On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:
Most of those postings are providing some models, some calculations…
something of substance which, although however speculative, at least that
speculation is backed by some numbers.
There's nothing magical
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:
No, Mary, the endless repetition from the same person of the same old thing
is what annoys me. In one of your posts, where you interspersed your
comments with the other person’s, I counted 4 or 5 instances where
surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
I wrote:
Try placing at thermocouple on a hot pipe, in various spots, under
various
covers. You will find the differences are insignificant.
I did this years ago, working at Hydrodynamics. I happen to have a nice
dual input thermocouple, with a T1
peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
It is necessary to think about unexpected effects:
It is clear, in Rossis setup there was a thermal flow and an unwanted
temperature difference close to the thermoelement.
If the steam inlet was 100 degree and the water outlet was 20 degree then
inbetween in
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum: 08.12.2011 15:59
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
It is necessary to think about unexpected effects
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum: 08.12.2011 15:59
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
It is necessary to think about unexpected effects
[I sent this message with 2 itty-bitty photos attached. It probably
bounced.]
Okay. I did some rudimentary tests with thermocouples taped to the outside
of flexible braided 1/2 inch pipes under my bathroom sink. I can supply the
gory details if anyone is interested. Summary:
I measured in the
peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
How can you say this is incorrect? Do you know everything, great master?
I can say that because Houkes knows what he is doing, other experts
agree with him, and it has been my experience that the water temperature
in a pipe dominates the surface temperature even
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum: 08.12.2011 17:00
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
How can you say this is incorrect? Do you know everything
: peter.heck...@arcor.de
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum: 08.12.2011 17:00
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted
side.
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:09:53 +0100
From: peter.heck...@arcor.de
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum: 08.12.2011 17
All this discussion would be moot if Rossi had bothered to make a run using
the electrical heater to calibrate the measurement system. It wouldn't
rule out cheating but it would rule out cheating by deliberate or
accidental measurement errors.
2011/12/8 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:
[I sent this message with 2 itty-bitty photos attached. It probably
bounced.]
Use something like http://imgur.com/ then share the link.
mic
HAVEN'T made
before.
=m
From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 8:25 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
All this discussion would be moot if Rossi had bothered to make a run using
the electrical
the influence of
ambient air.
Peter
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:09:53 +0100
From: peter.heck...@arcor.de
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht
Von: Jed Rothwelljedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Datum
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:
Mary yet again proves that there are now 101 ways to say the same thing… *
***
we all agree the tests could have been done much better with little effort.
I think that’s enough repetition that most
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
Thermal insulation can be used to avoid heat loss, but because the absolute
temperature was not much above ambient, not much loss is expected. Anyway,
thermal isolation is cheap and would eliminate the influence of ambient air.
1. Rossi's
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
Jed's well intentioned experiments won't help either unless he gets
himself a heat exchanger or properly simulates it with a nice heavy
steam-heated copper . . .
My tests were rudimentary. But in my opinion, they helped a hell a lot more
than weeks and
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
The water temperature dominates. Perhaps if you had a fan blowing on the
thing that would have a measurable effect.
Perhaps if the thermocouple were in contact with or very close to a very
hot steam duct at the input
Am 08.12.2011 20:13, schrieb Jed Rothwell:
Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
Thermal insulation can be used to avoid heat loss, but because the absolute
temperature was not much above ambient, not much loss is expected. Anyway,
thermal isolation is cheap and would eliminate the
Here are a few photos:
http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/T2%20before%20insulating.jpg
http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/T1%20and%20T2%20insulated.jpg
http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/Measuring%20water%20temp%20in%20sink.jpg
By the way the hot water temperature varied from around 55°C up to 65°C.
Am 08.12.2011 20:19, schrieb Jed Rothwell:
Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
Jed's well intentioned experiments won't help either unless he gets
himself a heat exchanger or properly simulates it with a nice heavy
steam-heated copper . . .
My tests were rudimentary. But in my opinion,
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps if the thermocouple were in contact with or very close to a very
hot steam duct at the input end of the primary loop of the heat exchanger
it would have measurable effect?
Perhaps it would if it were very close, but it was not close. You can see
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Houkes is right. Live with it.
When you no longer have to insist repeatedly that something is right, there
might be a chance that it in fact is.
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
If there is an air gap of 0.1mm between metal and thermoelement, then it is
not nonsense.
I doubt that. I would like to see you prove it. I do not think this would
cause even a 0.1°C difference.
Can you suggest a way to deliberately introduce such a
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Here are a few photos:
How does this simulate a copper heat exchanger with steam at the input end
where as it happens, the T out thermocouple is also located nearby?
As Peter Heckert and others observed, simply
Am 08.12.2011 20:53, schrieb Jed Rothwell:
Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
If there is an air gap of 0.1mm between metal and thermoelement, then it is
not nonsense.
I doubt that. I would like to see you prove it. I do not think this would
cause even a 0.1°C difference.
Can you
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
How does this simulate a copper heat exchanger with steam at the input end
where as it happens, the T out thermocouple is also located nearby?
Actually, I was more trying to simulate air trapped under the insulation
with the hot and cold pipes right next
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
Can you suggest a way to deliberately introduce such a small gap? Perhaps
with a thin piece of paper instead of an air gap?
