Swipe transitions

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

It would be cool if LiveCode could tap into underlying OS animation functions.
For example, at WWDC 2017 Apple showed how UI KIT can support interactive and 
interruptible animations. 
These are very handy for doing smooth and interactive transitions.

LiveCoders are used to building things like transitions between screens.
But more and more OSes offer ever more sophisticated animations and transitions 
at the OS level. Users will expect the real things rather than facsimiles.

Admittedly LiveCode may have a difficult time supporting such native features, 
especially as OS vendors seek to differentiate themselves with unique features 
without direct correlates on other OSes.

Jim Lambert
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Re: Swipe transitions

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

 
 

 Swipe detection would be useful for other than the whole card too.DG2 is 
supposed to have that piece.Think of the way you can delete an email on the 
iPhone.From a detection perspective, it is the same motion.You would 
need the direction and position to take the correct action.The animation of 
the change would be quite different though since those tend to be more 
responsive and can be started and backed out of.
 
 

 
>  
> On Jul 19, 2017 at 4:17 PM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  J. Landman Gay wrote:  >  On 7/19/17 2:10 PM, Richard Gaskin via 
> use-livecode wrote:  >>  But that would only take care of the swipe of the 
> current card.  >>  We'd also need some way to assign the destination card for 
> each  >>  swipe direction.  >>   >>  What should that syntax look like, and 
> how do we discern swipe events  >>  from others on controls within the card?  
> >   >  lock screen for swipe effect  >  switch pDir  >  case "left"  >  ...  
> >  case "right"  >  ...  >  case "up"  >  ...  >  case "down"  >  ...  >  end 
> switch  >  unlock screen with swipe effect pDir Well done. I like the 
> simplicity of that. I think I was originally over-thinking it, about options 
> for specifying snap-back thresholds and more. But there's enough consistency 
> these days to decide on good defaults and just run with those. @LC Team: Can 
> we have that next Tuesday please? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems 
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web 
> _
___ ambassa...@fourthworld.com 
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>
>  
 
 
 
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Simon Smith wrote:

> I would stay with h.264 if possible - its popular and supported by
> most platforms. Having to trouble shoot video issues on an ongoing
> basis is not really fun. But yes - there is a licencing requirement
> if its being used commercially - no idea how actively it is policed.
>
> Are the video's going to be shared commercially? How will they be
> accessed etc etc etc. Depending on the video's, length and number
> of users etc ,
> there could be no actual costs incurred -
> http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Documents/avcweb.pdf and even
> if costs were to be incurred, what would be the support costs and
> possibly losses if a less popular codec was used.

Good point.

With Ogg's BSD-style license it would be ideal if it were more widely 
supported.  But as it is I'll raise the issue and let their legal team 
sort it out.  With any luck they may already have a license.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Simon Smith via use-livecode]

I would stay with h.264 if possible - its popular and supported by most
platforms. Having to trouble shoot video issues on an ongoing basis is not
really fun. But yes - there is a licencing requirement if its being used
commercially - no idea how actively it is policed.

Are the video's going to be shared commercially? How will they be accessed
etc etc etc. Depending on the video's, length and number of users etc ,
there could be no actual costs incurred -
http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Documents/avcweb.pdf and even if
costs were to be incurred, what would be the support costs and possibly
losses if a less popular codec was used.


Carpe diem

*Simon Smith*
m. +27 83 306 7862

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:13 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
> > Which means every network and independent film-maker is breaking the
> > law...
> >   because I guarantee that they're not looking at the EULA when
> > sending off their work for broadcast or theater.I see this every
> > day.
> >
> > Kinda like "don't ask don't tell" if you ask me.
> >
> > And unenforceable. They'd have to sue everyone using their product.
>
> Is that any more difficult than identifying a specific printer used to
> print a document?
>
>  our-Printer-Spying-on-/>
>
>
> > I just don't worry about this stuff when working on music or video
> > projects.
>
> In this case I'm working with a client in which my contract obliges me to
> ensure there are no copyright or patent liabilities in delivered work.
>
> I can push it off on their legal team, but as a consultant it seems useful
> to be able to suggest alternatives as well.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Swipe transitions

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 7/19/17 2:10 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> But that would only take care of the swipe of the current card.
>> We'd also need some way to assign the destination card for each
>> swipe direction.
>>
>> What should that syntax look like, and how do we discern swipe events
>> from others on controls within the card?
>
> lock screen for swipe effect
> switch pDir
>   case "left"
> ...
>   case "right"
> ...
>   case "up"
> ...
>   case "down"
> ...
> end switch
> unlock screen with swipe effect pDir

Well done. I like the simplicity of that.

I think I was originally over-thinking it, about options for specifying 
snap-back thresholds and more.  But there's enough consistency these 
days to decide on good defaults and just run with those.


@LC Team: Can we have that next Tuesday please?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Stephen Barncard wrote:

> Which means every network and independent film-maker is breaking the
> law...
>   because I guarantee that they're not looking at the EULA when
> sending off their work for broadcast or theater.I see this every
> day.
>
> Kinda like "don't ask don't tell" if you ask me.
>
> And unenforceable. They'd have to sue everyone using their product.

Is that any more difficult than identifying a specific printer used to 
print a document?





> I just don't worry about this stuff when working on music or video
> projects.

In this case I'm working with a client in which my contract obliges me 
to ensure there are no copyright or patent liabilities in delivered work.


I can push it off on their legal team, but as a consultant it seems 
useful to be able to suggest alternatives as well.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Export SVG as PNG?

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

If you have a complex svg that needs a browser to display it, you can do this 
through JavaScript.

On LiveCode Share, the SVG- powered images stack does this.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 11:47 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would simplfy that to:
> 
> export snapshot of widget "XXX" to file "XXX.png" as PNG
> 
> no need to mess around with "the rect of".
> 
> Richmond.
> 
>> On 7/19/17 6:44 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:
>> export snapshot from rect (the rect of widget 1) of widget 1 to file (
>> specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.png") as png
>> 
>> 
>> The 'of widget 1' part is the important part - that takes the object in
>> isolation rather than snapshotting the background of the card.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 4:36 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello!   Is it possible to export a svg widget to a png and retain the
>>> transparency?  If so, how would you go about doing that?
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> -Dan
>>> 
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Re: Swipe transitions

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 2:10 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
But that would only take care of the swipe of the current card.  We'd 
also need some way to assign the destination card for each swipe direction.


What should that syntax look like, and how do we discern swipe events 
from others on controls within the card?


lock screen for swipe effect
switch pDir
 case "left"
   ...
 case "right"
   ...
 case "up"
   ...
 case "down"
   ...
end switch
unlock screen with swipe effect pDir

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Which means every network and independent film-maker is breaking the law...
  because I guarantee that they're not looking at the EULA when sending off
their work for broadcast or theater.I see this every day.

Kinda like "don't ask don't tell" if you ask me.

And unenforceable. They'd have to sue everyone using their product.
To assume the two top video editing programs for independents can't be used
for professional use is ludicrous.

Who would be the 'cop' that would enforce this?

I just don't worry about this stuff when working on music or video projects.

sqb

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Colin Holgate wrote:
>
> > Are you sure that a license is needed for H.264 playback?
>
> No, encoding.
>
> > My hope is that the license is just paid by the encoder tool maker.
>
> Would be nice, but not always so.  E.g., Apple's Final Cut "Pro" (which
> only allows for non-pro use):
>
> 15. H.264/AVC Notice. To the extent that the Apple Software contains
> AVC encoding and/or decoding functionality, commercial use of
> H.264/AVC requires additional licensing and the following provision
> applies: THE AVC FUNCTIONALITY IN THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED HEREIN
> ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE OF A CONSUMER TO (i)
> ENCODE VIDEO IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AVC STANDARD ("AVC VIDEO")
> AND/OR (ii) DECODE AVC VIDEO THAT WAS ENCODED BY A CONSUMER ENGAGED
> IN A PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND/OR AVC VIDEO THAT WAS
> OBTAINED FROM A VIDEO PROVIDER LICENSED TO PROVIDE AVC VIDEO.
> INFORMATION REGARDING OTHER USES AND LICENSES MAY BE OBTAINED FROM
> MPEG LA L.L.C.
> http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/finalcutstudio2.pdf
>
>
> Similar wording is also in the Adobe Premier EULA:
>
> http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/legal/license
> s-terms/pdf/CS6.pdf
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

The copyright for x264 is GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE, but I don’t know if that 
means you can encode video for sale.
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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Forgot a setence.

