Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hi Ziko,

When WMPT was forced by AffCom early this year to change the old chapter
agreement we had signed in 2009 for a new one, which we were told was the
current model for everyone, the main difference between the two was
precisely the end of the chapter hegemony over the national territory. We
were told, back then, that those were the new rules. You can read it here:
https://pt.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter_agreement

Personally, I don't mind that in the least. If some caution is taken by
AffCom, e.g., to not approve rogue affiliates which at it's very inception
are already at war with the national chapter (or "post/pre"-chapter
affiliate, as AffCom has done in Brazil back in 2015, causing all the mess
everybody knows), all is cool. Spain has already something like 5 or 6
affiliates, and they seem to live happily in peace. If it works, let it go.

Best,
Paulo

Ziko van Dijk  escreveu no dia segunda, 7/10/2019 à(s)
12:50:

> Sorry, people, but I would like to read an official statement of the WMF
> (committee) what is the reason or rationale behind this policy to accept WM
> user groups in countries where you already have a chapter. Does anybody
> have a link?
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
> Am Sa., 5. Okt. 2019 um 19:16 Uhr schrieb Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi Farhad,
> >
> > Very interesting, thank you very much for sharing your insight.
> > The advantages at an organizational level are quite obvious, indeed, and
> > it's a smart way to deal with those membership limitations.
> > I'm glad that the WMF & Wikimedia is abandoning the very rigid chapter
> > model as the preferred one, and is evolving into more flexible and
> nuanced
> > options and varieties, such as those confederations.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> > Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin  escreveu no dia
> > sábado, 5/10/2019 à(s) 15:38:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a
> > > Tatar language-specific UG.
> > > On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on
> > > meta, I am also contemplating and working towards starting a
> > > territory-specific UG for my region + an incubator UG for more
> > > language-specific UG in the languages of Russia.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global
> > conference
> > > - regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF &
> > affiliates
> > > general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each
> > > addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst
> > cooperating
> > > in various projects.
> > >
> > > * Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for
> > > decision-making, etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all
> > > members of all our regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our
> > chapter
> > > is evolving towards a mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming
> > > some members from various groupings around Russia (which themselves
> can't
> > > be neither cells nor branches of WMRU).
> > >
> > > * SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of
> > the
> > > Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring
> > > Republic of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of
> > > Moscow).
> > >
> > > * Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia
> > > Russia into a collective entity for join tasks, working on
> national-level
> > > advocacy & other projects.
> > >
> > > * We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one
> > > more at the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally
> > or
> > > topically interested public into Wikimedia universe.
> > >
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > farhad
> > >
> > > --
> > > Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan
> /
> > > Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Chris Keating]

Hi Ziko,

I believe the only "official" rationale is in the 2012 Board resolution:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Resolutions/Recognizing_Models_of_Affiliations

and the thinking behind this is documented here, also from 2011-12.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project

I do not know of any serious discussion on the subject until 2019, when a
you may know the Roles and Responsibilities strategy working group looked
at this and similar issues, and came to the conclusion that we should move
away from the idea of "WMF and affiliates"  to a more distributed approach
with a network of equal entities filling different roles, and more
structures to support and coordinate between them. (There are some
similarities between that and what the Wikimedians in Russia seem to be
moving towards organically, which is interesting.)

Chris



On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:50 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Sorry, people, but I would like to read an official statement of the WMF
> (committee) what is the reason or rationale behind this policy to accept WM
> user groups in countries where you already have a chapter. Does anybody
> have a link?
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
> Am Sa., 5. Okt. 2019 um 19:16 Uhr schrieb Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi Farhad,
> >
> > Very interesting, thank you very much for sharing your insight.
> > The advantages at an organizational level are quite obvious, indeed, and
> > it's a smart way to deal with those membership limitations.
> > I'm glad that the WMF & Wikimedia is abandoning the very rigid chapter
> > model as the preferred one, and is evolving into more flexible and
> nuanced
> > options and varieties, such as those confederations.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> > Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin  escreveu no dia
> > sábado, 5/10/2019 à(s) 15:38:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a
> > > Tatar language-specific UG.
> > > On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on
> > > meta, I am also contemplating and working towards starting a
> > > territory-specific UG for my region + an incubator UG for more
> > > language-specific UG in the languages of Russia.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global
> > conference
> > > - regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF &
> > affiliates
> > > general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each
> > > addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst
> > cooperating
> > > in various projects.
> > >
> > > * Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for
> > > decision-making, etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all
> > > members of all our regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our
> > chapter
> > > is evolving towards a mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming
> > > some members from various groupings around Russia (which themselves
> can't
> > > be neither cells nor branches of WMRU).
> > >
> > > * SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of
> > the
> > > Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring
> > > Republic of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of
> > > Moscow).
> > >
> > > * Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia
> > > Russia into a collective entity for join tasks, working on
> national-level
> > > advocacy & other projects.
> > >
> > > * We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one
> > > more at the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally
> > or
> > > topically interested public into Wikimedia universe.
> > >
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > farhad
> > >
> > > --
> > > Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan
> /
> > > Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Ziko van Dijk]