A thin piece of plastics. This is also good for electrical isolation.
Like Saran wrap? (What you wrap sandwiches with.)
I
On 11-12-08 03:16 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Putting a heat source ~4 away on a copper pipe would bring it much
closer than Rossi's arrangement, because the heat exchanger design
would not be good if the heat conducted to the cold end on the outside
of the pipes. The fact that heat exchangers
Am 08.12.2011 21:31, schrieb Jed Rothwell:
Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
Can you suggest a way to deliberately introduce such a small gap? Perhaps
with a thin piece of paper instead of an air gap?
A thin piece of plastics. This is also good for electrical isolation.
Like
Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
In fact, the *goal* of the heat exchanger is to conduct heat from the
primary to the secondary pipes, as rapidly and completely as possible.
Sure, I get that.
Consequently, the primary inlet and the secondary outlet are placed in
extremely
:18 -0500
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
From: jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
If there is an air gap of 0.1mm between metal and thermoelement, then it is not
nonsense.
I doubt that. I would like
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
Like Saran wrap? (What you wrap sandwiches with.)
IDont know.
Polyethylene nowadays. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saran_(plastic)
I probably do not have Saran wrap, but I have something similar.
The thermoelement must not make a hole
Jed, seriously:
If you say, Rossis thermomeasurements are fine, does this mean that you
dont see the possibility for easy and cheap improvements?
All points that are discussed here can be eliminated by better
thermoelement placement almost without efforts and costs.
If somebody does not
Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote:
This is exhausting. You're going to blindly believe any evidence
supporting your conclusion . . .
Well, two different methods give approximately the same answer is better
than zero methods that you can cite.
Rossi is using a herringbone
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote:
If you say, Rossis thermomeasurements are fine, does this mean that you
dont see the possibility for easy and cheap improvements?
Did you read what I wrote about this? What I wrote SEVERAL DOZEN TIMES?!?
Here:
http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm
QUOTE:
Am 08.12.2011 22:17, schrieb Jed Rothwell:
If somebody does not admit this, then he must be a blind mouse.
I not only admitted it, I emphasized it in my report. However, these
problems -- bad as they are -- do not negate the findings.
They do negate the findings. To prove a billion dollar
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Robert Leguillon
robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote:
This is exhausting. You're going to blindly believe any evidence
supporting your conclusion, and if I were to give you 10 distinct reasons
that the thermocouple placement is crap, you'll try to dismiss one,
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for that, Robert. I hope Jed reads it with care several times. I
am a bit surprised he didn't know about counterflow.
Since I discussed the counterflow here previously, you are bit mistaken.
I suggest you explain how a heat exchanger that is
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Did you read what I wrote about this? What I wrote SEVERAL DOZEN TIMES?!?
Unfortunately repetition does not make it true.
Although some experts question these results, most believe that the reactor
must have produced
At 12:54 PM 12/8/2011, Robert Leguillon wrote:
Coming in late on this.
General comments : your plastic-pipe situation is a poor model of Rossi's
copper heat-exchanger manifold.
Let's give you some numbers to
show you how futile this is, and how Houke's method is insufficient to
model the
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
I suggest you explain how a heat exchanger that is ~95% efficient could
conduct a great deal of heat on the outside to a themocouple beyond the
outlet
I think we have some difference of opinion about where exactly and
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Robert Leguillon
robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote:
1) We don't know the flow rate of the primary, but Rossi says it's 15
l/h, and you've never known him to lie, so let's assume 15 l/h, or 4.17 g/s
I don't think this can be right, because this is already
Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:
At 12:54 PM 12/8/2011, Robert Leguillon wrote:
Coming in late on this.
General comments : your plastic-pipe situation is a poor model of Rossi's
copper heat-exchanger manifold.
Very poor. I was testing only one aspect of the claim: the effect of
it! Then that
NEW information can be added to the Collective along with its analysis.
-Mark
From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 11:04 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011
Mary:
Regarding why I don't mind the comments from people proposing possible ways
it IS happening.
Most of those postings are providing some models, some calculations.
something of substance which, although however speculative, at least that
speculation is backed by some numbers. Would
I wrote:
Try placing at thermocouple on a hot pipe, in various spots, under various
covers. You will find the differences are insignificant.
I did this years ago, working at Hydrodynamics. I happen to have a nice
dual input thermocouple, with a T1 - T2 mode, so I will try it again with a
of the pipe exterior would
reflect that of the water within unless another source of heat is contributing.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 7, 2011 6:04 pm
Subject: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
I wrote:
Try placing at thermocouple on a hot pipe, in various spots, under
various covers. You will find the differences are insignificant.
I did this years ago, working at Hydrodynamics. I happen to have a nice
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:22 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
Jed, to be a good test you would need to have a hot pipe connected
metallically a short distance from the cold pipe you were measuring. It
would be ideal if you could obtain a heat exchanger and make a setup very
much
it.
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
From: dlrober...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:22:26 -0500
Jed, to be a good test you would need to have a hot pipe connected metallically
a short distance from the cold pipe you were measuring. It would
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