Maybe he is willing to share it.

Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 22:18 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Zryip created a little intellisense plugin some years ago. 
> 
> http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin 
>   >
> 
> It´s free for users of the Excel Library.
> 
> Matthias
> 
> Matthias Rebbe
> +49 5741 31
> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu   >‌
> 
>> Am 19.07.2017 um 22:10 schrieb Todd Fabacher via use-livecode 
>> > > >>:
>> 
>> One of the single largest problems we face is resistance to LiveCode in the
>> corporate is developers. One, they are not eager to learn a new language.
>> But once I show them LiveCode, they see the simple ease and simplicity and
>> become open to the prospect. I even explain it as a way of prototyping
>> their logic in an English format.
>> 
>> But once they start coding, they outright reject it because of the complete
>> lack of IntelliSense. These people will NOT BUDGE. There is no way we are
>> going to convince them that they will have to remember the properties and
>> function names.
>> 
>> I saw in Kevin's demo of the latest version which showed that there was
>> FINALLY a list of events to choose from. This should have been there years
>> ago. You just need to look at LiveCode's competition to see progress. Xojo
>> is one example. We needed to create a RasPi app as a test, so we purchased
>> a license, and it's IDE was quite good. MUCH better than LiveCode. We also
>> use Visual Studio, which has fantastic IntelliSense.
>> 
>> Here is what they are looking for:
>> 
>> 1. Function completion. As you type it starts to match a function name, all
>> the functions so up in a list to choose from as I type.
>> 
>> 2. Function parameters. once I type a function, I can mouse over it and all
>> the parameters and a quick explanation show up.
>> 
>> 3. I understand that properties are going to be a problem because LiveCode
>> is NOT in an algebraic format like Object.Property = value. So setting the
>> properties first is an issue. How about we put in a placeholder like:
>> 
>> set the ? from field "test"
>> set the ? from widget "map"
>> 
>> Then...as soon as I put in the object type or object name for a widget, I
>> would get a pop-up with a list of properties to select from.
>> 
>> 
>> These functionalities may not be easy, but should not be difficult. Maybe
>> an IntelliSense extension, done by the community can be done? It is a major
>> barrier to entry for experienced developers to switch to. This is the #1
>> reason we can not get coders in companies to agree to LiveCode. #2 was Git,
>> but that seems to be solved with community involvement from Trevor.
>> 
>> Just an idea,
>> 
>> Todd Fabacher
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>> >
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Colin Holgate wrote:

> Are you sure that a license is needed for H.264 playback?

No, encoding.

> My hope is that the license is just paid by the encoder tool maker.

Would be nice, but not always so.  E.g., Apple's Final Cut "Pro" (which 
only allows for non-pro use):


15. H.264/AVC Notice. To the extent that the Apple Software contains
AVC encoding and/or decoding functionality, commercial use of
H.264/AVC requires additional licensing and the following provision
applies: THE AVC FUNCTIONALITY IN THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED HEREIN
ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE OF A CONSUMER TO (i)
ENCODE VIDEO IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AVC STANDARD ("AVC VIDEO")
AND/OR (ii) DECODE AVC VIDEO THAT WAS ENCODED BY A CONSUMER ENGAGED
IN A PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND/OR AVC VIDEO THAT WAS
OBTAINED FROM A VIDEO PROVIDER LICENSED TO PROVIDE AVC VIDEO.
INFORMATION REGARDING OTHER USES AND LICENSES MAY BE OBTAINED FROM
MPEG LA L.L.C.
http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/finalcutstudio2.pdf


Similar wording is also in the Adobe Premier EULA:

http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/legal/licenses-terms/pdf/CS6.pdf


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Zryip created a little intellisense plugin some years ago. 

http://www.aslugontheroad.com/in-progress/9-intellisense-plugin 


It´s free for users of the Excel Library.

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 22:10 schrieb Todd Fabacher via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> One of the single largest problems we face is resistance to LiveCode in the
> corporate is developers. One, they are not eager to learn a new language.
> But once I show them LiveCode, they see the simple ease and simplicity and
> become open to the prospect. I even explain it as a way of prototyping
> their logic in an English format.
> 
> But once they start coding, they outright reject it because of the complete
> lack of IntelliSense. These people will NOT BUDGE. There is no way we are
> going to convince them that they will have to remember the properties and
> function names.
> 
> I saw in Kevin's demo of the latest version which showed that there was
> FINALLY a list of events to choose from. This should have been there years
> ago. You just need to look at LiveCode's competition to see progress. Xojo
> is one example. We needed to create a RasPi app as a test, so we purchased
> a license, and it's IDE was quite good. MUCH better than LiveCode. We also
> use Visual Studio, which has fantastic IntelliSense.
> 
> Here is what they are looking for:
> 
> 1. Function completion. As you type it starts to match a function name, all
> the functions so up in a list to choose from as I type.
> 
> 2. Function parameters. once I type a function, I can mouse over it and all
> the parameters and a quick explanation show up.
> 
> 3. I understand that properties are going to be a problem because LiveCode
> is NOT in an algebraic format like Object.Property = value. So setting the
> properties first is an issue. How about we put in a placeholder like:
> 
> set the ? from field "test"
> set the ? from widget "map"
> 
> Then...as soon as I put in the object type or object name for a widget, I
> would get a pop-up with a list of properties to select from.
> 
> 
> These functionalities may not be easy, but should not be difficult. Maybe
> an IntelliSense extension, done by the community can be done? It is a major
> barrier to entry for experienced developers to switch to. This is the #1
> reason we can not get coders in companies to agree to LiveCode. #2 was Git,
> but that seems to be solved with community involvement from Trevor.
> 
> Just an idea,
> 
> Todd Fabacher
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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IntelliSense - Intelligent code completion for LiveCode

[Todd Fabacher via use-livecode]

One of the single largest problems we face is resistance to LiveCode in the
corporate is developers. One, they are not eager to learn a new language.
But once I show them LiveCode, they see the simple ease and simplicity and
become open to the prospect. I even explain it as a way of prototyping
their logic in an English format.

But once they start coding, they outright reject it because of the complete
lack of IntelliSense. These people will NOT BUDGE. There is no way we are
going to convince them that they will have to remember the properties and
function names.

I saw in Kevin's demo of the latest version which showed that there was
FINALLY a list of events to choose from. This should have been there years
ago. You just need to look at LiveCode's competition to see progress. Xojo
is one example. We needed to create a RasPi app as a test, so we purchased
a license, and it's IDE was quite good. MUCH better than LiveCode. We also
use Visual Studio, which has fantastic IntelliSense.

Here is what they are looking for:

1. Function completion. As you type it starts to match a function name, all
the functions so up in a list to choose from as I type.

2. Function parameters. once I type a function, I can mouse over it and all
the parameters and a quick explanation show up.

3. I understand that properties are going to be a problem because LiveCode
is NOT in an algebraic format like Object.Property = value. So setting the
properties first is an issue. How about we put in a placeholder like:

set the ? from field "test"
set the ? from widget "map"

Then...as soon as I put in the object type or object name for a widget, I
would get a pop-up with a list of properties to select from.


