Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Angela]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 7:51 AM, Virtual Steve
 wrote:
> Liam in response to your message below,
>
> I find myself firmly in agreement with Andrew's caution as to what is said
> that the Chapter supported, particularly given that a new board is about to
> be elected.  I am also concerned by the timing of the release of this
> information so close to that election as it tends to leave an inaccurate
> impression on the new board as to what are its earliest points of agenda.

I'm sorry if I gave any implication that this needs to be an early
agenda point. It doesn't. In fact, the board about to be elected is
not even the one that needs to give their support. By current
schedules, the bid doesn't need to be in until January 2011 - the next
board's terms will have expired by then. There really is a long time
for other bids to be prepared before anyone needs to decide which
one(s) will actually be submitted to the jury, if any.

Angela

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Nick Jenkins]

> A quick raw search on flight prices from Frankfurt, Germany, San
> Francisco, USA and even Taipei, Taiwan, seem to suggest that the two
> most plausible cities for an Australian bid would be Sydney and
> Melbourne (I also plugged in Canberra and Perth, for comparison's
> sake).

Yep, Sydney and Melbourne are definitely the two most reachable
Australian cities for all possible participants (both international &
local). Both would be good, and there are plus and minuses of each,
e.g.:

Melbourne:
* Plus: trams make getting around relatively easy, and there's a skybus
from the airport to Southern Cross station, but Minus: it's a bit
confusing to then get the tram from the bus stop, if you've never done
it before.
* Plus: Uni Melb has a good central location, and has dorm rooms
on-campus, assuming it's available & the price is okay.
* Plus: the night markets make a good evening activity.
* Possible minus: in July/August, Melbourne might potentially not have
the best weather?


Sydney:
* Minus: Sydney's international airport arrivals sucks, especially the
arrivals hall with the long queues as they x-ray scan every bag, plus
the transport out of the airport sucks (queues for taxis, expensive
trains, overpriced car park fees, etc). No idea how Melbourne
international arrivals compares, since I have never disembarked an
international flight in Melbourne.
* Plus: Darling Harbour is a great conference venue, and some of the
unis could also be good.
* Possible minus: Is there nearby accommodation, and if so at what cost
to attendees?
* Plus: It's not too hard to come up with activities that are likely to
appeal to international visitors (e.g. trip to Taronga Zoo: ride a ferry
on the harbour, get a great view of the harbour bridge + opera house,
feed a kangaroo, hold a koala, be frightened by an emu, etc).


Both cities would be absolutely fine, IMHO, in terms of being reachable
to wide base of attendees & providing suitable venues and activities.
Really comes down to what the local people are willing & able to do
towards organising, and what support/sponsorship/assistance they can get
from local external organisations. 


> On the matter of chapter support, I have no doubt that the chapter
> will
> support a bid at some point and I do not think we should go ahead
> unless
> the chapter does support it. That however is for the future. I have
> some
> sympathy for Steve's view that this, 2 days from the AGM, is not the
> time to
> be discussing this. The new committee will have other things on its
> plate when it takes over.

Okay, but why not give the local members of cities interested in bidding
the chapter's permission to approach possible venues / sponsors /
government events groups / like-minded organisations, to scope out
what's involved / the facilities available / the best way to run it /
how much it would cost, as long as it's made crystal-clear it's scoping
at this stage? I don't see what we lose from that, the chapter doesn't
need to do anything else about it until this research is done, everyone
is operating under the same rules & opportunities, and if the bids are
able to learn from each other and we end up with several well-developed
bids, then that's a good thing and not a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents!

-- All the best,
Nick.


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Delphine Ménard]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 22:42, Brian Salter-Duke  wrote:

> On the matter of chapter support, I have no doubt that the chapter will
> support a bid at some point and I do not think we should go ahead unless
> the chapter does support it. That however is for the future. I have some
> sympathy for Steve's view that this, 2 days from the AGM, is not the time to
> be discussing this. The new committee will have other things on its
> plate when it takes over.

And exactly for that reason, I would suggest that while the support of
Wikimedia Australia should be sought as a "great thing to have", it
should not in any way be the beginning and the end of an Australian
bid.

