RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
Feature rich firmware: -lets start by firmware that actually works and is really tested before release -Vlan capability on the SM to tag packets with Q, also with Vlan filtering -NAT cabability on the SM with DHCP Client and Server plus Port filtering and DMZ -Traffic filter in bridge mode, with option to filter ARP, PPPOE, Multicast, SNMP, DHCP server/client, SMP (port 135 and 445) ect. -Diff serv to identify and prioritize packets -Virtual High Priority RF Channel, allocates x amount of kbps to a virtual priority rf channel for QOS packets -Bandwidth management with CIR, MIR and burst settings -Ethernet port speed settings that actually works "ducking" -Lots of stats GPS sync is extra $$. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit NMS software is extra $$. True, but the the last version of this Prizm 2.0 is a monster of software with lots of features .. it is a tool that any 200 + cpe wisp should have. Auto update of network, auto discovery of CPE's with auto ip assignment, lots of snmp monitoring, auto provisioning tools, external connection interface for billing , cmr and other hooks Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs I guess I left the door open for comments like "feature rich firmware" what does THAT mean? It definately doesn't mean the SM number stays the same on the AP with each reboot or SM re-association.. ;) GPS sync is extra $$. NMS software is extra $$. The pricing I listed was MSRP (or what I could find online with a quick search)... and even with your posted prices, the Trango $149 CPE (10Mbps sustained, auto up/down speed ratio) is still a better buy. :) Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: >Let me comment on this > >#Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) > >is this MRSP ? you can buy this the AP for $800 +/- , Advantage for $1500 > >#C/I advantage >#Fixed up/down ratio > >Add GPS Sync, Feature rich firmware, NMS Software, Strong support, Good >promos, Only Manufacturer to offer price conscious upgrade program, third >party products (dishes , gps syncs) ect ect ect > >#$490 CPE ($737 advantage) .. yikes with CPE you have 3 options : > >Canopy Lite (1mbps) $170 +/- 25 packs >Canopy (14 Mbps Burst) $225 +/- >Canopy Advantage (14 Mbps sustained ) $550 ( way over priced IMHO ) > > > >Gino A. Villarini >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Travis Johnson >Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:31 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: [WISPA] vendor specs > >Hi, > >I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this >discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) > >This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data >on any of these radios: > >Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail >Dual polarity >10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) >Easy management (CLI and web) >$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) > >Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) >C/I advantage >Fixed up/down ratio >$490 CPE ($737 advantage) > >Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) >36Mbps and 40,000pps >$1,000 CPE > >For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over >2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked >very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater >locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, >etc.) within 100 yards of each other. > >Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of >radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is >"full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site >survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" >signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( > >Travis >Microserv > >Jon Langeler wrote: > > > >>Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only >>extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using >>canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 >>different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest >>that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a >>pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's >>vision, it keeps getting better. >> >>ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is >>fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also >>suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those >>retransmission
Re: [WISPA] RB153
Onboard PSU is 10W max like the RB112. Board draws 3-4W that leaves 6-7W. It shuld only be able to handle 1 SR9! - Original Message - From: "JNA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:00 AM Subject: [WISPA] RB153 > Does anyone know if the RB153 will handle 3 SR9 cards both physical form > factor and power consumption? > > Thanks, > John Buwa > Michiana Wireless > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
According to the DOL (department of Labor) an employee can be paid by the hour or for piece work (by the job) from http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm The Act requires employers of covered employees who are not otherwise exempt to pay these employees a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour as of September 1, 1997. Youths under 20 years of age may be paid a minimum wage of not less than $4.25 an hour during the first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. Employers may not displace any employee to hire someone at the youth minimum wage. Employers may pay employees on a piece‑rate basis, as long as they receive at least the equivalent of the required minimum hourly wage rate. Employers of tipped employees (i.e., those who customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips) may consider such tips as part of their wages, but employers must pay a direct wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit. They must also meet certain other conditions. I suppose that if these guys manage to spend over 20 (10 hrs each) hrs on every install for the pay period, then I would have to adjust their pay to bring them up to minimum wage. That hasn't been a problem. They average about 3 hrs/install including drive time. This is about twice as fast as installs got done back when they were paid hourly. This is a win/win/win solution as I see it. The employees like the method for making extra money. The customers like the techs getting in and out in a reasonable time. I like getting 2 or 3 installs/day vs 1/day like we got back when techs got paid per hour. We treat their install pay just like regular income. We withhold the withholdings, deal with the social security, etc. Lincoln Welder mfg company in Ohio pays EVERY employee piece-wage only. You might get $4/ea to wind motors, $2/ea to install a switch, $7/ea to screw wheels on, $1.50 to inspect parts, etc. They have withholdings, pay social security, etc. They even clock in/out, to insure to OSHA that no employee is working more than 120 hrs/week but this method has been in place for years and works very well. The employees love it and the unions hate it. It insures that the new guy in training gets up to speed in a reasonable time or washes out. The guy who has been there for 10 years can handle 10 $4 units/hr can make decent money. Pete Davis NoDial.net Scott Reed wrote: You might want to check with your accountant. I doubt the IRS is going to let you "contract" with people you also employ. You may be liable for FICA, etc. for all the installs they have done. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: Pete Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List Sent: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:40:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations > We outsource most of our installs to our employees. The two techs usually go out together, and split the $100. Its not unheard of for my techs to make more money on a busy week than I take in my salary, and I am an owner. > > They make $x/hr to do service calls, uninstalls, AP maintenance, etc and if they can keep those caught up, we schedule an install (usually 1 or 2 /day for 2 techs). They are OFF the clock for installs, and get $100/install. We provide the van, the tools, the gas, the CPE, and all consumables (staples, caulk, cat5, ends, jacks, faceplates, etc). That keeps them from usually turning in overtime. It gives them an incentive for completing installs in a timely manner (2 hr install = $25/hr/tech). Any service calls resulting from a faulty/sloppy install in the first 30 days result in the installer techs going on site to fix it on THEIR time, so they have an incentive to get it done right the first time around. > > We have a few other local IT/phone/security system consultants who will occasionally bring us a customer and offer to install them, since they are an existing consulting customer for them anyway and usually selling them a custom network/phone system/security system/audio system anyway. We will usually give them $125 or $150 and provide the CPE and minimal technical support. They will bring us the contract/customer worksheet for our files, and we don't even have to go on site. Since we usually charge $149 for the setup, we often let the consultant charge whatever he wants, and keep it, and put in as many custom cable runs and terminations as they can sell. We just start picking up the monthly billing. > > Those are good relationships to have. > > Pete Davis > NoDial.net > > chris cooper wrote: > > Im sure this has been covered before….. > > Have any of you outsourced installations? If so, has it been a positive experience, how much do you pay a contractor? > > Thanks > Chris No virus found in this incoming messag
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Travis Johnson wrote: Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( This is where Canopy's synchronization wins the day because it allows you to colocate more than one radio on the same channel. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big concern, it's worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer "residential rebate program" that's been going on for almost 2 years now It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for power supplies (they are sold separately) Regarding pricing AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to 25 pack: LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends December 31) Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10) 100 pack: Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10) Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0% Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE consumption over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack price, so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI Yes...I'm back WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for trango's. I believe your getting that price but at what qualities? I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk BA2 system all over the place. And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area. My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any issues with interference. The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles. I use omni's so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the same sand box. Canopy pricing: AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this > discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) > > This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data > on any of these radios: > > Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail > Dual polarity > 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) > Easy management (CLI and web) > $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) > > Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) > C/I advantage > Fixed up/down ratio > $490 CPE ($737 advantage) > > Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) > 36Mbps and 40,000pps > $1,000 CPE > > For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over > 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has > worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop > repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, > WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. > > Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of > radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is > "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site > survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the > "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > Jon Langeler wrote: > >> Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not >> only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started >> using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU >> between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp >> protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their >> actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an >> upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. >> >> ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ >> is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also >> suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those >> retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep >> customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable >> more often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an >> option in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a >> decent percentage of in ou
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Gino A. Villarini wrote: GPS sync is extra $$. Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
