Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Thomas,

Looks to me like this aspect of the TiddlyWiki UI is not as amenable to 
"hacking" or modification as are other parts. Perhaps modifying this to 
allow overriding should be the first step?

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:29:51 AM UTC+10, Thomas Elmiger wrote:
>
> Tony, 
>
> I assume you are right, the built-in colours of TW seem to stem from this 
> standard. They can be found in 
> $:/core/modules/utils/dom/csscolorparser.js
>
> BUT: tachyons.io uses other definitions for a colour palette conaining 
> identical names ... see http://tachyons.io/#style and scroll down.
>
> So there IS already a mapping, but it is in the core and thus I see no way 
> to replace it in connection with a theme/skin/design system.
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas
>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2019 11:48:16 UTC+2 schrieb TonyM:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
>> see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp
>>
>> If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.
>>
>> Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
>> particular elements, like "primary". 
>>
>> Regards
>> Tony
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Thomas Elmiger]

Tony, 

I assume you are right, the built-in colours of TW seem to stem from this 
standard. They can be found in 
$:/core/modules/utils/dom/csscolorparser.js

BUT: tachyons.io uses other definitions for a colour palette conaining 
identical names ... see http://tachyons.io/#style and scroll down.

So there IS already a mapping, but it is in the core and thus I see no way 
to replace it in connection with a theme/skin/design system.

Cheers,
Thomas


Am Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2019 11:48:16 UTC+2 schrieb TonyM:
>
> Thomas,
>
> If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
> see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp
>
> If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.
>
> Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
> particular elements, like "primary". 
>
> Regards
> Tony
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Thomas,

If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp

If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.

Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
particular elements, like "primary". 

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:25:21 AM UTC+10, Thomas Elmiger wrote:
>
> Hi folks, 
>
> This is going in a direction I like! I should go to bed, so I'll try to 
> keep my input short for this time. And I am writing this from my memory, 
> there might be errors.
>
> What I borrowed from *tachyons.io * for 
> https://tid.li/tw5/test/bricks.html (warning: not cleaned up) is mainly 
> its measurement system: As I didn’t want to redefine all TW classes, 
> standard tachions measures (sizes, distances) were put into TW variables 
> and used in my collection of stylesheets – preserving and revising much of 
> the original TW style in the first round. I did still want TW to resemble 
> itself. Many users are used to how TW looks since several years. No need to 
> scare them/to make them re-learn stuff they know.
>
> What I learned: Using these variables *adds a layer of complexity* to 
> styling TW via stylesheets. And I am afraid that mapping TW classes, like 
> Jeremy suggests, would also add a layer of complexity to theme (or skin or 
> design) develoment. On the other hand: TW configuration via control panel 
> already adds a layer of complexity ... maybe we could reduce there if we 
> had more and bettter themes to choose from.
> To optimize *performance* for my themes on https://tid.li/tw5/themes.html, 
> I made generators to render CSS and colour palettes into mostly static 
> files. 
>
> What I was not able to do: There are colour names (white, grey, black, 
> ...) built into TW already somewhere. Also these definitions sbould be made 
> more accessible/updateable/replaceable for designers who would like to 
> apply other colour schemes. I was not able to *replace* the coulour 
> definitions for named colours, I had to *add*. 
> I also invented new tools to opitmize colour handling and contrasts, but 
> that’s another story. 
>
> I am very busy at the moment, but feel free to ask if someting is unclear. 
> I can imagine that my concepts sometimes are hard to grasp ;–)
>
> All the best, 
> Thomas
>
> Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2019 18:13:06 UTC+2 schrieb PMario:
>>
>> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
>>> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
>>> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
>>> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>>>
>>
>> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
>> imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
>> defined clear-fixes , which 
>> make it hard for most users to do things right. 
>>
>> just a thought. 
>>
>> -mario
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi folks, 

This is going in a direction I like! I should go to bed, so I'll try to 
keep my input short for this time. And I am writing this from my memory, 
there might be errors.

