Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:51:02 + (UTC), Jarno Suni wrote:
>I have tried to make my script safe. Besides it has an optional
>simulation mode: no files or packages will be removed, when using it;
>the script forces to run the simulation mode as normal user. And the
>script has a bug tracker in Launchpad, so people can easily find known
>issues with the script.  

Don't worry, I don't have concerns against anybodies or your scripts.
As Gunnar, my opinion is, that the warning paragraph of the Wiki should
be completely removed. I tried to workaround by editing the paragraph
from "on your own risk" to "ask if you don't understand the content",
but it's definitively better that Gunnar removed it, especially since
my workaround was written in broken English. I usually try to edit
technically issues and not to write long explanations in English. This
is completely unrelated to your script. I just read the link you posted
and as a member of the documentation team, I edit Wikis, if I notice
something and assuming I have got the time to do so.

It's exactly my point that the community notices mistakes and will
correct them, e.b. by reporting bugs, or by disagreeing on a mailing
list, ask Ubuntu, etc. or editing the Wiki.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 6:23 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
>  wrote:


> Some advices, especially from the Ubuntu community, on official Ubuntu
> channels, are encouraging novices to learn. Those sites are monitored by
> the Ubuntu community. Even blogs that are not official Ubuntu
> channels, aren't necessarily bad.
> 
> IMO at least
> 
> "Cryptic Shell Commands
> 
> There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help sites
> and search engines that promise to remove older kernels. Copy-and-paste
> mysterious incantations into your system at your own risk."
> 
> should read
> 
> "Shell commands and scripts
> 
> There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too.
> Before you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
> official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to ensure
> that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with hints from
> websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu community."


I have tried to make my script safe. Besides it has an optional simulation 
mode: no files or packages will be removed, when using it; the script forces to 
run the simulation mode as normal user. And the script has a bug tracker in 
Launchpad, so people can easily find known issues with the script.

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 18:40:01 +0200, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
>I don't think there is a need for that kind of qualification at an 
>individual page in the community help wiki, so I just removed the
>whole section.

Full ACK![1]

I wanted to remove it right now, but you already have done it :), thank
you.

Regards,
Ralf

[1]
"actually I would completely prefer to remove this warning, but
since another author thinks it is required to warn against other help
sites, I guess at least editing it, to make it sound less negative is
appropriate, since at least ask Ubuntu and Ubuntu mailing list archives,
are monitored by the community and usually secure sources of
information. So "on your own risk", should IMO read "ask if you
don't understand the content"." -
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2016-October/017083.html

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Gunnar Hjalmarsson 

On 2016-10-15 17:29, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:22:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

Some advices, especially from the Ubuntu community, on official
Ubuntu channels, are encouraging novices to learn. Those sites are
monitored by the Ubuntu community. Even blogs that are not official
Ubuntu channels, aren't necessarily bad.

IMO at least

"Cryptic Shell Commands

There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help
sites and search engines that promise to remove older kernels.
Copy-and-paste mysterious incantations into your system at your own
risk."

should read

"Shell commands and scripts

There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too. Before
you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to
ensure that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with
hints from websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu
community."


"Send a request to this channel"! Which channel?

"To ensure that you would do the right thing"!

What on earth are you talking about? There are thousands of commands, 
code snippets and scripts in the community help wiki. There is no 
"channel", and there is no community or individuals within the community 
who will validate the accuracy of such commands or code. Using at your 
own risk is always implied.



PS:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels?action=diff=21=20

 If you disagree, feel free to revert to the previous version,


I don't think there is a need for that kind of qualification at an 
individual page in the community help wiki, so I just removed the whole 
section.


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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 16:09:42 + (UTC), Jarno Suni wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 6:55 PM, wrote:  
>> I think this is a form of vandalism Ralf. A paranoid message about
>> how users must double check the correct source of whatever script
>> they use. Someone points you to a page he's done and you immediately
>> start to edit it? Because you know better? Jeez...
>
>FWIW, actually I have not written that part of the page. That is Ian
>Weissers' text.
>https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels?action=diff=10=9
>  

JFTR I didn't claim that you have written it ;), Xen claimed you have
done the site. However, even Xen is free to revert it. If Xen wants to
discuss it, there's an appropriate list and I'm even not subscribed to
it, so Xen won't be annoyed by me.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
List owners, could you please ask Xen to stop stalking?

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:55:04 +0200, Xen wrote:
>Ralf Mardorf schreef op 15-10-2016 17:22:
>
>> "Cryptic Shell Commands
>> 
>> There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help
>> sites and search engines that promise to remove older kernels.
>> Copy-and-paste mysterious incantations into your system at your own
>> risk."
>> 
>> should read
>> 
>> "Shell commands and scripts
>> 
>> There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too.
>> Before you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
>> official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to ensure
>> that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with hints
>> from websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu community."
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Ralf  
>
>I think this is a form of vandalism Ralf. A paranoid message about how 
>users must double check the correct source of whatever script they
>use. Someone points you to a page he's done and you immediately start
>to edit it? Because you know better? Jeez...