Don't kill the chapter over the bid, don't kill the bid over the
chapter, would be my advice.


Delphine

-- 
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Brian Salter-Duke]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 07:25:35AM +1000, Craig Franklin wrote:
> Delphine,
> 
> Thanks for the background.  From my understanding, one of the major factors
> that sunk the Brisbane '09 bid was a lack of chapter support.  I don't want
> to sound overly negative, but it would be very disappointing if a lot of
> people went to the effort of putting a bid together only to fail for the
> same reasons that Brisbane failed.

Another reason why Brisbane was not successful could well be the point
that Delphine made in another post, that the city must have an
international airport with flights from everywhere. Getting to Australia
is expensive and to minimise the cost, the only possible cities are, as
delphine says, Sydney or Melbourne.

On the matter of chapter support, I have no doubt that the chapter will
support a bid at some point and I do not think we should go ahead unless
the chapter does support it. That however is for the future. I have some
sympathy for Steve's view that this, 2 days from the AGM, is not the time to
be discussing this. The new committee will have other things on its
plate when it takes over.

Cheers, Brian
 
> Cheers,
> Craig
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Delphine
> Ménard
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2009 9:49 PM
> To: Wikimedia-au
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012
> 
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:57, Craig Franklin  wrote:
> > Angela,
> >
> > Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?  Having
> > been the bid leader for the last time an Australian city took a tilt at
> > this, I'd say that it's necessary to have committed support from the
> chapter
> > to have any hope at all of success.  I see that supporting the bid is a
> part
> > of Liam's election platform, but I really think it's not appropriate to
> > count on the chapter's enthusiastic support for a Sydney '12 bid without
> > some sort of chapter-wide discussion on whether that's the best location
> and
> > the best time to bid.  I'm not saying that the idea of bidding is without
> > merit, but I do think that this might not be the best time to proceed.  In
> > fact, when the chapter membership was polled in March, there seemed to
> very
> > little to no support for bidding in 2011
> > (http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2009_member_goals_survey), and I'm not
> > sure that opinions on the topic have changed wildly since then.
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, chapter support for other bids (Gdansk, for
> example), were not always acquired from the start. I do not see how
> putting up a bid is in any way presumptuous of having the national
> chapter's support, no more than I believe that chapter support is
> absolutely necessary to lead a bid to success. What makes the success
> of a bid is a dedicated organizing team, who can mobilize the right
> resources (and those might include mobilizing the chapter's resources)
> at the right time.
> 
> Wikimedia Germany never really supported the Frankfurt Wikimania more
> than saying "ah cool", there was no chapter backing Wikimania in
> Cambridge, the chapter was created in Taiwan just for Wikimania and
> did not survive the event, Wikimania in Alexandria was backed up by no
> chapter. Only Wikimania in Buenos Aires and Wikimedia Argentina had
> really strong ties. Wikimedia Polska was one of many supporters of the
> Gdansk bid, but as far as I am aware, not the organisation "carrying"
> the bid to start with.
> 
> Finally, if Wikimania is _ever_ going to get to Australia, I think
> that thinking about it 2 years in advance is the least that should be
> done.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Delphine
> (organizer of 3 Wikimanias out of 5).
> 
> -- 
> ~notafish
> 
> NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will
> get lost.
> Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive -
> http://blog.notanendive.org
> 
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-- 
 Brian Salter-Duke   treasu...@wikimedia.org.au  
   Treasurer and Public Officer, Wikimedia Australia Inc.
   Active on English Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki, Wikiversity, and others.
[[User:Bduke]] is single user account with en:Wikipedia main account.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Craig Franklin]

Delphine,

Thanks for the background.  From my understanding, one of the major factors
that sunk the Brisbane '09 bid was a lack of chapter support.  I don't want
to sound overly negative, but it would be very disappointing if a lot of
people went to the effort of putting a bid together only to fail for the
same reasons that Brisbane failed.

