onpon4 - I doubt anybody needs the logic/debate class lesson, I'm sure
we've all learned the logical fallacies before. I was absolutely equating
software and art, in both directions. It's an opinion stance, and there's
nothing concrete to argue there, just my own view.
Icerf - I'm not a troll.
Protecting users from accidentally doing things they don't want to do isn't a
digital restriction, and it isn't even remotely similar to denying source
code. Lots of libre programs have this kind of feature. Some examples:
* Trisquel's package manager warns you if you try to install a
Most people don't even know what DRM is. There is no such thing as covenience
in DRM for the user, at least.
its pretty insany, if I search (on duckduckgo) for libregames, that
libregamewiki doesn't show up, only some crap Philippine sinkhole shows up!
Icerf - Steam is a for-profit product by a for-profit corporation and
you're suggesting they should make a product that isn't consumer-friendly
(read: braindead). What you're asking for is a perfectly good thing to have
- but it isn't anything Valve should be making. That's like suggesting
yeah, but he likes DRM!
:)
That's like suggesting
Microsoft should open-source windows.
Who wants to do that?
Of course we would suggest releasing it as *free software*...
Pedantics alone. Why on Earth would you suggest releasing it as free
software? It seems more and more than in this community, people are
avoiding *payment* more than wanting *freedom*. The two aren't the same
thing, and in the case of Windows, it's just not the philosophy they build
on.
Important
It seems more and more than in this community, people are
avoiding *payment* more than wanting *freedom*.
In that case, i would have suggested releasing it as freeware; i don't know
which term could emphasize the freedom aspect more than free software.
So how do you come to this absurd
A final remark on this idea of taking away the freedom to be non-free:
Let's suppose there are people who want to be restricted by non-free software
really badly. It's a completely unrealistic scenario, but let's just asume
for now.
They are like please lock away the code and control my
Firstly, shiretoko, I appreciate you for engaging in the conversation
despite complete disagreement. I'd like us to understand one another better.
I have a question. Have you Ever worked in IT? By that, I actually mean
consumer-facing IT. You'd be shocked at just how many people want a
computer
Market data just proves that selling proprietary software works, not that
it's the only way to make a profit off of software.
Non-free blobs? Not that I'm aware of. Doom 3 is Free Software, but the art
assets aren't. Art is nonfunctional data that isn't software.
And when did I say that you
Exactly! Users want to be able to ring up someone and say Hey, my computer's
flupped up or Can you add this feature? but proprietary software doesn't
allow this.
They don't want a non-free system that's locked down, they just want a system
that works and is consumer friendly. Free Software
Even if software is art (I disagree with that idea entirely), it doesn't
follow that art is software. That's called affirming the consequent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
It's free as in liberty (or libre, as I like to say), not zero price. It's
very rare for price to be discussed here.
This conversation has devolved into a discussion of an imaginary world
based on idealistic assumptions and zero data ... sorry, no point in
continuing beyond that point.
On Thu Feb 19 2015 at 3:54:48 PM m...@jadedfs.net wrote:
Exactly! Users want to be able to ring up someone and say Hey, my
Perhaps it has, but could you clarify how so?
There isn't any data that users want to be a non-free, locked-down system.
There's data that says Doom 3 BFG's source was released under the GPL, and
data that proves ID still made a profit, though.
Art is nonfunctional data that isn't software - Many would say you're
entirely wrong on that, especially considering software itself could be
considered art.
On Thu Feb 19 2015 at 5:59:49 PM m...@jadedfs.net wrote:
Market data just proves that selling proprietary software works, not that
it's
I don't know where you get this bizarre idea that users want to not have
access to source code, or to be actively restricted from doing things that
could be useful (such as making copies of something). No, people use Steam
because it provides access to a convenient repository of games, and a
I'm not sure why you're claiming a lack of data, when the market share
alone is much more solid than your example of one individual game released
by corporate entity for profit, with non-free blobs. You're in a vacuum
here, disconnected from the thoughts and feelings of the larger user base,
which
Okay. This is like trying to convince an anti-vaxxer that vaccines are
a good thing ... pointless. So, carry on, I'll just be over here.
On Tue Feb 17 2015 at 11:14:48 AM dbpal...@gmail.com wrote:
You don't seem to know what DRM is too, as you were saying advantages of
cloud computing, not
This is like trying to convince an anti-vaxxer that vaccines are
a good thing ... pointless
Bad analogy, no one ever told me any good thing DRM does, not even you, quite
contrary to vaccines that have eradicated smallpox, for example. But many
people told me about bad things DRM does and
I think Naev is on Steam, for example. (Or if it isn't, it was at one point.)
There is plenty of FLOSS on Steam. Though, from the sounds of it, I'm not
entirely certain that the difference between being without cost and being
without limitations isn't lost on this mailing list.
On Wed Feb 18 2015 at 11:44:48 AM onp...@riseup.net wrote:
I think Naev is on Steam, for
LOL, touche.