No, actually I would completely prefer to remove this warning, but since
another author thinks it is required to warn against other help sites,
I guess at least editing it, to make it sound less negative is
appropriate, since at least ask Ubuntu and Ubuntu mailing list archives,
are monitored by the community and usually secure sources of
information. So "on your own risk", should IMO read "ask if you
don't understand the content".

However, stop trolling!

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 6:55 PM, Xen  wrote:


> I think this is a form of vandalism Ralf. A paranoid message about how 
> users must double check the correct source of whatever script they use. 
> Someone points you to a page he's done and you immediately start to edit 
> it? Because you know better? Jeez...


FWIW, actually I have not written that part of the page. That is Ian Weissers' 
text.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels?action=diff=10=9

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Xen 

Ralf Mardorf schreef op 15-10-2016 17:22:


"Cryptic Shell Commands

There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help sites
and search engines that promise to remove older kernels. Copy-and-paste
mysterious incantations into your system at your own risk."

should read

"Shell commands and scripts

There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too.
Before you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to ensure
that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with hints from
websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu community."

Regards,
Ralf


I think this is a form of vandalism Ralf. A paranoid message about how 
users must double check the correct source of whatever script they use. 
Someone points you to a page he's done and you immediately start to edit 
it? Because you know better? Jeez...


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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Gunnar Hjalmarsson 

On 2016-10-15 15:25, Jarno Suni wrote:

On Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 AM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson
 wrote: However, you won't show anybody the
script unless you get paid enough money in advance. Did I get it
right? If I did, it's a very odd 'offer' to an open source
community.


No. I'll possibly get paid by Bountysource only after I have
published the code and it has been accepted by backers as a solution
to the issue. To be more specific, refer to
https://github.com/bountysource/core/wiki/Frequently-Asked-Questions


Ok, thanks for the clarification. So it's not "in advance", but IMO it's 
still an odd arrangement for this kind of help script.


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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:22:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:06:02 + (UTC), Jarno Suni wrote:
>>> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 4:37 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
>>> Just to mention one link out of trillions:
>>> 
>>> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/remove-old-kernels-ubuntu-16-04/
>>> 
>>
>>The substance of that blog post is copied from the Ubuntu Community
>>documentation page mainly I have written:
>>https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels  
>
>The link I posted IMO is straight forward. The Ubuntu help is more
>detailed, perhaps useful if somebody should run into issues, but it
>also could scare or confuse users.
>
>Some advices, especially from the Ubuntu community, on official Ubuntu
>channels, are encouraging novices to learn. Those sites are monitored
>by the Ubuntu community. Even blogs that are not official Ubuntu
>channels, aren't necessarily bad.
>
>IMO at least
>
>"Cryptic Shell Commands
>
>There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help sites
>and search engines that promise to remove older kernels. Copy-and-paste
>mysterious incantations into your system at your own risk."
>
>should read
>
>"Shell commands and scripts
>
>There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too.
>Before you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
>official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to ensure
>that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with hints from
>websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu community."

PS:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels?action=diff=21=20

If you disagree, feel free to revert to the previous version, I neither
will edit again, nor discuss it at the editor's list, let alone on this
list.

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:06:02 + (UTC), Jarno Suni wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 4:37 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
>> Just to mention one link out of trillions:
>> 
>> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/remove-old-kernels-ubuntu-16-04/ 
>>  
>
>The substance of that blog post is copied from the Ubuntu Community
>documentation page mainly I have written:
>https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels

The link I posted IMO is straight forward. The Ubuntu help is more
detailed, perhaps useful if somebody should run into issues, but it also
could scare or confuse users.

Some advices, especially from the Ubuntu community, on official Ubuntu
channels, are encouraging novices to learn. Those sites are monitored by
the Ubuntu community. Even blogs that are not official Ubuntu
channels, aren't necessarily bad.

IMO at least

"Cryptic Shell Commands

There are various cryptic shell incantations floating around help sites
and search engines that promise to remove older kernels. Copy-and-paste
mysterious incantations into your system at your own risk."

should read

"Shell commands and scripts

There are help sites that help to remove older kernels, too.
Before you copy-and-paste or install scripts suggested by users of
official Ubuntu channels, send a request to this channel, to ensure
that you would do the right thing. Be even more careful with hints from
websites, that aren't monitored by the Ubuntu community."

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 4:37 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
>  wrote:

> > Jarno, please reply to the list only,

ok

> I only wanted to point out that already with minimal knowledge about
> writing shell scripts, it is possible to write a script, that fits to
> individual user needs. If a novice only wants to clean /boot, there are
> tons of scripts available, it requires not much time to get the links,
> when using a much used search engine. DKMS hooks could be tricky,
> they need to run before the kernel gets removed, or the DKMS dir and
> lib/modules need to be cleaned by rm, after the kernel was removed.
> 
> Just to mention one link out of trillions:
> 
> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/remove-old-kernels-ubuntu-16-04/


It is kind of sad that you point us to a blog post with commercials. The 
substance of that blog post is copied from the Ubuntu Community documentation 
page mainly I have written:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels
No credits nor reference mentioned, of course.