Sorry, people, but I would like to read an official statement of the WMF
(committee) what is the reason or rationale behind this policy to accept WM
user groups in countries where you already have a chapter. Does anybody
have a link?
Kind regards
Ziko

Am Sa., 5. Okt. 2019 um 19:16 Uhr schrieb Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Farhad,
>
> Very interesting, thank you very much for sharing your insight.
> The advantages at an organizational level are quite obvious, indeed, and
> it's a smart way to deal with those membership limitations.
> I'm glad that the WMF & Wikimedia is abandoning the very rigid chapter
> model as the preferred one, and is evolving into more flexible and nuanced
> options and varieties, such as those confederations.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
> Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin  escreveu no dia
> sábado, 5/10/2019 à(s) 15:38:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a
> > Tatar language-specific UG.
> > On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on
> > meta, I am also contemplating and working towards starting a
> > territory-specific UG for my region + an incubator UG for more
> > language-specific UG in the languages of Russia.
> >
> >
> > Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global
> conference
> > - regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF &
> affiliates
> > general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each
> > addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst
> cooperating
> > in various projects.
> >
> > * Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for
> > decision-making, etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all
> > members of all our regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our
> chapter
> > is evolving towards a mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming
> > some members from various groupings around Russia (which themselves can't
> > be neither cells nor branches of WMRU).
> >
> > * SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of
> the
> > Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring
> > Republic of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of
> > Moscow).
> >
> > * Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia
> > Russia into a collective entity for join tasks, working on national-level
> > advocacy & other projects.
> >
> > * We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one
> > more at the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally
> or
> > topically interested public into Wikimedia universe.
> >
> >
> > regards,
> > farhad
> >
> > --
> > Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan /
> > Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hi Farhad,

Very interesting, thank you very much for sharing your insight.
The advantages at an organizational level are quite obvious, indeed, and
it's a smart way to deal with those membership limitations.
I'm glad that the WMF & Wikimedia is abandoning the very rigid chapter
model as the preferred one, and is evolving into more flexible and nuanced
options and varieties, such as those confederations.

Best,
Paulo


Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin  escreveu no dia
sábado, 5/10/2019 à(s) 15:38:

> Hi folks,
>
> I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a
> Tatar language-specific UG.
> On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on
> meta, I am also contemplating and working towards starting a
> territory-specific UG for my region + an incubator UG for more
> language-specific UG in the languages of Russia.
>
>
> Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global conference
> - regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF & affiliates
> general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each
> addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst cooperating
> in various projects.
>
> * Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for
> decision-making, etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all
> members of all our regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our chapter
> is evolving towards a mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming
> some members from various groupings around Russia (which themselves can't
> be neither cells nor branches of WMRU).
>
> * SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of the
> Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring
> Republic of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of
> Moscow).
>
> * Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia
> Russia into a collective entity for join tasks, working on national-level
> advocacy & other projects.
>
> * We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one
> more at the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally or
> topically interested public into Wikimedia universe.
>
>
> regards,
> farhad
>
> --
> Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan /
> Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga]

Thanks for the clarification and the insights. This could be a really 
interesting organizative model for huge countries, even for countries with more 
than one chapter but not a country level one, as happens in the USA.

2019 urr. 5 4:38 PM erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad 
Fatkullin ):

Hi folks,

I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a Tatar 
language-specific UG.
On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on meta, I 
am also contemplating and working towards starting a territory-specific UG for 
my region + an incubator UG for more language-specific UG in the languages of 
Russia.

Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global conference - 
regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF & affiliates 
general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each 
addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst cooperating in 
various projects.

* Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for decision-making, 
etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all members of all our 
regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our chapter is evolving towards a 
mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming some members from various 
groupings around Russia (which themselves can't be neither cells nor branches 
of WMRU).

* SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of the 
Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring Republic 
of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of Moscow).

* Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia Russia 
into a collective entity for join tasks, working on national-level advocacy & 
other projects.

* We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one more at 
the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally or topically 
interested public into Wikimedia universe.

regards,
farhad

--
Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan / 
Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin]

Hi folks,

I can probably comment this, as a member of both Wikimedia Russia and a Tatar 
language-specific UG.
On top of participation in Wikimedia Language Diversity initiative on meta, I 
am also contemplating and working towards starting a territory-specific UG for 
my region + an incubator UG for more language-specific UG in the languages of 
Russia.


Wikimedians of Russia seem to see the matreshkas of (1) "global conference - 
regional conference - topic-specific conferences"  & (2) WMF & affiliates 
general meeting - national chapters - UGs" as natural structures, each 
addressing different tasks, having different priorities, whilst cooperating in 
various projects.

* Wikimedia Russia legal requirements (in-person quorum for decision-making, 
etc.) doesn't allow us to accept into membership all members of all our 
regional, language or topic specific UGs. So our chapter is evolving towards a 
mixed confederation status, selectively welcoming some members from various 
groupings around Russia (which themselves can't be neither cells nor branches 
of WMRU).

* SPB is not purely a city, but a one of 85 provinces (read states) of the 
Russian Federation (like my home Republic of Tatarstan, neighbouring Republic 
of Bashkortostan with its Bashkir Wiki-grandmas, or a city of Moscow).

* Once we will spin out UG MSK, we will complete transforming Wikimedia Russia 
into a collective entity for join tasks, working on national-level advocacy & 
other projects.

* We currently have 5 existing UGs, have two more filed & at least one more at 
the preparation stage - as this is a good way to engage locally or topically 
interested public into Wikimedia universe.


regards,
farhad

-- 
Farhad Fatkullin - Фархад Фаткуллин Тел.+79274158066 / skype:frhdkazan / 
Wikipedia:frhdkazan / Wikidata:Q34036417

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

BTW, I seem to recall that in last ASBS election, affiliates which
presented something like 70% member overlap with another affiliate would
not be allowed to participate in the process.
If this practice is kept, it avoids gaming the system (intentionally or
unintentionally) through a multiplication of affiliates which are basically
cells or clones of one of them.

If this is safeguarded, cell-style affiliates probably can become a nice
feature.

Paulo

Paulo Santos Perneta  escreveu no dia sábado,
5/10/2019 à(s) 00:45:

> Hey,
>
> "*1) if a group has more active cores, maybe they should be more broadly
> represented in Berlin. Maybe these constructs shouldn't be necessary.*"
> -> I can agree with that point, yes;
> "*2) No matter how much some care about the ASBS, I doubt that this will
> be a driving force to get more bureaucracy (because that is the cost of
> setting up a UG).*" - I respect your opinion, but IMO getting to have
> increased, or even decisive power on the election of 2 of the 5 members
> (which in turn appoint and confirm the other 5) of the board of one of the
> biggest players and stakeholders of modern days, as the Wikimedia
> Foundation has been growing into progressively, is indeed a powerful driven
> force. Furthermore, as far as I know, bureaucratic requirements for UGs are
> really low, and in line with a department or cell would have to report to
> the mother organization. I'm not saying or even suggesting this was the
> driven force behind the formation of the SPUG, I certainly assume good
> faith. I'm saying that it may be a driven force for similar cases presented
> as local affiliates more or less explicitly under the umbrella of a
> national chapter to pop up. And this aspect can be potentially unfair, and
> even amount to abuse of the system, as a trick to gather more votes;
> *"3) funding for local activities is probably not really a consideration
> in the case of Russia, where foreign funding is (to put it mildly)
> 'complicated'.* I mentioned funding, not WMF funding necessarily. It's
> perfectly understandable that a locally registered association may have, in
> some contexts, more easy access to funds than a national one. I live in an
> autonomous region where it is very common, so I understand it may be indeed
> a legitimate reason to create and register a local affiliate. No idea if
> that is the case of Saint Petersburg, but if it is, it's a smart move.
>
> Basically, I'm not criticizing this approval - I've no idea what is behind
> the group formation, though I assume the members have the best intentions,
> and it actually looks like a smart move. I'm just curious if this will
> become a trend, and how will it develop.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> effe iets anders  escreveu no dia sexta,
> 4/10/2019 à(s) 21:39:
>
>> Sure, if you want to see it through that lens I guess you could argue
>> such.
>> However, just to put things in perspective: 1) if a group has more active
>> cores, maybe they should be more broadly represented in Berlin. Maybe
>> these
>> constructs shouldn't be necessary. 2) No matter how much some care about
>> the ASBS, I doubt that this will be a driving force to get more
>> bureaucracy
>> (because that is the cost of setting up a UG). 3) funding for local
>> activities is probably not really a consideration in the case of Russia,
>> where foreign funding is (to put it mildly) 'complicated'.
>>
>> Lets assume for the sake of the discussion that the group has legitimate
>> reasons to request affiliate status (although I have my assumptions, I'm
>> curious what tipped the scale).
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > This is a very interesting strategy for any well developed affiliate. It
>> > allows :
>> >
>> > * decentralization, and stronger local groups, now as full fledged
>> > affiliates
>> > * more seats in Berlin and other conferences
>> > * more votes in the ASBS election
>> > * less financial burden over the national chapter, and additional
>> funding
>> > for local activities.
>> >
>> > Huge and well established chapters like WMDE could easily set up dozens
>> of
>> > local affiliates, with great advantage.
>> >
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 4 de out de 2019, 08:04, Philip Kopetzky <
>> > philip.kopet...@gmail.com>
>> > escreveu:
>> >
>> > > I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the
>> approach
>> > > and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be
>> an
>> > > integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the
>> national
>> > > chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
>> > > within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these
>> conflicts by
>> > > setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a
>> recent
>> > > example of this).
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Philip
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders <
>> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hey,

"*1) if a group has more active cores, maybe they should be more broadly
represented in Berlin. Maybe these constructs shouldn't be necessary.*" ->
I can agree with that point, yes;
"*2) No matter how much some care about the ASBS, I doubt that this will be
a driving force to get more bureaucracy (because that is the cost of
setting up a UG).*" - I respect your opinion, but IMO getting to have
increased, or even decisive power on the election of 2 of the 5 members
(which in turn appoint and confirm the other 5) of the board of one of the
biggest players and stakeholders of modern days, as the Wikimedia
Foundation has been growing into progressively, is indeed a powerful driven
force. Furthermore, as far as I know, bureaucratic requirements for UGs are
really low, and in line with a department or cell would have to report to
the mother organization. I'm not saying or even suggesting this was the
driven force behind the formation of the SPUG, I certainly assume good
faith. I'm saying that it may be a driven force for similar cases presented
as local affiliates more or less explicitly under the umbrella of a
national chapter to pop up. And this aspect can be potentially unfair, and
even amount to abuse of the system, as a trick to gather more votes;
*"3) funding for local activities is probably not really a consideration in
the case of Russia, where foreign funding is (to put it mildly)
'complicated'.* I mentioned funding, not WMF funding necessarily. It's
perfectly understandable that a locally registered association may have, in
some contexts, more easy access to funds than a national one. I live in an
autonomous region where it is very common, so I understand it may be indeed
a legitimate reason to create and register a local affiliate. No idea if
that is the case of Saint Petersburg, but if it is, it's a smart move.

Basically, I'm not criticizing this approval - I've no idea what is behind
the group formation, though I assume the members have the best intentions,
and it actually looks like a smart move. I'm just curious if this will
become a trend, and how will it develop.

