Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Viswanathan Prabhakaran]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

>
> If we are looking at any sort of unity, lets first pick out our own faults
> before pointing the finger at others.
>
> +1 Arun Ganesh
Anarchy just for the cause of anarchy and authoritarianism just for the
cause of
authoritarianism are both useless, degenerative and destructive.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Viswanathan Prabhakaran]

Dear all,

Taking some liberty to speak on behapf of the chapter, I can promise you
all that the Chapter's board, being newly restructured now, are working
very hard these days to turn around many of the the ways it has been
working through.

We are trying to become more accommodative, diverse, open, growth-oriented
and pro-active with an 'All Win, Win All' outlook.

In the course, there are quite a few hard and critical hurdles from many
angles, mostly legal and administrative.

May I now request all of you to give a helping hand and ideological support
to this crucial organization which can potentially stand up mightily as a
capable representation of all Indian Wikimedia volunteers and pride itself
among the best Wikimedia chapters of all world.

-Viswam


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:06 AM, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

>
>> > Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club
>> in my neighbourhood?
>>
>> To answer just this simple, technical question: no, there is no
>> restriction, and any group is welcome to seek recognition independently of
>> the chapter, and does not need its permission.
>>
>> See here:
>>
>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_user_group_creation_guide
>>
> Thanks Asaf, that was helpful.
>
>
> --
>  Arun Ganesh
> (planemad) 
>  
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi Sudhanwa,

I agree with your views. Excellently answered.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Sudhanwa Jogalekar]

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
> Hoi,
> Ok.. so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for
> viable projects. Do remember that the qualifiers for funding are essentially
> the same; they have to pass the requirements of the WMF. When the chapter
> has its own independent funding, it can allocate as it sees fit.

Chapters own individual fund raising is negligible. As such WMIN needs
to be dependent on WMF. From whatever the money chapter has and can
allocate to various projects, they are doing it properly.

> I seriously do not understand what drives you. I only notice negative
> attitudes, I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could operate.
> The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of the Indian
> chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy opportunities that
> become lost for now for India,

There are ample opportunities everywhere. But because of multiple
presence of (support) authority(?), community gets split and confused.
Compared to other countries where people go directly to the chapter
for support and may be to WMF (through GAC or other mechanisms) if
that does not work out. In India, we have A2K also in picture where
people from community can get all kind of support without much of
asking or justification. Compared to this, being handled by volunteers
and not paid staff, WMIN has many restrictions and delays etc. As
such, the functioning itself may be felt as a deterrent to the
volunteers. Over and above this, for the volunteers, WMF option is
always there to do some projects. In this situation, it becomes very
difficult for the chapter to keep up the good work, build/maintain
community confidence and at the same time keep WMF happy by answering
all kinds of questions and justifications for funds.(Not to forget all
the regulatory compliances). All this is causing serious confusion and
conflict in community mind and they do not take the required
initiative to take up things further.

Please also understand that we have multiple language communities here
that too across various states and Governments and they are culturally
different in thinking and functioning. You can safely say it is
comparable to managing various chapters across all the European
countries whereas we have just one chapter for all of them.

Personally, I feel (and many more also feel the same way) that the
root cause of the problem was/is WMF's direct presence (currently
through CIS-A2K). and their decisions without taking any inputs from
the community or even understanding how communities in India work.

Hopefully, the community consultation that is coming up next month
will possibly help ease out the situation. From the replies on the
talk page, it is very clear that WMF is not committing anything about
the implementations from the outcome of this consultation. But I am
hopeful just like many many others who seriously want the activities
to grow in India.

I hope I have answered your queries.

Regards
-Sudhanwa


[snip]


-- 

~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
web: www.sudhanwa.com  blog: www.sudhanwa.in
Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi Arun,

//Compared to the huge amount of subscribers this list has, the number of
participants has probably not exceeded 20 in the last one year//

Even for WMF's FDC proposal in Meta, only a handful of people participated.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form

Does that mean there is no one in the Wikimedia movement globally? :)

//This indicates that the discussions taking place here are really not
conducive for any sort of community participation.//

Mailing lists and Meta are places where community meets to discuss few
issues but the real work takes place outside these place. For a veteran
like you, I shouldn't be explaining these things.

Only less than 5% of very active contributors can grasp these
organizational issues and participating in these discussions are not their
priority.

//Lets continue to blame CIS, WMF, US dollars, fat salaries, vested
interests, experiments and everyone else for what is our collective failure
to set an example of how a community works. //

First of all, we haven't failed. Activity in most of the Indian Wikipedia
projects are business as usual or the problems they face are expected.

I have tried to explain the problems we face and the strategies we should
adopt at

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Opinions_2

Please feel free to discuss there.

Coming to the blaming part, I am not blaming anyone either. When we
introspect, we can only do a context based holistic analysis.

Let WMF and CIS try doing what they are doing in any mature community like
Wikimedia Germany and let us see how those communities respond :)

//If we are looking at any sort of unity, lets first pick out our own
faults before pointing the finger at others.//

Chapter's governance issues and community's unity need not be one and the
same.

I feel as a community we can still move forward if we discuss things in a
productive way instead of washing dirty linen in public.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi Pradeep,

Yes, the chapter needs to do a membership drive. It also needs to have a
membership policy to make sure that only people who genuinely work towards
the mission are enrolled. Mass enrolment without any criterion can be a
governance disaster later. However, these things are best addressed when we
actively take part in the chapter activities and push for these changes.
Criticizing from outside is not going to help. Let me know if any one here
has tried to do a membership drive and the chapter has discouraged it.