Cheers,
Craig

-Original Message-
From: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Delphine
Ménard
Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2009 9:49 PM
To: Wikimedia-au
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:57, Craig Franklin  wrote:
> Angela,
>
> Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?  Having
> been the bid leader for the last time an Australian city took a tilt at
> this, I'd say that it's necessary to have committed support from the
chapter
> to have any hope at all of success.  I see that supporting the bid is a
part
> of Liam's election platform, but I really think it's not appropriate to
> count on the chapter's enthusiastic support for a Sydney '12 bid without
> some sort of chapter-wide discussion on whether that's the best location
and
> the best time to bid.  I'm not saying that the idea of bidding is without
> merit, but I do think that this might not be the best time to proceed.  In
> fact, when the chapter membership was polled in March, there seemed to
very
> little to no support for bidding in 2011
> (http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2009_member_goals_survey), and I'm not
> sure that opinions on the topic have changed wildly since then.


For what it's worth, chapter support for other bids (Gdansk, for
example), were not always acquired from the start. I do not see how
putting up a bid is in any way presumptuous of having the national
chapter's support, no more than I believe that chapter support is
absolutely necessary to lead a bid to success. What makes the success
of a bid is a dedicated organizing team, who can mobilize the right
resources (and those might include mobilizing the chapter's resources)
at the right time.

Wikimedia Germany never really supported the Frankfurt Wikimania more
than saying "ah cool", there was no chapter backing Wikimania in
Cambridge, the chapter was created in Taiwan just for Wikimania and
did not survive the event, Wikimania in Alexandria was backed up by no
chapter. Only Wikimania in Buenos Aires and Wikimedia Argentina had
really strong ties. Wikimedia Polska was one of many supporters of the
Gdansk bid, but as far as I am aware, not the organisation "carrying"
the bid to start with.

Finally, if Wikimania is _ever_ going to get to Australia, I think
that thinking about it 2 years in advance is the least that should be
done.


Cheers,

Delphine
(organizer of 3 Wikimanias out of 5).

-- 
~notafish

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will
get lost.
Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive -
http://blog.notanendive.org

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Delphine Ménard]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 21:51, Virtual Steve  wrote:

> In relation to the bid itself, whilst I can understand action to get bids in
> early, suggesting support (real or tacit) by the chapter for the current
> early bid will make us look disjointed, if we as a chapter agree later to
> support a bid in another part of the country.  Indeed there are many reasons
> why Sydney may not be the best suggested location of a chapter supported bid
> and that point alone is worth discussion, by the community and the
> committee.


For what it's worth, and as a past organizer of Wikimania (both as a
volunteer and as staff of the Wikimedia Foundation), as well as a
member of the jury for the past 3 years, there is one thing that I am
pretty sure of. That is that if Wikimania is going to happen in
Australia, whoever is organizing it will have to make sure that it
stays reachable for as many people as possible.

This means the following:
1- that the airport that will be used as a landing point for Wikimania
is an international airport and easily reachable from pretty much
everywhere in the world (we've done one Wikimania 100 km away from the
closest international airport, I don't think we should do that ever
again). If transfers can be kept to one in the course of the travel,
then it should be done.
2- that the international flights should yield the best possible price
from pretty much everywhere on the world.
3- if we want to minimize the impact of 2-, then we need a heck of a
lot of sponsors for travel. 1- stays true in all circumstances.

A quick raw search on flight prices from Frankfurt, Germany, San
Francisco, USA and even Taipei, Taiwan, seem to suggest that the two
most plausible cities for an Australian bid would be Sydney and
Melbourne (I also plugged in Canberra and Perth, for comparison's
sake).


Delphine

Disclaimer: My sister lives in Melbourne, so I can't be accused of
pushing Sydney ;-)



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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Andrew]

I hope my previous posts were not seen as a desire to stop developing bids.

My emphasis was more on chapter or national support for a bid, which can
only come through dialogue and working together. As someone who, no matter
where it is held, will have to travel a long way to go there to support it,
I'd actually like the opportunity to measure up well-crafted bids and see
how they compare and ask questions of the bid teams before offering my
support, and I'm sure a fair number of Wikimedians are in the same
situation. Favouring a potential bid from one city from the outset without
considering the wider picture (i.e. where is the best place to host it? what
resources do we have? etc) risks alienating key stakeholders and also risks
the chance of success of the bid / event, and our reputation with it if we
tie our colours to the mast.