I haven't payed for a power supply in about a year. My distributor http://www.doubleradius.com usually tosses them in on specials and such. The prices I listed where from their website. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Charles Wu wrote: If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big concern, it's worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer "residential rebate program" that's been going on for almost 2 years now It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for power supplies (they are sold separately) Regarding pricing AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to 25 pack: LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends December 31) Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10) 100 pack: Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10) Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0% Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE consumption over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack price, so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI Yes...I'm back WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for trango's. I believe your getting that price but at what qualities? I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk BA2 system all over the place. And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area. My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any issues with interference. The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles. I use omni's so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the same sand box. Canopy pricing: AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data on any of these radios: Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail Dual polarity 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) Easy management (CLI and web) $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) C/I advantage Fixed up/down ratio $490 CPE ($737 advantage) Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) 36Mbps and 40,000pps $1,000 CPE For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( Travis Microserv Jon Langeler wrote: Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maint
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
25 pack: LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends December 31) Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10) 100 pack: Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10) Lol -- can't add -- should be 25 pack: LITE: $119 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends December 31) Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10) 100 pack: Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10) -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI Yes...I'm back WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:19 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big concern, it's worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer "residential rebate program" that's been going on for almost 2 years now It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for power supplies (they are sold separately) Regarding pricing AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to 25 pack: LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends December 31) Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10) 100 pack: Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10) Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0% Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE consumption over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack price, so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI Yes...I'm back WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for trango's. I believe your getting that price but at what qualities? I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk BA2 system all over the place. And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area. My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any issues with interference. The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles. I use omni's so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the same sand box. Canopy pricing: AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this > discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) > > This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data > on any of these radios: > > Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail > Dual polarity > 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) > Easy management (CLI and web) > $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) > > Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) > C/I advantage > Fixed up/down ratio > $490 CPE ($737 advantage) > > Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) > 36Mbps and 40,000pps > $1,000 CPE > > For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over > 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has > worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop > repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, > WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. > > Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of > radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is > "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site > survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the > "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > Jon Langeler wrote: > >> Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not >> only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started >> using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU >> between 3 differe
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
I will agree that Trango prices are lower then Moto Canopy. The 900mhz can come with integrated or connectorized for different prices but they are more expensive then what I listed. I just wanted to show that the difference in pricing is not a world of difference that Alvarion. You have to take the feature set and decide if the added features make them worth the cost. I looked at Trango and even visited a network utilizing them for BH for their wi-fi network. Canopy's C/I is what sold me on the product. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Trango offers many different CPE (5830, Fox, Fox Atlas, etc.). They have listed on their website the Fox Atlas CPE for $149 for a 30 pack pricing. This is a 10Mbps radio and with a $30 dish will reach up to 10 miles. I currently have a 22 mile 900mhz link with Trango (using an omni on the AP) and a 30.1 mile link with 2.4ghz Trango (also using an omni). The quantity discount pricing you have listed is very close to Trango's pricing on the 900mhz and 2.4ghz units... except Trango already has a dual polarity antenna AND an external antenna connector as part of that price. How much does the price go up on the Canopy (Cyclone?) to get the connector? Are your guys having to haul two different radios for each frequency just in case? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for trango's. I believe your getting that price but at what qualities? I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk BA2 system all over the place. And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area. My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any issues with interference. The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles. I use omni's so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the same sand box. Canopy pricing: AP = $898 (Advantage $1554) Single pricing CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing Add $40 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data on any of these radios: Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail Dual polarity 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) Easy management (CLI and web) $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) C/I advantage Fixed up/down ratio $490 CPE ($737 advantage) Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) 36Mbps and 40,000pps $1,000 CPE For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( Travis Microserv Jon Langeler wrote: Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever you want... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Nice try, but I've found that comment to be no