I understand your concern for the chapter representing the community. But,
we need to put things in context before criticizing the chapter.

Wikimedia Foundation is not a membership driven organization and only 3 out
of it's 10 members are directly elected by the community. Other two are
elected by the chapters.

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees

CIS is a membership organization and it chooses to have only 8 members who
elect 3 board members.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Clarification_about_CIS_Board_and_Rent

I have never seen anyone criticizing these agencies for lack of democracy
even though they have demonstrated shortcomings in working with the
community.

The latest example is the dissent voiced from German Wikipedia with
signatories from all over the world

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_Wikimedia_Foundation:_Superprotect_and_Media_Viewer

Last year, English Wikipedians revolted against Visual editor

http://www.dailydot.com/news/wikipedia-visualeditor-kww-patch/

Assuming concerns on the lines of democracy are over looked for these
agencies based on their performance, then we should also view chapter on
the same lines.

Setting aside leadership, governance and financial constraints, is the
chapter capable of attracting more volunteers?

Please note that editing in Wiki and volunteering for offline efforts like
outreach and chapter work are two different things.

Indian Wikipedias face acute shortage of next generation active editors.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/telugu-wikipedia-struggles-to-stay-afloat/article6255003.ece

Based on my experience, it will be great even if 1 among 10 very active
active editors (who make 100 edits a month) volunteer for these offline
efforts.

Most of the Indian language Wikipedians have their commitment towards the
language and bandwidth for organizational activities can only take a second
seat.

Not everyone can become a Wikipedian and not every Wikipedian can become an
effective chapter volunteer. These require different set of skills,
attitude and commitment.

Many potential volunteers have already contributed for the chapter and got
burnt out.

So, what the chapter is facing is a chicken and egg problem.

If WMF and CIS cannot make ground breaking changes with all their
expertise, resources and programs since 2011, I am amused why would anyone
hold chapter responsible for all problems.

Wikimedia India chapter is a budding organization and it will take time to
stabilize. What we are witnessing is expected behaviour only. But, most of
the recent mail threads sound very keen to do a postmortem for chapter
without any contribution towards it or any viable alternative outside of
it.

//I have been labelled an anarchist and as an often-quitter.//

I respect your personal commitments which stand in between Wikipedia
contributions but you can't be selectively anarchic :)

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Arun Ganesh]

>
>
> //I only notice negative attitudes//
>
> Yes, it is a problem for people who want a free run experimenting in India.
>
>
Compared to the huge amount of subscribers this list has, the number of
participants has probably not exceeded 20 in the last one year.

This indicates that the discussions taking place here are really not
conducive for any sort of community participation. Lets continue to blame
CIS, WMF, US dollars, fat salaries, vested interests, experiments and
everyone else for what is our collective failure to set an example of how a
community works.

If we are looking at any sort of unity, lets first pick out our own faults
before pointing the finger at others.

"Stand up, be bold, be strong. Take the whole responsibility on your own
shoulders, and know that you are the creator of your own destiny. All the
strength and succor you want is within yourselves. Therefore, make your own
future." - *Swami Vivekananda*

-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi,

I think the Chapter should consider why it's membership base is so low. I would 
suggest that the Chapter undertake a membership drive after the elections and 
use the same to understand why the Community members are not becoming members 
of the Chapter. I believe this would be an instructive exercise for the Chapter.

I have remained member of the Chapter for these many years believing that the 
Chapter represented the Community. In the last few weeks many community members 
I knew are not members of the Chapter. I also learnt that the number of people 
eligible to vote in this election stands at 30 members and that the whole 
membership list has about 130 members. The other 100 members are ineligible to 
vote since they joined in April or so. Many members also failed to renew their 
memberships. 

I have resigned from membership of the Chapter and will only join again when 
*I* believe that the Chapter is representative of the Community.

I have been labelled an anarchist and as an often-quitter. I think the 
Wikimedia movement is anarchistic in its very nature. I am an often-quitter 
too. So, I do not deny these charges. I say what I think I have to say. You all 
have the choice of choosing to listen to it or not. I do not take that freedom 
away from you and I thank you for the freedom you grant an anarchist and an 
often-quitter.

