[twitter-dev] Re: Cease Desist from Twitter
And the love returns . The PR value of a few nice words :-) On 14 Aug 2009, at 19:08, Goblin wrote: Nice little footnote to the story, got this email from Jillian at Twitter which has made me feel all warm and fuzzy: Hey Stuart, Thanks for bringing this to our attention and for reaching out. Our Platform team should be communicating our goals (in relation to CDs, and why they're sent) to the Developer community soon, but I just wanted to thank you for making those changes to your site and let you know that our intentions were never to be pushy. Things sometimes get lost in translation, and while we wanted to make sure your site was understood as a third party app and not a subset of Twitter, we do understand that your application is great and thank you for your support. Kindest Regards Jillian (I deal with our TM protection here) On Aug 14, 6:14 pm, Duane Roelands duane.roela...@gmail.com wrote: Lots of folks don't understand trademark law. Other folks are mad because they've been asked to stop selling spam- o- trons. I can't fault Twitter for their behavior in this matter. On Aug 14, 11:42 am, David Fisher tib...@gmail.com wrote: How are some of you failing to see the difference between Powered by Twitter being something they want you to do and http:// TwitterApplication.com is something they don't want you to do? Why don't they want the latter? Because someone with the email of adultsexdatin...@googlemail.com registered the domain. Not exactly the type of company that Twitter wants to associate itself with. Yet, for applications and sites that DO comply with the ToS, they want an attribution and link back to their site. Aren't some of you self proclaimed SEO/Marketing experts? Everyone wants links back to their site, including Twitter. Making a logo downloadable doesn't mean either that they want you to use it, or their font on your website when doing your own branding. Some people here are confused dave
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
+1 and well explained Chris, thanks. On 13 Aug 2009, at 08:38, Chris Babcock wrote: On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Dewald Pretorius dpr...@gmail.com wrote: It may be an irritation and it may cost you money, but it is NOT spam. You opted in to receive the notifications on your phone, and hence it is NOT spam. If you have an email account sent notices to your IMs when you have email, those notices are not Spam, but the content of the message may be. Twitter's just the protocol. The you have a follower message is not Spam, but the act of following itself may be if the intent is to use Twitter's delivery methods to deliver unwelcome content. If a user opts-out of receiving follower notices because of the content of the followers' profiles then Spam has damaged the network infrastructure on which Twitter is based. Chris Babcock
[twitter-dev] Re: Cease Desist from Twitter
Man that's sad, your website is unmistakable and there is no doubt you are not Twitter. It sounds like it was potentially confusing before. Hmmm... outsourcing trademark checking seems to have pitfalls (i.e. eating into company goodwill). It makes you really stop and think about building a business around someone's API doesn't it - that's what we're doing right now, but it encourages me to diversify pretty darn fast. I suppose it was naive of me not to consider just how much you can be beholden to the API owner in the first place. It doesn't put me off working with Twitter, but it does make me want to get some more baskets for these eggs :-) Thanks for letting us know your situation and good luck. All the best Neil On 13 Aug 2009, at 23:32, Twitlonger wrote: I recently got a letter by email from a UK law firm representing Twitter claiming that my website www.twitlonger.com was infringing on their trade mark and was inherently likely to confuse users. The version of the website they were objecting to didn't have a similar font but did use the same birds as the old version of the site (fair enough to be asked to remove them). The timing coincided with a redesign of the site anyway which went live this week. I emailed them back pointing this out and then ended up on the phone with them with the claim being that the site as it stands now could still be seen as potentially confusing. I want to know how different they expect a site to be (especially when it doesn't even include the full word twitter in the name. Compare this to Twitpic, Twitvid etc who are using the same contraction AND the same typeface. This feels so much like a legal department doing stuff that is completely contrary to the Twitter team who have been so supportive of the third party community. Of course, all these applications have been granted access to be listed in the posted from field in the tweets, been granted special access to the API via whitelisting which requires the application to be named and described and, in many cases, been registered with OAuth, again requiring the name and description of the app. Has anyone else received similar letters where they have no problem with the service but can't seem to tell the difference between two sites if blue is present in each? :( Letter copied below. --- TWITTER - Trade Mark and Website Presentation Issues We act for Twitter, Inc. in relation to intellectual property issues in the UK. Twitter has asked us to contact you about your ww.twitlonger.comwebsite (the..Website..).Twitter has no objection to the service which you are offering on the Website. However, Twitter does need you to make certain changes to the Website. We have set out the reasons below. Your Website Twitter owns a number of registrations for its TWITTER trade mark, including Community trade mark registration number 6392997. Your use of a name for the Website which is based on the TWITTER trade mark is inherently likely to confuse users of the ww.twitter.com website into thinking that the Website is owned or operated by Twitter, when this is not the case. You are using a font on your Website which is very similar to that used by Twitter for its TWITTER logo. You have no doubt chosen to use this font for this very reason. You are also using a blue background and representations of blue birds. These blue birds are identical to those which Twitter has previously used on the www.twitter.com website. The combination of these factors and the name of your Website inevitably increase the likelihood of confusion. We therefore ask you to confirm that you will, within seven days of giving the confirmation: 1. incorporate a prominent non-affiliation disclaimer on all pages of the Website; 2. permanently stop any use on the Website of a font which is identical or similar to the font used by Twitter for its TWITTER logo; and 3. permanently stop any use on the Website of (i) representations of blue birds which are identical or similar to the blue bird design previously or currently used by Twitter on the www.twitter.com website; and (ii) a blue background.
