Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi, I cannot agree with you at all on this. The main point here is that it is save for projects like the BLT to use Wikidata to set up the data for the people they deem to be notable. In this, notable on a Wikipedia level. So the point is to build the list find the sources etc. Now this whole

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hello all, I am a librarian at the New York Botanical Garden and manage the Plants and People project. (Project page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/PlantsAndPeople/Lists_of_Articles ). Having use of the catalog feature within Wikidata to manage the Plants and People project has

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 7 January 2018 at 04:22, Brill Lyle wrote: > Hi Charles, > > Thanks for taking the time to try to understand the issues that are being > raised here. > > - Wikipedia initiatives need a unique identifier in Wikidata they can use > on Wikidata to tag items to their

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hi Charles, I find it frustrating that you did not respond to my response to your post, which directly answered your questions as best I could to give you context and hard data to the outreach work and Wikidata activity within that. Yet you took the time to respond to Pigs'. Pigs has done

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 6 January 2018 at 02:51, Dan Brickley wrote: > > > Looking at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P972 and poking around > in query.wikidata.org, http://tinyurl.com/y6v9tab7 > > May I suggest we explore some modest tweaks to the definition, e.g. > > Instead of "catalog

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 7 January 2018 at 02:05, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Understandably you may not be aware that this is a fork of discussions > on Wikidata, where several of the points you raise have already been > addressed. See: > >

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi David, No you are not a bully. Indeed as you suggested, "catalog" was used because there was no agreement to be had for a new property. It is why the repurposing of an existing property was accepted. Having data makes it easier because it is relatively easy to replace one property (including

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Thank you. This 16 year library veteran is utterly confounded by this concept of "catalog" (does that make me a bully?). If that was the best option available at some prior point- repurposing some property for some new need- all well and good. But it seems clear it was (and is) not a clear,

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

My understanding of identifiers and authorities is that they come from established entities, i.e., VIAF contributors http://www.oclc.org/en/viaf/contributors.html If we can query off a BLT identifier that would be great. But the task list items don't have unique identifiers established -- and

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

These projects all have namespaces on En Wikipedia. If there was consensus that the projects should have Wikidata namespaces -- if that is something the community would allow and would embrace, that would be something I would support doing. - Erika *Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi, What do you mean by an "invitation" ? I do not see how that applies. Thanks, GerardM On 6 January 2018 at 18:03, LeadSongDog wrote: > Erika, > Well, any authority record for each event could capture location, date, > and links to the invitation and any

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Erika, Well, any authority record for each event could capture location, date, and links to the invitation and any generated products externally to wiki worlds. Would that not be constructive in the context of establishing wikidatan notability? > On Jan 6, 2018, at 10:42 AM, Brill Lyle

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 9:53 AM Brill Lyle wrote: > Yes. This is the crux of the matter, the big question: *"I'm not sure we > should store this kind of data on Wikidata."* > So, I miss the ideas and mantra we had in Freebase. "some data is better than no data". It

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Yes. This is the crux of the matter, the big question: *"I'm not sure we should store this kind of data on Wikidata."* I disagree with "*Point 2 and 3 are for the BLT community to solve.*" In the interest of transparency, Gerard, myself, and BLT came to and are coming to the Wikidata community

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hi LeadSongDog, Yes that is an article that is part of the press list that the Black Lunch Table has generated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Black_Lunch_Table/Press Again, not a huge fan of using refs to justify an outreach initiative. Plus would it be necessary to use this ref

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hi Charles, Thanks for taking the time to try to understand the issues that are being raised here. - Wikipedia initiatives need a unique identifier in Wikidata they can use on Wikidata to tag items to their initiative -- and most importantly run SPARQL queries on -- I don't think a Q number will

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 6 January 2018 at 14:21, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > So by changing the venue and determining that another discussion is more > "important" you reduce the relevance of what is happening. You also change > the discussion. Gerard, I have done none of these things, Stop

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi, So by changing the venue and determining that another discussion is more "important" you reduce the relevance of what is happening. You also change the discussion. That discussion is already old. That discussion came more or less to a conclusion. Its conclusion is not accepted by all. So

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 6 January 2018 at 01:34, Charles Horn wrote: > As a relatively recent contributor to Wikidata, I have been struggling to > understand the objections to the Black Lunch Table's use of the catalog > property and the points of view behind this discussion. Understandably

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

I have now created a property proposal for a new property, "Wikidata focus list", to act as a drop-in replacement for some current uses of P972. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Wikidata_focus_list Let's sort this thing out. -- James. On 06/01/2018 10:40, Maarten

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 05-01-18 22:55, Jane Darnell wrote: I object to your use of the catalog property to link to something that is not a catalog. I don't see why my objection leads you to expect me to offer an alternative way to track your project. I am not responsible for your project and don't understand what

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

*list moderator hat on" Folks, can we please have this discussion without calling people names and so on? Wikidata is supposed to be better than this. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

has to be done without a reference. Making these things clear would help to >> reduce the temperature of this discussion. >> - LeadSongDog >> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 at 8:33 AM >> From: "Brill Lyle" <wp.brilll...@gmail.com> >> To: "

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Jane, When you object, you provide an opinion. In your objection you do not provide an argument. So there is little substance. At the time when the suggestion was made to use catalog, it was with the understanding that the data build could easily be converted to another property that is accepted

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi, Charles, thank you for the analysis. You missed some points. It is not only about the Black Lunch Table, there are other organisations involved in the development of Wikimedia content that make a similar use of the "catalog" property. Organisations like the Smithsonian, the Library of the

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hi Jane, Erika, and everybody else, As a relatively recent contributor to Wikidata, I have been struggling to understand the objections to the Black Lunch Table's use of the catalog property and the points of view behind this discussion. I have read all the emails, and all the linked to