Furthermore it shouldn't be forgotten that the chapter's foundational goal -
its raison d'etre - is to promote and facilitate free cultural works.
GLAM-WIKI was an excellent start to this. Other stuff - NLA, ABS etc - is
happening around us as well, those are all positive developments. The
Powerhouse Museum and Queensland Museum, which our chapter's members
directly facilitated, are two more great examples. We have many in the GLAM
sector and even some key senators and members of the Gov 2.0 taskforce on
side. That progress needs to be consolidated.

2009/11/26 Gnangarra 

> The BES people were actively canvassing us for the possabillity of a bid
> from Sydney. Australia will only get one opportunity in the next 5
> years(more likely 10) to host a Wikimania we need to maximise the opporunity
> for locals to attend . I see nothing wrong with starting a sydney bid page
> especially given that there is specific interest from the convention
> industry and we are gathering much needed information/experience/knowledge
> anyway. One thing that Canberra/GLAM-Wiki did show was that without outside
> assistance(AWM, Dictionary of Sydney, WMF) we didnt have the resources to
> host a small scale national event. Another experience which the committee
> was also able to learn is that the WM-au committee can only do so much but
> without a highly dedicated local organiser(or group) the outcome is going to
> much different. From what I'm seeing we have Liam, Angela with BES support
> working towards Sydney 2011/2012, there is no reason for them to stop
> developing a bid from Sydney nor is there any barrier for another location
> to also submit a bid. WM-au should be supportive of all bids even if there
> is more than one Australian city bidding because which ever is successful
> the members are the ones that will benefit, also because WM-au members arent
> just from Sydney nor Melbourne but right across the country the committee
> should be working to get the best possible outcomes for all members that
> outcome is a Wikimania in Australia.
>
> 2009/11/26 Stephen Bain 
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Andrew  wrote:
>> >
>> > I think some discussion would need to be entered as to which city would
>> be
>> > best. The city with our greatest number of volunteers - and certainly
>> the
>> > most accessible city from a national/international point of view - is
>> > Melbourne. I don't know what venues are available in that city, though.
>>
>> In some preliminary investigations a couple of years ago I checked out
>> the University of Melbourne (my university). It has a wide selection
>> of lecture theatres etc for hosting the sessions (most being wired for
>> audio recording already, and some for video), and between semesters
>> rooms in the colleges are available for rent at pretty reasonable
>> prices - this would suit a bulk order of accommodation. The campus is
>> also close to the city and other accommodation.
>>
>> --
>> Stephen Bain
>> stephen.b...@gmail.com
>>
>> ___
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>
>
>
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> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Gnangarra]

The BES people were actively canvassing us for the possabillity of a bid
from Sydney. Australia will only get one opportunity in the next 5
years(more likely 10) to host a Wikimania we need to maximise the opporunity
for locals to attend . I see nothing wrong with starting a sydney bid page
especially given that there is specific interest from the convention
industry and we are gathering much needed information/experience/knowledge
anyway. One thing that Canberra/GLAM-Wiki did show was that without outside
assistance(AWM, Dictionary of Sydney, WMF) we didnt have the resources to
host a small scale national event. Another experience which the committee
was also able to learn is that the WM-au committee can only do so much but
without a highly dedicated local organiser(or group) the outcome is going to
much different. From what I'm seeing we have Liam, Angela with BES support
working towards Sydney 2011/2012, there is no reason for them to stop
developing a bid from Sydney nor is there any barrier for another location
to also submit a bid. WM-au should be supportive of all bids even if there
is more than one Australian city bidding because which ever is successful
the members are the ones that will benefit, also because WM-au members arent
just from Sydney nor Melbourne but right across the country the committee
should be working to get the best possible outcomes for all members that
outcome is a Wikimania in Australia.