[twitter-dev] Re: Cease Desist from Twitter
Although I have to admit the actual wording from the lawyers is much more polite than you often see :-) and the demands not unreasonable. On 14 Aug 2009, at 00:56, Neil Ellis wrote: Sorry everyone if this seems off topic, but understanding the legals of the API are as (actually more) important to me as understanding the tech. On 14 Aug 2009, at 00:44, Goblin wrote: To be fair, the new version mostly seemed to please the guy I was on the phone with, but I got the impression he was shooting from the hip when he said that I would probably need to change the blue in the logo. I get the picture :-) and that seems to be the price of outsourcing the legals - i.e. the people enforcing in it have no personal stake in the community and relations. As you say later, clarification would be good. It just seems weird that we spend two or three years building sites with the twit/tweet theme running so it is clear they are add-ons to Twitter and *then* the lawyers decide to get antsy. I know Twitter is in the position that if they don't act to protect their trademarks they can lose them, but it would be nice if we were told a few months back Look guys, we're going to need to start enforcing trademark stuff. It might be a hassle for you so we're giving you a heads up. Yeah this really needs to get sorted out 'between' friends, legals stir up so much stuff and make people feel quite upset. Better to have a friendly - hey we're concerned about your site - from the Twitter team (even if it is a standard letter) first rather than lawyers first. It would be nice to hear from the horses mouth if all the twit*/ twitter* apps were to use tweet instead, would that sort the issue out. I have www.tweetlonger.com (and @tweetlonger) so it would be reasonably trivial to migrate over to the new domain if that would sort things out. I suspect after the last huge thread some clarification will wind it's way down in the near future. It would seem to be wise, it's like finding out your best friend's sweet little 8 year old carries an Uzi in her lunch pack when a site as community friendly as Twitter starts launching CDs. The before page wasn't really potentially confusing, especially since I designed it, resulting in it looking like a 4 year old had been let loose with MS Paint, :-) I'm at that stage right now :-) Glad you got past it. Site looks very clean now. but you'd have to be pretty confused to think the new one and the Twitter homepage are the same people. Agreed! On Aug 14, 12:28 am, Neil Ellis neilellis1...@googlemail.com wrote: Man that's sad, your website is unmistakable and there is no doubt you are not Twitter. It sounds like it was potentially confusing before. Hmmm... outsourcing trademark checking seems to have pitfalls (i.e. eating into company goodwill). It makes you really stop and think about building a business around someone's API doesn't it - that's what we're doing right now, but it encourages me to diversify pretty darn fast. I suppose it was naive of me not to consider just how much you can be beholden to the API owner in the first place. It doesn't put me off working with Twitter, but it does make me want to get some more baskets for these eggs :-) Thanks for letting us know your situation and good luck. All the best Neil On 13 Aug 2009, at 23:32, Twitlonger wrote: I recently got a letter by email from a UK law firm representing Twitter claiming that my websitewww.twitlonger.comwas infringing on their trade mark and was inherently likely to confuse users. The version of the website they were objecting to didn't have a similar font but did use the same birds as the old version of the site (fair enough to be asked to remove them). The timing coincided with a redesign of the site anyway which went live this week. I emailed them back pointing this out and then ended up on the phone with them with the claim being that the site as it stands now could still be seen as potentially confusing. I want to know how different they expect a site to be (especially when it doesn't even include the full word twitter in the name. Compare this to Twitpic, Twitvid etc who are using the same contraction AND the same typeface. This feels so much like a legal department doing stuff that is completely contrary to the Twitter team who have been so supportive of the third party community. Of course, all these applications have been granted access to be listed in the posted from field in the tweets, been granted special access to the API via whitelisting which requires the application to be named and described and, in many cases, been registered with OAuth, again requiring the name and description of the app. Has anyone else received similar letters where they have no problem with the service but can't seem to tell the difference between two sites if blue is present in each? :( Letter copied below. --- TWITTER - Trade Mark
[twitter-dev] Re: Cease Desist from Twitter
To be fair Goblin, reading the letter they only ask you to make clear you're not affiliated. Not change the domain. However, point taken it's confusing. Take Twitterific's page: http://iconfactory.com/software/twitterrific That bird looks familiar and the blue and there is no disclaimer. I keep wanting apply everyday logic, but in the legal world it just seems to go out of the window :-) Now I really must do some coding :-) On 14 Aug 2009, at 01:08, Goblin wrote: I think the blog post actually makes things more confusing: Regarding the use of the word Twitter in projects, we are a bit more wary although there are some exceptions here as well. So, what are these exceptions? Does it come down to the projects @ev and @biz particularly like? What if it's twit*** which obviously isn't using their trademark but uses the same base (heck, by that logic @leolaporte should be on my case)? It would seem odd that mine is the only site to have received a letter. If the primary concern was the twitter bird then why is the new version an issue? When I was on the phone I think he said he was waiting to hear back from California, so there is more than a passing chance that it was personal opinion of a guy in London instead of Twitter's own people. As has been said, some proper clarification and a bit more transparency with the community would go a really long way here (although are Twitter now at the stage they can't comment on legal matters until the lawyers check things over?) On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Dewald Pretorius dpr...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 13, 8:44 pm, Goblin stu...@abovetheinternet.org wrote: It would be nice to hear from the horses mouth if all the twit*/ twitter* apps were to use tweet instead, would that sort the issue out. Doesn't this blog post [1] from the big horse's mouth already settle that question? [1]http://blog.twitter.com/2009/07/may-tweets-be-with-you.html It is also interesting that Biz wrote favorable blog posts about TwitterCounter [2] and Twitterific [3]. Wonder how that will impact anything, if at all. [2]http://blog.twitter.com/2008/07/follower-stats-by-twittercounter.html [3]http://blog.twitter.com/2008/06/congratulations-twitterrific.html Dewald
