Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
I don't think there is anything to fear at all and I am also not sad to see the encyclopedias go the way of LP's. Goodbye and good riddance. I have always been addicted to reading and get annoyed in the bus when it moves too fast for me to read something I see outside somewhere. As a child I always read the encyclopedia entries before and after the one I was looking up. Big time-waster. Today I am a huge fan of CTL-F (or Apple-F for you apple-eaters). In this film they look up the entry on reading which apparently has many meanings. When I look it up in the 1911 encyclopedia today I only see one entry (for a place, not the activity). On the English Wikipedia, this is a rather long disambiguation page today. The information found there is not something that big media and publishing companies put there - it is the result of lots of humble wikipedian-worker-bees over the course of several years. Off the top of my head just glancing at the list I feel certain it is far from complete (where's poetry reading?). Wikipedia is here to stay, long live Wikipedia! http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/RAY_RHU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada emi...@gmail.com wrote: It is interesting to see the reactions, but it just shows the change in how information is saved, disseminated and consumed, from analog to digital medium. I am more worried about how many encyclopedias have closed in the last years. We are moving to a world where Wikipedia is the de facto encyclopedia. This have evolved faster than the concentration of media ownership,[1] and it is dangerous in my opinion. Furthermore, references are links to published works, and who decides what is published or not? The big media and publishing companies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership 2015-07-14 22:22 GMT+02:00 Renata St renataw...@gmail.com: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. These kids will never know the frustration when you tried looking something up in those dusty volumes only to find minimal information (stub) or, worse yet, nothing on the topic. And the nagging feeling it left you with because your curiosity was not satisfied and you thirsted for more, but there was nothing else! And so when Wikipedia came around it was this wondrous thing where information was seemingly limitless and endless. And it was expanding at dizzying speeds. And you could add more! It was the answer to my childhood fantasy of having the limitless encyclopedia that answered every questions. And it filed my heart with joy and satisfaction not unlike the joy of a child in candy story (yes, I am a geek). Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. Renata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
On 2015-07-15 06:47, Pine W wrote: I agree that finding correct, accurate, current, and NPOV information can be a challenging task, and media literacy is an important skill these days. Good research tasks today go beyond the goal of finding just any book, magazine, journal or webpage that asserts a certain fact. Pine ___ And actually we are already at the stage where these skills become in dispensable for anyone who wants to successfully contribute to Wikipedia. With a very few exceptions (recent sporting results etc) all low-hanging fruit is gone, and one needs to have access to digitized and paper sources, have skills in understanding these sources, and often have some language skills since many needed sources are not in English. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
Yaroslav, I agree with the second part but disagree with the first part. I think there is still lots and lots of low-hanging fruit, but because we tightened up policies to only include new articles with links to digitized and paper sources, we demand higher skills of Wikipedian editors. The threshold of entry for editors has become higher, but certainly not difficult. I think we still need to explore ways to empower new editors to give them the feeling that their contributions are both valued and needed. Jane On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-07-15 06:47, Pine W wrote: I agree that finding correct, accurate, current, and NPOV information can be a challenging task, and media literacy is an important skill these days. Good research tasks today go beyond the goal of finding just any book, magazine, journal or webpage that asserts a certain fact. Pine ___ And actually we are already at the stage where these skills become in dispensable for anyone who wants to successfully contribute to Wikipedia. With a very few exceptions (recent sporting results etc) all low-hanging fruit is gone, and one needs to have access to digitized and paper sources, have skills in understanding these sources, and often have some language skills since many needed sources are not in English. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
It is interesting to see the reactions, but it just shows the change in how information is saved, disseminated and consumed, from analog to digital medium. I am more worried about how many encyclopedias have closed in the last years. We are moving to a world where Wikipedia is the de facto encyclopedia. This have evolved faster than the concentration of media ownership,[1] and it is dangerous in my opinion. Furthermore, references are links to published works, and who decides what is published or not? The big media and publishing companies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership 2015-07-14 22:22 GMT+02:00 Renata St renataw...@gmail.com: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. These kids will never know the frustration when you tried looking something up in those dusty volumes only to find minimal information (stub) or, worse yet, nothing on the topic. And the nagging feeling it left you with because your curiosity was not satisfied and you thirsted for more, but there was nothing else! And so when Wikipedia came around it was this wondrous thing where information was seemingly limitless and endless. And it was expanding at dizzying speeds. And you could add more! It was the answer to my childhood fantasy of having the limitless encyclopedia that answered every questions. And it filed my heart with joy and satisfaction not unlike the joy of a child in candy story (yes, I am a geek). Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. Renata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