These functionalities may not be easy, but should not be difficult. Maybe
an IntelliSense extension, done by the community can be done? It is a major
barrier to entry for experienced developers to switch to. This is the #1
reason we can not get coders in companies to agree to LiveCode. #2 was Git,
but that seems to be solved with community involvement from Trevor.

Just an idea,

Todd Fabacher
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Video codecs [edit

]

   - *x264 * – H.264/MPEG-4 AVC
    implementation. x264 is
   not a codec (en*co*der/*dec*oder); it is just an encoder (it cannot
   decode video).
   - *OpenH264 * – H.264 baseline
   profile encoding and decoding


--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Are you sure that a license is needed for H.264 playback? That could
> seriously impact the viability of YouTube or Vimeo, if all users had to pay
> a license fee.
>
> My hope is that the license is just paid by the encoder tool maker. If
> you’re using Adobe Media Encoder you don’t have to pay a license, Adobe
> already did.
>
> In the hope that playback doesn’t involve paying a fee, you could use
> non-H.264 encoders that make videos that are played back by anything that
> can handle H.264. That might allow you to use your own tool without a
> license fee, and still make videos that can play back everywhere.
>
> Here is an article that talks about how to solve a gamma/contrast issue
> that happens with most H.264 encoders:
>
> https://myth.li/2010/07/how-to-fix-the-h264-gamma-
> brightness-bug-in-quicktime/
>
> The solution they have is to use an x264 encoder, and the article has
> links to a QuickTime component, so that you could export to x264 from
> anything that uses QuickTime. The results are better looking than regular
> H.264.
>
> > On Jul 19, 2017, at 12:37 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Seems most folks use h.264 for encoding video, but being
> patent-encumbered it requires negotiating a license with MPEGLA for
> commercial use.
> >
>
>
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

from what I can tell Vorbis works with WebM but then you get into the
browser problem. The proprietary browsers appear to not support the OSS
media without extra stuff added by the user..

It's also hard to get a decent encoding software...  you might have to roll
your own.

it's the 'all platforms' part that is a problem.

as usual wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_codecs

sqb

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Seems most folks use h.264 for encoding video, but being patent-encumbered
> it requires negotiating a license with MPEGLA for commercial use.
>
> I have a batch of files I need to re-encode - what non-patent-encumbered
> codec could I use that will be supported on all platforms?
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: [OT]h.264 alternatives

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

Are you sure that a license is needed for H.264 playback? That could seriously 
impact the viability of YouTube or Vimeo, if all users had to pay a license fee.

My hope is that the license is just paid by the encoder tool maker. If you’re 
using Adobe Media Encoder you don’t have to pay a license, Adobe already did.

In the hope that playback doesn’t involve paying a fee, you could use non-H.264 
encoders that make videos that are played back by anything that can handle 
H.264. That might allow you to use your own tool without a license fee, and 
still make videos that can play back everywhere.

Here is an article that talks about how to solve a gamma/contrast issue that 
happens with most H.264 encoders:

https://myth.li/2010/07/how-to-fix-the-h264-gamma-brightness-bug-in-quicktime/

The solution they have is to use an x264 encoder, and the article has links to 
a QuickTime component, so that you could export to x264 from anything that uses 
QuickTime. The results are better looking than regular H.264.

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 12:37 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Seems most folks use h.264 for encoding video, but being patent-encumbered it 
> requires negotiating a license with MPEGLA for commercial use.
> 


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Re: Window layering

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 10:51 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> On 2017-07-19 18:59, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>>> - set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
>>>   of systemWindow)
>>
>> It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by
>> how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).
>
> This case is a *lot* harder.

Bringing the visible LC windows to the front after displaying seems to 
work for me. Most of the time, anyway. Sometimes the backdrop appears on 
my main monitor, sometimes on the other one. It's hard to predict which. 
But the following script does the job of not hiding everything behind 
the backdrop.


on bringLCtoFront
   local tWindows

   set the backdrop to "black"
   put the windows into tWindows
   repeat for each line tWindow in tWindows
  if the visible of stack tWindow then
 open stack tWindow
  end if
   end repeat
end bringLCtoFront

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

That is a rather good suggestion!

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:10 PM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I understand your point completely!
>
> HOWEVER, why not make it slightly easier to make the backdrop to disappear?
>
> Erm . . . how about a button on the far right of the revMenubar stack?
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 7/19/17 10:06 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather
> than
> >> imposing it?
> >>
> > Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from
> new
> > users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
> > their desktops.
> >
> > If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the
> backdrop
> > (we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
> > sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
> > about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
> > startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the
> script
> > editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
> > selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default
> handlers
> > in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
> > instead of property names in the property inspector.
> >
> > Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
> > people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
> > sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users
> :-)
> > ___
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[OT]h.264 alternatives

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Seems most folks use h.264 for encoding video, but being 
patent-encumbered it requires negotiating a license with MPEGLA for 
commercial use.


I have a batch of files I need to re-encode - what non-patent-encumbered 
codec could I use that will be supported on all platforms?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/18/2017 10:59 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

Do your keyboard shortcuts work Mark? You could use Ctrl+M to pop open the
message box, and set the backdrop to none, then toggle it on and off via
the View menu, then hopefully it should be gone from your preferences.


Interesting. That didn't work for me, but the following did:

launch LC9
get a completely gray screen
alt-tab my way to LiveCode
now the menubar and other palettes are in front of the backdrop
disable the backdrop to set the preference

so everything's there, it's just that the backdrop is in front of all 
other windows and it's not passing (keyboard) events through.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"Assault" . . . Woof.

"The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic, 
unsophisticated, and non-programming user"


Well . . .

I'm not sure why favouring a backdrop blocking out a desktop indicates 
that one is 'simplistic' . . .


Until I went to the US in 1993 I had never seen a GUI except for a 
really awful attempt at one on a BBC Micro;
but I was perfectly capable of doing distinctly non-simplistic stuff 
with FORTRAN, PASCAL, BASIC and so on.


Recently I started a group of kids on a summer programming course with 
BBC BASIC on a load of

BBC Micro computers: very effective and lots of fun was had all round.

There are front-ends for Linux available that do NOT splatter the screen 
with icons and other screen 'furniture' (docks and so on)
for people who prefer things that way: I don't suppose they are either 
simplistic or unsophisticated.


Personally I don't like using a backdrop with LiveCode, but I can see 
its use to the extent that my Devawriter Pro has an in-built

backdrop for those who want one.

"non-programming user"

My Mum uses a laptop running Xubuntu 14.04 where her desktop is gaily 
peppered with icons and a dock; while she is
neither simplistic nor unsophisticated she is most definitely a 
non-programming user.


For a lawyer you seem remarkably . . . [well, there we are, I'll leave 
you to fill in the dots].




NOW . . . to be sensible . . .

Let us imagine when starting up LiveCode for the first time we are 
presented with a menu window that allows us to choose whether we think 
that we are:


1. A newbie who is seeing the thing for the first time.

2. A haory old programmer who does not need his/her/its handheld.

And at that point we can get all Prince-of-Denmarky with our backdrop.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 10:16 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:



Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)


To be absolutely, crystal clear, as a non-hypothetical former new user:
  there is very little chance that I would have become a user after an
assault like that.

The assault itself is an information signal, whether correctly perceived or
not, about how the project development mindset views it's own importance,
users, and how users should submit to its preferences.

Seize my interface, and I'm pretty much instantly hostile.  At that point,
you're not trying to attract a curious potential user, but an angry one,
and that will color  the response.

The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic,
unsophisticated, and non-programming user--at the expense of hostility to
those who have experience, ttc.



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
> people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
> sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
>

To be absolutely, crystal clear, as a non-hypothetical former new user:
 there is very little chance that I would have become a user after an
assault like that.

The assault itself is an information signal, whether correctly perceived or
not, about how the project development mindset views it's own importance,
users, and how users should submit to its preferences.