What I borrowed from *tachyons.io* for https://tid.li/tw5/test/bricks.html 
(warning: not cleaned up) is mainly its measurement system: As I didn’t 
want to redefine all TW classes, standard tachions measures (sizes, 
distances) were put into TW variables and used in my collection of 
stylesheets – preserving and revising much of the original TW style in the 
first round. I did still want TW to resemble itself. Many users are used to 
how TW looks since several years. No need to scare them/to make them 
re-learn stuff they know.

What I learned: Using these variables *adds a layer of complexity* to 
styling TW via stylesheets. And I am afraid that mapping TW classes, like 
Jeremy suggests, would also add a layer of complexity to theme (or skin or 
design) develoment. On the other hand: TW configuration via control panel 
already adds a layer of complexity ... maybe we could reduce there if we 
had more and bettter themes to choose from.
To optimize *performance* for my themes on https://tid.li/tw5/themes.html, 
I made generators to render CSS and colour palettes into mostly static 
files. 

What I was not able to do: There are colour names (white, grey, black, ...) 
built into TW already somewhere. Also these definitions sbould be made more 
accessible/updateable/replaceable for designers who would like to apply 
other colour schemes. I was not able to *replace* the coulour definitions 
for named colours, I had to *add*. 
I also invented new tools to opitmize colour handling and contrasts, but 
that’s another story. 

I am very busy at the moment, but feel free to ask if someting is unclear. 
I can imagine that my concepts sometimes are hard to grasp ;–)

All the best, 
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2019 18:13:06 UTC+2 schrieb PMario:
>
> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
>> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
>> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
>> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>>
>
> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
> imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
> defined clear-fixes , which 
> make it hard for most users to do things right. 
>
> just a thought. 
>
> -mario
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[PMario]

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:49:00 PM UTC+2, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> I strongly support this! Having css frameworks in TW can boost it and lets 
> easily adopt it for different uses like elegant web pages.
> Like Mario, I recommend a more up to date CSS even the lifetime of them 
> are around 5 years.
>

CSS grid is a generic option, that is relatively new. ... The lifetime of 
CSS grid will definitely be longer than 5 years. 

Major browser vendors removed the (experimental) vendor-prefix they used 
for a long time, in October 2017. ... Removing the vendor-prefix is similar 
to declare it production-ready, in "browser speak".

-m

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mohammad]

More input:
 While I tried to adopt several parts of Bootstrap in Shiraz plugin, but I 
think Bulma (https://bulma.io/) may be a better choice as it is lighter 
100% modular and JS free!!

I would like to recommend the below page describes the pros and cos of most 
popular CSS framework.

https://geekflare.com/best-css-frameworks/


--Mohammad


On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:07:42 PM UTC+4:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>
> As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of 
> the popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional 
> plugins.
>
> The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations 
> of the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, 
> Bootstrap needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock 
> HTML button, while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.
>
> So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the 
> available frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic 
> UI framework plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written 
> buttons use the correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core 
> would stay with their default styling.
>
> There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the 
> names of UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, 
> somewhere there might be a declaration like this that says “give components 
> of type “button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:
>
> button: btn btn-success
>
> Then the core would define buttons like this:
>
> 
>
> Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
> $:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.
>
> There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are 
> pretty efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, 
> it’s not something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so 
> for v5.2.x
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM > wrote:
>
> Josiah,
>
> You say *without conversion to TW classes. * Is this because you want to 
> change fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
>
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
>
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of 
> content in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, 
> with a couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the 
> way the tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such 
> html and css rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered 
> equivalent to HTML pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any 
> css platform with few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML 
> Layouts can be found all over the net that can get such a page started.
>
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao TonyM
>>
>> TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just 
>>> obtain the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>>>
>>
>> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
>> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
>>
>> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
>> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
>>
>> Side thoughts
>> Josiah
>>
>
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>  
> 
> .
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>
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mohammad]

Hi Jeremy,

I strongly support this! Having css frameworks in TW can boost it and lets 
easily adopt it for different uses like elegant web pages.
Like Mario, I recommend a more up to date CSS even the lifetime of them are 
around 5 years.