I actually believe that DRM is even worse than proprietary software, because
a proprietary program may not have malicious features, even though it's still
bad because it doesn't respect the users' essential freedoms, however DRM is
designed to restrict the user from what technology normally
The convenience comes from Steam allowing you to download your software from
their servers if you need. This is not DRM. DRM in Steam is the requirement
that you login to the Steam software to run your Steam bought software, and
verify your software through their servers every time your
If you have all your games on Steam and your system dies ... you just
install Steam and get them all back.
How is that a positive effect of DRM?. You can do the same with free
software. In any case, you should make backups and you can back up free
programs with no complications.
Have a
You don't seem to know what DRM is too, as you were saying advantages of
cloud computing, not Digital Rights Management(or Digital Restrictions
Management).
also all the software on steam is non-free
and that in itself it a reason not to use it
Wow. So not a damn one of you knows what DRM is? That's ... alarming.
On Tue Feb 17 2015 at 9:04:49 AM dbpal...@gmail.com wrote:
I actually believe that DRM is even worse than proprietary software,
because
a proprietary program may not have malicious features, even though it's
still
bad
DRM can also have entirely positive effects for the end-user. If you have
all your games on Steam and your system dies ... you just install Steam and
get them all back. Have a Kindle? You can manage your books from any
computer. Super convenient, and most people don't care what's going on
beyond
To cause change you do have to go against the grain. Unless you are a little
caustic most will ignore your message.
'Software with DRM prevents the user from running their software. Software
with no DRM does not. '
So actually, proprietary software with drm is actually better than
proprietary software without drm The first one at least prevents the user
from running the proprietary software from
I don't understand your logic.
Running a DRM'd piece of proprietary software is the same as running a
non-DRM'd piece of proprietary software.
If you're going to use non-DRM'd games, you might as well indulge in DRM'd
games, and you might as well install Windows.
When you can justify that
exactly
if you install a little bit proprietary software on your system, you will
install more and more, and more.
this is not always the case
i had a few blobs (wifi and gpu) and minecraft
on my old system but i eventually got rid of them when i got a externel wifi
card and made a sacrifice with
It's good that you try to improve your freedom-situation, but my experience
is:
if you install a little bit proprietary software on your system, you will
install more and more, and more.
Just because there is this thought like: oh well, one application more or
less won't make any
Software with DRM prevents the user from running their software. Software
with no DRM does not. DRM itself is pure evil and worth avoiding.
I have to question the value of using GOG or Desura as a replacement for
Steam though. Many Steam games do not appear in GOG or Desura's catalog, or
Again, Running a DRM'd piece of proprietary software is essentially the same
as running a non-DRM'd piece of proprietary software.
Either way, you're running proprietary software.
If you're going to use non-DRM'd games, you might as well indulge in DRM'd
games, and you might as well install
Another good source of DRM free games is through Desura. [
http://www.desura.com/]
On Mon Feb 16 2015 at 12:09:48 PM tomlukeyw...@fastmail.co.uk wrote:
if you install a little bit proprietary software on your system, you
will
install more and more, and more.
this is not always the case
i
Para: trisquel-users@listas.trisquel.info
Asunto: Re: [Trisquel-users] Wa can change, but not in one day
Software with DRM prevents the user from running their software. Software
with no DRM does not. DRM itself is pure evil and worth avoiding.
I have to question the value of using GOG or Desura
Thoughts?
http://www.destructoid.com/why-i-would-rather-have-steam-drm-than-no-drm-218410.phtml
yes..but they are still waiting for you Gordon..in the test chaaamber
I used Steam for a while. Not the worst DRM in the world, at the very least.
http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php
Steam DRM isn't like DRM in the traditional sense. It basically creates an
executable unique to your Steam email address/ID that you can use as long as
you login to the service. You can copy it on as many PCs as possible and even
Tux racer isn't a Mario kart clone; it's the original extreme tux faced
before it got abandoned and forked 2 times. You were thinking about
SuperTuxKart (you should try its beta version which has improved graphics,
but it might fail with drivers like nouveau)
neverputt is a great little game! very funny and the ball physics is very
good
thx banana magique!
OP:
they can bring new GNU/Linux users and these users can be enlightened to the
free software principles.
They can, and I reckon they'd do anything they can to prevent themselves from
doing that.
Oh, and be successful at the prevention thing as well.
My laptop (From ThinkPenguin!) has proprietary firmware and BIOS. It's pretty
much impossible to escape proprietary firmware, although a little easier to
escape proprietary BIOS, as Libreboot works with a few laptops.
Even if I chucked my phone out the window I'd still be using proprietary
06-01-2015 02:18:42 onp...@riseup.net:
Freedoom is just a WAD, so it doesn't support
multiplayer in any
meaningful sense. At least one Doom engine that works
with Freedoom does,
though: Odamex.
Personally, I like Xonotic better OpenArena.
I like to play Freedoom using Doomsday. It doesn't
Also supertux2, supertuxkart, enigma, extreme-tux-racer
I believe that OP was asking about the local gateway/router, not the ISP's
servers.