2009/11/26 Stephen Bain 

> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Andrew  wrote:
> >
> > I think some discussion would need to be entered as to which city would
> be
> > best. The city with our greatest number of volunteers - and certainly the
> > most accessible city from a national/international point of view - is
> > Melbourne. I don't know what venues are available in that city, though.
>
> In some preliminary investigations a couple of years ago I checked out
> the University of Melbourne (my university). It has a wide selection
> of lecture theatres etc for hosting the sessions (most being wired for
> audio recording already, and some for video), and between semesters
> rooms in the colleges are available for rent at pretty reasonable
> prices - this would suit a bulk order of accommodation. The campus is
> also close to the city and other accommodation.
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> stephen.b...@gmail.com
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Stephen Bain]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Andrew  wrote:
>
> I think some discussion would need to be entered as to which city would be
> best. The city with our greatest number of volunteers - and certainly the
> most accessible city from a national/international point of view - is
> Melbourne. I don't know what venues are available in that city, though.

In some preliminary investigations a couple of years ago I checked out
the University of Melbourne (my university). It has a wide selection
of lecture theatres etc for hosting the sessions (most being wired for
audio recording already, and some for video), and between semesters
rooms in the colleges are available for rent at pretty reasonable
prices - this would suit a bulk order of accommodation. The campus is
also close to the city and other accommodation.

-- 
Stephen Bain
stephen.b...@gmail.com

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Liam Wyatt]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Andrew  wrote:

> Just a note re the above:
>
>
> > The Chapter committee gave me permission/support to meet with and canvas
> ideas with BES on an in-principle basis.
>
> > Subsequently to the first meeting, I sought committee approval to bring
> Angela into the discussions too.
>
> > permission has been sought from the Chapter committee for this early
> discussion.
>
> I don't mean to be annoying here, but I think we need to be very careful
> about these kinds of statements.
>
> As an observer member of the committee, I can say with moderate certainty
> that the committee never resolved nor approved anything. There are no
> meeting minutes or resolutions covering it, and looking at the comm list
> emails, I would say a more correct statement was that the committee were
> notified of it, and that the committee did not oppose or object.
>
> regards
> Andrew
>

I was not trying to imply that the WM-Au committee formally supports a bid,
but that the committee was kept informed as to what I (and subsequently
Angela and I) were up to and that I asked permission each time. "Notified"
is indeed a good term for it. We never voted on it in meetings because there
was nothing formal to vote on. Rather, it was raised on the mailing list to
make sure that everyone on the committee was informed and to give a chance
for people to raise any concerns or provide advice. Since no one raised any
objections to this course of action you could call this tacit support. It
has always been clear that the Australian Wikimedian community at large
involved (and the committee would debate and vote) when we are at a stage of
actually deciding on a course of action. Until then, it remains a
fact-finding mission.
Does this clarify things?
-Liam


>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Andrew]

Just a note re the above:

> The Chapter committee gave me permission/support to meet with and canvas
ideas with BES on an in-principle basis.

> Subsequently to the first meeting, I sought committee approval to bring
Angela into the discussions too.

> permission has been sought from the Chapter committee for this early
discussion.

I don't mean to be annoying here, but I think we need to be very careful
about these kinds of statements.

As an observer member of the committee, I can say with moderate certainty
that the committee never resolved nor approved anything. There are no
meeting minutes or resolutions covering it, and looking at the comm list
emails, I would say a more correct statement was that the committee were
notified of it, and that the committee did not oppose or object.

regards
Andrew
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Liam Wyatt]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Angela  wrote:

> > Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?
>
> As far as I'm aware, the chapter board has not said anything yet. My
> hope is that making the first step of putting up a bid page will
> generate some discussion amongst both the committee and members of
> Wikimedia Australia and of the wider community in order to work out
> whether this is the right thing to do and whether 2012 is the right
> time.
>
> Hosting Wikimania in Australia been discussed for many years now, and
> for me 2012 seems the ideal time for a bid. We've recently had a
> successful GLAM-WIKI conference, proving there are enough people here
> to make such an event work. It leaves us with all of 2010 and 2011 to
> make preparations and to host other smaller events to help build up
> the team prior to Wikimania in 2012.
>
> This is just the very first stage, and deliberately started early
> (most 2011 bids aren't up yet) in order to allow a lot of discussion
> and decision making. There's lots of time before anything needs to be
> finalised for the chapter and its members to put forward their views
> and to decide whether or not to support this.
>
> Angela
>

Thank you Delphine and Angela for your replies.
Craig (and everyone else) perhaps I can give a bit of background and see if
I can answer some of these questions.