Best,
Paulo

effe iets anders  escreveu no dia sexta,
4/10/2019 à(s) 21:39:

> Sure, if you want to see it through that lens I guess you could argue such.
> However, just to put things in perspective: 1) if a group has more active
> cores, maybe they should be more broadly represented in Berlin. Maybe these
> constructs shouldn't be necessary. 2) No matter how much some care about
> the ASBS, I doubt that this will be a driving force to get more bureaucracy
> (because that is the cost of setting up a UG). 3) funding for local
> activities is probably not really a consideration in the case of Russia,
> where foreign funding is (to put it mildly) 'complicated'.
>
> Lets assume for the sake of the discussion that the group has legitimate
> reasons to request affiliate status (although I have my assumptions, I'm
> curious what tipped the scale).
>
> Lodewijk
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > This is a very interesting strategy for any well developed affiliate. It
> > allows :
> >
> > * decentralization, and stronger local groups, now as full fledged
> > affiliates
> > * more seats in Berlin and other conferences
> > * more votes in the ASBS election
> > * less financial burden over the national chapter, and additional funding
> > for local activities.
> >
> > Huge and well established chapters like WMDE could easily set up dozens
> of
> > local affiliates, with great advantage.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 4 de out de 2019, 08:04, Philip Kopetzky <
> > philip.kopet...@gmail.com>
> > escreveu:
> >
> > > I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the
> approach
> > > and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be an
> > > integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the
> national
> > > chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
> > > within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these conflicts
> by
> > > setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a
> recent
> > > example of this).
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Philip
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders <
> effeietsand...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
> > > > Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
> > > > comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
> > > > Wikimedia Russia.
> > > >
> > > > The question about process is still an interesting one though (what
> is
> > > > nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations)
> when
> > a
> > > > user group application comes in from a geographic area with an active
> > > > affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could
> > > continue
> > > > the comparison with what 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[effe iets anders]

Sure, if you want to see it through that lens I guess you could argue such.
However, just to put things in perspective: 1) if a group has more active
cores, maybe they should be more broadly represented in Berlin. Maybe these
constructs shouldn't be necessary. 2) No matter how much some care about
the ASBS, I doubt that this will be a driving force to get more bureaucracy
(because that is the cost of setting up a UG). 3) funding for local
activities is probably not really a consideration in the case of Russia,
where foreign funding is (to put it mildly) 'complicated'.

Lets assume for the sake of the discussion that the group has legitimate
reasons to request affiliate status (although I have my assumptions, I'm
curious what tipped the scale).

Lodewijk


On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

> This is a very interesting strategy for any well developed affiliate. It
> allows :
>
> * decentralization, and stronger local groups, now as full fledged
> affiliates
> * more seats in Berlin and other conferences
> * more votes in the ASBS election
> * less financial burden over the national chapter, and additional funding
> for local activities.
>
> Huge and well established chapters like WMDE could easily set up dozens of
> local affiliates, with great advantage.
>
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 4 de out de 2019, 08:04, Philip Kopetzky <
> philip.kopet...@gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
> > I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the approach
> > and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be an
> > integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the national
> > chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
> > within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these conflicts by
> > setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a recent
> > example of this).
> >
> > Best,
> > Philip
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
> > > Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
> > > comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
> > > Wikimedia Russia.
> > >
> > > The question about process is still an interesting one though (what is
> > > nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations) when
> a
> > > user group application comes in from a geographic area with an active
> > > affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could
> > continue
> > > the comparison with what happens if an application would come in from
> > South
> > > of Nevsky (a neighborhood in St. Petersburg).
> > >
> > > Lodewijk
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a national
> > > > chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
> > > > Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell, but
> > the
> > > > way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP, with
> > same
> > > > Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.
> > > >
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > Yuri Astrakhan  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > 3/10/2019
> > > > à(s) 23:06:
> > > >
> > > > > What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational
> > status)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't
> > > > believe
> > > > > > it compares with a city UG.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paulo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > > > 3/10/2019
> > > > > > à(s) 22:53:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> > > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently
> > it's
> > > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's a curious precedent.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia
> > > Community
> > > > > > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ___
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > >  > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > ___
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 23:02, Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:

> Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019


>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
>>  wrote:
>>
> > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> >basically a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> >
> > It's a curious precedent.

> > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
> > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).

> Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't believe
> it compares with a city UG.

Who made any comparison of Wales to a city?

The issue under discussion was a UG as "basically a cell of" a national chapter.