Seize my interface, and I'm pretty much instantly hostile.  At that point,
you're not trying to attract a curious potential user, but an angry one,
and that will color  the response.

The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic,
unsophisticated, and non-programming user--at the expense of hostility to
those who have experience, ttc.

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Swipe transitions

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

The deeper I get into mobile design the more it becomes clear that true 
swipe transitions are somnething users expect, and by extension 
something new developers would expect to be supported.


Having used LC a long time, I can come up with all sorts of ways of 
crating groups for this, but that's a lot of work for newcomers, 
something of a turn-off.


What is the smallest number of language elements needed to implement 
swipe transitions?


I can imagine at a minimum needing something like a card property called 
the swipeDirections, which can include either left and/or right, or up 
and/or down, or all four, or none.


But that would only take care of the swipe of the current card.  We'd 
also need some way to assign the destination card for each swipe direction.


What should that syntax look like, and how do we discern swipe events 
from others on controls within the card?  How is that distinction made 
in Java/Swift apps?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I understand your point completely!

HOWEVER, why not make it slightly easier to make the backdrop to disappear?

Erm . . . how about a button on the far right of the revMenubar stack?

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 10:06 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
imposing it?


Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from new
users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
their desktops.

If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the backdrop
(we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the script
editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default handlers
in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
instead of property names in the property inspector.

Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
> imposing it?
>

Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from new
users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
their desktops.

If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the backdrop
(we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the script
editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default handlers
in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
instead of property names in the property inspector.

Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
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Re: Window layering

[prothero--- via use-livecode]

My 2c,
Mark Waddingham deserves promotion to a state of eternal bliss for his 
magnificent command of the virtue of patience.
Best,
Bill P

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-07-19 18:59, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>>> - set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
>>>  of systemWindow)
>> It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by
>> how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).
> 
> This case is a *lot* harder.
> 
> The Mac Window Server does define various levels for windows 
> (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coregraphics/cgwindowlevelkey?language=objc).
> 
> However, the two below 'Normal' are not referenced in Cocoa - they are likely 
> reserved for the OS. Indeed, the 'Desktop' level is the actual Desktop window 
> (the thing which shows all the icons and such). I suspect that you have no 
> control over ordering within those levels at all - so the chance of it doing 
> what you want there is minimal.
> 
> On Linux it is a similar story, there are a number of levels - the one which 
> (a long time ago) used to be used for backdrops, is now reserved to the 
> 'Desktops' (e.g. Gnome or KDE). If you have one of these desktops running, if 
> you set a window to that level (via the appropriate hint) it goes underneath 
> so you don't see it.
> 
> On Win32 it probably could be 'hacked' in a similar way we do the backdrop 
> there now - however, you then have the problem that you have to make it work 
> in the sea of other application windows completely unrelated to your own 
> windows, which is a potential problem.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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a picture is shown in a player object instead of a movie when using a streaming url

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Hi,
i am trying to stream the URL
https://zdf1314-lh.akamaihd.net/i/de14_v1@392878/master.m3u8 

in an player object.

I´ve set the filename of the player object to the streaming url, but the video 
is not played, but only a still image is shown.
If i press the play control again i see a new image, but the video is still not 
played.

Am i missing something?
I am on Mac OS X 10.12.5 with LC 8.1.6RC2 and LC 9DP6 

Regards,
Matthias 

Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

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Re: Window layering

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:59, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)


It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by
how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).


This case is a *lot* harder.

The Mac Window Server does define various levels for windows 
(https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coregraphics/cgwindowlevelkey?language=objc).


However, the two below 'Normal' are not referenced in Cocoa - they are 
likely reserved for the OS. Indeed, the 'Desktop' level is the actual 
Desktop window (the thing which shows all the icons and such). I suspect 
that you have no control over ordering within those levels at all - so 
the chance of it doing what you want there is minimal.


On Linux it is a similar story, there are a number of levels - the one 
which (a long time ago) used to be used for backdrops, is now reserved 
to the 'Desktops' (e.g. Gnome or KDE). If you have one of these desktops 
running, if you set a window to that level (via the appropriate hint) it 
goes underneath so you don't see it.


On Win32 it probably could be 'hacked' in a similar way we do the 
backdrop there now - however, you then have the problem that you have to 
make it work in the sea of other application windows completely 
unrelated to your own windows, which is a potential problem.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

Microsoft don't count ME or Vista. They were bug test releases that proved
to be more buggy than the bugs they were claiming to repair, so that
7,8,9,10 work consecutively from 1,2,3,95 (9-5=4),98 (v4+
(9-8)=5),XP(abs(ascii-x - ascii-P)=24;2+4=6)
;)

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs    Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609

On 19 July 2017 at 18:12, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Why worry?
>
> When I release a new version of my Devawriter Pro I think of a number,
> multiply it by 3.3 recurring, subtract 7 and claim it
> was all the result of a mystical experience, and, so far, no one has
> complained.
>
> With the shining examples of Microsoft . . . as a kid said to me the other
> day: "How come that boy has just been given an old laptop by his
> Granddad that is running Windows 95 when mine only runs Windows 10?"
>
> and Apple:
>
> System 6, 7, 8, 9 and then "10" (whoops 'X') for the last 15 years,
>
> nobody should let seemingly illogical numbering systems fuss them.
>
> After all . . .  8.1.6 comes AFTER 8.1.5, and DP-8 comes AFTER DP-7, and
> RC-3 comes AFTER RC-2;
> which IS better than Windows 1, 2, 3, 95, 98, ME, Vista, XP, 7, 8, 10 [may
> have left out some there] in
> so many ways I cannot list them.
>
> When is Apple going to release System 11, if ever?
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 7/19/17 7:44 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> On 07/19/2017 06:54 AM, Bob Hall via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>>> Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? Why
>>> are significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? What
>>> standard (if any) do Livecode version numbers follow?
>>>
>>
>> I was wondering along the same lines. I have previously been assured that
>> new "features" don't get rolled into release candidate builds, and the only
>> changes in successive rc builds are things that caused regression failures
>> in earlier builds. It seems that this policy has now changed to allow for
>> changes to see how new users will react.
>>
>>
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Re: Window layering

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Well . . .

My Devawriter Pro has an optional faux backdrop stack (it's called 
"DESKER") with this stackScript:


*on**preOpenStack*

**

***put**((item 3 **ofthescreenRect**) + 20) **into**WIDD*

**

***put**((item 4 **ofthescreenRect**) + 20) **into**HITE*

**

***setthewidthof**stack "DESKER" **to**WIDD*

**

***settheheightof**stack "DESKER" **to**HITE*

**

***setthelocof**stack "DESKER" **tothescreenLoc*

**

*end**preOpenStack*



*on**mouseDown*

**

***toplevel**stack "DWPro"*

**

*end**mouseDown*



*on**mouseUp*

**

***toplevel**stack "DWPro"*

**

*end**mouseUp*

So this sort of thing is doable IFF you have a way of determining the 
names of all the stacks you want in front of

your faux backdrop.

While you can use *toplevel* to bring one stack to the forefront there 
is no **backlevel* to send a stack to the back.


*Richmond.*


On 7/19/17 7:59 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 18:32, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

All this talk about the background has me wondering:  would it be
useful to anyone here if we had a way to:

- set the layer of a stack below all other LC stacks (opposite
  of palette)

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)


It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by 
how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.



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Re: Window layering

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:59, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 18:32, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

All this talk about the background has me wondering:  would it be
useful to anyone here if we had a way to:

- set the layer of a stack below all other LC stacks (opposite
  of palette)

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)


It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by
how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).


Okay and then my memory of how things work kicked in...

The backdrop is actually a window (of course) so it could potentially be 
generalized to an arbitrary stack - so you could definitely have one 
(which would work as well as the backdrop feature does now).