--Mohammad


On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:07:42 PM UTC+4:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>
> As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of 
> the popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional 
> plugins.
>
> The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations 
> of the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, 
> Bootstrap needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock 
> HTML button, while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.
>
> So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the 
> available frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic 
> UI framework plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written 
> buttons use the correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core 
> would stay with their default styling.
>
> There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the 
> names of UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, 
> somewhere there might be a declaration like this that says “give components 
> of type “button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:
>
> button: btn btn-success
>
> Then the core would define buttons like this:
>
> 
>
> Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
> $:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.
>
> There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are 
> pretty efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, 
> it’s not something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so 
> for v5.2.x
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM > wrote:
>
> Josiah,
>
> You say *without conversion to TW classes. * Is this because you want to 
> change fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
>
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
>
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of 
> content in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, 
> with a couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the 
> way the tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such 
> html and css rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered 
> equivalent to HTML pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any 
> css platform with few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML 
> Layouts can be found all over the net that can get such a page started.
>
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao TonyM
>>
>> TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just 
>>> obtain the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>>>
>>
>> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
>> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
>>
>> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
>> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
>>
>> Side thoughts
>> Josiah
>>
>
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> 
> .
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>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> Jeremy Ruston wrote:
> ...
>
>> Yuck. One problem is that the average lifetime of things like CSS 
>> frameworks is only 2-5 years, and TW5 has already been around for a lot 
>> longer than that. There’s a danger that anything that we adopt will become 
>> abandoned and unmaintained. That’s part of the motivation for the idea of 
>> translatable CSS classes above.
>>
>
>
 PMario (PM) wrote:
>
> Yes. That's exactly, what I want to point out. ... 
>
> All major browsers adopted the CSS grid  
> now. So we should think about the possibilities we have here. 
>
 
I'm no CSS expert. But I'd like to comment that CSS3, on introduction, was 
a defining moment. 

Future CSS will likely modularise. CSS4 likely won't be one thing--rather 
its likely to scale off 3 in several directions. 

Aligning with the full remit of CSS3 would ensure longevity. I'm not sure 
even popular frameworks fully use it yet?

I agree with PM in concern that some approaches are better than others for 
TW. That some libraries may not be ideal. 

I'd say there are TWO issues ...

  1 -- what is a library approach that stays open enough?

  2 -- the importance of making the existing CSS easier to understand. (I 
sort of suspect if we had easier insight into our own CSS a swathe of 
obstacles would disappear).
I mean there is NO list of classes in a form a designer can use yet?

AND I want to comment ...

  3 - we DO have CSS skilled people ... like Riz, Telmiger, J.D., BTC and 
others who may have thoughts worth hearing.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is imo 
> out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well defined 
> clear-fixes , which make it hard 
> for most users to do things right. 

Yuck. One problem is that the average lifetime of things like CSS frameworks is 
only 2-5 years, and TW5 has already been around for a lot longer than that. 
There’s a danger that anything that we adopt will become abandoned and 
unmaintained. That’s part of the motivation for the idea of translatable CSS 
classes above.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[PMario]

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>

As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
defined clear-fixes , which make 
it hard for most users to do things right. 

just a thought. 

-mario

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Jeremy Ruston]

I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x version of 
TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf framework, and tend to 
favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, such as Tachyons 
(https://tachyons.io/ ).

As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of the 
popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional plugins.

The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations of 
the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, Bootstrap 
needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock HTML button, 
while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.

So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the available 
frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic UI framework 
plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written buttons use the 
correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core would stay with their 
default styling.