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Seriously Dean I'm afraid that your application (like a mass mailer) is the kind of the thing that spammers use to fill up our followers list with a bunch of real estate agents and 'social media experts'. Mass following actually harms the community on Twitter which is the reason that you will be finding less sympathy than you expected. Obviously you're bright enough to write applications, rather than dig yourself a hole on this list, why not take a step back and consider what else you could do with those skills. I'm sure you could write an application that contributed to the community more now that you have the experience of writing Twitter applications. I understand that you must be feeling upset, who wouldn't when they get legalese schtick through the email. It's not nice. But they have a point and you have the opportunity to graciously accept the situation and move on to your next idea. The most valuable thing is your skill and entrepreneurial spirit, not a micro app. I wish you good luck in your endeavors. peace Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:14, Dean Collins wrote: So has anyone heard from or know any of the other developers? Did they also get an email last night? twittercounter.com twitterfall.com twitter-friends.com www.twitter.ca www.tinytwitter.com www.twitterbuttons.com www.accessibletwitter.com twitterfeed.com twitterpatterns.com www.twitterlocal.net www.twitterbackgrounds.com twittergallery.com twitteranalyzer.com whentwitterisdown.com destroytwitter.com blog.twittervotereport.com twitter.pbworks.com twitter.polldaddy.com twitter.alltop.com twitter.infinityward.com twitter.grader.com Regards, Dean Collins d...@mytwitterbutler.com +1-212-203-4357 New York +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). +44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial). From: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com [mailto:twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jeremy Darling Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:12 AM To: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com Subject: [twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!! Actually, I recall it perfectly well. MS threatened action against Mike Roe (a Canadian student as I recall) for his development company. The case was settled OUT OF COURT, with MS basically having to purchase his domain. The same could be applied to this product where Twitter can not demand the URL but they can wait for it to expire and snag it or offer to buy out the owner. On the point about aggressively pursuing because they have to. That's a complete and total cop-out, if that were the case then Twitter would be going after ALL offenders and not the select bad guys, if someone gives twitter a warm fuzzy they view it as ok. According to your statement (and I reviewed the laws a while back on trademarks but will go look again) they can loose their trademark for this action alone. - Jeremy PS: I'm still not a lawyer, I still hate the product, but I still hate the thought more. Of course, their CD order is little more than a notice to disconnect :) On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Andrew Badera and...@badera.us wrote: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Jeremy Darlingjeremy.darl...@gmail.com wrote: Funny thing about trademarking a name and trying to utilize that trademark against a URL, can't be done. If so, MicroSoft would have nailed people left and right for infringement upon IE (can we say IE7.com and IE8.com) as well as several other websites that utilize trademarked MS product names LOL. Several other companies have tried this as well and failed. As for Twitter TOS and developer rights. Nope, can't sue for voilation of a TOS on a public API either. You can suspend suspect activities and revoke developer/company rights but you can't actually file suite on a TOS violation of this type. Lots of statuatory presidence on the subject. On point 3, 80% rule along with the fact that you have clearly labeled in valid font size the non-affiliation with Twitter again negates this point in most cases. Actually, about the only thing they could get you for would be Slander/Liable if you were spreading bad publicity about the company that was un-true. In that case, they could get you for everything your worth LOL. Then again, being a public entity they would fall under the same laws as the movie stars and other public figures and would basically have to suck it up in the end. - Jeremy Apparently you fail to recall the MikeRoweSoft.com case. Twitter can most definitely enforce their trademark here. ∞ Andy Badera ∞ This email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private ∞ Google me: http://www.google.com/search?q=(andrew+badera)+OR+(andy+ badera)
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
First they came for the Spammers and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Spammer. Oh really, spammers being banned equated to the Holocuast, perspective required. On Aug 12, 10:55 am, Duane Roelands duane.roela...@gmail.com wrote: Are any of these developers -selling- their products? You are. Are any of these developers violating the Terms of Service? You are. Just because another website has Twitter in the name doesn't make their situation the same as yours. You made a tool for spammers. You get caught. Get over it. On Aug 12, 10:14 am, Dean Collins d...@cognation.net wrote: So has anyone heard from or know any of the other developers? Did they also get an email last night?
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
I pity the fool who wakes up to this thread in the morning :-)
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Hi Dean Well yes. It's like saying if I send one email that's okay but if I bulk email 100 people then it's regarded as wrong. Yes I'm afraid it is. You see from a users point of view, receiving lots of follower notifications from people who aren't interested in you drowns out the really useful ones of someone who is genuinely interested. It really soils the experience of Twitter and quite naturally their trying to rectify it. I can understand how you feel Dean - CD is not the nice way of doing things, it's certainly not friendly. Again, I know it's unpleasant for you, but if you can turn your anger into motivated action you will a) avoid making enemies of Twitter b) come up with another application in no time. Learning the APIs etc. would have been the bulk of your efforts. Now that's done why not refocus onto another one, you'll spend less energy doing that then dealing with CD. Social networking is a big area still and we haven't finished yet, so keep on the board and ride the wave, if nothing else try and chalk it up to experience and you'll be the wiser for it. Good luck with future endeavors Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 16:05, Dean Collins wrote: Hi Neil So i guess what Fenwick and Webb are saying is if i manually log into twitter and click to follow each of the people who just wrote about my application thats ok http://search.twitter.com/search?q=mytwitterbutler BUT if i use a little .Net application to do it Then I'm breaking the ‘Law’ and must - Cease and Desist Cheers, Dean From: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com [mailto:twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Neil Ellis Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:52 AM To: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com Subject: [twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!! Seriously Dean I'm afraid that your application (like a mass mailer) is the kind of the thing that spammers use to fill up our followers list with a bunch of real estate agents and 'social media experts'. Mass following actually harms the community on Twitter which is the reason that you will be finding less sympathy than you expected. Obviously you're bright enough to write applications, rather than dig yourself a hole on this list, why not take a step back and consider what else you could do with those skills. I'm sure you could write an application that contributed to the community more now that you have the experience of writing Twitter applications. I understand that you must be feeling upset, who wouldn't when they get legalese schtick through the email. It's not nice. But they have a point and you have the opportunity to graciously accept the situation and move on to your next idea. The most valuable thing is your skill and entrepreneurial spirit, not a micro app. I wish you good luck in your endeavors. peace Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 15:14, Dean Collins wrote: So has anyone heard from or know any of the other developers? Did they also get an email last night? twittercounter.com twitterfall.com twitter-friends.com www.twitter.ca www.tinytwitter.com www.twitterbuttons.com www.accessibletwitter.com twitterfeed.com twitterpatterns.com www.twitterlocal.net www.twitterbackgrounds.com twittergallery.com twitteranalyzer.com whentwitterisdown.com destroytwitter.com blog.twittervotereport.com twitter.pbworks.com twitter.polldaddy.com twitter.alltop.com twitter.infinityward.com twitter.grader.com Regards, Dean Collins d...