Warm regards,
Pradeep Mohandas

Sent from my iPhone

> On 09-Sep-2014, at 15:12, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> Ok.. so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for 
> viable projects. Do remember that the qualifiers for funding are essentially 
> the same; they have to pass the requirements of the WMF. When the chapter has 
> its own independent funding, it can allocate as it sees fit.
> 
> I seriously do not understand what drives you. I only notice negative 
> attitudes, I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could operate. 
> The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of the Indian 
> chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy opportunities that 
> become lost for now for India,
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
>> On 8 September 2014 15:22, Ravishankar  wrote:
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> * Chapter, user groups and online wikimedia project communities need not be 
>> mutually exclusive.
>> 
>> * A user group need not be created just for the sake of it without clear 
>> idea of the problem that it intends to solve and which cannot be solved by 
>> other already available means.
>> 
>> For example, forming a Tamil Wikimedia user group in SriLanka will make 
>> sense as we have legal and financial restrictions of spending India 
>> chapter's money in other countries. But, there is no need felt to start a 
>> Tamil Wikimedia user group in Tamilnadu.
>> 
>> Will a global Tamil user group like 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio help?
>> 
>> May be. But, it isn't a pressing need. Whenever we come up with a project or 
>> grant request, it is well supported already by WMF and Wikimedia India. 
>> 
>> Please also note that for a country like India, a registered and legal 
>> entity like chapter is very essential. Because, without a letter pad and 
>> official seal, we can't enter many places. And without such entities, we 
>> can't conduct mega projects with big budgets (Individuals who receive money 
>> on behalf of communities or user groups will face tax audit issues. And the 
>> process needs to be repeatedly done every time by a new individual)
>> 
>> * A user group will help when they operate across multiple projects and 
>> regions. For example, GLAM volunteers and Mediawiki hackers. But, I see this 
>> as a convenience as to organize the volunteers themselves formally than as a 
>> requirement to operate outside other entities like chapter, especially when 
>> they are willing to support them. 
>> 
>> * Please note that many of the current and waiting to be approved user 
>> groups are just incubators for future chapters. We will be going backwards 
>> if we dissolve the chapter and split into user groups.
>> 
>> * Yes, Wikimedia India chapter could have fared better. But, I wouldn't 
>> blame it or any single person or EC. Like any Wikimedia project, it can only 
>> become better with more participation, collaboration and emergence of 
>> natural leadership. For a complex country like India, it will take time. 7 
>> members of EC are not super humans and they are not supposed to do all the 
>> work by themselves. Any such expectation set by themselves or from the 
>> members should be reconsidered. In my personal experience interacting with 
>> the chapter, they have always supported us in all ways possible. Only if the 
>> chapter stands in the way of any aspiring member / community's plan, it 
>> should be highlighted and discussed. 
>> 
>> * The chapter is already as democratic as it could be by design. In fact, 
>> most of it's problems stem from that and not because of lack of democracy

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Gerard,

//so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for
viable projects.//

The problem is very simple. Chapter can fund only if it has the money.

Last year's chapter's total  budget was around 18 lakh INR and the amount
of microgrants they can give for communities will be obviously limited. If
someone or a community comes up with a request of few lakh INR and that too
within a short period of time, they cannot support even if it follows all
regulations of WMF.

For Tamil Wikipedia, chapter has always supported whenever we asked support
within reasonable limits it can support. Towards 10th year celebrations of
Tamil Wikipedia, they did give 22,160 INR we requested.

India has Wikimedia projects in 20 languages. Many of these languages have
many projects like Wiktionary, Wikisource. So, they also need to give a
reasonable share for all these projects instead of spending all in few
communities.

Any criticism should consider this aspect.

//I seriously do not understand what drives you.//

Ditto. I wonder if you have an email filter triggering attention everytime
CIS is mentioned ;)

//I only notice negative attitudes//

Yes, it is a problem for people who want a free run experimenting in India.

// I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could operate.//

I have shared my vision for future of Wikimedia India at

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Opinions_2

Please feel free to discuss there.

//The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of the
Indian chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy
opportunities that become lost for now for India,//

If you follow the spirit of the movement, let me challenge you to urge WMF
to come up with an worldwide community discussion on supporting
non-community agencies like CIS in competition with local chapters and then
implement it for all countries.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Ok.. so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for
viable projects. Do remember that the qualifiers for funding are
essentially the same; they have to pass the requirements of the WMF. When
the chapter has its own independent funding, it can allocate as it sees fit.

I seriously do not understand what drives you. I only notice negative
attitudes, I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could
operate. The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of
the Indian chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy
opportunities that become lost for now for India,
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 8 September 2014 15:22, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> * Chapter, user groups and online wikimedia project communities need not
> be mutually exclusive.
>
> * A user group need not be created just for the sake of it without clear
> idea of the problem that it intends to solve and which cannot be solved by
> other already available means.
>
> For example, forming a Tamil Wikimedia user group in SriLanka will make
> sense as we have legal and financial restrictions of spending India
> chapter's money in other countries. But, there is no need felt to start a
> Tamil Wikimedia user group in Tamilnadu.
>
> Will a global Tamil user group like
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio help?
>
> May be. But, it isn't a pressing need. Whenever we come up with a project
> or grant request, it is well supported already by WMF and Wikimedia India.
>
> Please also note that for a country like India, a registered and legal
> entity like chapter is very essential. Because, without a letter pad and
> official seal, we can't enter many places. And without such entities, we
> can't conduct mega projects with big budgets (Individuals who receive money
> on behalf of communities or user groups will face tax audit issues. And the
> process needs to be repeatedly done every time by a new individual)
>
> * A user group will help when they operate across multiple projects and
> regions. For example, GLAM volunteers and Mediawiki hackers. But, I see
> this as a convenience as to organize the volunteers themselves formally
> than as a requirement to operate outside other entities like chapter,
> especially when they are willing to support them.
>
> * Please note that many of the current and waiting to be approved user
> groups are just incubators for future chapters. We will be going backwards
> if we dissolve the chapter and split into user groups.
>
> * Yes, Wikimedia India chapter could have fared better. But, I wouldn't
> blame it or any single person or EC. Like any Wikimedia project, it can
> only become better with more participation, collaboration and emergence of
> natural leadership. For a complex country like India, it will take time. 7
> members of EC are not super humans and they are not supposed to do all the
> work by themselves. Any such expectation set by themselves or from the
> members should be reconsidered. In my personal experience interacting with
> the chapter, they have always supported us in all ways possible. Only if
> the chapter stands in the way of any aspiring member / community's plan, it
> should be highlighted and discussed.
>
> * The chapter is already as democratic as it could be by design. In fact,
> most of it's problems stem from that and not because of lack of democracy.
> Other players in the movement like WMF or their working partners like CIS
> don't have this issue while chapters have to face this issue. So, it is
> unfair to judge chapter's performance without considering this crucial
> aspect.
>
> * Whatever be the structural setup we might agree, it is not going to
> solve all issues. We need to think with it and also outside the box.
>
> * I am surprised that no one highlighted the impact of non-community
> organizations like CIS in the movement.
>
> Once, I asked an active Indian Wikimedian who initiated many chapter
> events and then started collaborating with CIS, why he made this transition.
>
> His answer:
>
> "Chapter doesn't give us money. CIS gives money".
>
> And there you see, how in the name of language community strategy of WMF
> through CIS has bifurcated the community.
>
> This, in my view, is a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
>
> Ravi
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Jayanta Nath]

