Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Hoi, No point in automating NPOV, we are not at a point where we can. Where we are is a point where we can collect all sources used to prove a point, any point. We are at a point where we can indicate what sources are used to prove or disprove any given point. Now a NPOV does not mean that facts

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Hi Tomasz, whereas you are right in theory, a practical application of this method requires (i) availability and acceptance of all these sources in the community (for example, if one side published in Croatian and another one published in English, Croatian Wikipedia is likely to use only sources

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Vast majority of sources in controversial topics are usually biased. There are topics where there is in fact no any non-biased sources. And - coming back to my previous example, having knowledge how automatic method o bias measurement works it is very easy to bully it: "According to unfaithful

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Yes the method can miss bias. But if the references* used are* biased, it would provide clear, objective (though not irrefutable) evidence of a general bias. The more factual the discussion, the more likely it will be that any conclusions of the process will be accepted, if not by all at Croatia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

I don't clearly understand Gerard what is your idea. Do you want to measure NPOV by calculating how often the sources are used after somehow marking them to belong to one or another group of political, religous or other type of POV? And when you find that one group of them are more often cited

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

A quick comment: there are some sympthoms the process is totally broken there. Reasoning about sources works fine when the process works, it's completely useless otherwise. See Dalibor Bosits@hrwiki for example.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

My cellphone spellchecker substituted "faith" for "fact". I was trying to encourage the use of your approach. On Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 06:43 Gerard Meijssen Hoi, > I take offence calling it a faith-based process. We have a database with > the citations of all Wikipedias. We have overriding

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Hoi, I take offence calling it a faith-based process. We have a database with the citations of all Wikipedias. We have overriding principles that include the NPOV and what the role of functionaries is in Wikimedia projects. When they are a faith, they are our faith. My question to you is, why are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Why not test-run the process on my favorite project - or yours? We should get started. I am skeptical of the quality of judgment without a foundation of facts. At Wiktionary we have two main definition evaluation processes, one dependent on citations to which interpretative judgment is applies.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:06 AM Dennis During wrote: > > Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et al as > the new press barons? All of our work on the projects necessarily involves making judgments. As a movement we have largely decided that editors on individual

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Excuse for what? Whatever process is used needs to have integrity to be accepted. We are supposed to be inclusive and transparent, right? On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 15:15 David Gerard Forgive me, but this is coming across as hopping from excuse to excuse. > On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 at 18:03, Dennis

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Forgive me, but this is coming across as hopping from excuse to excuse. On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 at 18:03, Dennis During wrote: > > It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly. In this case I > think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process applied. > I hope that the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

It is important that any wiki process be applied fairly. In this case I think the Croatian wiki cannot be the first to have a new process applied. I hope that the process that Gerard recommends has been validated in some way that meets with broad, nearly universal approval. On Tue, Nov 27, 2018

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Hoi, We have a database with all the citations of all Wikipedias. That database is integrated in wikidata as we speak. What we should do is eat our own medicine and compare sources on the same subject when the subject is controversial. Our overriding policy is for Wikipedia to have a neutral point

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

History does not require a judge. It's the storiography to be judge. Here the problem is to give relevance to some sources and to neglect (completely) others. If a single not neutral source is considered as the Holy Bible, the same pillars of Wikipedia are infringed. Kind regards On Mon, 26

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

I think that this case is so complicated that the admin or the steward sometimes are not prepared to face a big problem like this. They evaluate two opinions without having a background to define what is true and what is not. In this case the evaluation can be not neutral. Anyways the bias us

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Who is the judge? Are we going to join Facebook, Google, Twitter, et al as the new press barons? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

Since no one is pure we should accept and embrace intolerant and hateful propaganda in Wikimedia projects? Is that the argument you are making, Dennis? Chico Venancio Em seg, 26 de nov de 2018 09:55, Dennis During It's a good thing that our thoughts and deeds are so pure that we have > become

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

It's a good thing that our thoughts and deeds are so pure that we have become entitled to purify the thoughts and deeds of others. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

[Wikimedia-l] Croatian Wikipedia: persisting far-right bias?

This mailing list is usually positive, but we need to talk about something rotten. I was linked to this Meta RfC by my Russian colleague: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Administrator_abuse_on_the_Croatian_Wikipedia The author and commentators, with notable evidence, allege