@mytwitterbutler.com +1-212-203-4357 New York +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). +44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial). From: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com [mailto:twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jeremy Darling Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:12 AM To: twitter-development-talk@googlegroups.com Subject: [twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!! Actually, I recall it perfectly well. MS threatened action against Mike Roe (a Canadian student as I recall) for his development company. The case was settled OUT OF COURT, with MS basically having to purchase his domain. The same could be applied to this product where Twitter can not demand the URL but they can wait for it to expire and snag it or offer to buy out the owner. On the point about aggressively pursuing because they have to. That's a complete and total cop-out, if that were the case then Twitter would be going after ALL offenders and not the select bad guys, if someone gives twitter a warm fuzzy they view it as ok. According to your statement (and I reviewed the laws a while back on trademarks but will go look again) they can loose their trademark for this action alone. - Jeremy PS: I'm still not a lawyer, I still hate the product, but I still hate the thought more. Of course, their CD order is little more than a notice to disconnect :) On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Andrew Badera and...@badera.us wrote
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Dewald Honest question honest answer If someone follows me, I'd like to find out about them and see if I'd like to follow them, I'd like to consider becoming friends with this person. How can I do that if 80% of my follows are Real Estate Agents. It wastes my time, it's annoying and pollutes my inbox. I think you'll find quite a few people are tired of this annoyance. I'd like to get to know my followers not have 3000 numpties following me. ATB Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 18:07, Dewald Pretorius wrote: Bob, Perhaps I'm being daft, but how can someone following you be spam or wrong, regardless of whether it is manual or auto follow? If you don't follow them, you don't see their tweets, and they cannot DM you. In other words, what does it matter if 50,000 undesirable accounts follow you, except for perhaps a minor personal irritation? Do you want to be selective about who is allowed and who is not allowed to follow you? Dewald On Aug 12, 1:50 pm, Bob Fishel b...@bobforthejob.com wrote: In this case spamming is ALWAYS wrong. Again you need to allow for definitions. Asking to receive announcements from Dell and then having Dell follow you is on thing. But having someone autofollow you with 800 different PC resellers becasue you posted a tweet saying look at the great deal #Dell has today is WRONG.
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
All this stuff about following being equated to spamming is nonsense. really, glad you cleared that up ;-)
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Good morning Abraham ;-) On 12 Aug 2009, at 18:20, Abraham Williams wrote: Me :( 2009/8/12 Neil Ellis neilellis1...@googlemail.com I pity the fool who wakes up to this thread in the morning :-) -- Abraham Williams | Community Evangelist | http://web608.org Hacker | http://abrah.am | http://twitter.com/abraham Project | http://fireeagle.labs.poseurtech.com This email is: [ ] blogable [x] ask first [ ] private. Sent from Fairbanks, Alaska, United States
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Someone remind me again who was it that saw this record breaking thread coming . :-) I think the only thing that hasn't been discussed is the very nature of life itself :-) peace Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 23:04, Gonzalo Larralde wrote: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Dean Collinsd...@cognation.net wrote: Any other developer being sued by Twitter today? Basically it's a WINDOWS XP .net application, if you have a mac and you stupidly purchase this and it doesn't workgo bitch to Steve Jobs. [0] If you buy this and it doesn't do what you thought it was supposed togo bitch to your mother. [0] I hope they win. ¬¬ [0] http://www.mytwitterbutler.com/ @ About Me
[twitter-dev] Re: Following Churn: Specific guidance needed
And a 'X people blocked this person' next to their details in the follows notification would help to identify which are spammers. ATB Neil On 11 Aug 2009, at 18:55, Kevin Mesiab wrote: This entire debate focuses on the wrong side of the coin. Follow churn exists as a side effect of the improper Twitter culture of reciprocating follows blindly. If users paid due diligence to those they follow and only followed those people who demonstrate some value to them, follower churn would not exist. Period. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 7:51 AM, owkaye owk...@gmail.com wrote: Would be very helpful to know the definition of quick as relates to following churn suspensions. As Cameron pointed out earlier, as soon as they do that, the following churners will adjust their methods to be just inside that definition of OK. This seems like a really short-sighted reason for NOT clarifying what's acceptable and what's not. If it's acceptable then who cares if the churners adjust their methods? At least everyone will know how to avoid problems for a change, right? -- Kevin Mesiab CEO, Mesiab Labs L.L.C. http://twitter.com/kmesiab http://mesiablabs.com http://retweet.com
[twitter-dev] Re: Following Churn: Specific guidance needed
And if followed by an obvious spammer should we not block them and then let Twitter make it clear to other users how many times they've blocked. A few black marks against a spammer and they won't get followed back anymore. This is like the feedback rating in ebay it encourages you to behave yourself. I agree with Kevin, this should be a human solution. I feel that a policy of banning people who Twitter thinks are spammers because of a metric rather than users who have my realistic reasons is a dangerous precendence and just causes grief and anguish. Let people self police in the first instance and then correct the exception circumstances. But hey it's your show ;-) just trying to give constructive feedback. Seriously I can understand the temptation to automate but this is a slippery slope indeed. ATB Neil On 11 Aug 2009, at 19:36, Kevin Mesiab wrote: Step 1.) turn off email notifications (legitimat, but easily mitigated problem). Step 2.) getting spammed? Unfollow that user (question why you followed them in the first place). On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Kevin Mesiab ke...@mesiablabs.com wrote: And here lies the slippery slope. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:25 AM, owkaye owk...@gmail.com wrote: If users paid due diligence to those they follow and only followed those people who demonstrate some value to them, follower churn would not exist. Period. Obviously they won't so maybe it's time to deal with reality rather than dreaming of a perfect world. Owkaye -- Kevin Mesiab CEO, Mesiab Labs L.L.C. http://twitter.com/kmesiab http://mesiablabs.com http://retweet.com -- Kevin Mesiab CEO, Mesiab Labs L.L.C. http://twitter.com/kmesiab http://mesiablabs.com http://retweet.com
[twitter-dev] Re: FW: Twitter is Suing me!!!