Oh, the encyclopedias in books, my childhood love and betrayed love! I read encyclopedias as other read comic books, and even read books like statistical yearbooks, table per table And my sense of betrayal when I learnt that wile I thought I had learned knowledge I instead had in way learned misinformation. When Sputnik appeared and the space race around 1960, my books had no info later the 1949 and not a word of Russia being in the race. And having read about races and negroes, probably state of the art when written in 1930-ies, I did not got knowledge that was valid even in the early 1960. And how they quelled my curiosity. When did the population of New York surpass that of London? All my books could not answer that, only giving sizes for a specific year. After my love for encyclopedias ended in frustration when I was i my high-teens, I have regained it now with Wikipedia. Here the info is updated, if he topic is controversial you can read of it and that it is. And how easy it is to find answers coming from many different sources. So the skill of looking up things in written books may have gone down, but the support to satisfy curiosity have grown exponentially. And is not what it is all about. to proved knowledge to grow curiosity in all mankind? Anders Renata St skrev den 2015-07-14 22:22: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. These kids will never know the frustration when you tried looking something up in those dusty volumes only to find minimal information (stub) or, worse yet, nothing on the topic. And the nagging feeling it left you with because your curiosity was not satisfied and you thirsted for more, but there was nothing else! And so when Wikipedia came around it was this wondrous thing where information was seemingly limitless and endless. And it was expanding at dizzying speeds. And you could add more! It was the answer to my childhood fantasy of having the limitless encyclopedia that answered every questions. And it filed my heart with joy and satisfaction not unlike the joy of a child in candy story (yes, I am a geek). Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. Renata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
Hi Renata: Please don't despair. When I was growing up (I'm pushing 69) there were definitely encyclopedias but they surely were not the *only research tools*. Information was available, you just had to really dig for it - go to the library, comb through the card catalogue, go into the stacks, find the books, gather the information you needed, write it out by hand on paper (there were no copiers), and note the source for the information on the set of 3 x 5 index cards that you collected for the research project; or have the research librarian retrieve the newspapers, or periodicals, or white papers or mirco film and repeat what you did with the books; write it out by hand on paper (again, no copiers), and note the source for the information on the set of 3 x 5 index cards that you collected for the research project. Then you took all the information home, hand wrote the paper and once you were happy with it, you typed it out on a manual typewriter, making sure that you spaced it so that there would be enough room at the bottom for the footnotes for each particular page. If you had to make more than one copy, you put carbon paper in between the sheets of paper and if you made a mistake, you carefully corrected every page, making sure not to smudge the carbon or allow the papers and the carbon to shift out of alignment. If you needed more than 4 copies you typed the paper on a mimeograph stencil. If you made a mistake on the stencil, you used a mat knife and carefully scraped the error off the back of the top sheet, cut a corner off the stencil at the bottom and inserted that in the space between the top sheet and the stencil back and typed the letter(s) again, making sure that you did not accidentally let the top sheet or the stencil slip in the typewriter roller, because if you did all of your alignment would be off for the rest of the paper. There was a fluid to correct errors, but it never worked very well. When the paper was done, you put the stencil on a mimeograph machine and cranked it by hand until the stencil impression was no longer deep enough to make copies. If you needed more copies, you had to cut another stencil by re-typing the entire paper. I know this probably sounds like I had to hike 20 miles to school with snow up to my waist - which I didn't - but I offer it only to say that we humans are a pretty persistent and creative bunch and when determined enough we can make things work. Sometimes, having to really dig for something makes it all that much more precious. Take care, Amy On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Renata St renataw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. These kids will never know the frustration when you tried looking something up in those dusty volumes only to find minimal information (stub) or, worse yet, nothing on the topic. And the nagging feeling it left you with because your curiosity was not satisfied and you thirsted for more, but there was nothing else! And so when Wikipedia came around it was this wondrous thing where information was seemingly limitless and endless. And it was expanding at dizzying speeds. And you could add more! It was the answer to my childhood fantasy of having the limitless encyclopedia that answered every questions. And it filed my heart with joy and satisfaction not unlike the joy of a child in candy story (yes, I am a geek). Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. Renata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Amy Vossbrinck* *Executive Assistant to the* *Chief of Finance and Administration, Garfield Byrd* *Wikimedia Foundation* *149 New Montgomery Street* *San Francisco, CA 94105* *415.839.6885 ext 6628* *avossbri...@wikimedia.org avossbri...@wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
