests: 2/132 (x86_64), 1/24 (i386), 1/2 (arm)

ID: 283213  Test: x86_64 KDE-live-iso desktop_notifications_postinstall
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283213
ID: 283219  Test: arm Minimal-raw_xz-raw.xz 
install_arm_image_deployment_upload
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283219
ID: 283307  Test: i386 universal install_scsi_updates_img
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283307
ID: 283323  Test: x86_64 Workstation-live-iso 
desktop_notifications_postinstall
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283323

Soft failed openQA tests: 4/132 (x86_64), 2/24 (i386)
(Tests completed, but using a workaround for a known bug)

ID: 283181  Test: i386 Server-boot-iso install_default
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283181
ID: 283182  Test: i386 Server-dvd-iso install_default
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283182
ID: 283188  Test: x86_64 Workstation-live-iso install_default@uefi
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283188
ID: 283206  Test: x86_64 KDE-live-iso install_default@uefi
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283206
ID: 283210  Test: x86_64 KDE-live-iso install_no_user
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283210
ID: 283260  Test: x86_64 universal upgrade_server_domain_controller
URL: https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/tests/283260

Passed openQA tests: 126/132 (x86_64), 21/24 (i386)

Skipped openQA tests: 1 of 158
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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 29 Candidate Beta-1.5 Available Now!

[Sinny Kumari]

Cloud Base and Atomic Host AMIs are available to test for various regions.

Cloud Base AMIs are here:
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-1
ami-0a24cb0b129391f91  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-2
ami-025a265da1a333635  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-south-1
ami-032f4d743f5c677bb  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-1
ami-0e014a47fd58202e1  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-2
ami-04f1eafc8d8cef238  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ca-central-1
ami-0423d7ead4d36fc13  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-central-1
ami-0097aa31bfa6d957f  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-1
ami-08779cabb5a70b267  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-2
ami-0a2cafce4e146fa6f  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  sa-east-1
ami-07c85de0c364891f8  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-east-1
ami-0a5a4a027c594a3ee  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-1
ami-0db1697b106a42511  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-2
ami-0ae9bebb94df0dfb2  hvm  standard
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-1
ami-05cb9a208a11375a0  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-2
ami-03f32d94e35e8ee16  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-south-1
ami-08a95ab722459da46  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-1
ami-0b19c7c9c9f0e71b6  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-2
ami-03df355d88c07b195  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ca-central-1
ami-02f4f27b3c8cda214  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-central-1
ami-04077be43a1aa41cf  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-1
ami-0fa29ca888e696593  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-2
ami-09a9fa30546daec7b  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  sa-east-1
ami-0fe4b2f13a9c10b68  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-east-1
ami-0ef357b3f269575be  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-1
ami-0e24cc3e688d75512  hvm  gp2
Fedora-Cloud-Base-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-2
ami-0e2412f7959332635  hvm  gp2

Atomic Host AMIs are here:
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-1
ami-0c8c3a243f8fa9389  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-2
ami-0f516fa511f7f5e73  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-south-1
ami-007c9eb1578a4688d  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-1
ami-0a0efd1bb6204159e  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-2
ami-04544eb8e7d88954e  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ca-central-1
ami-0039a676512a0794e  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-central-1
ami-0ba7d4f7df3adecd4  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-1
ami-025df16716016af3a  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-2
ami-0dd9376c148025bda  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  sa-east-1
ami-05851e0e3ba8fa569  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-east-1
ami-03630244e374b092b  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-1
ami-0455c73d39bb9d922  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-2
ami-08494e1090a21e688  hvm  standard
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-1
ami-0751c7e8531851ba0  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-northeast-2
ami-02d3a759042127f7a  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-south-1
ami-0ca9ba91af3aa6d22  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-1
ami-0ab9ca1d8d1e8353f  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ap-southeast-2
ami-00383f891422b1ed2  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  ca-central-1
ami-075e5b73667dedb33  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-central-1
ami-0716bdf9a47a23af4  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-1
ami-0ed1063c442c97e39  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  eu-west-2
ami-0ab7b595091a81399  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  sa-east-1
ami-03952c6395be8a35d  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-east-1
ami-0be45426d63c7cf4a  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-1
ami-09f6c41ffc8c38a92  hvm  gp2
Fedora-AtomicHost-29_Beta-1.5.x86_64  us-west-2
ami-0e640910b38a99ad6  hvm  gp2


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:57 AM  wrote:

> According to the schedule [1], Fedora 29 Candidate Beta-1.5 is now
> available for testing. Please help us complete all the validation
> testing! For more information on release validation testing, see:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Release_validation_test_plan
>
> Test coverage information for the current release can be seen at:
> https://www.happyassassin.net/testcase_stats/29
>
> You can see all results, find 

[Test-Announce] Fedora 29 Candidate Beta-1.5 Available Now!

[rawhide]

According to the schedule [1], Fedora 29 Candidate Beta-1.5 is now
available for testing. Please help us complete all the validation
testing! For more information on release validation testing, see:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Release_validation_test_plan

Test coverage information for the current release can be seen at:
https://www.happyassassin.net/testcase_stats/29

You can see all results, find testing instructions and image download
locations, and enter results on the Summary page:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Summary

The individual test result pages are:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Installation
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Base
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Server
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Cloud
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Desktop
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_29_Beta_1.5_Security_Lab

All Beta priority test cases for each of these test pages [2] must
pass in order to meet the Beta Release Criteria [3].

Help is available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [4], or on the
test list [5].

Current Blocker and Freeze Exception bugs:
http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/current

[1] http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-29/f-29-quality-tasks.html
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Release_validation_test_plan
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_29_Beta_Release_Criteria
[4] irc://irc.freenode.net/fedora-qa
[5] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/t...@lists.fedoraproject.org/
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