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
So does anyone out there use the Alvarion VL and willing to give real pricing and feature set? I am interested in how it stacks up for a BH solution. Anthony Will Broadband Crop. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data on any of these radios: Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail Dual polarity 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) Easy management (CLI and web) $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) C/I advantage Fixed up/down ratio $490 CPE ($737 advantage) Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) 36Mbps and 40,000pps $1,000 CPE For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( Travis Microserv Jon Langeler wrote: Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever you want... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good WISP neighbor, not because I had to. Why fight if you can cooperate. On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I. But Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets. C/I is not nearly as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably. There is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage. The Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it, when needed. One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our ground. The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise, within their range and LOS. When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push the limits of the technology. Its a LOS technology that we attempt NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man standing. Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and the customer does not tolerate it. IF a Canopy and Trango went to war, one might survive a little better than the other, but ultimately both customers would feel the interference the majority of the time. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
Id never said they couldn't be paid by the hour. I used to work for a roofing company, and they were regularly questioned about they way they paid their employees. If you have someone work in your office at for 6 hours, and then they go and "flat-rate" a 3 hour job, that looks like overtime to me, but then I am in California, and the labor laws here are more stringent than in a lot of other places. John >-Original Message- >From: Pete Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 06:10 AM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations > >-- >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: Gino A. Villarini wrote: GPS sync is extra $$. Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
That answered my comment. As long as they are employees for everything, there is no problem that I am aware of to pay some piece-rate and some hourly rate. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: Pete Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: WISPA General List Sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:10:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations > According to the DOL (department of Labor) an employee can be paid by the hour or for piece work (by the job) > > from http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm > > The Act requires employers of covered employees who are not otherwise exempt to pay these employees a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour as of September 1, 1997. Youths under 20 years of age may be paid a minimum wage of not less than $4.25 an hour during the first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. Employers may not displace any employee to hire someone at the youth minimum wage. > Employers may pay employees on a piece‑rate basis, as long as they receive at least the equivalent of the required minimum hourly wage rate. Employers of tipped employees (i.e., those who customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips) may consider such tips as part of their wages, but employers must pay a direct wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit. They must also meet certain other conditions. I suppose that if these guys manage to spend over 20 (10 hrs each) hrs on every install for the pay period, then I would have to adjust their pay to bring them up to minimum wage. That hasn't been a problem. They average about 3 hrs/install including drive time. This is about twice as fast as installs got done back when they were paid hourly. This is a win/win/win solution as I see it. The employees like the method for making extra money. The customers like the techs getting in and out in a reasonable time. I like getting 2 or 3 installs/day vs 1/day like we got back when techs got paid per hour. > > We treat their install pay just like regular income. We withhold the withholdings, deal with the social security, etc. > > Lincoln Welder mfg company in Ohio pays EVERY employee piece-wage only. You might get $4/ea to wind motors, $2/ea to install a switch, $7/ea to screw wheels on, $1.50 to inspect parts, etc. > They have withholdings, pay social security, etc. They even clock in/out, to insure to OSHA that no employee is working more than 120 hrs/week but this method has been in place for years and works very well. The employees love it and the unions hate it. It insures that the new guy in training gets up to speed in a reasonable time or washes out. The guy who has been there for 10 years can handle 10 $4 units/hr can make decent money. > > Pete Davis > NoDial.net > > Scott Reed wrote: You might want to check with your accountant. I doubt the IRS is going to let you "contract" with people you also employ. You may be liable for FICA, etc. for all the installs they have done. > > Scott Reed > Owner > NewWays > Wireless Networking > Network Design, Installation and Administration > www.nwwnet.net > > -- Original Message --- > From: Pete Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List > Sent: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:40:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations > > > We outsource most of our installs to our employees. The two techs usually go out together, and split the $100. Its not unheard of for my techs to make more money on a busy week than I take in my salary, and I am an owner. > > > > They make $x/hr to do service calls, uninstalls, AP maintenance, etc and if they can keep those caught up, we schedule an install (usually 1 or 2 /day for 2 techs). They are OFF the clock for installs, and get $100/install. We provide the van, the tools, the gas, the CPE, and all consumables (staples, caulk, cat5, ends, jacks, faceplates, etc). That keeps them from usually turning in overtime. It gives them an incentive for completing installs in a timely manner (2 hr install = $25/hr/tech). Any service calls resulting from a faulty/sloppy install in the first 30 days result in the installer techs going on site to fix it on THEIR time, so they have an incentive to get it done right the first time around. > > > > We have a few other local IT/phone/security system consultants who will occasionally bring us a customer and offer to install them, since they are an existing consulting customer for them anyway and usually selling them a custom network/phone system/security system/audio system anyway. We will usually give them $125 or $150 and provide the CPE and minimal technical support. They will bring us the contract/customer wor