[Though if you do want such a comparison, St. P.'s population is near
double that of Wales]

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

This is a very interesting strategy for any well developed affiliate. It
allows :

* decentralization, and stronger local groups, now as full fledged
affiliates
* more seats in Berlin and other conferences
* more votes in the ASBS election
* less financial burden over the national chapter, and additional funding
for local activities.

Huge and well established chapters like WMDE could easily set up dozens of
local affiliates, with great advantage.

Paulo



A sexta, 4 de out de 2019, 08:04, Philip Kopetzky 
escreveu:

> I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the approach
> and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be an
> integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the national
> chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
> within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these conflicts by
> setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a recent
> example of this).
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
> > I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
> > Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
> > comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
> > Wikimedia Russia.
> >
> > The question about process is still an interesting one though (what is
> > nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations) when a
> > user group application comes in from a geographic area with an active
> > affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could
> continue
> > the comparison with what happens if an application would come in from
> South
> > of Nevsky (a neighborhood in St. Petersburg).
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a national
> > > chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
> > > Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell, but
> the
> > > way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP, with
> same
> > > Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.
> > >
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > Yuri Astrakhan  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 3/10/2019
> > > à(s) 23:06:
> > >
> > > > What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational
> status)
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't
> > > believe
> > > > > it compares with a city UG.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paulo
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > > 3/10/2019
> > > > > à(s) 22:53:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently
> it's
> > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's a curious precedent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia
> > Community
> > > > > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > >  > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Philip Kopetzky]

I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the approach
and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be an
integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the national
chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these conflicts by
setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a recent
example of this).

Best,
Philip


On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders 
wrote:

> I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
> Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
> comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
> Wikimedia Russia.
>
> The question about process is still an interesting one though (what is
> nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations) when a
> user group application comes in from a geographic area with an active
> affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could continue
> the comparison with what happens if an application would come in from South
> of Nevsky (a neighborhood in St. Petersburg).
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a national
> > chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
> > Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell, but the
> > way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP, with same
> > Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Yuri Astrakhan  escreveu no dia quinta,
> 3/10/2019
> > à(s) 23:06:
> >
> > > What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational status)
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't
> > believe
> > > > it compares with a city UG.
> > > >
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > 3/10/2019
> > > > à(s) 22:53:
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a curious precedent.
> > > > >
> > > > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia
> Community
> > > > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[effe iets anders]

I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
Wikimedia Russia.

The question about process is still an interesting one though (what is
nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations) when a
user group application comes in from a geographic area with an active
affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could continue
the comparison with what happens if an application would come in from South
of Nevsky (a neighborhood in St. Petersburg).

Lodewijk

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

> Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a national
> chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
> Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell, but the
> way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP, with same
> Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.
>
> Paulo
>
> Yuri Astrakhan  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
> à(s) 23:06:
>
> > What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational status)
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > paulospern...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't
> believe
> > > it compares with a city UG.
> > >
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 3/10/2019
> > > à(s) 22:53:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> > > > basically
> > > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a curious precedent.
> > > >
> > > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
> > > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andy Mabbett
> > > > @pigsonthewing
> > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a national
chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell, but the
way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP, with same
Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.

Paulo

Yuri Astrakhan  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
à(s) 23:06:

> What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational status)
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't believe
> > it compares with a city UG.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta,
> 3/10/2019
> > à(s) 22:53:
> >
> > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> > > basically
> > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > > >
> > > > It's a curious precedent.
> > >
> > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
> > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy Mabbett
> > > @pigsonthewing
> > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Yuri Astrakhan]

What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational status)

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

> Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't believe
> it compares with a city UG.
>
> Paulo
>
> Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
> à(s) 22:53:
>
> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> > basically
> > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> > >
> > > It's a curious precedent.
> >
> > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
> > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I don't believe
it compares with a city UG.

Paulo

Andy Mabbett  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
à(s) 22:53:

> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
>
> > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
> basically
> > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
> >
> > It's a curious precedent.
>
> The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
> User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:

> Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's basically
> a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
>
> It's a curious precedent.

The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia Community
User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

I don't see a problem with sending several representatives to the Wikimedia
Summit, instead of 1, as would be the case if there was only Wikimedia
Russia (that would be a Wikimedia Summit problem). But cells of Wikimedia
Russia or other national chapters voting for ASBS elections is a different
thing, as it unfairly duplicates the vote of the communities that follow
that strategy.