Sorry Cameron :-) it's just so easy to hit that button :-) peace Neil On 12 Aug 2009, at 04:02, Cameron Kaiser wrote: Could we please not quote the *entire* *original* *message* with every reply? -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- They told me I was gullible ... and I believed them. ---
[twitter-dev] Re: OK Seriously People
Nice story Adam, however the band are actually trying to run a business, not doing this for love/free. I can assure you the investors in Twitter will be looking to turn profit. Of course if the band are laid up then the danger is the hotdog man (and all his customers) will go to another band that are still playing and have fans. That's why I'm 100% confident all that can be done is being done, cos plenty of people at Twitter will know how fickle a user base can be. Good luck guys, I know what these situations are like and it's hard on you all - I actually hope you guys are getting some rest because it doesn't sound like this is a 100 yard sprint. I also hope someone is making sure the ops/devs aren't reading this list (or getting emails etc) - stress doesn't help productivity in my experience. Knowing what is at stake does. Again good luck chaps, I know how the trenches feel :-) And of course it does suck for the rest of us too, alas that is business. ATB Neil On 9 Aug 2009, at 18:24, Adam Cloud wrote: ***Scenario*** A band broadcasts their music on a radio station all the time, and people are able to freely tune into it, or go buy their music. They go and play in a city park for free every day just because it's a much nicer experience for the listener then to be just sitting at home listening on their radio. You as an up and coming entrepreneur go buy a hotdog drink stand and setup camp in that park to make some cash off of the flow of people who come to see this free event every day. You being there, giving the ability for people to eat drink without leaving the park allows for more of this bands songs to be heard, in effect increasing the chance that their music might be purchased. So you're essentially helping them, by taking advantage of them for your business. The band gets in a car crash, and alot of equipment is damaged to the point of not being able to be used, along with their main source of transportation. The band starts working to find and replace all that is damaged in their equipment and for their car. Now you can imagine that little hotdog stand guy standing on their doorstep while they recover yelling profanities and how they should be skipping the shipping company who's delivering their parts and get their parts themselves to save time. Yelling that they shouldn't be sleeping, they should be working on their band van right now to make sure it can take them back to the park so he can make some money. People aren't coming to my stand anymore!!! They're going to fast food restaurants and going home. WTF i sold my wife for this stand!!! Now of course, this little hotdog stand man may not have really sold his wife, depending upon which one of you people who are still up in arms about this was put in his place, but i think you get my points. The band could easily move to a venue that has their own hotdog/ drink stand making your services not necessary, but instead of doing that and capitalizing on the profit they could get from that, they're still planning on going back to the same park they do their free shows at, and allowing you to continue earning your money. And this concludes storytime. :) Happy sunday! (Relax!) On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Terry Jones te...@jon.es wrote: Stuart == Stuart stut...@gmail.com writes: Stuart * I can't believe you lot don't realise that constantly demanding Stuart status updates, while certainly important to you, is little more Stuart than a distraction for those who are actually fighting the good Stuart fight. I woke up this morning with the thought that the Twitter mailing list has now become part of the DDoS. What percentage of the people complaining loudly and increasing the general stress/pressure level are actually bots? :-) Terry
[twitter-dev] Re: OK Seriously People
What did you guys do in 2007? Twitter was down all the time then. Your blood pressure must have been through the roof with weekly visits to a shrink if you responded this way every time it went down. How many people had bet their business/livelihood on Twitter in 2007? Compassion all-round Dave, I feel for the businesses who are suffering as much as Twitter themselves. The amount of hassle Twitter are getting is probably no less than the downstream hassle to the 3rd parties. We live in a very demanding society (in the West at least). The wrongdoers in this are the DDoS people. Everyone else is collateral in someone else's stupid war. I'm surprised no government has stepped in to be honest as it's setting a hell of a precedence (who knows maybe they have). It is like a surreal tech soap opera on this list though :-) Hey maybe I could pitch this to Fox . All the best Neil dave On Aug 9, 1:48 pm, Neil Ellis neilellis1...@googlemail.com wrote: Nice story Adam, however the band are actually trying to run a business, not doing this for love/free. I can assure you the investors in Twitter will be looking to turn profit. Of course if the band are laid up then the danger is the hotdog man (and all his customers) will go to another band that are still playing and have fans. That's why I'm 100% confident all that can be done is being done, cos plenty of people at Twitter will know how fickle a user base can be. Good luck guys, I know what these situations are like and it's hard on you all - I actually hope you guys are getting some rest because it doesn't sound like this is a 100 yard sprint. I also hope someone is making sure the ops/devs aren't reading this list (or getting emails etc) - stress doesn't help productivity in my experience. Knowing what is at stake does. Again good luck chaps, I know how the trenches feel :-) And of course it does suck for the rest of us too, alas that is business. ATB Neil On 9 Aug 2009, at 18:24, Adam Cloud wrote: ***Scenario*** A band broadcasts their music on a radio station all the time, and people are able to freely tune into it, or go buy their music. They go and play in a city park for free every day just because it's a much nicer experience for the listener then to be just sitting at home listening on their radio. You as an up and coming entrepreneur go buy a hotdog drink stand and setup camp in that park to make some cash off of the flow of people who come to see this free event every day. You being there, giving the ability for people to eat drink without leaving the park allows for more of this bands songs to be heard, in effect increasing the chance that their music might be purchased. So you're essentially helping them, by taking advantage of them for your business. The band gets in a car crash, and alot of equipment is damaged to the point of not being able to be used, along with their main source of transportation. The band starts working to find and replace all that is damaged in their equipment and for their car. Now you can imagine that little hotdog stand guy standing on their doorstep while they recover yelling profanities and how they should be skipping the shipping company who's delivering their parts and get their parts themselves to save time. Yelling that they shouldn't be sleeping, they should be working on their band van right now to make sure it can take them back to the park so he can make some money. People aren't coming to my stand anymore!!! They're going to fast food restaurants and going home. WTF i sold my wife for this stand!!! Now of course, this little hotdog stand man may not have really sold his wife, depending upon which one of you people who are still up in arms about this was put in his place, but i think you get my points. The band could easily move to a venue that has their own hotdog/ drink stand making your services not necessary, but instead of doing that and capitalizing on the profit they could get from that, they're still planning on going back to the same park they do their free shows at, and allowing you to continue earning your money. And this concludes storytime. :) Happy sunday! (Relax!) On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Terry Jones te...