More than one we could probably get to work on Mac, and probably 
Windows. Linux is a little trickier.


Actually the fundamental problem here is ensuring stacking order of 
Windows within an application - this isn't the easiest thing to do.


Carbon used to allow you to do it in a very flexible way - Cocoa, less 
so. In the latter we actually have to restack the window list back to 
front in the 'preclick' event which windows get - which works reasonably 
well, but not as well as it did in Carbon; on Win32 we have to intercept 
a message that window's sends (WM_SETWINDOWPOS) and fettle quite 
considerably.


On Linux, it is a case of set some window manager hints and hope they 
are obeyed in the way you intend.


Now, if we could make a window stacking routine which follows the rules 
set by script work reliably on all platforms then it becomes more than 
possible (I'm currently wondering whether the Mac approach *might* work 
on Linux actually, GDK certainly seems to suggest it tries its hardest 
to do what the application wants; rather than what the Window Manager 
wants and Monte made some headway on getting the backdrop to work better 
on Linux today).


This is one of those things that sound like it should be straightforward 
to do - after all, an application should be able to control the layering 
of its windows, right? However, you start to fight against the UI 
consistency rules which have been embedded in the platform APIs with 
things like this, and applications generally always lose such fights if 
not in one OS version, but a subsequent one.


That being said, if anyone knows of any open source (particularly Linux 
and Windows) applications which do stuff like this - specifically, have 
normal windows which do keep a strict stacking order regardless of how 
you try and change it then please let us know as we could look at the 
source to see how they do it.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>   Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
>>> still in the first run mode of the start center.
>>>
>>
>> Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
>> react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.
>>
>> I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
>> I assumed an OS glitch.
>>
>> When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
>> seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
>> anything.
>>
>> Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
>> that off.
>>
>> I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
>> deal with it in the message box.
>>
>
> That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing.
>
>
MetaCard had the backdrop.  I used it on IRIX, and it was wonderful to
isolate the coding environment from the other stuff.  In fact, other very
expensive high-end graphics software we used did exactly the same thing.
The graphics system set a neutral gray backdrop to enable the user to make
subtle color edits to photographs of food.  The idea was that the
neutrality of the gray backdrop would not interfere with your
interpretation of color, as the surrounding colors do actually affect your
visual perception.  So, yeah.  I have a background in graphics which
incidentally makes me like the backdrop.

~Roger
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Jerry Jensen via use-livecode]

+1

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
> react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.


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Re: Window layering

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

In about 2003 I did exactly that with RunRev 2.2.1, using a Palette as a 
faux backdrop,

but I can neither find that stack nor remember how I did it.

The stack might be on the OLD revOnline if there is any way to access that.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 7:59 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 18:32, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

All this talk about the background has me wondering:  would it be
useful to anyone here if we had a way to:

- set the layer of a stack below all other LC stacks (opposite
  of palette)

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)


It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by 
how hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
>
>>
>> I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
>> deal with it in the message box.
>>
>
> That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing
>

*shrug*

There's *lots* in livecode that I've never investigated, even in the
pulldowns.

I *can* say that if the version 5 preview/introductory had acted like this,
there is *very* little chance that I would be using livecode today (or even
later that afternoon . . .)


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"Virgin" on the ridiculous . . .

sorry, that one was just too good to resist.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 7:50 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again



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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Why worry?

When I release a new version of my Devawriter Pro I think of a number, 
multiply it by 3.3 recurring, subtract 7 and claim it
was all the result of a mystical experience, and, so far, no one has 
complained.


With the shining examples of Microsoft . . . as a kid said to me the 
other day: "How come that boy has just been given an old laptop by his

Granddad that is running Windows 95 when mine only runs Windows 10?"

and Apple:

System 6, 7, 8, 9 and then "10" (whoops 'X') for the last 15 years,

nobody should let seemingly illogical numbering systems fuss them.

After all . . .  8.1.6 comes AFTER 8.1.5, and DP-8 comes AFTER DP-7, and 
RC-3 comes AFTER RC-2;
which IS better than Windows 1, 2, 3, 95, 98, ME, Vista, XP, 7, 8, 10 
[may have left out some there] in

so many ways I cannot list them.

When is Apple going to release System 11, if ever?

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 7:44 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 06:54 AM, Bob Hall via use-livecode wrote:
Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? 
Why are significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? 
What standard (if any) do Livecode version numbers follow?


I was wondering along the same lines. I have previously been assured 
that new "features" don't get rolled into release candidate builds, 
and the only changes in successive rc builds are things that caused 
regression failures in earlier builds. It seems that this policy has 
now changed to allow for changes to see how new users will react.




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 19:04, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to 
try to

deal with it in the message box.


That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia 
thing.


The backdrop has been there as a feature for as long as I can remember.

I'm pretty sure it was in MetaCard before it was ported to non UNIX 
platforms (back then you *could* actually set a background window with 
an appropriate hint that worked with the X11 Window Managers as they 
didn't tend to work in concert with 'desktops' which use that hint to 
make the Desktop window you see on all modern distros - if you use that 
class of window now, your backdrop window disappears behind the Desktop 
- which isn't quite what is wanted, generally ;)).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:44, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 06:54 AM, Bob Hall via use-livecode wrote:
Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? 
Why are significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? 
What standard (if any) do Livecode version numbers follow?


I was wondering along the same lines. I have previously been assured
that new "features" don't get rolled into release candidate builds,
and the only changes in successive rc builds are things that caused
regression failures in earlier builds. It seems that this policy has
now changed to allow for changes to see how new users will react.


As explained in my email on the topic, we have evolved the policy 
slightly in order to support the efforts we are taking to more rapidly 
expand our user base. Hopefully, that rationale is good reason enough :)


The only change to the policy is that we will now consider changes 
required for iterating on our 'first-run' experience (in conjunction 
with the user testing we are doing) for inclusion in RC's of the stable 
line.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 09:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being 
able to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by 
default for first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to 
follow as possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which 
seemed to the 'problem' at that point...


OK - got it.
I think A/B testing is a worthwhile goal, and I think first-run backdrop 
initialization may well turn out to be a good idea (with a *very* 
visible button to disable/enable it on the welcome screen).


But please don't do this sort of feature testing in rc builds.
Whatever happened to dp releases anyway?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Thanks, Panos!  That worked.  I changed the arrangement of my Mac screens,
so I guess it was stranded.

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:42 AM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> @Roger:
>
> Could it be the case that the Preferences stack does open, but somehow it
> goes offscreen?
>
> - Open Prefs
> - If you don't see the window, type in the msg box:
>
> set the loc of stack revpreferencesGUI to the screenloc
>
> Best,
>
> Panos
>
> --
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Roger Eller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd
> thing
> > though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open
> > Preferences.
> >
> > ~Roger
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dunno: I get grey.
> > >
> > > Richmond.
> > >
> > > On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
> > >
> > >> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something
> > like
> > >> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
> > >> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
> > >>
> > >> ~Roger
> > >>
> > >>
> > ___
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


  Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
still in the first run mode of the start center.


Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.

I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
I assumed an OS glitch.

When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
anything.

Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
that off.

I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
deal with it in the message box.


That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing.

Richmond.


Also, *every* time rc2 launches, it r4ets this preference.

I find the notion that new users need the computer taken away from them
rather condescending . . .





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Re: Window layering

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:32, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

All this talk about the background has me wondering:  would it be
useful to anyone here if we had a way to:

- set the layer of a stack below all other LC stacks (opposite
  of palette)

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)


It might be useful - although probably not implementable (judging by how 
hard it is to get the backdrop to work reliably on all platforms).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being able
> to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by default for
> first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to follow as
> possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which seemed to the
> 'problem' at that point...


How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
imposing it?

My immediate reaction to discovering a program thought itself sIt's mo
important that it should block out the rest has always been rather
hostile--to the level I quit the program and don't go back.