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Travis Johnson wrote: The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I understand that one Trango sector can provide more usable bandwidth than one Canopy sector. But, you can have more Canopy sectors on one base station than Trango. Therefore, on a per base station basis Canopy provides superior usable bandwidth. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
Keep in mind...although, as techies, we love to get into a "my @[EMAIL PROTECTED] is bigger/better then yours" debate, the simple fact is that there's no "magic bullet" solution that will make your WISP succeed. Heck, the ones that I see fail or stagnate are generally the ones who spend all their mind-share "tweaking their system" and don't bother to go sign on customers. Remember, with the obsolecense of whatever technology you choose to deploy (heck, the value of your radio probably depreciates 30-50% the minute you hang it on the tower) as long as your network is stable and capable of adequately delivering your product, the value of your business is a DIRECT MULTIPLE of your EBIDTA &/or recurring revenue. Here's an analogy In the distribution business, we have our circles/listservs just like WISPs have listservs, and rather than debating wireless gear, we spend our time comparing back-end software platforms. Now, when valuing a distribution company, assuming that my customers are happy, orders are fulfilled, and inventory is properly tracked and accounted for, the amount of money that I spend on my back-end software (if it's $5k for Quickbooks Enterprise or $50k for Oracle or $250k for some custom developed solution) is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as compared to my revenues, cost of sales, EBIDTA & cash flow. >From an operational perspective, provided that you understand each platforms benefits/limitations, Canopy, Trango, Alvarion (and even DIY WiFi) are all tools, and they all work fine to fill the task that they were built for -- the success of your business is due more to your knowledge of networking and business operations (and ultimately sales and profits) then it is the product that you choose -Charles P.S. -- Xtratyme failed even though they spents on all three --- Operating Manager - CTI I'm back... WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: > Gino A. Villarini wrote: > >> GPS sync is extra $$. >> >> > > Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for > free. > >> True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd >> party >> options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps >> sync >> units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit >> >> > > Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all > happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective > vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs > than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync > devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, > handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. > > -Matt > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
Matt, You guys are argueing about irrelevant topics If memory serves me correctly, you provide non-oversubscribed wireless DIA (leased line replacement) for SMB/Enterprises in a Tier1/2 urban market and sell for $200-400 (if not higher) ARPU Travis provides massively oversubscribed residential bandwidth and competes against $20-40 access products It's not apples to apples -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs Travis Johnson wrote: > The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless > service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they > purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I > have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only > provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. > I understand that one Trango sector can provide more usable bandwidth than one Canopy sector. But, you can have more Canopy sectors on one base station than Trango. Therefore, on a per base station basis Canopy provides superior usable bandwidth. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
Good point Charles and exactly the point I was making during a vendor presentation not long ago. Bottom line is we are a results driven company. I really don't care if two tin cans and twine is the best solution or if the solution is pulsed multi-wave fiber as long as the results are what we are after. The old adage that a system made up of one brand over another renders a network more valuable than another is not what smart money looks for. The value of a network is the profit it generates to the bottom line. The equipment that produces those profits is largely irrelative as it will be replaced by newer technology in relatively short order anyway. We strive for the best product for the objective at hand and do not attempt to put a square peg in a round hole just because the last job happened to be a good fit for a square peg. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs Keep in mind...although, as techies, we love to get into a "my @[EMAIL PROTECTED] is bigger/better then yours" debate, the simple fact is that there's no "magic bullet" solution that will make your WISP succeed. Heck, the ones that I see fail or stagnate are generally the ones who spend all their mind-share "tweaking their system" and don't bother to go sign on customers. Remember, with the obsolecense of whatever technology you choose to deploy (heck, the value of your radio probably depreciates 30-50% the minute you hang it on the tower) as long as your network is stable and capable of adequately delivering your product, the value of your business is a DIRECT MULTIPLE of your EBIDTA &/or recurring revenue. Here's an analogy In the distribution business, we have our circles/listservs just like WISPs have listservs, and rather than debating wireless gear, we spend our time comparing back-end software platforms. Now, when valuing a distribution company, assuming that my customers are happy, orders are fulfilled, and inventory is properly tracked and accounted for, the amount of money that I spend on my back-end software (if it's $5k for Quickbooks Enterprise or $50k for Oracle or $250k for some custom developed solution) is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as compared to my revenues, cost of sales, EBIDTA & cash flow. >From an operational perspective, provided that you understand each platforms benefits/limitations, Canopy, Trango, Alvarion (and even DIY WiFi) are all tools, and they all work fine to fill the task that they were built for -- the success of your business is due more to your knowledge of networking and business operations (and ultimately sales and profits) then it is the product that you choose -Charles P.S. -- Xtratyme failed even though they spents on all three --- Operating Manager - CTI I'm back... WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: > Gino A. Villarini wrote: > >> GPS sync is extra $$. >> >> > > Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for > free. > >> True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd >> party >> options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps >> sync >> units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit >> >> > > Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all > happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective > vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs > than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync > devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, > handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. > > -Matt > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.o