+Viswapraba, if we works under one umbrella instead of creating
 thousand "user group", we can flourish better way!  Although WMI chapter &
users group , both are necessary !  But I can say that users group may be
die after inactive of main initiator  , WMI chapter will not.

Regards,
Jayanta Nath
President
Wikimedia India Chapter


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

>
>> > Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club
>> in my neighbourhood?
>>
>> To answer just this simple, technical question: no, there is no
>> restriction, and any group is welcome to seek recognition independently of
>> the chapter, and does not need its permission.
>>
>> See here:
>>
>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_user_group_creation_guide
>>
> Thanks Asaf, that was helpful.
>
>
> --
>  Arun Ganesh
> (planemad) 
>  
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Arun Ganesh]

>
>
> > Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club
> in my neighbourhood?
>
> To answer just this simple, technical question: no, there is no
> restriction, and any group is welcome to seek recognition independently of
> the chapter, and does not need its permission.
>
> See here:
>
> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_user_group_creation_guide
>
Thanks Asaf, that was helpful.


-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi,

* Chapter, user groups and online wikimedia project communities need not be
mutually exclusive.

* A user group need not be created just for the sake of it without clear
idea of the problem that it intends to solve and which cannot be solved by
other already available means.

For example, forming a Tamil Wikimedia user group in SriLanka will make
sense as we have legal and financial restrictions of spending India
chapter's money in other countries. But, there is no need felt to start a
Tamil Wikimedia user group in Tamilnadu.

Will a global Tamil user group like
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio help?

May be. But, it isn't a pressing need. Whenever we come up with a project
or grant request, it is well supported already by WMF and Wikimedia India.

Please also note that for a country like India, a registered and legal
entity like chapter is very essential. Because, without a letter pad and
official seal, we can't enter many places. And without such entities, we
can't conduct mega projects with big budgets (Individuals who receive money
on behalf of communities or user groups will face tax audit issues. And the
process needs to be repeatedly done every time by a new individual)

* A user group will help when they operate across multiple projects and
regions. For example, GLAM volunteers and Mediawiki hackers. But, I see
this as a convenience as to organize the volunteers themselves formally
than as a requirement to operate outside other entities like chapter,
especially when they are willing to support them.

* Please note that many of the current and waiting to be approved user
groups are just incubators for future chapters. We will be going backwards
if we dissolve the chapter and split into user groups.

* Yes, Wikimedia India chapter could have fared better. But, I wouldn't
blame it or any single person or EC. Like any Wikimedia project, it can
only become better with more participation, collaboration and emergence of
natural leadership. For a complex country like India, it will take time. 7
members of EC are not super humans and they are not supposed to do all the
work by themselves. Any such expectation set by themselves or from the
members should be reconsidered. In my personal experience interacting with
the chapter, they have always supported us in all ways possible. Only if
the chapter stands in the way of any aspiring member / community's plan, it
should be highlighted and discussed.

* The chapter is already as democratic as it could be by design. In fact,
most of it's problems stem from that and not because of lack of democracy.
Other players in the movement like WMF or their working partners like CIS
don't have this issue while chapters have to face this issue. So, it is
unfair to judge chapter's performance without considering this crucial
aspect.

* Whatever be the structural setup we might agree, it is not going to solve
all issues. We need to think with it and also outside the box.

* I am surprised that no one highlighted the impact of non-community
organizations like CIS in the movement.

Once, I asked an active Indian Wikimedian who initiated many chapter events
and then started collaborating with CIS, why he made this transition.

His answer:

"Chapter doesn't give us money. CIS gives money".

And there you see, how in the name of language community strategy of WMF
through CIS has bifurcated the community.

This, in my view, is a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Asaf Bartov]

On Sep 6, 2014 8:03 AM, "Arun Ganesh"  wrote:
>
>
> About a year ago there was some interest in creating a Mediawiki India
group but met with opposition from the chapter.
>
> Is there currently a restriction on creating user groups independent of
the chapter? It would be good to know what this is?
> Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club
in my neighbourhood?

To answer just this simple, technical question: no, there is no
restriction, and any group is welcome to seek recognition independently of
the chapter, and does not need its permission.

See here:

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_user_group_creation_guide

As Pradeep notes, the Affiliations Committee will invite comment from the
chapter as a courtesy, but it is ultimately strictly up to AffCom to decide.

It is also true that historically, the chapter EC has strongly(!) opposed
the recognition of any other group in India, and swayed AffCom into
referring the applicants to be a SIG within the chapter instead of
proceeding with user group recognition.  Disappointingly, this never
happened.

Happily, we now hear a different tune from the EC, so I'm confident it
won't stand in the way of any prospective user groups.

I agree it's perfectly possible to have regional or language focuses in
groups within the chapter; we haven't seen it happen so far, but it's
certainly one possibility.