 It's my screen, with the things I'm doing, set the way I want.  It's not
for a new potential program to decide I'm wrong.
-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:50, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again


Right - yes - we identified that was a problem (one we didn't intend) - 
and that was commented on many many posts ago :)


However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being 
able to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by 
default for first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to 
follow as possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which 
seemed to the 'problem' at that point...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 06:54 AM, Bob Hall via use-livecode wrote:

Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? Why are 
significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? What standard (if 
any) do Livecode version numbers follow?


I was wondering along the same lines. I have previously been assured 
that new "features" don't get rolled into release candidate builds, and 
the only changes in successive rc builds are things that caused 
regression failures in earlier builds. It seems that this policy has now 
changed to allow for changes to see how new users will react.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-2

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

Cool, yeah I can see how the I-beam issue is a bit of a show-stopper!

revIDEBrowserWidgetUnavailable is in the IDE library, line 4696:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript#L4696

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:33 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 07/18/2017 10:51 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:
> > Just out of interest, if it is not having the dictionary that makes them
> > 'unusable', does it launch correctly in a browser if you change the
> script
> > of revIDEBrowserWidgetUnavailable to return true?
>
> Well, the CEF problem is one of the factors, yes. If it were only that
> and the IDE didn't try to display things in a CEF browser I could get
> around that. But I don't know what other parts of the IDE will start
> using the CEF library, and considering that everything that tries to
> causes me to force-quit and lose any unsaved work, that's a problem. But
> I know the CEF issues are being worked on frantically, and we've talked
> about that off-list, so I'm not trying to raise the issue here.
>
> The all-but-invisible caret in field editing is also a pretty serious
> problem, and I see from the github stream that it's been fixed for dp9,
> so I'm also not worried about it - I'm just sticking with dp6 until the
> next dp release.
>
> ...and I now use Bernd's TinyDictionary instead of the built-in
> dictionary, so I don't need to try to monkeypatch the IDE for that. But
> gimme a clue as to where to find revIDEBrowserWidgetUnavailable and I'll
> give it a try just for giggles and let you know off-list.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Window layering

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

All this talk about the background has me wondering:  would it be useful 
to anyone here if we had a way to:


- set the layer of a stack below all other LC stacks (opposite
  of palette)

- set the layer ouf a stack below all other windows (opposite
  of systemWindow)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-2

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/18/2017 10:51 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

Just out of interest, if it is not having the dictionary that makes them
'unusable', does it launch correctly in a browser if you change the script
of revIDEBrowserWidgetUnavailable to return true?


Well, the CEF problem is one of the factors, yes. If it were only that 
and the IDE didn't try to display things in a CEF browser I could get 
around that. But I don't know what other parts of the IDE will start 
using the CEF library, and considering that everything that tries to 
causes me to force-quit and lose any unsaved work, that's a problem. But 
I know the CEF issues are being worked on frantically, and we've talked 
about that off-list, so I'm not trying to raise the issue here.


The all-but-invisible caret in field editing is also a pretty serious 
problem, and I see from the github stream that it's been fixed for dp9, 
so I'm also not worried about it - I'm just sticking with dp6 until the 
next dp release.


...and I now use Bernd's TinyDictionary instead of the built-in 
dictionary, so I don't need to try to monkeypatch the IDE for that. But 
gimme a clue as to where to find revIDEBrowserWidgetUnavailable and I'll 
give it a try just for giggles and let you know off-list.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>  Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
> still in the first run mode of the start center.


Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.

I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
I assumed an OS glitch.

When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
anything.

Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
that off.

I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
deal with it in the message box.

Also, *every* time rc2 launches, it r4ets this preference.

I find the notion that new users need the computer taken away from them
rather condescending . . .


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Export SVG as PNG?

[Dan Friedman via use-livecode]

Klaus, Ali and Richmond,

Thank you for the replies!   Perfecto!

-Dan

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Re: Export SVG as PNG?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I would simplfy that to:

export snapshot of widget "XXX" to file "XXX.png" as PNG

no need to mess around with "the rect of".

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 6:44 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

export snapshot from rect (the rect of widget 1) of widget 1 to file (
specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.png") as png


The 'of widget 1' part is the important part - that takes the object in
isolation rather than snapshotting the background of the card.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 4:36 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


Hello!   Is it possible to export a svg widget to a png and retain the
transparency?  If so, how would you go about doing that?

Thanks!
-Dan

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Re: Export SVG as PNG?

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Dan,

> Am 19.07.2017 um 17:36 schrieb Dan Friedman via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Hello!   Is it possible to export a svg widget to a png and retain the 
> transparency?  If so, how would you go about doing that?

yes, syntax is like for a snapshot of a group including tranparecny:
...
import snapshot from rect (the rect of widget 1) of widget 1
...
Et voila, a nice pixel graphic, tested and works :-)

> Thanks!
> -Dan

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: Export SVG as PNG?

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

export snapshot from rect (the rect of widget 1) of widget 1 to file (
specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.png") as png


The 'of widget 1' part is the important part - that takes the object in
isolation rather than snapshotting the background of the card.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 4:36 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hello!   Is it possible to export a svg widget to a png and retain the
> transparency?  If so, how would you go about doing that?
>
> Thanks!
> -Dan
>
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Export SVG as PNG?

[Dan Friedman via use-livecode]

Hello!   Is it possible to export a svg widget to a png and retain the 
transparency?  If so, how would you go about doing that?

Thanks!
-Dan

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Proof of concept:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suhwepaw39tqlp8/Backdropper.livecode.zip?dl=0

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:55 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 13:19, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes
have finished it is amazing
what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop
"as a boring colour".

This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on
which to stay one's eye".

I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark
green tweed sort of thing)
and they liked that a lot.


Thanks for the feedback :)

I've passed it to be included with the results of the most recent user 
testing session we have done.



You owe me 15 choc-ices.


Think of it as a contribution to supporting the LiveCode project ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 16:26, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd 
thing
though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open 
Preferences.


Have you opened 8.1.6-rc-2?

Prior to 8.1.6-rc-2 the default set in the IDE (if it has not been 
previously set, or set when 'reset preferences' is clicked) is black.


In 8.1.6-rc-2 it changes the default to light grey - which is probably 
causing the distinction.


I suspect Panos has your answer (hopefully!) for why your prefs window 
is AWOL in all your versions...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

@Roger:

Could it be the case that the Preferences stack does open, but somehow it
goes offscreen?

- Open Prefs
- If you don't see the window, type in the msg box:

set the loc of stack revpreferencesGUI to the screenloc

Best,

Panos

--

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Roger Eller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd thing
> though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open
> Preferences.
>
> ~Roger
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Dunno: I get grey.
> >
> > Richmond.
> >
> > On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
> >
> >> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something
> like
> >> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
> >> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
> >>
> >> ~Roger
> >>
> >>
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 15:54, Bob Hall via use-livecode wrote:
On Jul 19, 2017, at 4:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something 
like the handler menu;


Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2?


To support our user-testing efforts.


Why are significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch?


To support our user-testing efforts.


What standard (if any) do Livecode version numbers follow?


Semver with an explicit distinction between dp/rc/gm and iterations 
there of.



So, here’s to looking forward to 8.2.0dp1 (which will be known as
8.1.6rc3 in the real world :-)


We need to iterate quickly on changes to the first run experience to 
LiveCode to ensure that we are doing all we can to attract new users to 
the platform. This has to encompass the entire flow which users see from 
finding us on the web, through to looking through the website, getting 
an account and activating the product. In essence, it has to be done 
'live' as otherwise we risk not getting reasonable nor accurate results 
on which we can base further work.


So we cannot do this from develop (i.e. 9.x) as that is *not* what 
people get when they follow through this process - they get the 'most 
recent stable version' which is 8.1.x. Furthermore, the turnaround on 
DPs on develop is quite long - for all kinds of reasons. Indeed we wish 
it were quicker, but at present there is simply no way we can make that 
happen. Thus, we took the decision to do it against the stable line - 
i.e. 8.1.x.