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Jane, I think the narrow definition of catalog and its use as a unique identifier to collocate outreach initiatives might be the issue here. Not asking you to be responsible for any outreach projects at all. I think that is very clear. Don't appreciate your comment on Wikidata editing. Through

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

the Wikidata project." < > wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach > Hi Jane, > > Actually, "the rest of your email is irrelevant" illustrates the > problem. I am a bit baffled at this statement. > > The rest o

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

This might work except it’s not an accurate representation of what BLT is using the catalog property for. BLT holds roundtables in ADDITION to editathons. And how do other initiatives use this who are needing the same unique identifier but have no roundtable as part of their initiative. This

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

On 5 January 2018 at 22:10, Thad Guidry wrote: > Jane has now put herself into that terrible hurtful persona of a bully Do we have list moderators who can deal with this outrageous - not to mention fallacious - ad-hominem slur? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

In looking further into this, I strongly feel that my suggestion of "participant of" is a really nice fit for this use case. A few things are needed to make it comfortable for all. 1. Add a new topic in Wikipedia called "Black Lunch Table Artist Roundtable" and subclass it as an Event to

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Ericka, I am speaking up for those that are being bullied now. I have to. I must. Yes there are bullies on Wikipedia and within the GLAM effort. Jane has now put herself into that terrible hurtful persona of a bully and is not being helpful to you but toxic and not representative of our

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

I object to your use of the catalog property to link to something that is not a catalog. I don't see why my objection leads you to expect me to offer an alternative way to track your project. I am not responsible for your project and don't understand what it is. If you can't understand that then

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

ings clear would help to reduce the temperature of this discussion.  - LeadSongDog Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 at 8:33 AM From: "Brill Lyle" <wp.brilll...@gmail.com> To: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikidat

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

I am confused at this statement as it seems very chicken-egg circular: "I still don't see why this project needs any special property at all when you can create listeria lists from unordered lists of item numbers. If you have a list anywhere on a Wikipedia project, you can also run queries using

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hi Jane, Actually, "the rest of your email is irrelevant" illustrates the problem. I am a bit baffled at this statement. The rest of the email is the *whole point*, and dismissing it illustrates the actual problem here. If Wikidatans don't want to hear about or learn about the context of the

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi, Jane, you fail to understand it. We do not "just publish a catalog somewhere" that is EXACTLY not what is done, Wikidata is given a purpose. The purpose is to prepare editathons for Wikipedia articles. This implies that all the entries have English Wikipedia notability. It implies that there

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Yes to exactly this part of your email: "Gerard and I thought we had consensus on this, but apparently not. We need to find some solution that will address all concerns." The rest of your email is irrelevant to using the property for "catalog" on person items on Wikidata when there is no catalog.

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

First off, thanks so much for the support and assistance in understanding the work being done here. Thanks to those editors who restored the wholesale deletion of the catalog property. Secondly: While the Black Lunch Table is unique in both its scope and outreach, other projects are using the

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

OK thanks Gerard for clarifying. On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:01 PM Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > Neither is valid. Artists recognised by the Black Lunch Table are subject > of the attention to write articles in (a) Wikipedia. They do not > participate in and they are

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

"tagging" for classification sake, Thomas. Others understand what I mean. Not confused, thanks. -Thad ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

For the record, tagging has noting to do with the « part of » properties as defined by Help:Basic Membership Properties whatsoever. Please don’t confuse genericity with lack of precision and Giant Mess … 2018-01-04 17:10 GMT+01:00 Thad Guidry : > > "relatedness" or

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

And you simply add need to add a statement (whatever that is) under "Q28781198" Black Lunch Table that is has a Wikidata project page. Pretty simple and solves both uses. The modeling can be drastically simplified. Use Topics themselves more often. I see this problem that we don't actually

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

So this is for internal classification only ? Wouldn't it be useful to think of the approach that I mentioned to help externally as well and show relationships ? For instance, I'd like to know that a particular artist was part of the Black Lunch Table. That's useful information, no ? -Thad

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

I think James Heald is on the right track, that we should be thinking about a different or new property. This is a valuable thing to track, and we should work to find a solution that is satisfactory to everyone, and that lets this positive effort continue. (Black Lunch Table is a bit of a sui

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Better to use P4570, or a new bespoke property, since the things these people are being tagged to be part of, or participants in, like "Black Lunch Table", are not external real-world things, but internal wiki-world projects. It is useful to maintain a distinction between the two -- it helps

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

"relatedness" or "tagging" is typically handled generically in Wikidata through the use of "part of" and "has part" properties. They work terrifically well to apply some generic classification needs such as those of the Black Lunch Table efforts. So, an alternative to the current modeling could

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

To amplify what Gerard wrote: To think of how P972 "catalog" = "Black Lunch Table" was being used, a useful analogy is to think of the way one might add a maintenance category for files on Commons -- not to give any assertion of notability or importance, but simply to mark a group of things

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Hoi,, Jane sorry but that is not how it is. At the time there was a request for a new property. The discussion went into the never never land of personal opinions. It ended with the suggestion of using the catalog property. This suggestion was accepted. Literally thousands of edits were made as a

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

Brill Lyle, It seems you have not reached consensus to use the catalog property in the way you have been doing, and your edits are now being reverted after not responding to various objections that can be seen in the links you have provided. If the "Black Lunch Table" catalog is published, either

[Wikidata] Wikidata + Wikipedia outreach

So User:Multichill has taken it upon himself to delete all of the catalog entries for the Black Lunch Table. One of the first if not only successful implementations of Wikidata as a task list for Wikipedia. There are other initiatives also using catalog, which I assume will also be deleted.