Paulo

Mārtiņš Bruņenieks  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
à(s) 21:04:

> Hello!
>
> There are different aspects to this trend.
> In upcoming CEE Meeting in Belgrade there will be 9 people from different
> affiliates based in Russia. There are other examples you can explore in
> official participant list from other countries, too [1]
>
> As long as there is no system abuse, I see this as a valid way for Erzya
> language or different Albanian language communities in different countries
> to grow their capacity.
> It might not seem fair, but on the other hand it can seem unfair that in
> the past both large and small affiliates could send 2 representatives each.
>
>  Mārtiņš
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2019/Participants/List
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:46 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's
>> basically a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
>>
>> It's a curious precedent.
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>> Asaf Bartov  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019
>> à(s) 20:41:
>>
>>> Ziko: Yes, it is about the major Russian city.  And one of its listed
>>> contacts is the longstanding president of Wikimedia Russia itself.
>>>
>>> Philip: this is not an example of a large country being "split up",
>>> since Wikimedia Russia is still around, and was not broken up.  It is also
>>> not the first user group operating within Russia, nor even the first group
>>> with a geographic remit.[1]
>>>
>>>A.
>>>
>>> [1] e.g. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don_Wikimedians_User_Group
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ziko van Dijk 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hello Philip,

 I was asking the same question - isn't there already a Wikimedia
 Rossiya -
 but I guess this is the User Group of Saint Petersburg in Florida (USA),
 not Sankt Peterburg in Russia.
 Oh wait... this IS about the city in Russia!

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group

 Kind regards
 Ziko

 Am Do., 3. Okt. 2019 um 16:15 Uhr schrieb Philip Kopetzky <
 philip.kopet...@gmail.com>:

 > Hi Kirill,
 >
 > so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up
 into
 > different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for
 the
 > future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the
 Russian
 > community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris,
 Munich
 > or Sydney for example?
 >
 > Best,
 > Philip
 >
 > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin >>> >
 > wrote:
 >
 > > Hi everyone!
 > >
 > > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has
 recognized
 > > [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a
 Wikimedia
 > User
 > > Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St.
 Petersburg, to
 > > support the development of content on topics related to St.
 Petersburg
 > > across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia
 projects
 > and
 > > movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the
 > Wikimedia
 > > community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media
 institutions
 > in
 > > St. Petersburg.
 > >
 > > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
 > >
 > > Regards,
 > > Kirill Lokshin
 > > Chair, Affiliations Committee
 > >
 > > [1]
 > >
 >
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
 > > [2]
 > >
 >
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
 > > ___
 > > Affiliates mailing list
 > > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
 > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
 > >
 > ___
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 ,
 > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if apparently it's basically
a cell of Wikimedia Russia?

It's a curious precedent.

Paulo

Asaf Bartov  escreveu no dia quinta, 3/10/2019 à(s)
20:41:

> Ziko: Yes, it is about the major Russian city.  And one of its listed
> contacts is the longstanding president of Wikimedia Russia itself.
>
> Philip: this is not an example of a large country being "split up", since
> Wikimedia Russia is still around, and was not broken up.  It is also not
> the first user group operating within Russia, nor even the first group with
> a geographic remit.[1]
>
>A.
>
> [1] e.g. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don_Wikimedians_User_Group
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:
>
>> Hello Philip,
>>
>> I was asking the same question - isn't there already a Wikimedia Rossiya -
>> but I guess this is the User Group of Saint Petersburg in Florida (USA),
>> not Sankt Peterburg in Russia.
>> Oh wait... this IS about the city in Russia!
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Ziko
>>
>> Am Do., 3. Okt. 2019 um 16:15 Uhr schrieb Philip Kopetzky <
>> philip.kopet...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > Hi Kirill,
>> >
>> > so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up into
>> > different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for the
>> > future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the
>> Russian
>> > community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris,
>> Munich
>> > or Sydney for example?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Philip
>> >
>> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi everyone!
>> > >
>> > > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has
>> recognized
>> > > [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a Wikimedia
>> > User
>> > > Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St. Petersburg,
>> to
>> > > support the development of content on topics related to St. Petersburg
>> > > across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia projects
>> > and
>> > > movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the
>> > Wikimedia
>> > > community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media
>> institutions
>> > in
>> > > St. Petersburg.
>> > >
>> > > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Kirill Lokshin
>> > > Chair, Affiliations Committee
>> > >
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>> > > [2]
>> > >
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>> > > ___
>> > > Affiliates mailing list
>> > > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
>> > >
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > 
>> ___
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>
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Asaf Bartov]

Ziko: Yes, it is about the major Russian city.  And one of its listed
contacts is the longstanding president of Wikimedia Russia itself.