New users (coming through our website) now actually get the latest RC of 
the stable line (8.1.x) when they download.


Iterations on the first run experience is being done in the RC's of the 
stable line (8.1.x) simply because we can turn them around relatively 
quickly (in comparison to 9 DPs).


The changes we are making are almost exclusively IDE changes, and the 
majority of those exclusive to what you see when you are in 'first run' 
mode - which is something which (usually) only new users see (beyond the 
slight issue with the backdrop change in 8.1.6-RC-2 - we'll certainly 
try harder to make sure a similar thing like that does not happen in 
future).


So, in essence, we are using RCs as 'mini DPs' for very focused sets of 
changes that we are testing with direct input from *real* potential new 
users.


We will still not release an 8.1.x GM until we are happy any changes in 
them are suitable, and of sufficient quality - indeed, any 'failed' 
experiments in this regard will not make it to GM.


The downside for existing users is that it might take a little more 
iteration on 8.1.x releases to get them to GM (and some RC's *might* - 
due to the fact human's are, well, human - have the occasional 'bump').


The upside for existing users two-fold:

  1) Some of these changes are not entirely tied to first run (e.g. 
handler menu) and hopefully are useful additions to IDE usability for 
everyone (should they want to use them - hence the hold preferences 
related thread recently).


  2) If this process works then the growth of our community will 
accelerate.


We have discussed internally being able to make the 'first run 
experience' pluggable so we can do this kind of thing *outside* of any 
particular release. However, realistically, that is a significant 
project in its own right, and some of the changes we are evaluating 
(based directly on feedback) do need to 'cut' deeper than just the 
first-run experience (e.g. handler menus). Basically, we'd need a much 
more pluggable IDE to have the same ability we do with our current 
approach; and, furthermore, that then still leaves us with the problem 
of integrating those changes into the releases new users actually get 
generally (which would muddy the 'maintenance' aspect of the stable line 
anyway) rather than just in any one user testing session.


So it is a pragmatic solution to a very real problem - and one which 
hadn't really occasioned much comment, until today (primarily due to the 
backdrop issue I think).


So, on the whole, whilst the pedant in me has been a little 
uncomfortable with it at times, that part is more than 'shouted down' by 
the rest of me which can see that what we are doing is working really 
quite well. Indeed, we are already getting very significant positive 
results on conversion rate despite only doing it for just over a month 
and with four testing sessions under our belts. (It is also being done 
in concert with iterative changes to our website, emails - in fact all 
parts of our processes that interact with the new and uninitiated).


Realistically, this situation isn't going to change for the foreseeable 
future - and certainly not whilst it is bearing so much tasty fruit.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd thing
though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open Preferences.

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dunno: I get grey.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
>> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
>> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
>>
>> ~Roger
>>
>>
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Re: What happened to LC version numbers?

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

It's unlikely that there will be an 8.2.0 release unless they add in the
Obj-C/Java stuff into v8. Version numbers have been described in the past.
I can't find the post but, as I remember it, it is something like:

v8 = Major change to Engine and IDE that would cause current projects to
potentially no longer work due to additions or subtraction in functionality
or a change in workflow.
.1 = A major addition that will not affect previous projects but will add
to the functionality of the previous (sub)release.
.6 = A bug fix (more likely multiple bugs).
DP/RC = Previews to make sure that any bug fixes do not have a knock on
effect to other functionality. If it fails it moves up a DP/RC number till
it is deemed stable and can be released as such.

So, not too different to how it works in most software houses I think.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk


On 19 July 2017 at 14:54, Bob Hall via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> > On Jul 19, 2017, at 4:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
> the handler menu;
>
> I’ve been scratching my head of late with Livecode version numbers. They
> don’t seem to follow any rhyme or reason any longer. I’m sure they do to
> someone but I’m not quite sure what’s going on.
>
> Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? Why
> are significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? What
> standard (if any) do Livecode version numbers follow?
>
> So, here’s to looking forward to 8.2.0dp1 (which will be known as 8.1.6rc3
> in the real world :-)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
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What happened to LC version numbers?

[Bob Hall via use-livecode]

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 4:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like the 
> handler menu;

I’ve been scratching my head of late with Livecode version numbers. They don’t 
seem to follow any rhyme or reason any longer. I’m sure they do to someone but 
I’m not quite sure what’s going on.

Why are we testing a new feature in a RELEASE CANDIDATE version #2? Why are 
significant features being added at all to the 8.x branch? What standard (if 
any) do Livecode version numbers follow?

So, here’s to looking forward to 8.2.0dp1 (which will be known as 8.1.6rc3 in 
the real world :-)

Bob





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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Dunno: I get grey.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:

When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?

~Roger
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Re: Sending an FTP command from one web server to another?

[Tim Selander via use-livecode]

Richard,

Have never written a CGI in my life but you got me thinking; a 
quick Google found me a php script to "print" a folder listing.


So now my .lc script on my on-rev serve puts the url of the .php 
page on the server with the mp3s into a variable -- which gives 
me the list of file names I was trying to get via ftp. Works slick.


Thanks!

Tim Selander
Tokyo, Japan

On 2017.07.19, 2:16, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Tim Selander wrote:

 > My company gave up on hosting our email and website at on-rev.com
 > back when they were having lots of reliability problems. We're
using
 > a host in Japan; no LC server installed, nor is it installable.
 >
 > I still have our Founder's account on on-rev.com, and use
quite a few
 > .lc scripts, calling them from iframes in web pages hosted on
the new
 > host.
 >
 > Our radio programs' mp3 files are stored on the new host. I
want one
 > of my scripts on on-rev.com to get the directory listing of
the mp3
 > files on the new host.

FTP is probably not the best solution for this, for reasons too
numerable to list this morning.

But for the task as described, other simpler, more efficient, and
more secure alternatives exist:

Can you run a CGI on the server holding the MP3 files to obtain
that list?

Or, if they're within you're web root, can you use Apache's
directory listing?



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:58, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something 
like

"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?


The backdrop color can be configured as a preference... It just so 
happens that the default there is black:


http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20128

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?

~Roger
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:19, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes
have finished it is amazing
what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop
"as a boring colour".

This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on
which to stay one's eye".

I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark
green tweed sort of thing)
and they liked that a lot.


Thanks for the feedback :)

I've passed it to be included with the results of the most recent user 
testing session we have done.



You owe me 15 choc-ices.


Think of it as a contribution to supporting the LiveCode project ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:40, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

How many of those brand new users are going to start teaching
themselves LiveCode at home, and how many are going
to go through a guided course in LiveCode in some kind of classroom 
setting?


Most are going to be going through it from home or office on their own, 
after they have discovered us through the web, traversed our web pages 
and downloaded. (Unless, of course, there is a hidden world of 
'underground' LiveCode classrooms no-one at here is aware of and which 
would explain the 1000's of NEW downloads we get on a weekly basis).



The biggish, bold font in the scriptEditor is useful (for me) in that
I can sit in the middle of a room with computers lining the walls
and talk to indvidual kids about their scripting without shifting my
b** too much.


Right - so you already configure LiveCode on the machines your students 
use to teach in the style you are accustomed - I also suspect you turn 
first run mode off (or have done, even if you didn't realise you did).


I think it is reasonable to expect teachers to have to configure the 
environment of the tools they are teaching to their pupils - it seems 
like standard practice in any teaching environment to me (at least in 
the first instance before you've explained the configurability of the 
tool to said pupils in a lesson at some point, assuming that you do).


You are talking about this being 'enforced'. It is not. It is currently 
(in 8.1.6-rc-2) the default setting in *first run* mode only (which is 
configurable as a preference, like script editor font etc.). It can be 
turned off - because all that is happening is that the 'show backdrop' 
option is being turned ON if it has not been set, if 'First Run' is also 
ON.