Angela and I have been in discussions with Business Events Sydney (BES - the
new name for the Sydney Conventions Bureau) for a couple of months now. They
approached the committee several months ago seeking a meeting to look at the
feasibility of such a bid for Sydney - having watched the previous bid for
Brisbane. BES do not charge commission or promote certain companies etc.,
they are a State government and tourism industry funded body to provide
bidding support and advice in order to increase tourism to NSW.

The Chapter committee gave me permission/support to meet with and canvas
ideas with BES on an in-principle basis. I met with their representative
(who has been extremely diligent in learning about past Wikimanias and their
requirements, our culture and communication methods) and gave an outline of
what a Wikimania in Sydney would require. Initially they were asking about
2011 and I pushed the discussion to 2012. As Delphine mentioned, the key
ingredient in a successful Wikimania is not a Chapter per-se but a strong
local team. Of course, as a Chapter person myself I wouldn't push for it if
the Chapter wasn't itself keen. As for the number of Wikimedians in Sydney,
what I have noted at the past three Wikimanias is the vast majority of the
local volunteers were not in fact Wikimedians but sourced from local
friendly organisations (such as local university students). Furthermore,
given the turnout of the last couple of meetups in Sydney have been a
majority of "fist time meetup attendees" I am convinced we haven't seen the
potential of Sydney's Wikimedia community yet.

Subsequently to the first meeting, I sought committee approval to bring
Angela into the discussions too. I've been to the last 3 Wikimanias but
Angela is one of only about a dozen who have been to every single one (Tim
is also in this group). The BES rep, Angela and myself have looked over
initial quotes from a series of venues and visited locations in Sydney to
look at and talk with the venue managers. I hasten to add that this has
always been and remains on an "investigative level" - no official decision
to bid has been made by the committee, the chapter as a whole or even Angela
and myself as the bid-leads. Furthermore the fact of our investigation into
this issue at such an early date is a big advantage as it gives us time to
scope the possibility (I'd like to mention that Wikimedia UK is currently
preparing a bid for Manchester
2013
!)

Next week the three of us will be meeting with the bid leader of the
Free/Open Source for Geospatial (FOSS4G )
conference to get an idea of the feasibility. This was a conference run last
month at the Sydney convention centre and the bid was supported by BES. They
are a similar size to Wikimania and also a similar type of organisation
(FOSS geeks, volunteers etc.) and have similar types of requirements and
sponsorship potential. This will give us an increased understanding of the
feasibility and potential pitfalls. Finally, BES staff will be traveling to
the USA in the next couple of months on a general study tour. As part of
this trip they've offered to drop by the WMF office in San Francisco to
speak with a staff rep there about Wikimania and to learn more about our
culture and what such an event would require.

So, all in all the takeaways are:
 - permission has been sought from the Chapter committee for this early
discussion.
 - no formal bid or decision to bid has been taken.
 - all investigations that have been made are ones that would need to be
made to make an 

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Andrew]

An afterthought: The above, of course, leaves out Canberra, Perth and
Adelaide, all of which have centres of Wikimedian activity and all of which
would be capable of hosting such an event in terms of venues. I remember a
few of us having some discussions with PCEC when there was some talk of a
Perth bid being mounted.