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
Travis, WE provide Symetrical Business service with Canopy, why you couldn't ? A Regular AP has 7 Mbps if you split 75/25 that translates to : 5.25 / 1.75 Why can you sell a 512/512 over that type of AP split ? We use Advantage and have 10/4 MBps of capacity. My biggest Symetrical Plan is 3 Mbps, any other Customer that needs 5 , 6 10 symetrical gets a dedicated ptp link ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: > Gino A. Villarini wrote: > >> GPS sync is extra $$. >> >> > > Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. > >> True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd >> party >> options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps >> sync >> units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit >> >> > > Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all > happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective > vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs > than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync > devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, > handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. > > -Matt > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Hi, Because you will run out of upload capacity and the sector will be "full". We sell up to 2Mbps connections (2Mbps down and 2Mbps up)... so I would have to go to 50/50 split, meaning only 3.5Mbps download capacity... compared with 10Mbps for my Trango units. Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Travis, WE provide Symetrical Business service with Canopy, why you couldn't ? A Regular AP has 7 Mbps if you split 75/25 that translates to : 5.25 / 1.75 Why can you sell a 512/512 over that type of AP split ? We use Advantage and have 10/4 MBps of capacity. My biggest Symetrical Plan is 3 Mbps, any other Customer that needs 5 , 6 10 symetrical gets a dedicated ptp link ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: Gino A. Villarini wrote: GPS sync is extra $$. Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Advantage AP 14 Mbps will give you 7 / 7 Mbps, and thats at the same time, wheres with Trango you can only get 5 /5 ... Gino Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Because you will run out of upload capacity and the sector will be "full". We sell up to 2Mbps connections (2Mbps down and 2Mbps up)... so I would have to go to 50/50 split, meaning only 3.5Mbps download capacity... compared with 10Mbps for my Trango units. Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Travis, WE provide Symetrical Business service with Canopy, why you couldn't ? A Regular AP has 7 Mbps if you split 75/25 that translates to : 5.25 / 1.75 Why can you sell a 512/512 over that type of AP split ? We use Advantage and have 10/4 MBps of capacity. My biggest Symetrical Plan is 3 Mbps, any other Customer that needs 5 , 6 10 symetrical gets a dedicated ptp link ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: Gino A. Villarini wrote: GPS sync is extra $$. Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Yes, but I don't have to set the Trango it changes with the load automatically so I don't have to limit myself based on what the customers may be doing at that time. So I can load up the AP until the total up and down traffic is 10Mbps (which will probably be 8 down 2 up ratio). You are also comparing the "Advantage" Canopy system, which is a lot more money (for both the AP and CPE) than the "standard" Canopy (which is closer in price to Trango). What are the speed limits on the 2.4ghz versions of Canopy? I would love to give Canopy a try again (last time was 3+ years ago)... but there are just too many expenses (GPS sync, NMS, etc.) to get started to see if it will even really work in our network. Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Advantage AP 14 Mbps will give you 7 / 7 Mbps, and thats at the same time, wheres with Trango you can only get 5 /5 ... Gino Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Because you will run out of upload capacity and the sector will be "full". We sell up to 2Mbps connections (2Mbps down and 2Mbps up)... so I would have to go to 50/50 split, meaning only 3.5Mbps download capacity... compared with 10Mbps for my Trango units. Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Travis, WE provide Symetrical Business service with Canopy, why you couldn't ? A Regular AP has 7 Mbps if you split 75/25 that translates to : 5.25 / 1.75 Why can you sell a 512/512 over that type of AP split ? We use Advantage and have 10/4 MBps of capacity. My biggest Symetrical Plan is 3 Mbps, any other Customer that needs 5 , 6 10 symetrical gets a dedicated ptp link ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps of "usable" bandwidth. I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% comes from offering a real static IP address. Travis Microserv Matt Liotta wrote: Gino A. Villarini wrote: GPS sync is extra $$. Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free. True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd party options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps sync units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would be awesome for us. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
How much detail do you want? Those not familiar with Alvarion are generally shocked at the level of what can be done in terms of features. Makes Trango and Canopy look like a kindergartener's product. But to be candid, that level of detail is also Achilles' heel. I'll try to find a way to abbreviate some of the things while still giving examples of the depth of features. Other radios have some of the features, but usually they are much more rudimentary implementations, a good example is CIR/MIR. Read how ours is done and you'll see what I mean. I'll get specific on the next post. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs So does anyone out there use the Alvarion VL and willing to give real pricing and feature set? I am interested in how it stacks up for a BH solution. Anthony Will Broadband Crop. Travis Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this > discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;) > > This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data > on any of these radios: > > Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail > Dual polarity > 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio) > Easy management (CLI and web) > $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles) > > Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974) > C/I advantage > Fixed up/down ratio > $490 CPE ($737 advantage) > > Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail) > 36Mbps and 40,000pps > $1,000 CPE > > For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over > 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has > worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop > repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, > WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other. > > Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of > radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is > "full". We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site > survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the > "average" signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > Jon Langeler wrote: > >> Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not >> only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started >> using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU >> between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp >> protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their >> actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an >> upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. >> >> ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ >> is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also >> suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those >> retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep >> customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable >> more often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an >> option in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a >> decent percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I >> requirement affects other things like increases the range of a >> product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever >> you want... >> >> Jon Langeler >> Michwave Tech. >> >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >> >>> Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have >>> often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a >>> good WISP neighbor, not because I had to. Why fight if you can >>> cooperate. On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I. But >>> Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And >>> Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets. C/I is not nearly >>> as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran >>> links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably. There >>> is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real >>> world usage. The Trango just adds more polarities as more options >>> to work around it, when needed. One of the reasons we like Trango >>> is its resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out >>> and stand our ground. The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and >>> resilience to Noise, within their range and LOS. >>> >>> When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push >>> the limits of the technology. Its a LOS technology that we attempt >>> NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man >>> standing. Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and >>> the customer does not tolerate it. IF a Canopy and Trango went to >>> war
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: How much detail do you want? Those not familiar with Alvarion are generally shocked at the level of what can be done in terms of features. Makes Trango and Canopy look like a kindergartener's product. But to be candid, that level of detail is also Achilles' heel. I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about the VL series. I've looked over the website and followed a few of the threads (including this one) and am a little familiar with the product. For instance: How does it compare against Product X for price? (average street price) Some would use this type of product as an infrastructure device (backhauling towers to a central location). What makes it better than product X (Canopy, trango, etc.) for this application? For end user deployment, what makes it better than Canopy or other product? (high density AP type use) What other features put it "in a class all by itself"? From my perspective (as a consultant to the industry), why would I recommend this product above all others? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of these (probably some you have never heard of before or even thought of) I show in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is not simply an Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some basic CSMA/CA. This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of tables, drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things that can be configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want it.) · Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the chassi blade versions, including current consumption · Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over temperature warning · GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for their alarm capabilities · 110vAC or -48vDC power options · Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support over 600 feet from network switch/router to ODUs · AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 degree sectors plus options with external connector · OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more of the potential subscriber population · Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation · Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector · Over 40,000pps with small packets · No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets · FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge · Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in support · Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and layer-3 traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence (RFC791) or DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization based on UDP and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the optional Wireless Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support delay sensitive applications, enabling Multimedia Application Prioritization (MAP) for high performance voice and video. (MAP can increase VoIP capacity by as much as 500%) · Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU · Full management of all components, from any point in the system. · Components can be managed using standard management tools through SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for remote setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the Ethernet and/or wireless link. · True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better) · Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple (selectable) units simultaneously, thus radically reducing the time spent on unit configuration maintenance. · Back up/shadow flash, can support two different versions of firmware · 5MHz (4.9GHz version), 10MHz, or 20MHz channel options. · SUs autorecognize and configure channel