Ultimately it's about identity and decision making, and it's up to each
group to determine whether they're comfortable with their decisions or
activities being subject to the chapter EC or not, or whether they're
interested in operating under the national-level identity of Wikimedia
India. (Remember some Indian languages have significant speaker bases
outside India.)

Let me clearly state that the Foundation is agnostic about these questions,
and is simply interested in supporting all communities in the forms most
effective in their context.

   A.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Vikram Vincent]

Hi,
Doing a bit more analysis on your suggestion.

On 7 September 2014 13:15, Pradeep Mohandas 
wrote:

>
> The activity of the Chapter and the User Groups should flow to forward the
> movement.
>

It does not appear that way. Your suggestion seems to point to a more
anarchist approach which has failed in the Indian context.

Chapter is not democratically elected by the Community. It is a subset of
> the Community, recognised by WMF. There is a large Community member pool
> who are not Chapter members, whose membership stands between 130-150 people
> at last count. The Chapter has to consider why this continues to be the
> case after 4 years of its existence.
>

There are people who want to be a part of the chapter and there are people
who want to stay away.  The chapter was created to be inclusive and not
exclusive as you are constantly trying to portray. For example, I am not a
part of the chapter simply because I find it difficult to transfer the
membership amount and form but I still consider the chapter to speak for
me.  The current Govt at the Centre was not elected by a majority ie
greater than fifty percent. Rather it got the largest number of votes and
hence formed the govt.  Trying to say that it was not democratically
elected would be a fallacy and one that I keep seeing in all your emails.


> User Groups are a group of people who also similarly get affiliation from
> WMF and hence has a standing equivalent to the Indian Chapter in India.
> Here - http://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_user_groups
>

Quoting from the above link "User groups may or may not be legally
incorporated entities" which means that they can die at any moment the main
person who started it decides to do something else. Also, from the same
above link, there is nothing which says that they are democratic and
nothing which says that it is competing with the chapter. In fact it seems
that user groups can be formed in places where there are no chapter
activities.

My original email is only for Wikimedians in India to not consider the
> Chapter as an eternal entity based on a mandate given to it in 2010.
>

hmm seems very anarchistic but such an approach has failed before and will
fail again.  For examples please look at all the FOSS groups in India that
are now dead.

SIGs can be formed only by members of the Chapter and not outside it. Till
> Vishwa's email today, the Chapter has been unwilling to support creation of
> User Groups stating that SIGs can perform the same role. My clarification
> in this case is only that this forces a Wikimedian to become a Chapter
> member.
>

So now that you have a clarification in the positive direction on user
groups I hope all of you will start working :)
Regards
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi,

The activity of the Chapter and the User Groups should flow to forward the 
movement. 

Chapter is not democratically elected by the Community. It is a subset of the 
Community, recognised by WMF. There is a large Community member pool who are 
not Chapter members, whose membership stands between 130-150 people at last 
count. The Chapter has to consider why this continues to be the case after 4 
years of its existence.

User Groups are a group of people who also similarly get affiliation from WMF 
and hence has a standing equivalent to the Indian Chapter in India. Here - 
http://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_user_groups

SIGs can be formed only by members of the Chapter and not outside it. Till 
Vishwa's email today, the Chapter has been unwilling to support creation of 
User Groups stating that SIGs can perform the same role. My clarification in 
this case is only that this forces a Wikimedian to become a Chapter member. 

My original email is only for Wikimedians in India to not consider the Chapter 
as an eternal entity based on a mandate given to it in 2010.

Warm regards.
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 07-Sep-2014, at 12:49, "Dhaval S. Vyas"  wrote:
> 
> +1
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2014 07:53, "Vikram Vincent"  wrote:
>> HI,
>> 
>>> On 7 September 2014 11:38, Pradeep Mohandas  
>>> wrote:
>>> I meant that the SIG system is similar to the User Group system. In the SIG 
>>> affiliation is to the Chapter and in the User Group, the affiliation  is to 
>>> WMF directly. 
>>> 
>>> The need for direct affiliation is felt because the Chapter does not seem 
>>> to be democratic (as you call it). Otherwise, the SIG would be a useful 
>>> model to have.
>> 
>> Whether you acknowledge it or not, the Chapter is the democratically elected 
>> body {by, of, for} the community and as long as it has such a structure 
>> there is always scope to improve.  The SIG will function well as long as it 
>> works from within the chapter instead of trying to bypass the chapter.  User 
>> groups and SIG are not the same as they have different functions.  User 
>> groups are generic and can accommodate everybody whereas Special Interest 
>> Groups have special interests as the name says. So the user group and SIG 
>> activities should flow into the Chapter activities rather than try to 
>> divorce each from the other.  This democratic structure and functioning has 
>> worked well for FSMK, FSFTN, Swecha, FSMM and other bodies affiliated to 
>> FSMI.
>> Regards
>> Vikram
>> 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

+1
On 7 Sep 2014 07:53, "Vikram Vincent"  wrote:

> HI,
>
> On 7 September 2014 11:38, Pradeep Mohandas 
> wrote:
>
>> I meant that the SIG system is similar to the User Group system. In the
>> SIG affiliation is to the Chapter and in the User Group, the affiliation
>>  is to WMF directly.
>>
>> The need for direct affiliation is felt because the Chapter does not seem
>> to be democratic (as you call it). Otherwise, the SIG would be a useful
>> model to have.
>>
>
> Whether you acknowledge it or not, the Chapter is the democratically
> elected body {by, of, for} the community and as long as it has such a
> structure there is always scope to improve.  The SIG will function well as
> long as it works from within the chapter instead of trying to bypass the
> chapter.  User groups and SIG are not the same as they have different
> functions.  User groups are generic and can accommodate everybody whereas
> Special Interest Groups have special interests as the name says. So the
> user group and SIG activities should flow into the Chapter activities
> rather than try to divorce each from the other.  This democratic structure
> and functioning has worked well for FSMK, FSFTN, Swecha, FSMM and other
> bodies affiliated to FSMI.
> Regards
> Vikram
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Vikram Vincent]