2009/11/26 Andrew 

> I wouldn't doubt that other places have managed to get off the ground
> without active chapter support, but the fact is that the Australian
> Wikimedian community is actually fairly small and the great majority of
> those (including the membership of any likely bid team) who would support
> such an event are involved in the chapter.
>
> We have around 45 financial members at present. From what I heard, huge
> numbers of local people were involved in getting Taipei off the ground - our
> distributed and relatively small population means we don't have that at our
> disposal here. Taiwan is 1/3 the area of Tasmania with a population greater
> than Australia's. Getting people in from other parts of Australia, as
> GLAM-WIKI proved, can be quite a challenge as we got I think 15-18
> Wikimedians along to that.
>
> I think some discussion would need to be entered as to which city would be
> best. The city with our greatest number of volunteers - and certainly the
> most accessible city from a national/international point of view - is
> Melbourne. I don't know what venues are available in that city, though.
> Sydney and Brisbane have both made enquiries from bid promoters and venues,
> and the Brisbane Wikimania bid was a strong one (and I believe its sponsors
> are still on side). If we're all focusing in different directions then
> people get territorial over cities, the Wikimedian group doesn't get united
> behind one bid and it will necessarily fail.
>
> All just my own opinion of course. I do agree with Delphine that in order
> to make an event successful, planning well in advance of time is essential -
> as they say if one fails to plan, one plans to fail.
>
> cheers
> Andrew
>
> 2009/11/26 Angela 
>
> > Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?
>>
>> As far as I'm aware, the chapter board has not said anything yet. My
>> hope is that making the first step of putting up a bid page will
>> generate some discussion amongst both the committee and members of
>> Wikimedia Australia and of the wider community in order to work out
>> whether this is the right thing to do and whether 2012 is the right
>> time.
>>
>> Hosting Wikimania in Australia been discussed for many years now, and
>> for me 2012 seems the ideal time for a bid. We've recently had a
>> successful GLAM-WIKI conference, proving there are enough people here
>> to make such an event work. It leaves us with all of 2010 and 2011 to
>> make preparations and to host other smaller events to help build up
>> the team prior to Wikimania in 2012.
>>
>> This is just the very first stage, and deliberately started early
>> (most 2011 bids aren't up yet) in order to allow a lot of discussion
>> and decision making. There's lots of time before anything needs to be
>> finalised for the chapter and its members to put forward their views
>> and to decide whether or not to support this.
>>
>> Angela
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Andrew]

I wouldn't doubt that other places have managed to get off the ground
without active chapter support, but the fact is that the Australian
Wikimedian community is actually fairly small and the great majority of
those (including the membership of any likely bid team) who would support
such an event are involved in the chapter.

We have around 45 financial members at present. From what I heard, huge
numbers of local people were involved in getting Taipei off the ground - our
distributed and relatively small population means we don't have that at our
disposal here. Taiwan is 1/3 the area of Tasmania with a population greater
than Australia's. Getting people in from other parts of Australia, as
GLAM-WIKI proved, can be quite a challenge as we got I think 15-18
Wikimedians along to that.

I think some discussion would need to be entered as to which city would be
best. The city with our greatest number of volunteers - and certainly the
most accessible city from a national/international point of view - is
Melbourne. I don't know what venues are available in that city, though.
Sydney and Brisbane have both made enquiries from bid promoters and venues,
and the Brisbane Wikimania bid was a strong one (and I believe its sponsors
are still on side). If we're all focusing in different directions then
people get territorial over cities, the Wikimedian group doesn't get united
behind one bid and it will necessarily fail.

All just my own opinion of course. I do agree with Delphine that in order to
make an event successful, planning well in advance of time is essential - as
they say if one fails to plan, one plans to fail.

cheers
Andrew

2009/11/26 Angela 

> > Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?
>
> As far as I'm aware, the chapter board has not said anything yet. My
> hope is that making the first step of putting up a bid page will
> generate some discussion amongst both the committee and members of
> Wikimedia Australia and of the wider community in order to work out
> whether this is the right thing to do and whether 2012 is the right
> time.
>
> Hosting Wikimania in Australia been discussed for many years now, and
> for me 2012 seems the ideal time for a bid. We've recently had a
> successful GLAM-WIKI conference, proving there are enough people here
> to make such an event work. It leaves us with all of 2010 and 2011 to
> make preparations and to host other smaller events to help build up
> the team prior to Wikimania in 2012.
>
> This is just the very first stage, and deliberately started early
> (most 2011 bids aren't up yet) in order to allow a lot of discussion
> and decision making. There's lots of time before anything needs to be
> finalised for the chapter and its members to put forward their views
> and to decide whether or not to support this.
>
> Angela
>
> ___
> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Angela]

> Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?