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here (beyond the *BUG* 
that meant the backdrop is actually being turned on when not in First 
Run mode - which it should not be and I've already said will be resolved 
in RC-3).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 2:32 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 13:25, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense
that they have NO computer programming
experience at all?


A significant enough percentage to make it worthwhile a vector to 
consider.


How many of those brand new users are going to start teaching themselves 
LiveCode at home, and how many are going

to go through a guided course in LiveCode in some kind of classroom setting?

In the latter case I jalouse decisions about whether to use a backdrop 
and so on would be taken by the instructor rather than left to the 
pupils/students.


For instance, on ALL the computers in my school I have the textSize in 
the scriptEditor jacked up to 18 using Charcoal.ttf on Macs and Ubuntu 
Bold.ttf on

Xubuntu, and with the "classic" colourisation.

The biggish, bold font in the scriptEditor is useful (for me) in that I 
can sit in the middle of a room with computers lining the walls
and talk to indvidual kids about their scripting without shifting my b** 
too much.


Richmond.



How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the
desktop "they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious
way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?


That is a very good question, and one which will hopefully answer 
itself from testing it out.


The important point here is perhaps that 'discovery' of how to 
configure these things might need to be improved (e.g. hints / 
explanations etc.) should it turn out to be a problem.



Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a
unified tiddley-pom
(what's it called?) of your collective back?


No it is not a replacement for anything which might happen in the future.

Indeed, as things from the future don't exist *now*, it can't be a 
replacement or fudge or any other way you might want to express it.


It is working with what we have right now and trying things out to see 
if they make what we have right now, better (for appropriate 
definitions of 'better' - in this case, does it make LiveCode 'better' 
for starting out from scratch).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

In English:

Each to his own taste, but this is not a choice.
I want a short, alcoholic French drink to settle my stomach.

In Lallans (Scots):

Ilka mon mun dree his ain wierd, but its nae his ain juist nou,
an Ahm ettlin fae sic tae settle masen.

I do not stretch very far with German, I'm afraid.

On 7/19/17 2:28 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 12:54 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:

*Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!

Je voudrais un digestif.

Richmond.
*
On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu  >‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> >>:

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>> wrote:


On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:


Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!

Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.

There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
what the analysis of results of the testing say.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
>
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:25, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense
that they have NO computer programming
experience at all?


A significant enough percentage to make it worthwhile a vector to 
consider.



How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the
desktop "they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious
way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?


That is a very good question, and one which will hopefully answer itself 
from testing it out.


The important point here is perhaps that 'discovery' of how to configure 
these things might need to be improved (e.g. hints / explanations etc.) 
should it turn out to be a problem.



Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a
unified tiddley-pom
(what's it called?) of your collective back?


No it is not a replacement for anything which might happen in the 
future.


Indeed, as things from the future don't exist *now*, it can't be a 
replacement or fudge or any other way you might want to express it.


It is working with what we have right now and trying things out to see 
if they make what we have right now, better (for appropriate definitions 
of 'better' - in this case, does it make LiveCode 'better' for starting 
out from scratch).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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[OT] Lumpy Custard

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

My grandmother never made custard; mainly because
she knew I had a strongly developed revulsion towards all types of milk 
puddings.


But many, many school dinners were made even more disgusting than they 
already were

by the presence of lumpy custard.

Way back when (i.e. before the descent of the Avatar Saint Jamie Oliver) 
nobody asked the children what they wanted

for school dinner; it was just plonked on the plate.

I hope that the reappearance of the enforced backdrop is NOT like lumpy 
custard,

because mony a chiel mun be well disjaskit forbye.

Richmond.
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 12:54 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> *Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!
> 
> Je voudrais un digestif.
> 
> Richmond.
> *
> On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
>> Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens 
>> quite often.
>> 
>> The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
>> something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
>> useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> +49 5741 31
>> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu  > >‌
>> 
>>> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
>>> >> >>:
>>> 
>>> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
>>> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
>>> unified environment.
>>> 
>>> ~Roger
>>> 
>>> On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> 
 On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
 
> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
> trying out LiveCode for the first time
> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
> 
 Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
 conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
 
 Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
 the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
 still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
 noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
 
 There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
 the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
 what the analysis of results of the testing say.
 
 Warmest Regards,
 
 Mark.
 
 --
 Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com 
 > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
 >
 LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
 
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‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense 
that they have NO computer programming

experience at all?

And a few supplementary questions:

How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the desktop 
"they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious

way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?

Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it 
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a unified 
tiddley-pom

(what's it called?) of your collective back?

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:14 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and 
discussed afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their 
experience and give us feedback on specific points (and generally), 
these are also discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 
'good' an idea is - i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against 
its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does 
having a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps 
with the product, particularly from the point of view of doing the 
first run tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, 
it is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on 
(from various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it 
has actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather 
likes it thick, boy!"




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes 
have finished it is amazing

what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop "as 
a boring colour".


This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on 
which to stay one's eye".


I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark green 
tweed sort of thing)

and they liked that a lot.

You owe me 15 choc-ices.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:14 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and 
discussed afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their 
experience and give us feedback on specific points (and generally), 
these are also discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 
'good' an idea is - i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against 
its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does 
having a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps 
with the product, particularly from the point of view of doing the 
first run tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, 
it is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on 
(from various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it 
has actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather 
likes it thick, boy!"




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our 
intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and discussed 
afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their experience and 
give us feedback on specific points (and generally), these are also 
discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 'good' an idea is - 
i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does having 
a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps with the 
product, particularly from the point of view of doing the first run 
tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, it 
is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on (from 
various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it has 
actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather likes 
it thick, boy!"


--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

As Mark Waddingham expressed, it was only a test.  At least it wasn't
tested in a GM release.  All the fuss about it making LC unusable is a
stretch.

Matthias gave me an idea, so I made a small stack containing the image
which is applied to my desktop as a background, and I saved that to my
plugins folder.  EASY way to clean the desktop of icon mess!!!

This would be a great standard menu item: "Use my desktop image as
backdrop".

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:54 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> *Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!
>
> Je voudrais un digestif.
>
> Richmond.
> *
> On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens
>> quite often.
>>
>> The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does
>> something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very
>> useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> +49 5741 31
>> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌
>>
>> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >:
>>>
>>> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
>>> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
>>> unified environment.
>>>
>>> ~Roger
>>>
>>>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

*Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!

Je voudrais un digestif.

Richmond.
*
On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:


Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!

Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.

There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
what the analysis of results of the testing say.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com  ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 11:55 am, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is 
just conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!


Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something 
like the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people 
who were still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have 
probably noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.


Lumpy custard!

Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list"; 
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


I noticed the backdrop because "there it was" when, having installed 
8.1.6 RC 2, I started it up (Mac OS).


I have just installed that on Linux (64-bit) and got the backdrop at 
startup as well.


I did say a "few rude words", but did not bother to comment on it until 
others raised the issue as it

did not fuss me unduly . . .



There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or 
not the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely 
down to what the analysis of results of the testing say.


What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?

Richmond.



Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer. 

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
> unified environment.
> 
> ~Roger
> 
> On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
>>> trying out LiveCode for the first time
>>> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
>>> 
>> 
>> Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
>> conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
>> 
>> Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
>> the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
>> still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
>> noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
>> 
>> There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
>> the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
>> what the analysis of results of the testing say.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> --
>> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com  ~ 
>> http://www.livecode.com/ 
>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
>> trying out LiveCode for the first time
>> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
>>
>
> Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
> conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
>
> Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
> the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
> still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
> noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
>
> There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
> the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
> what the analysis of results of the testing say.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is 
just conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!


Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like 
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who 
were still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have 
probably noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.


There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not 
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down 
to what the analysis of results of the testing say.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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