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
Jarno, please reply to the list only, otherwise I don't receive an
email including the mailing list headers, to avoid duplicates, but this
breaks mailing list reply for my MUA.

I only wanted to point out that already with minimal knowledge about
writing shell scripts, it is possible to write a script, that fits to
individual user needs. If a novice only wants to clean /boot, there are
tons of scripts available, it requires not much time to get the links,
when using a much used search engine. DKMS hooks could be tricky,
they need to run before the kernel gets removed, or the DKMS dir and
lib/modules need to be cleaned by rm, after the kernel was removed.

Just to mention one link out of trillions:

http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/remove-old-kernels-ubuntu-16-04/

Neither do I know the byobu script, nor yours.

The problem with your script seems to be, that you expect donations.
Some FLOSS Linux developers follow this concept, too, it works for
them, if they provide amazing software, that otherwise only could be
provided by companies of proprietary software, due to the required time
and manpower. Unlikely that a script to purge kernels is that important.
If a user should run into issues when using one of the already free as
in beer provided scripts, she could send a request to the users mailing
list or any other forum and would get help in fixing the script.

If you want to make money from FLOSS, you should offer something for
free as in beer, too. Assuming it should be amazing software, users of
the software are likely interested in donating. Some developers of
amazing software don't want donations, even while many users are
willing to donate. Some companies provide closed source software, that
does run on a FLOSS operating system.

In short, it's possible to make money. Regarding a script for
maintenance, you more likely could earn money by teaching.

In my experience community colleges and something like this, are more
visited by users of proprietary operating systems, for other computer
systems, there are usually non-profit clubs and for Linux non-profit
LUGs.

Good luck!
Ralf

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 AM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson  
> wrote:


> There is a script in the archive to help remove old kernels. If I had 
> several old kernels installed, I could easily install the byobu package 
> and run the purge-old-kernels command.

Well, byobu package does not have the script in Trusty; bikeshed has, but even 
that not in Precise IIRC.
Anyway, you could use a PPA.

> Now you tell us that you have written a new script to serve the same 
> purpose but with some improvements. 

Partially, yes. My script can purge new kernels, too :P purge-old-kernels is a 
pretty simple script with some bugs and limitations. E.g. 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/byobu/+bug/1569228
though there has been some attempt to fix things in git.

> However, you won't show anybody the 
> script unless you get paid enough money in advance. Did I get it right? 
> If I did, it's a very odd 'offer' to an open source community.

No. I'll possibly get paid by Bountysource only after I have published the code 
and it has been accepted by backers as a solution to the issue. To be more 
specific, refer to 
https://github.com/bountysource/core/wiki/Frequently-Asked-Questions
I wish the information on the page was correct, but according to rappo on the 
IRC channel:
Oct 11 22:55:22 actually, that needs to be updated.. 
time-limited fundraisers have been removed in favor of monthly recurring, 
salt.bountysource.com

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Saturday, October 15, 2016 3:06 PM, Jarno Suni  wrote:

> > On Friday, October 14, 2016 2:11 AM, J Fernyhough  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Doesn't `apt-get autoremove` remove old kernel versions already? (IIRC 
> it keeps three? old versions)
> 
> 
> It depends on script 
> /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal and when it is run last time, which 
> automatically 
> installed kernels it does NOT remove. `apt-get autoremove` removes other 
> packages that are automatically installed and that no package depends on, 
> too, 
> which may or may not be wanted. It may be unable to remove old kernels in 
> some 
> cases when /boot or system is full.

System may be so clogged that even dpkg is unable to remove packages, but my 
script can.

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
On Friday, October 14, 2016 2:11 AM, J Fernyhough  
wrote:

>Doesn't `apt-get autoremove` remove old kernel versions already? (IIRC it 
>keeps three? old versions)


It depends on script 
/etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal and when it is run last time, which 
automatically 
installed kernels it does NOT remove. `apt-get autoremove` removes other 
packages that are automatically installed and that no package depends on, too, 
which may or may not be wanted. It may be unable to remove old kernels in some 
cases when /boot or system is full. My script is designed to handle such cases, 
too. My script can even remove kernels that are unknown to the package 
management system.

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Re: Adding a kernel removal script to linux-base or elsewhere

2016-10-15 Thread Jarno Suni 
> On Friday, October 14, 2016 3:18 AM, Ralf Mardorf 
>  wrote:

 
> I don't need to care about dkms, an universal script must care about it,
> too. I only need to care about lowlatency, an universal script should
> be able to handle all types of kernels, including local builds. An
> universal script should provide options, for example to keep two or
> tree kernels of the same type.

My script handles different types of kernels. Including signed kernels.

And you can keep the wanted number of kernels of each series non-interactively 
(and of course interactively). For example, in Trusty, if you have 
linux-image-generic and linux-image-generic-lts-xenial installed, you could 
keep e.g. 3 latest kernels of each series. (The one that the meta kernel 
depends on and 2 earlier versions, if installed.) `purge-old-kernels` and 
`apt-get autoremove` do not have this feature.

My script does not care about dkms, if that is not done automatically by 
standard tools. I don't know what kind of care you mean.

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