@jon.es wrote: Stuart == Stuart stut...@gmail.com writes: Stuart * I can't believe you lot don't realise that constantly demanding Stuart status updates, while certainly important to you, is little more Stuart than a distraction for those who are actually fighting the good Stuart fight. I woke up this morning with the thought that the Twitter mailing list has now become part of the DDoS. What percentage of the people complaining loudly and increasing the general stress/pressure level are actually bots? :-) Terry
[twitter-dev] Re: OK Seriously People
Well there was the Twitter TV program, maybe this is it. Maybe we're in a Borat style movie already ;-) I think it should be in the style of 24 : I can see it now, clock counting down - Jack Bauer torturing sysadmin; developers being exposed as double agents oh the intrigue :-) Of course if it was 24 it would turn out that Biz Stone works for Facebook. LOL ATB Neil On 9 Aug 2009, at 20:41, David Fisher wrote: It is like a surreal tech soap opera on this list though :-) Hey maybe I could pitch this to Fox . All the best Neil DO IT! Maybe Twitter would have made a good reality show. Lots of super-dramatic angles and queues pointing at sysadmins typing at a console. :) The mailing list would be like the random room they walk into to talk to the camera. dave
[twitter-dev] Re: OK Seriously People
Or you could actually read my email, my goodness people are so rude. No threats in my email, please read again in context. Peace Neil On 9 Aug 2009, at 19:30, Scott C. Lemon wrote: Uh ... for all of you hotdog men, threatening to move on to another band that are still playing and have fans. ... PLEASE DO! I can promise you that you will not be missed by twitter, or anyone here. For all of the whiny developers who didn't plan for a rainy day ... maybe this is time for you to think about a real business plan, instead of making easy money off of an impressive free ride. Or maybe you're more worried that you are now looking bad to your fan club ... in that case you'll be a business failure no matter what. In any case, if people actually think that the appropriate people and resources aren't being applied to this situation ... you ARE ignorant. The people committed to twitter - including employees and investors - won't allow that to be the case. They have FAR more at stake than all of us combined. Lastly ... if you want to complain about problems, please take that somewhere else and share it with negative people who want to rag and complain with each other to make themselves feel better and smarter. If you have some serious questions and requests for HOW YOU CAN HELP? Well ask away ... provide suggestions ... or fly out to San Fran and beg to be let in the door and assist. And so, my fellow twitter developers: ask not what twitter can do for you - ask what you can do for twitter. :-) On Aug 9, 11:48 am, Neil Ellis neilellis1...@googlemail.com wrote: Nice story Adam, however the band are actually trying to run a business, not doing this for love/free. I can assure you the investors in Twitter will be looking to turn profit. Of course if the band are laid up then the danger is the hotdog man (and all his customers) will go to another band that are still playing and have fans. That's why I'm 100% confident all that can be done is being done, cos plenty of people at Twitter will know how fickle a user base can be. Good luck guys, I know what these situations are like and it's hard on you all - I actually hope you guys are getting some rest because it doesn't sound like this is a 100 yard sprint. I also hope someone is making sure the ops/devs aren't reading this list (or getting emails etc) - stress doesn't help productivity in my experience. Knowing what is at stake does. Again good luck chaps, I know how the trenches feel :-) And of course it does suck for the rest of us too, alas that is business. ATB Neil On 9 Aug 2009, at 18:24, Adam Cloud wrote: ***Scenario*** A band broadcasts their music on a radio station all the time, and people are able to freely tune into it, or go buy their music. They go and play in a city park for free every day just because it's a much nicer experience for the listener then to be just sitting at home listening on their radio. You as an up and coming entrepreneur go buy a hotdog drink stand and setup camp in that park to make some cash off of the flow of people who come to see this free event every day. You being there, giving the ability for people to eat drink without leaving the park allows for more of this bands songs to be heard, in effect increasing the chance that their music might be purchased. So you're essentially helping them, by taking advantage of them for your business. The band gets in a car crash, and alot of equipment is damaged to the point of not being able to be used, along with their main source of transportation. The band starts working to find and replace all that is damaged in their equipment and for their car. Now you can imagine that little hotdog stand guy standing on their doorstep while they recover yelling profanities and how they should be skipping the shipping company who's delivering their parts and get their parts themselves to save time. Yelling that they shouldn't be sleeping, they should be working on their band van right now to make sure it can take them back to the park so he can make some money. People aren't coming to my stand anymore!!! They're going to fast food restaurants and going home. WTF i sold my wife for this stand!!! Now of course, this little hotdog stand man may not have really sold his wife, depending upon which one of you people who are still up in arms about this was put in his place, but i think you get my points. The band could easily move to a venue that has their own hotdog/ drink stand making your services not necessary, but instead of doing that and capitalizing on the profit they could get from that, they're still planning on going back to the same park they do their free shows at, and allowing you to continue earning your money. And this concludes storytime. :) Happy sunday! (Relax!) On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Terry Jones te...@jon.es wrote: Stuart == Stuart stut...@gmail.com writes: Stuart * I can't believe you lot don't realise
[twitter-dev] Re: HotTweeters