HI,

On 7 September 2014 11:38, Pradeep Mohandas 
wrote:

> I meant that the SIG system is similar to the User Group system. In the
> SIG affiliation is to the Chapter and in the User Group, the affiliation
>  is to WMF directly.
>
> The need for direct affiliation is felt because the Chapter does not seem
> to be democratic (as you call it). Otherwise, the SIG would be a useful
> model to have.
>

Whether you acknowledge it or not, the Chapter is the democratically
elected body {by, of, for} the community and as long as it has such a
structure there is always scope to improve.  The SIG will function well as
long as it works from within the chapter instead of trying to bypass the
chapter.  User groups and SIG are not the same as they have different
functions.  User groups are generic and can accommodate everybody whereas
Special Interest Groups have special interests as the name says. So the
user group and SIG activities should flow into the Chapter activities
rather than try to divorce each from the other.  This democratic structure
and functioning has worked well for FSMK, FSFTN, Swecha, FSMM and other
bodies affiliated to FSMI.
Regards
Vikram
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi Vikram,

I meant that the SIG system is similar to the User Group system. In the SIG 
affiliation is to the Chapter and in the User Group, the affiliation  is to WMF 
directly. 

The need for direct affiliation is felt because the Chapter does not seem to be 
democratic (as you call it). Otherwise, the SIG would be a useful model to have.

Sorry that this took so many emails to explain.

Warm regards,
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 07-Sep-2014, at 10:30, Vikram Vincent  wrote:
> 
> The "SIG" reply still seems to have no connection to your original mail and 
> my reply.
> 
>> On 7 September 2014 09:42, Pradeep Mohandas  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Oh!
>> 
>> Re: " The user groups can affiliate themselves with the chapter, which is 
>> the official body of Wikimedia India, if they want to."
>> 
>>> On 07-Sep-2014, at 8:32, Vikram Vincent  wrote:
 On 7 September 2014 07:29, Pradeep Mohandas  
 wrote:
 There is already a provision for this in the Chapter. It is called Special 
 Interest Groups (SIG). Only suffers from the lack of an imaginative name, 
 but it is effectively what you are trying to suggest here.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea what question/comment the above reply is supposed to answer
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Vikram Vincent]

The "SIG" reply still seems to have no connection to your original mail and
my reply.

On 7 September 2014 09:42, Pradeep Mohandas 
wrote:

>
> Oh!
>
> Re: " The user groups can affiliate themselves with the chapter, which is
> the official body of Wikimedia India, if they want to."
>
> On 07-Sep-2014, at 8:32, Vikram Vincent  wrote:
>
> On 7 September 2014 07:29, Pradeep Mohandas 
> wrote:
>
>> There is already a provision for this in the Chapter. It is called
>> Special Interest Groups (SIG). Only suffers from the lack of an imaginative
>> name, but it is effectively what you are trying to suggest here.
>>
>
> I have no idea what question/comment the above reply is supposed to answer
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Oh!

Re: " The user groups can affiliate themselves with the chapter, which is the 
official body of Wikimedia India, if they want to."

Warm regards,
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 07-Sep-2014, at 8:32, Vikram Vincent  wrote:
> 
>> On 7 September 2014 07:29, Pradeep Mohandas  
>> wrote:
>> There is already a provision for this in the Chapter. It is called Special 
>> Interest Groups (SIG). Only suffers from the lack of an imaginative name, 
>> but it is effectively what you are trying to suggest here.
> 
> I have no idea what question/comment the above reply is supposed to answer.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Vikram Vincent]

On 7 September 2014 07:29, Pradeep Mohandas 
wrote:

> There is already a provision for this in the Chapter. It is called Special
> Interest Groups (SIG). Only suffers from the lack of an imaginative name,
> but it is effectively what you are trying to suggest here.
>

I have no idea what question/comment the above reply is supposed to answer.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Arun,

The Chapter is a legally recognised affiliate of the Chapter. WMF User Groups 
are also defined to be something like affiliates designed to share similar 
arrangements to what the Chapter has. As a gesture, the Affiliations Committee 
does consult the Chapter as the official affiliate in the locale.

At the time, I believe the argument was that the Community would be better 
served by one dedicated organisation. The Chapter had a similar entity since 
2010 called the Special Interest Group to work in a similar way but with the 
affiliations committee work being done by the Chapter. 

Vishwa's email seems to suggest the Chapter Exec Comm are now more open to the 
possibility of having WMF User Groups.