There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the names of 
UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, somewhere 
there might be a declaration like this that says “give components of type 
“button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:

button: btn btn-success

Then the core would define buttons like this:



Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
$:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.

There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are pretty 
efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, it’s not 
something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so for v5.2.x

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM  wrote:
> 
> Josiah,
> 
> You say without conversion to TW classes.  Is this because you want to change 
> fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
> 
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
> 
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of content 
> in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, with a 
> couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the way the 
> tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such html and css 
> rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered equivalent to HTML 
> pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any css platform with 
> few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML Layouts can be found all 
> over the net that can get such a page started.
> 
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
> 
> Regards
> Tony
> 
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> Ciao TonyM
> 
> TonyM wrote:
> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just obtain 
> the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
> 
> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
> 
> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
> 
> Side thoughts
> Josiah
> 
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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Josiah,

You say *without conversion to TW classes. * Is this because you want to 
change fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 

I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
display a value. 

On a current project I am building html templates for the display of 
content in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, 
with a couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the 
way the tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such 
html and css rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered 
equivalent to HTML pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any 
css platform with few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML 
Layouts can be found all over the net that can get such a page started.

I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
classes?

Regards
Tony

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao TonyM
>
> TonyM wrote:
>>
>> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just 
>> obtain the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>>
>
> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
>
> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
>
> Side thoughts
> Josiah
>

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

TonyM wrote:
>
> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just obtain 
> the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>

IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.

I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?

Side thoughts
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Riz]

>
> Right now I sense the issue is about getting some base library that can 
> replace Vanilla, look like it, but have the better layout matrices CSS now 
> inhabit's?
>

 Hear, hear.

I strongly support it. It might be a long and arduous journey, but a 
pressing need, especially for those who use TW5 in small screens, given 
that android app projects have not yet managed to push out fully mature 
solutions and is yet to make a dent in the ease of use issues in small 
screens.

I did a little work on it some time back, when the idea of single tiddler 
mode was floating around and seemed like it will make it into core. To have 
just one tiddler open in the story list gave a little more flexibility when 
it came to toolbar spacing. So I took an old project of mine called 
clevernote, combined it with single tiddler mode, and snatched the idea of 
hanging search bar from JD to reach a theoretical model of how TW5 could 
look in small screens with a little effort and help from flexbox grids and 
other helpers provided by decent css frameworks. 

Here is a couple of screenshots.
 
http://imgur.com/SAxUHQG
http://imgur.com/xKUvthf
https://m.imgur.com/P0r28Of
http://imgur.com/fAUcyET
http://imgur.com/apy0QnL

Now the project obviously fizzled out because the work on single tiddler 
mode halted and it never made it to core. The existing version is buggy. 
Nevertheless, to me it stands as a convincing proof that the mobile 
versions atleast could benefit a lot from a css makeover. I hope to see 
some radical changes in that direction.

Sincerely,
Riz

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Folks,

My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just obtain 
the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. I feel this is 
adequate to provide a great deal of opportunities to a designer and keeps 
tiddlywiki open to internet standard solutions and css frameworks out in 
the wild. I would not like to see any of this openness compromised. We 
should be careful not to move open standards into our standards where we 
need to maintain them and they diverge from the originals we based it on. 

However to empower the designer with maximum level of visual design is a 
good idea. Perhaps if we developed some tiddlywiki editions making use of 
each popular css framework including the default, explaining how to install 
and configure (if new releases are available) then providing tip, tricks 
and templates for each platform. During this process we may very well 
discover issues, features or tweaks we can place in the core to better 
support the use of such css frameworks.

I for one are currently using simple html/css tiddlers containing wiki text 
to present the content of tiddlers more visually. I would like a way to 
hide what is currently generated by the view template when using such a 
template, ie programmatically, without trigger or button fold the tiddler.

With my current work I can see I could provide half a dozen different 
templates for viewing tiddlers that should meet 95% of designer needs, and 
they can customise them for their own use. These templates may even be 
designed to handle view edit and selective edit modes. They can 
automatically present additional fields defined on a tiddler, and draw on 
detailed field definitions if required.