:-) To the point Kevin! Now to waste time We should remember that __investors__ created the pain of the .com by applying anti-evolutionary forces i.e.. over investing in lots of Dodos. However on a technical level we will, like evolution, go through these cycles. In the case of Twitter what we will have is maybe a few hundred micro-sites created. Of which say 10-15 will be solid ideas that last for years, of which they will be consolidated into 1 or 2 actual sites in the next 5-10 years. This is the history of tech (home computer boom anyone?), it's how ideas _evolve_ bring on the boom!!! The .com boom (outside of the silly financial side) allowed us to experiment with a whole bunch of crazy ideas of which a small proportion survived and the functionality is still being consolidated into a handful of very useful sites today, so it was with social networks (and still to an extent is), so it will be with the realtime web. Evolution is messy, it's not rational and not scientific - it's trial and error - however in the long run it can be staggeringly efficient - human beings out of soup, I mean crikey!!! So yes, lots more small micro-sites please. ATB Neil On 20 Jul 2009, at 14:10, Kevin Mesiab wrote: While others might waste time educating you with a proper debate, some of us are busy profiting on page views. On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:03 AM, Christian Heilmann chris.heilm...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin Mesiab wrote: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/hottweeters.com/ That for starters Pageviews, the success metrics for people who want instant satisfaction. http://siteanalytics.compete.com/rapidshare.com/ Do we really need more sites that create more traffic for Twitter without a single chance to become a business or help the content quality? Burning money was fun during the first .com boom, can we please stop now? -- Kevin Mesiab CEO, Mesiab Labs L.L.C. http://twitter.com/kmesiab http://mesiablabs.com http://retweet.com
[twitter-dev] Re: New app: twivert.com
Wow now I get spammed by people arguing about spam - and I'm now adding to that spam - oh the irony! ;-) Seriously though I've received more unwanted emails arguing about product announcements then I get product announcements - not sure where the harm in a one off product announcement was anyway. Peace, as they say, Neil. On 14 Jul 2009, at 19:35, Joel Strellner wrote: I think its fine as long as it is done only once for the app and the user interacts here more than just for purpose of telling people about the new app. On Jul 14, 10:19 am, Chad Etzel jazzyc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Andrew Baderaand...@badera.us wrote: When did this dev list become a self-promotion list? Can we knock this garbage off already? I get enough spam ON Twitter these days, I don't need it coming into my inbox via the dev list. I thought one of the purposes of the list was to promote/announce your new apps when they go live so that other devs are aware of new stuff coming out. Whether you like the app or not is up to you... -Chad
[twitter-dev] Re: Security Best Practices
On a completely separate note, your website is stunning, did you design it yourself? If not may I ask who were your designers. All the best Neil http://www.peepwl.com On 1 Jul 2009, at 20:22, Support wrote: Matt, Thanks for weighing in and hopefully taming this snarl. As the person who might have posed the question originally, I figured I at least owed a bit of constructive critique. What can we change about OAuth that would make this better? 1) User experience - it's been echoed a number of times in this board, so i won't beat the dead horse... much...but basic auth *is* much simpler for the user. The reason is obvious: oauth requires a browser. In many platforms (especially mobile) that's a painful burden. The PIN code seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. It solves some problems, but at a further cost to the user experience, giving an even larger advantage to existing basic-auth apps. You've made the pill even more effective, but so bitter that your patients can't swallow it. Providing a scheme that does not require a browser is an obvious way to cut this gordian knot. 2) Application authentication - if your goal is to *identify* each open source application in a *trusted* way, then I think you could be in for an uphill battle. There are obvious technical challenges, however the larger problem is that in OSS there is no way to define each application. There will be many binaries for different platforms and people will fork it on github just because they can. You cannot identify each of these variants as the same when they could be different. And that places a burden on the user experience. When a user grants access to application x -- what does that mean exactly? Just that binary? Just this release? Only from a specific trusted company? How do you explain to the user where this subtle line is drawn in a box he'll click through in less than a second? I personally don't see an obvious solution to this problem. It seems to be a UI challenge and a technical challenge. In cases like that it seems prudent to question your goals and check feasibility. Isaiah YourHead Software supp...@yourhead.com http://www.yourhead.com On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Matt Sanford wrote: Hello again, I do not recommend having individual end users register for consumer keys/secrets [1] under any circumstances. So, with that out of the way, let us focus the discussion a bit more. What can we change about OAuth that would make this better? A complete technical [2][3] discussion on what we could add that would make this better is welcomed. More than welcome, it's pretty much required before we can help. The PIN flow was the first addition to address the inherent insecurity of the consumer key/secret all desktop applications [3]. This stopped applications from being able to collect tokens by using the consumer key/secret and a confidence scam (phishing like GoodApp needs you to re-approve us). It sounds like there is a fervent need for something more … what do people suggest? We're working hard on the problem but many of you are working from the consumer standpoint and probably have great feedback. Please, take your time and write a well thought out reply. One- line snarky comments, while fun to write and sometimes to read, steal time from everyone reading the list, including all of the Twitter API engineers. They also make the list look less inviting to new comers. Thanks; – Matt Sanford / @mzsanford Twitter Dev [1] - People installing an instance of your server-side app are not 'end users', but other developers [2] - Not open-source hand waving. [3] - Closed source desktop apps have the same problem. Reverse engineering is not stopped when you don't include the source. On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:33 AM, DWRoelands wrote: Actually, since Twitter has said that Basic Auth will eventually go away, OAuth is going to be the only choice for authentication. Twitter has forced the choice by implementing OAuth in the way that they did. Why should a user who chooses to support open source by using an open- source Twitter client be punished by having to go through extra hoops that users of closed-source clients don't have to endure? Forcing users of open source Twitter clients to register their individual installations as Twitter applications is not a viable solution. Matt Sanford has even said so. No one is asking for easy. I just want open source Twitter desktop clients to be able to compete with closed-source versions when it comes to security. Right now, that's not possible because of Twitter's implementation of OAuth. Regards, Duane On Jul 1, 11:23 am, Andrew Badera and...@badera.us wrote: But that's the choice you're forced to make by OAuth, not Twitter. And it is YOUR choice. Personally, I
[twitter-dev] Re: off topic