Warm regards,
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 06-Sep-2014, at 20:33, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Pradeep Mohandas 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups 
>> model in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter.
> 
> About a year ago there was some interest in creating a Mediawiki India group 
> but met with opposition from the chapter.
> 
> Is there currently a restriction on creating user groups independent of the 
> chapter? It would be good to know what this is?
> Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club in my 
> neighbourhood?
>  
>  
>> I do not think that the Chapter in its current form is representative of the 
>> Wikimedia Community in India. I have asked the Chapter to hold membership 
>> drives in other language wikis and other regions but this does not seem to 
>> have taken off. It has been 4 years since the Chapter was formed.
>> 
>> The downside would be that several groups will have to interact with state 
>> governments in their respective states but I think this will make them 
>> understand and respect the Executive Committee's work more.
>> 
>> I think this is worth considering in the present scenario.
>> 
>> Warm regards,
>> Pradeep Mohandas
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arun Ganesh
> (planemad)
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Dear Vishwa,

I think the Chapter EC should analyse (internally, at the very least) why this 
has not happened in 4 years of the Chapter's existence in India. See membership 
numbers from the various communities and see if the data the Chapter has 
reflects confidence in the Chapter. 

My argument is not to get rid of the Chapter, only to place it in suspended  
animation till the need for a Chapter to exist is felt by the User Groups (as 
defined by WMF, not the SIGs of the Chapter). This is the bottom up approach 
encouraged by Wikipedia. 

As Ravi suggests, this is perhaps something worth considering during the 
consultation.

Warm regards,
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 07-Sep-2014, at 2:27, ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ)  
> wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Having intensively spent more than two years within the chapter and many more 
> years within one of the better performing communities, I would like to input 
> a few points:
> 
> 1. Despite its being a single large political entity, India is a diverse 
> heterogeneous  amalgam of umpteen cultures, thought schools, social habits 
> and community pride.
> 
> 2. The one statement above is the prime point to be considered when any sort 
> of plans and road maps are drawn for missions like Wikimedia projects. It is 
> very very important that everyone, both within India and outside, realize 
> this.
> 
> 3. Due to this, any plans should have two such perspectives:
>  (1) an overall national outlook that will take care of legal and other 
> governance or assistance that is collectively beneficial to the entire 
> country; and 
>  (2) a view that ensures and focus on each community with due considerations 
> onto its own Strengths, Weaknesses,  Opportunities and Threats.
> 
> 4. A strong chapter (with a large number of members and strong representation 
> of the actual Wikimedia community volunteers) is a definite instrument that 
> can take care of the first goal.
> 
> The chapter can be strong only if it proves its value, worthiness, openness 
> and long term sustainability. The community should feel that the chapter is 
> not an authority over them, but only an assisting agency that is bound by the 
> might of the community at large and that does not cross its preset limits 
> towards the almost anarchic freedom the community enjoys.
> 
> 5. However, own experience so far yields to me that despite the hard work 
> committed by many souls, the chapter has difficulty in (1) growing itself up 
> and (2) reaching out to the communities. Both these objectives are mutually 
> dependent and anything that can help either, will eventually help and 
> complement the other. In addition, every community member should be able to 
> develop trust and confidence in the chapter. This too, is an added outcome of 
> a large (populous) democracy.
> 
> 6. Many user groups (each within a community of a particular language, theme, 
> interest, geography or occupation) is a very potential but missing link. 
> 
> User groups can exist and flourish in numbers and individual strength,  at a 
> layer that is just midway between the Chapter and Communities. [Chapters have 
> high legal and administrative bindings, procedural obligations etc. but they 
> also enjoy representative authority, financial and logistic resources and 
> structured organizational and professional  efficiency; On the other hand, 
> communities are, as always, wild, uncontrollable, unpredictable and 
> untameable, yet  innovative and 'working' on their own. They are the real 
> juice of the mission, with no doubt ever.]
> 
> 7. So, in brief, according to the lessons as I have learnt so far,
> 
> In India, we must have ONE very strong, populous, democratically just, 
> self-sustained chapter and many User Groups supported and built by individual 
> communities from the bottom side as well as by the Chapter and / or WMF and 
> other entities from the topside.
> 
> 8. The Chapter can find its own active, efficient and inevitable role, acting 
> as a national umbrella organization, coordinating and interconnecting the 
> User Groups, communities and discrete community members, in addition to 
> acting as a gateway between them and the higher ups (say WMF, Government and 
> other institutions).
> 
> 9. What if there is no chapter?
> 
> The Chapter is needed. Without an umbrella organizations, different 
> communities may have different rates of growth. While one community may be 
> vibrant, self-sustaining and growing wonderfully, another feeble one may be 
> left unattended and die all by itself. The chapter can see to it that every 
> baby gets its milk, to the fill of the bottle it deserves.
> 
> The chapter is also the most efficient way to work on tasks of a national 
> scale. As a significant institution, it may be able to influence the factors 
> that decide the fate of knowledge empowerment and emanicipation in future 
> India.
> 
> 10. Should we desist from forming User Groups?
> 
> No! The user groups can be m

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi Vikram,

There is already a provision for this in the Chapter. It is called Special 
Interest Groups (SIG). Only suffers from the lack of an imaginative name, but 
it is effectively what you are trying to suggest here.

Warm regards,
Pradeep

Sent from my iPhone

> On 07-Sep-2014, at 0:25, Vikram Vincent  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On 3 September 2014 09:38, Pradeep Mohandas  
>> wrote:
>> It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups 
>> model in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter.
> 
> Having user groups which function democratically also ensures that the 
> chapter functions well. I don't think we need to discuss replacing the 
> chapter cause that would be a retrograde move. The user groups can affiliate 
> themselves with the chapter, which is the official body of Wikimedia India, 
> if they want to.
> Regards
> Vikram
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[വിശ്വപ്രഭ]

Dear all,

Having intensively spent more than two years within the chapter and many
more years within one of the better performing communities, I would like to
input a few points:

1. *Despite its being a single large political entity, India is a diverse
heterogeneous  amalgam of umpteen cultures, thought schools, social habits
and community pride.*

2. The one statement above is the prime point to be considered when any
sort of plans and road maps are drawn for missions like Wikimedia projects. *It
is very very important that everyone, both within India and outside,
realize this.*

3. Due to this, any plans should have two such perspectives:
 (1) an overall national outlook that will take care of legal and other
governance or assistance that is collectively beneficial to the entire
country; and
 (2) a view that ensures and focus on each community with due
considerations onto its own Strengths, Weaknesses,  Opportunities and
Threats.