As far as I'm aware, the chapter board has not said anything yet. My
hope is that making the first step of putting up a bid page will
generate some discussion amongst both the committee and members of
Wikimedia Australia and of the wider community in order to work out
whether this is the right thing to do and whether 2012 is the right
time.

Hosting Wikimania in Australia been discussed for many years now, and
for me 2012 seems the ideal time for a bid. We've recently had a
successful GLAM-WIKI conference, proving there are enough people here
to make such an event work. It leaves us with all of 2010 and 2011 to
make preparations and to host other smaller events to help build up
the team prior to Wikimania in 2012.

This is just the very first stage, and deliberately started early
(most 2011 bids aren't up yet) in order to allow a lot of discussion
and decision making. There's lots of time before anything needs to be
finalised for the chapter and its members to put forward their views
and to decide whether or not to support this.

Angela

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Delphine Ménard]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:57, Craig Franklin  wrote:
> Angela,
>
> Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?  Having
> been the bid leader for the last time an Australian city took a tilt at
> this, I'd say that it's necessary to have committed support from the chapter
> to have any hope at all of success.  I see that supporting the bid is a part
> of Liam's election platform, but I really think it's not appropriate to
> count on the chapter's enthusiastic support for a Sydney '12 bid without
> some sort of chapter-wide discussion on whether that's the best location and
> the best time to bid.  I'm not saying that the idea of bidding is without
> merit, but I do think that this might not be the best time to proceed.  In
> fact, when the chapter membership was polled in March, there seemed to very
> little to no support for bidding in 2011
> (http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2009_member_goals_survey), and I'm not
> sure that opinions on the topic have changed wildly since then.


For what it's worth, chapter support for other bids (Gdansk, for
example), were not always acquired from the start. I do not see how
putting up a bid is in any way presumptuous of having the national
chapter's support, no more than I believe that chapter support is
absolutely necessary to lead a bid to success. What makes the success
of a bid is a dedicated organizing team, who can mobilize the right
resources (and those might include mobilizing the chapter's resources)
at the right time.

Wikimedia Germany never really supported the Frankfurt Wikimania more
than saying "ah cool", there was no chapter backing Wikimania in
Cambridge, the chapter was created in Taiwan just for Wikimania and
did not survive the event, Wikimania in Alexandria was backed up by no
chapter. Only Wikimania in Buenos Aires and Wikimedia Argentina had
really strong ties. Wikimedia Polska was one of many supporters of the
Gdansk bid, but as far as I am aware, not the organisation "carrying"
the bid to start with.

Finally, if Wikimania is _ever_ going to get to Australia, I think
that thinking about it 2 years in advance is the least that should be
done.


Cheers,

Delphine
(organizer of 3 Wikimanias out of 5).

-- 
~notafish

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will
get lost.
Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

[Craig Franklin]

Angela,

Have you got any official support from the chapter for this bid?  Having
been the bid leader for the last time an Australian city took a tilt at
this, I'd say that it's necessary to have committed support from the chapter
to have any hope at all of success.  I see that supporting the bid is a part
of Liam's election platform, but I really think it's not appropriate to
count on the chapter's enthusiastic support for a Sydney '12 bid without
some sort of chapter-wide discussion on whether that's the best location and
the best time to bid.  I'm not saying that the idea of bidding is without
merit, but I do think that this might not be the best time to proceed.  In
fact, when the chapter membership was polled in March, there seemed to very
little to no support for bidding in 2011
(http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2009_member_goals_survey), and I'm not
sure that opinions on the topic have changed wildly since then.

Cheers,
Craig

-Original Message-
From: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Angela
Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2009 4:29 PM
To: Wikimedia-au
Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] Bidding for Wikimania 2012

I think there's an advantage to putting up a bid page early so the
jury can see that we're organised so I've started
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2012/Bids/Sydney

Please add to it, and add your name if you can sign up to volunteer,
either for a particular role or just generally.

For inspiration, previous winning bids can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2005:Location
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Boston
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2007/Taipei
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Bids/Alexandria
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2009/Bids/Buenos_Aires
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2010/Bids/Gda%C5%84sk

2011 bids will be here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids

Angela

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