size · SUs available with external connector or integrated 21dBi with 10.5h/10.5v beamwidth · Multilevel password, multi-layer ESSIDs · Configuration of remote access direction (from Ethernet only, from wireless link only or from both) · Configuration of IP addresses of authorized stations · Numerous LEDs detailing advanced status information, plus tri-color 10-bar alignment LEDs that directly corresponds to SNR, including amber for warning signal is too strong (SNR >50dB) · Pole mount or band strap mounting options, hardware included · Power supply included, with reset feature and integrated surge suppression · Specialty Cat 5 connector · Industrial grade waterproof seal with O rings · Auto or configurable maximum cell distance · Automatic distance learning. Per SU Distance Learning mechanism controlled by the AU enables each SU to adapt its Acknowledge timeout to its actual distance from the AU, minimizing delays in the wireless link · Low Priority Traffic Minimum Percent feature ensures a selectable certain amount of the traffic is reserved to low priority packets to prevent starvation of low priority traffic when there is a high demand for high priority traffic. · MAC address deny and allow list · Able to configure size of concatenated frames (enables customization/optimization based on expected applications) · Best AU and preferred AU options in the SUs. (Best AU explanation: each of the AUs can be given a quality mark based on the level at which it is received by the SU. The SU scans for a configured number of cycles, gathering information from all the AUs with which it can communicate. At the end of the scanning period, the SU reaches a Best AU decision according to the info
[WISPA] ARIN IP Application
My upstream is trying to obtain a set of ip numbers to use between ourselves, but ARIN is rejecting the application because they feel that we do not require or have use for our own ip numbers. Any tips would be appreciated in assisting to achieve this. -- You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
Geez Patrick, go to bed!!! Get some rest Seriously, this is a great list. Definitely shows how the VL is a completely different animal than the other options out there. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick Leary wrote: I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of these (probably some you have never heard of before or even thought of) I show in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is not simply an Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some basic CSMA/CA. This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of tables, drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things that can be configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want it.) · Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the chassi blade versions, including current consumption · Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over temperature warning · GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for their alarm capabilities · 110vAC or -48vDC power options · Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support over 600 feet from network switch/router to ODUs · AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 degree sectors plus options with external connector · OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more of the potential subscriber population · Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation · Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector · Over 40,000pps with small packets · No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets · FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge · Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in support · Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and layer-3 traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence (RFC791) or DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization based on UDP and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the optional Wireless Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support delay sensitive applications, enabling Multimedia Application Prioritization (MAP) for high performance voice and video. (MAP can increase VoIP capacity by as much as 500%) · Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU · Full management of all components, from any point in the system. · Components can be managed using standard management tools through SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for remote setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the Ethernet and/or wireless link. · True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better) · Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple (selectable) units simultaneously, thus radically reducing the time spent on unit configuration maintenance. · Back up/shadow flash, can support two different versions of firmware · 5MHz (4.9GHz version), 10MHz, or 20MHz channel options. · SUs autorecognize and configure channel size · SUs available with external connector or integrated 21dBi with 10.5h/10.5v beamwidth · Multilevel password, multi-layer ESSIDs · Configuration of remote access direction (from Ethernet only, from wireless link only or from both) · Configuration of IP addresses of authorized stations · Numerous LEDs detailing advanced status information, plus tri-color 10-bar alignment LEDs that directly corresponds to SNR, including amber for warning signal is too strong (SNR >50dB) · Pole mount or band strap mounting options, hardware included · Power supply included, with reset feature and integrated surge suppression · Specialty Cat 5 connector · Industrial grade waterproof seal with O rings · Auto or configurable maximum cell distance · Automatic distance learning. Per SU Distance Learning mechanism controlled by the AU enables each SU to adapt its Acknowledge timeout to its actual distance from the AU, minimizing delays in the wireless link · Low Priority Traffic Minimum Percent feature ensures a selectable certain amount of the traffic is reserved to low priority packets to prevent starvation of low priority traffic when there is a high demand for high priority traffic. · MAC address deny and allow list · Able to configure size of concatenated frames (enables customization/optimization based on expected applications) · Best AU and preferred AU options in the SUs. (Best AU explanation: each of the AUs can be given a quality mark based on the level at which it is received by the SU. The SU scans for a configured number of cycles, gathering information from all the AUs with which it can communicate. At the end of the scanning period, the SU reaches a Best AU decision according to the information gathere
Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application
Carl A Jeptha wrote: My upstream is trying to obtain a set of ip numbers to use between ourselves, but ARIN is rejecting the application because they feel that we do not require or have use for our own ip numbers. If you're trying to get the IPs for your network, you should probably apply directly to ARIN, unless you're a very small network indeed. How much IP space are you using now? And are you single-homed or multihomed? David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