It's a tricky issue for sure. I've tried to minimise the amount of non-free
firmware/software I use in this regard by eliminating the router all
together, and using a dumb ADSL2+ bridge modem connected
I agree completely with what you've said, but I can't see how it's relevant
to this thread. What does your spare motherboard have to do with free
software?
While I can't agree with a decision to continue using non-free software, I
can certainly understand it. This sort of compromise shouldn't be encouraged
as a solution, but if you're resolved to continue to strive to eliminate
proprietery software from your use when you feel you can, then on
Change is never sudden and it takes time and knowledge. Sometimes all it
takes is the awareness that the current way of doing is not the right way.
That's how I switched to gnu from windblowz 7 - i had a fu.k, I can't take
this sh.t anymore! moment - so frustrated I became with that nonsense
I have no mobile phone.
I don't recall seeing game consoles addressed directly in the GNU project or
FSF page, however, game consoles and “smart phones” are computers, so the
same thing applies for them than to desktop and laptop computers.
Furthermore, cell phones are the center of some user communications, so the
I guess this thread might be somewhat related and I think interesting
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/some-blobs-more-equal-others
A similar and related question is whether art, music, etc should be free and
what that exactly means.
they are not..usually :)
i'll check it out. heard about it but never played
cheers
If your friends are high/drunk, Neverputt (in Trisquel's repository) is a lot
of fun too! :-)
oh jeez do i miss half life 2 !!!
Used to play a lot for some time a few years ago and I really miss some games
- I mean, when something is as good as hl (both 1 and 2) how can you not miss
it? :)
But I wanna stick with free software and I have emulators if I want to play
some oldskuul!
But like our phones, we can't get ride of some proprietary software around
us
is the openmoko not free?:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner
that dvd is non-free software
also the fact you own it on a legal dvd is worse as your giving money to the
non-free developers
0ad is my favrote libre game (a real time statagy game)
http://play0ad.com/
for fps's openarena is very fun and uses the quake engine
theres also freedoom which uses the doom engine and i think supports
multiplayer
neverball is a very fun supermonkey ball like game
also if you like doodle
Either a program is free software or it is proprietary software. There
usually is no gray area when we talk about one single program. Steam clearly
is proprietary. It clearly is *not* a good step in the FSF direction (as
you wrote).
If you talk about an operating system, then things can be
When dealing with ethics there are always difficult decisions to be made. And
not making a decision is also making a decision (to not decide).
I think this discussion is pretty similar to the older open source/free
software debate. Or to some people saying that since you currently can't have
Here's Stallman on steam
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonfree-games.html
There are many free FPS. For instance, isn't the game play of Enemy
Territory similar to that of Counter Strike? If so, there is this game:
http://www.etlegacy.com
As for Civilization, there is FreeCiv as a free alternative. It is in
Trisquel's repository. However, I believe the game play
i think that the openmoko only runs free software(please correct me if i am
wrong!)
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
I have an old mobo and I never use it. except when it is absolutely
necessary. I keep the bat out of it and turn it on only when I need to use
it.. I leave it at home mostly.
And this is not because I do anything illegal or need to hide something. It
is because I know mobos are tracking
You're wrong about Freeciv's AI not cheating:
AI players in Freeciv operate in the server, partly before all clients move,
partly afterwards. Unlike the clients, they can observe the full state of the
game, including everything about other players. Additionally, Hard AI players
can see
Freedoom is just a WAD, so it doesn't support multiplayer in any meaningful
sense. At least one Doom engine that works with Freedoom does, though:
Odamex.
Personally, I like Xonotic better OpenArena.
Interesting. I believe I have never played against hard AIs. It was already
pretty challenging against normal AIs (to be good at Freeciv, you need to
learn the odd of anything, the gain brought by every special land square, the
cost of every unit/building, ... and I do not play much!).
As
If the server that your ISP uses, that doesn't really effect your freedom. It
may harm the ISP's freedom, and perhaps your privacy, but it doesn't really
effect you.
It's their choice what they run on their servers, it doesn't really effect
the user's freedom. (Although privacy can come into
I use a Samsung GS2 with Replicant on it.
You can't say one thing and then do the other.
If you take the stance of the Open-Source fence-sitters, who say It's
great if it's 'open-source', but it's alright if it's proprietary- in an
ideal world, though, all software would be open.
If you take that position, nothing will change, and
Some great Free Software games for you:
-Red Eclipse (Like 'Halo')
-0AD (Like 'Civ5')
-Urban Terror (Like 'CS')
Modern game consoles are just computers that hook up to televisions.
If it has software updates, it's a computer. That's what separates a toaster
and a desktop. I actually use my
Rafi,
If I understand correctly, your proposal is that we free software supporters
agree to take “Steam” as a step that will (supposedly) help more users to
become aware of the problem of proprietary software and chose to switch to a
fully free system. If so, then I disagree strongly.
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