Thank you for sharing this, Renata -- cool video! But I think I'm taking the exact opposite from it. It makes me happy. It seems to me these kids love information -- and are eager to say so! -- and love books, too, most of them expressed sadness at the idea of books disappearing (but also, shock at the idea that an encyclopedia would cost $1500). I do think you have a good point, that the absence of Wikipedia in our early lives provided big motivation for many of us to devote energy to creating Wikipedia. I'm not sure that spells doom for Wikipedia, though -- rather, I'd say different kinds of motivation (more specific to one's passions and interests, rather than a general desire to build a comprehensive compendium) will fuel the next wave of Wikipedians. People will probably value knowledge in different ways as it becomes more abundant and less centralized, but I have a hard time believing they will *cease* to value knowledge. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Renata St renataw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. These kids will never know the frustration when you tried looking something up in those dusty volumes only to find minimal information (stub) or, worse yet, nothing on the topic. And the nagging feeling it left you with because your curiosity was not satisfied and you thirsted for more, but there was nothing else! And so when Wikipedia came around it was this wondrous thing where information was seemingly limitless and endless. And it was expanding at dizzying speeds. And you could add more! It was the answer to my childhood fantasy of having the limitless encyclopedia that answered every questions. And it filed my heart with joy and satisfaction not unlike the joy of a child in candy story (yes, I am a geek). Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. Renata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
On 14 July 2015 at 21:22, Renata St renataw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. So I saw this YouTube video yesterday about kids reacting to printed encyclopedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7aJ3xaDMuMnoredirect=1 It made me sad. And very fearful of the future of Wikipedia. These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. You would have been 8 years old when Encarta was launched. Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. Eh you always hit walls sooner or later. A lot of information is still buried in libraries (the best soruce I'm aware of for theThe jewelry of roman Britain is a book written in 1996). Other stuff is behind paywalls or is commercially sensitive. Or simply doesn't exist (there doesn't seem to be a solid history of calshot castle anywhere). They will not have the same love that is required to edit Wikipedia and write quality articles. And it makes me sad. I think there will be other motivations. -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
I know this probably sounds like I had to hike 20 miles to school with snow up to my waist - which I didn't - but I offer it only to say that we humans are a pretty persistent and creative bunch and when determined enough we can make things work. Sometimes, having to really dig for something makes it all that much more precious. That is my point exactly. The kids these days don't struggle like that - type in google, hit enter, and boom! No digging required. Served on a silver platter. And you don't develop appreciation for something you don't struggle for. No struggle = no appreciation = no labor of love creating it for others. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
These kids do not appreciate knowledge and information because they grew up with its abundance. When I was growing up (and I am only 30), printed encyclopedia was the only research tool. You would have been 8 years old when Encarta was launched. I am from a small non-English speaking country. There was lack of even general books on topics because on how small the population (3.5 million). I remember I had to do a long research paper on India (history, geography, culture, religion, etc.). You would think easy - India is a big, interesting country. Surely there must be books on it. Not so much... Unless you wanted to read someone's travel impressions from 30 years ago for 300 pages. Finding the info was the biggest struggle. And so we had this 12-volume encyclopedia. And it was was like the crown jewel of our possessions. My mom forbade me to mark anything (even with a pencil) at all on the pages. Those kids never deprived of knowledge and information will never know how precious it is. Eh you always hit walls sooner or later. A lot of information is still buried in libraries (the best soruce I'm aware of for theThe jewelry of roman Britain is a book written in 1996). Other stuff is behind paywalls or is commercially sensitive. Or simply doesn't exist (there doesn't seem to be a solid history of calshot castle anywhere). You are talking about niche, specialized topics graduate students might care. Yes, there is still a lot of info locked in the dead-tree world, but anything that an average high school kid might need is in overabundance on the Internet (Wikipedia included). In fact, I am becoming convinced that for this new generation filtering the info from the flood out there will be a lot more valuable skill than finding info. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
I agree that finding correct, accurate, current, and NPOV information can be a challenging task, and media literacy is an important skill these days. Good research tasks today go beyond the goal of finding just any book, magazine, journal or webpage that asserts a certain fact. Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Future of Wikipedia
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for sharing this, Renata -- cool video! But I think I'm taking the exact opposite from it. It makes me happy. It seems to me these kids love information -- and are eager to say so! -- and love books, too, most of them expressed sadness at the idea of books disappearing (but also, shock at the idea that an encyclopedia would cost $1500). I do think you have a good point, that the absence of Wikipedia in our early lives provided big motivation for many of us to devote energy to creating Wikipedia. I'm not sure that spells doom for Wikipedia, though -- rather, I'd say different kinds of motivation (more specific to one's passions and interests, rather than a general desire to build a comprehensive compendium) will fuel the next wave of Wikipedians. People will probably value knowledge in different ways as it becomes more abundant and less centralized, but I have a hard time believing they will *cease* to value knowledge. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] +1 -- ~Keegan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address is in a personal capacity. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