Philip: this is not an example of a large country being "split up", since
Wikimedia Russia is still around, and was not broken up.  It is also not
the first user group operating within Russia, nor even the first group with
a geographic remit.[1]

   A.

[1] e.g. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don_Wikimedians_User_Group

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello Philip,
>
> I was asking the same question - isn't there already a Wikimedia Rossiya -
> but I guess this is the User Group of Saint Petersburg in Florida (USA),
> not Sankt Peterburg in Russia.
> Oh wait... this IS about the city in Russia!
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
> Am Do., 3. Okt. 2019 um 16:15 Uhr schrieb Philip Kopetzky <
> philip.kopet...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi Kirill,
> >
> > so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up into
> > different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for the
> > future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the
> Russian
> > community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris,
> Munich
> > or Sydney for example?
> >
> > Best,
> > Philip
> >
> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone!
> > >
> > > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has
> recognized
> > > [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a Wikimedia
> > User
> > > Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St. Petersburg, to
> > > support the development of content on topics related to St. Petersburg
> > > across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia projects
> > and
> > > movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the
> > Wikimedia
> > > community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media institutions
> > in
> > > St. Petersburg.
> > >
> > > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kirill Lokshin
> > > Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
> > > ___
> > > Affiliates mailing list
> > > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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> 



-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello Philip,

I was asking the same question - isn't there already a Wikimedia Rossiya -
but I guess this is the User Group of Saint Petersburg in Florida (USA),
not Sankt Peterburg in Russia.
Oh wait... this IS about the city in Russia!
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group

Kind regards
Ziko

Am Do., 3. Okt. 2019 um 16:15 Uhr schrieb Philip Kopetzky <
philip.kopet...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Kirill,
>
> so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up into
> different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for the
> future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the Russian
> community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris, Munich
> or Sydney for example?
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
> > [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a Wikimedia
> User
> > Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St. Petersburg, to
> > support the development of content on topics related to St. Petersburg
> > across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia projects
> and
> > movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the
> Wikimedia
> > community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media institutions
> in
> > St. Petersburg.
> >
> > Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kirill Lokshin
> > Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
> > [2]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
> > ___
> > Affiliates mailing list
> > affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Lane Rasberry]

A usergroup for every city!

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:15 AM Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Hi Kirill,
>
> so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up into
> different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for the
> future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the Russian
> community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris, Munich
> or Sydney for example?
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone!
>>
>> I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
>> [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User
>> Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St. Petersburg, to
>> support the development of content on topics related to St. Petersburg
>> across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia projects and
>> movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the Wikimedia
>> community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media institutions in
>> St. Petersburg.
>>
>> Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kirill Lokshin
>> Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>
>> [1]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>> [2]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
>> ___
>> Affiliates mailing list
>> affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
>>
> ___
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> affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
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>


-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Recognition of the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group

[Philip Kopetzky]

Hi Kirill,

so it seems like geographically large countries are being split up into
different user groups - do you think that this is a viable model for the
future or just happened because of certain circumstances within the Russian
community? Would your template allow a User Group from Rome, Paris, Munich
or Sydney for example?

Best,
Philip

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 12:20, Kirill Lokshin 
wrote:

> Hi everyone!
>
> I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
> [1] the Wikimedians of Saint Petersburg User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User
> Group. The group aims to unite Wikimedians living in St. Petersburg, to
> support the development of content on topics related to St. Petersburg
> across different Wikimedia projects, to promote the Wikimedia projects and
> movement in St. Petersburg, and to build partnerships between the Wikimedia
> community and cultural, scientific, educational, and media institutions in
> St. Petersburg.
>
> Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!
>
> Regards,
> Kirill Lokshin
> Chair, Affiliations Committee
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Saint_Petersburg_User_Group
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