Yep my mistake, will contact you off line. On 1 Jul 2009, at 20:38, Isaiah Carew wrote: yep, just me, thanks, isaiah p.s. subject changed to protect the on-topic folks. @isaiah for more. ;-) On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Neil Ellis wrote: On a completely separate note, your website is stunning, did you design it yourself? If not may I ask who were your designers. All the best Neil http://www.peepwl.com On 1 Jul 2009, at 20:22, Support wrote: Matt, Thanks for weighing in and hopefully taming this snarl. As the person who might have posed the question originally, I figured I at least owed a bit of constructive critique. What can we change about OAuth that would make this better? 1) User experience - it's been echoed a number of times in this board, so i won't beat the dead horse... much...but basic auth *is* much simpler for the user. The reason is obvious: oauth requires a browser. In many platforms (especially mobile) that's a painful burden. The PIN code seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. It solves some problems, but at a further cost to the user experience, giving an even larger advantage to existing basic-auth apps. You've made the pill even more effective, but so bitter that your patients can't swallow it. Providing a scheme that does not require a browser is an obvious way to cut this gordian knot. 2) Application authentication - if your goal is to *identify* each open source application in a *trusted* way, then I think you could be in for an uphill battle. There are obvious technical challenges, however the larger problem is that in OSS there is no way to define each application. There will be many binaries for different platforms and people will fork it on github just because they can. You cannot identify each of these variants as the same when they could be different. And that places a burden on the user experience. When a user grants access to application x -- what does that mean exactly? Just that binary? Just this release? Only from a specific trusted company? How do you explain to the user where this subtle line is drawn in a box he'll click through in less than a second? I personally don't see an obvious solution to this problem. It seems to be a UI challenge and a technical challenge. In cases like that it seems prudent to question your goals and check feasibility. Isaiah YourHead Software supp...@yourhead.com http://www.yourhead.com On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Matt Sanford wrote: Hello again, I do not recommend having individual end users register for consumer keys/secrets [1] under any circumstances. So, with that out of the way, let us focus the discussion a bit more. What can we change about OAuth that would make this better? A complete technical [2][3] discussion on what we could add that would make this better is welcomed. More than welcome, it's pretty much required before we can help. The PIN flow was the first addition to address the inherent insecurity of the consumer key/secret all desktop applications [3]. This stopped applications from being able to collect tokens by using the consumer key/secret and a confidence scam (phishing like GoodApp needs you to re-approve us). It sounds like there is a fervent need for something more … what do people suggest? We're working hard on the problem but many of you are working from the consumer standpoint and probably have great feedback. Please, take your time and write a well thought out reply. One- line snarky comments, while fun to write and sometimes to read, steal time from everyone reading the list, including all of the Twitter API engineers. They also make the list look less inviting to new comers. Thanks; – Matt Sanford / @mzsanford Twitter Dev [1] - People installing an instance of your server-side app are not 'end users', but other developers [2] - Not open-source hand waving. [3] - Closed source desktop apps have the same problem. Reverse engineering is not stopped when you don't include the source. On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:33 AM, DWRoelands wrote: Actually, since Twitter has said that Basic Auth will eventually go away, OAuth is going to be the only choice for authentication. Twitter has forced the choice by implementing OAuth in the way that they did. Why should a user who chooses to support open source by using an open- source Twitter client be punished by having to go through extra hoops that users of closed-source clients don't have to endure? Forcing users of open source Twitter clients to register their individual installations as Twitter applications is not a viable solution. Matt Sanford has even said so. No one is asking for easy. I just want open source Twitter desktop clients to be able to compete with closed-source versions when it comes to security. Right now, that's not possible because of Twitter's implementation
[twitter-dev] Re: Profile image urls - how to update
Good call Ollie, caching? On 22 May 2009, at 11:11, Ollie Parsley wrote: I put a very quick app together called Twavatars that creates a static URL to a profile image. The request does an API call and streams the image from the S3 url. This does make the images load slower but it is only a temporary solution untill there is an official solution. So it is fine when displaying a couple of avatars, if you displaying lots of avatars it will be tediously slow. My avatar (@ollieparsley) - http://twavatars.ollieparsley.com/user/10721822?s=thumb or http://twavatars.ollieparsley.com/user/ollieparsley?s=normal http://twavatars.ollieparsley.com for more info if anyone is interested. Ollie On May 22, 2:24 am, Abraham Williams 4bra...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking of static avatar URLs... how about Gravatar[1] support? [1]http://en.gravatar.com/ On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 18:14, Doug Williams d...@twitter.com wrote: Thanks for your patience guys -- we realize the benefits of predictable static URLs. It's unfortunately kind of back-burner work but we're getting to it. As most of you can tell, the image uploading logic needs a lot of love. Cheers, Doug -- Doug Williams Twitter Platform Support http://twitter.com/dougw On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Tim Haines tmhai...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Clint, Thanks for that. I've added myself to the watchlist. I saw a similar note from 2007, so was hoping it was already done - but 'a month or so' sounds good to me. Tim. On May 21, 10:24 pm, Clint Shryock cts...@gmail.com wrote: the API team is in the process of re-engineering this functionality: in the future the current profile image will have a static URL.see: http://code.google.com/p/twitter-api/issues/detail?id=497#c8 +Clint On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:11 AM, Tim Haines tmhai...@gmail.com wrote: Hey there, I'm caching profile image urls. I'm finding quite a bit of churn, and have started wondering how I'm going to keep them up to date. Is there anyway to predict or determine a profile image url from a screen name or something? The url's provided all seem to contain part of the original file name - which of course is impossible to guess. If there's not a way to determine them from the screen name, is there an easy way to get a bulk update of the image urls? Cheers, Tim. -- Abraham Williams |http://the.hackerconundrum.com Hacker |http://abrah.am|http://twitter.com/abraham Project |http://fireeagle.labs.poseurtech.com This email is: [ ] blogable [x] ask first [ ] private. Sent from San Francisco, California, United States