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 11:43:03 PM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Riz
>
> I seen and used your CSS morphs of libraries. Very good.
>
> Right now I sense the issue is about getting some base library that can 
> replace Vanilla, look like it, but have the better layout matrices CSS now 
> inhabits?
>
> (I often feel like the guy who saw but could not do.)
>
> IMO CSS is staring us in the face for getting explicit.
>
> But I slightly worry that 5 solutions will be far worse than one.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> Riz wrote:
>>
>> I like the direction of discussion, even if I don't exactly grasp the 
>> advantages of the original post. It is high time to update the default css 
>> of tiddlywiki. I suggest rather than building it from scratch up, base it 
>> upon an existing css framework like skeleton.css(3kb) -  which will give 
>> decent typography, convienient grids and responsive layout overall.
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Riz

I seen and used your CSS morphs of libraries. Very good.

Right now I sense the issue is about getting some base library that can 
replace Vanilla, look like it, but have the better layout matrices CSS now 
inhabits?

(I often feel like the guy who saw but could not do.)

IMO CSS is staring us in the face for getting explicit.

But I slightly worry that 5 solutions will be far worse than one.

Best wishes
Josiah

Riz wrote:
>
> I like the direction of discussion, even if I don't exactly grasp the 
> advantages of the original post. It is high time to update the default css 
> of tiddlywiki. I suggest rather than building it from scratch up, base it 
> upon an existing css framework like skeleton.css(3kb) -  which will give 
> decent typography, convienient grids and responsive layout overall.

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

In the Dev Google I wrote an enthusiastic note about Thomas Elmiger's CSS 
BRICKS plugin. 

Even if you don't like his library choice I think its a very skilful move 
towards what a CSS editing environment should look like.

Details: 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywikidev/fBuS11SOEl8/ewgO0CfsCwAJ

Best wishes
Josiah

 

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote from the Death Star...
>
>
>   In a Galaxy
>Far Away and Long Ago 
>   TiddlyWiki used bootstrap css
> BUT it only got in the way and stepped on our feet
>

I'm no way clear about which/whether a CSS library would work.

My feeling is that TW CSS (code) is largely invisible and that a structured 
approach* is* needed. Not least to get it explicated in a useful way.

Are some libraries better? 

That is my question.

My HO.

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[PMario]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:49:58 AM UTC+2, Mohammad wrote:
... 

> In Shiraz I tried to adopt part of bootstrap css framework! I think TW 
> will be much more powerful then!
>
 
  In a Galaxy
   Far Away and Long Ago 
  TiddlyWiki used bootstrap css
BUT it only got in the way and stepped on our feet

have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat, Riz, David, Mohammad

Three points...

1 -- I agree my initial post was somewhat a mess :-) I was groping to 
articulate what I meant.

2 -- What I was trying to get at is that CSS design options are likely best 
shown VISUALLY. What I mean is that though I KNOW TW does my interest 
*logically*, it does not, out of the box, do it *visually*.

3 -- I think that matters.

I'll comment soon on other issues you helpfully raised.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mohammad]

I support Riz idea!

In Shiraz I tried to adopt part of bootstrap css framework! I think TW will 
be much more powerful then!

--Mohammad

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 6:16:15 AM UTC+4:30, Riz wrote:
>
> I like the direction of discussion, even if I don't exactly grasp the 
> advantages of the original post. It is high time to update the default css 
> of tiddlywiki. I suggest rather than building it from scratch up, base it 
> upon an existing css framework like skeleton.css(3kb) -  which will give 
> decent typography, convienient grids and responsive layout overall.

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[David Gifford]

TiddlyTweeter is asking about the kind of behavior found in this long html 
I created with StackEdit. 
http://giffmex.org/experiments/mateo.28.16.20.html Click on any link and it 
moves up and down the 'story river' to the right section.