4. A strong chapter (with a large number of members and strong
representation of the actual Wikimedia community volunteers) is a definite
instrument that can take care of the first goal.

The chapter can be strong only if it proves its value, worthiness, openness
and long term sustainability. The community should feel that the chapter is
not an authority over them, but only an assisting agency that is bound by
the might of the community at large and that does not cross its preset
limits towards the almost anarchic freedom the community enjoys.

5. However, own experience so far yields to me that despite the hard work
committed by many souls, the chapter has difficulty in (1) growing itself
up and (2) reaching out to the communities. Both these objectives are
mutually dependent and anything that can help either, will eventually help
and complement the other. In addition, every community member should be
able to develop trust and confidence in the chapter. This too, is an added
outcome of a large (populous) democracy.

6. Many user groups (each within a community of a particular language,
theme, interest, geography or occupation) is a very potential but missing
link.

User groups can exist and flourish in numbers and individual strength,  at
a layer that is just midway between the Chapter and Communities. [Chapters
have high legal and administrative bindings, procedural obligations etc.
but they also enjoy representative authority, financial and logistic
resources and structured organizational and professional  efficiency; On
the other hand, communities are, as always, wild, uncontrollable,
unpredictable and untameable, yet  innovative and 'working' on their own.
They are the real juice of the mission, with no doubt ever.]

7. So, in brief, according to the lessons as I have learnt so far,

In India, we must have ONE very strong, populous, democratically just,
self-sustained chapter and many User Groups supported and built by
individual communities from the bottom side as well as by the Chapter and /
or WMF and other entities from the topside.

8. The Chapter can find its own active, efficient and inevitable role,
acting as a national umbrella organization, coordinating and
interconnecting the User Groups, communities and discrete community
members, in addition to acting as a gateway between them and the higher ups
(say WMF, Government and other institutions).

9. What if there is no chapter?

The Chapter is needed. Without an umbrella organizations, different
communities may have different rates of growth. While one community may be
vibrant, self-sustaining and growing wonderfully, another feeble one may be
left unattended and die all by itself. The chapter can see to it that every
baby gets its milk, to the fill of the bottle it deserves.

The chapter is also the most efficient way to work on tasks of a national
scale. As a significant institution, it may be able to influence the
factors that decide the fate of knowledge empowerment and emanicipation in
future India.

10. Should we desist from forming User Groups?

No! The user groups can be much more fun, efficient, communicative and
motivating to the communities. The user groups must be promoted in every
way that is possible, but still with very careful and tactical, but
minimal  controls ensuring basic compliance for purposes of financial
freedom and other benefits. However, their numbers may be limited into
convenient degrees to ensure good balance between mutual freedom and
quantitative sustenance.

Thank you.

*Viswanathan Prabhakaran*
Independent user from Malayalam Wikimedia Community,
Also,
Treasurer,
Wikimedia India Chapter



On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 12:25 AM, Vikram Vincent 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 3 September 2014 09:38, Pradeep Mohandas 
> wrote:
>
>> It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups
>> model in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>
>
> Having user groups which function democratically also ensures that the
> chapter functions well. I don't think we nee

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Vikram Vincent]

Hi,

On 3 September 2014 09:38, Pradeep Mohandas 
wrote:

> It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups
> model in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter.
>

Having user groups which function democratically also ensures that the
chapter functions well. I don't think we need to discuss replacing the
chapter cause that would be a retrograde move. The user groups can
affiliate themselves with the chapter, which is the official body of
Wikimedia India, if they want to.
Regards
Vikram
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Pradeep,

Let us brainstorm ideas like these at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Agenda

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Arun Ganesh]

On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Pradeep Mohandas  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups
> model in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter.
>

About a year ago there was some interest in creating a Mediawiki India
group but met with opposition from the chapter.

Is there currently a restriction on creating user groups independent of the
chapter? It would be good to know what this is?
Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club in
my neighbourhood?



> I do not think that the Chapter in its current form is representative of
> the Wikimedia Community in India. I have asked the Chapter to hold
> membership drives in other language wikis and other regions but this does
> not seem to have taken off. It has been 4 years since the Chapter was
> formed.
>
> The downside would be that several groups will have to interact with state
> governments in their respective states but I think this will make them
> understand and respect the Executive Committee's work more.
>
> I think this is worth considering in the present scenario.
>
> Warm regards,
> Pradeep Mohandas
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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>



-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi,

It is perhaps worth considering a format of having multiple user groups model 
in India rather than having one central Wikimedia India Chapter. 

I do not think that the Chapter in its current form is representative of the 
Wikimedia Community in India. I have asked the Chapter to hold membership 
drives in other language wikis and other regions but this does not seem to have 
taken off. It has been 4 years since the Chapter was formed. 

The downside would be that several groups will have to interact with state 
governments in their respective states but I think this will make them 
understand and respect the Executive Committee's work more. 

I think this is worth considering in the present scenario. 

Warm regards,
Pradeep Mohandas

Sent from my iPhone
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