I think that is standard TiddlyWiki behavior, right? Thus the puzzled 
replies.

If the question is whether TiddlyWiki can export to static html and have 
the same behavior, the question makes more sense, and the answer is now 
yes, thanks to the recent HTML anchors hack.

I create a long tiddler that transcludes other tiddlers tagged entry and 
sorted using an 'id' field, using the following.

1. In my case I populate the id fields of the tiddlers tagged 'entry' with 
numbers, like #00.02. Note there is one hashtag. Those become the ID's used 
in the tiddler that is exported to HTML 

2. Then in the tiddler to be exported I place the following list widget, 
which transcludes the tiddlers, sorted by the id #, and each is preceded by 
their html anchor.

```
<$list filter="[tag[entry]sort[id]]"><$view 
field="title"/><$transclude mode="block"/>
```

3. Then I hand key a TOC with links lke Link text. 
Note there are two hashtags. 

But I imagine step 3 could also be done with a list widget that links to 
the id's.

4. As for the placement of the TOC, I wanted my HTML's to be more suitable 
for mobile, so instead of placing the TOC on the left, I placed it at the 
top and created links to it at the bottom of the text of each transcluded 
tiddler, so that the user can click a link to return to the TOC from any 
section.

Dave


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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mat]

>
> In the original example. Menu sticks. All items are expanded already. 
>

Then no need for any expanding ToC then; just make it a list.
 

> Click menu and whole river scrolls up and down 
>

No prob as long as everything is already opened which is simple if the menu 
is a list, i.e just use the same list for default tiddlers.
 

> AND the clicked menu item is styled (highlighted) to give orientation. 
>

OK... the menu titles could really be buttons that trigger some styling 
or checkbox is probably even better...
 

> AND its on the left.
>

LeftBar  could maybe be used as a starting 
point or maybe it's a bit ambitious.
 

Now, forgive me if this all sounds like I'm about to create this which I'm 
not because I don't currently have the time to do anything "deeper" in TW 
(and if I did, I already have several loose ends hanging). But hopefully my 
probing did help to clarify what you really asked for which should be 
useful for anyone actually designing it.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I won't rise to your cryptic amelioration :-)

In the original example. Menu sticks. All items are expanded already. Click 
menu and whole river scrolls up and down AND the clicked menu item is 
styled (highlighted) to give orientation. AND its on the left.

Josiah, x

On Tuesday, 14 May 2019 19:12:11 UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Click left. Align any top on click. Menu persists in place.
>>
>
> Cryptic language. But OK; In what way does standard TW not align any 
> tiddler at top when title is clicked and the menu persists?
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Click left. Align any top on click. Menu persists in place.
>

Cryptic language. But OK; In what way does standard TW not align any 
tiddler at top when title is clicked and the menu persists?

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Click left. Align any top on click. Menu persists in place.

Excuse me if done. 

I'd need an example as I have not seen one yet. I'd be on it like a rabbit 
if I had.

J, x

On Tuesday, 14 May 2019 18:10:10 UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
> Do we have nice CSS & TOC's & ID's to do this in TiddlyWiki easily?
>>
>
> Do what actually? Have the "Open" list to the left of the river? Or what 
> is special?
>
> <:-) 
>

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mat]

>
> Do we have nice CSS & TOC's & ID's to do this in TiddlyWiki easily?
>

Do what actually? Have the "Open" list to the left of the river? Or what is 
special?

<:-) 

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[tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Repeat for those on email.

On Tuesday, 14 May 2019 14:49:24 UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> I like visual design, especially navigation, almost as much as operetta (
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H--Z9UzQYE).
>
> I can't do code, but I can do thought ...
>
> Do we have nice CSS & TOC's & ID's to do this in TiddlyWiki easily?
>
> [image: Annotation 2019-05-14 144218.jpg]
>
>
>
> Best wishes
> @TiddlyTweeter
>
>

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