Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-04 Thread Marlon K. Schafer


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? 
gateway, ip and broadcast.  I see that as three.  Or does a /30 use up 
four?


The customer will still use 1.


What about the gateway and broadcast addresses?  Yeah, the customer only 
uses one, but it takes more than one to provide that.


Can we use a /24 gateway ip for /30 routes?




Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one.


your customers don't have a gateway?  The only difference in routing and 
bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP resides.


I think you're missunderstanding what I'm trying to say.  If we did a 
network of /30 addresses how many customers can be put on a class c (256 
addresses)?


If we just bridge that same class C how many customers can we put on it?



The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by 
using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to 
client communications.  Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? 
Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network.


Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit access 
to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent customer a on AP1 
from communicating with customer a on AP2.


That's where the vlan switches come in.  They'll prevent that from 
happening.




--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Tom DeReggi

The big thing here is... Is one selling revenue or selling a network?
If one is selling revenue, the buyer could probably care less what allows 
the revenue to happen.
But personally, I Don;t want to jsut sell revenue, I want to get credit for 
my infrastructure also.
If a network is installed right, with the right gear, it should be worth 
MORE than the cost to buy the gear new uninstalled, NOT  LESS as used gear.
I'd argue Alvarion type gear could maximize the value allocated for the 
infrastructure.
It also depends on whetehr someone is trying to get 1X annual versus 6 x 
annnual.  To get the high Xs, you need more than just revenue to sell.
The flip view, is if the flexibilty of selling the Mikrotik can gain you 
revenue quicker (which would need debating), then it could be argued as an 
advantage to have higher rate of revenue growth than infrastructure credit..


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:00 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Tom DeReggi
I agree than name brand gear, is a safer bet for a WISP, which is why I 
primarilly use Name brand certified gear.


However your been there done that areguement for 802.11B does not apply.
There is a BIG difference between todays flexible 802.11a gear and last 
generation legacy 802.11b.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I
would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment
out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or
Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there,
done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. 
Let

me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about

your

network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.

An

Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and

this

is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.

That's

just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed

him

in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his

opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch
a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell
prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Tom DeReggi
I always get jealous when I hear the stories where people can pull off using 
Omni's in 900.
In our neck of the woods it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 360 degree of free spectrum 
on the same channel.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers.   I have towers fed with 5 
gig

Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5
gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an
omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several
times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz 
band

on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent
sectors?
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


I thought about the same things.  Once I put canopy or trango in, I've
gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away
my customers.

I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and
basing it on Mikrotik.  We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely
better.  But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I
couldn't offer those plans.

Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or
impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only
way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that
equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could
be Trango or Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been
there, done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked
back.  Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my

company..



Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about



your



network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.



An



Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and



this



is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.



That's



just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed



him



in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his



opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will
fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical

sell prices?

I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Tom DeReggi
The real significant value will come when AP bandwdith management will allow 
bandwdith management on individual VLAN tags.
Meaning, if 10 customers reside behind 1 CPE, 10 seperate bandwidth 
management assignments can be made for them.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and 
more muddied all of the time.


How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.


This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here, but 
the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better 
described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.


What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better 
customer isolation.


This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a wireless 
network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the 
scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that 
VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 
1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP.


With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan 
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like 
what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical 
every day.


No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and 
more people are getting into the business of providing internet service 
without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it 
were not bridged.  You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved 
more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other 
way around.  (there is one notable exception, but I think those results 
are a bit skewed for other reasons.)


Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, yes. 
Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to 
create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, even with VLANs, 
there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing.


solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically 
frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We 
don't even have a good option for routing at the


You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border 
router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range 
of public IP space is routed via that /30 address.  You are incorrect in 
your assumption that there is no routing used at all.


customer other than doing it just because.  It's certainly not a 
requirement.


No...not a requirement.  It's just a more scalable solution.

Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. 
Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe.  And with thousands


I'd disagree here, too.  But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do 
I know...


The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network 
that can be run by less technical staff.  There is a cost savings there 
too.


It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are 
a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale 
possibilities.  But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a 
routed network.  I've been in this business for a long time.  I've built 
several networks to fairly large scale, including more than one to over 
1000 customer base.  One that I am now managing has over 3000 subs.  That 
network is using VLANs to provide some services.  It is using other 
technologies as well, but the network is routed.  You can't scale a 
bridged network.  It's just that simple.  As I said in another post...you 
don't have to believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best 
practice.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network?
gateway, ip and broadcast.  I see that as three.  Or does a /30 use up four?

Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one.

The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by 
using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client 
communications.  Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? 
Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network.


marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Hello Marlon,

How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties
up three IPs?  I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger
subnet dedicated to the sector.

We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one
public IP to each CPE router.  The radios get private space to conserve
public IP space as well as increase security.

IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons.  Two come
quickly to mind.

First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself
blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind
the same IP address.  Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one
public IP address.  No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your
service over one IP!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and
more muddied all of the time.

How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.


This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here,
but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is
better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.


It's a very high cost.  Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip
addys?  How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into
trouble again?  There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with.




What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better
customer isolation.


This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a wireless
network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the
scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that
VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier
1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP.


With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like



what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical
every day.


No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and



more people are getting into the business of providing internet service
without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it



were not bridged.  You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved
more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other
way around.  (there is one notable exception, but I think those results
are a bit skewed for other reasons.)

Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, yes.
Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to
create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, even with VLANs,
there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing.


solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically
frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We
don't even have a good option for routing at the


You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border
router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range
of public IP space is routed via that /30 address.  You are incorrect in
your assumption that there is no routing used at all.


On the client side that's not correct.  We have ONE vlan port.  ALL of our
fiber customers connect right in to that vlan.  That vlan hits a switch on
our network, right beside one of the main wireless links.  No routing till
it hits the customer's site.




customer other than doing it just because.  It's certainly not a
requirement.


No...not a requirement.  It's just a more scalable solution.


There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on
that network.




Maybe

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed 
network? gateway, ip and broadcast.  I see that as three.  Or does 
a /30 use up four?


The customer will still use 1.


Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one.


your customers don't have a gateway?  The only difference in routing 
and bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP 
resides.


The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up 
for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking 
client to client communications.  Both this and routing result in 
the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or 
the network.


Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit 
access to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent 
customer a on AP1 from communicating with customer a on AP2.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: SPAM ? Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Mac Dearman


Marlon says:

How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network?

* One!


gateway, ip and broadcast.  I see that as three.  Or does a /30 use up four?

* That depends on how many clients you have off that AP. I generally use a
/24 at each tower - or a group of smaller towers. Then all clients off those
towers share a mutual broadcast and gateway IP.


Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one.

* Same as a routed network.

The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by 
using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client 
communications.  Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? 
Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network.

* Even in a routed network clients on the same /24 can see one another
unless you kill the intra bss ability. Depending on the amount of private
IPs you are doing NAT on and where you do it - -I can NAT everyone on my
network or just each /24 with 1 public IP that is a part of a /24, /29 /27
...etc   Its really no waste if done in this fashion.


Mac






marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Hello Marlon,

How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties
up three IPs?  I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger
subnet dedicated to the sector.

We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one
public IP to each CPE router.  The radios get private space to conserve
public IP space as well as increase security.

IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons.  Two come
quickly to mind.

First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself
blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind
the same IP address.  Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one
public IP address.  No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your
service over one IP!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and
more muddied all of the time.

How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.

 This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here,
 but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is
 better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.

It's a very high cost.  Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip
addys?  How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into
trouble again?  There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with.


What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better
customer isolation.

 This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a wireless
 network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the
 scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that
 VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier
 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP.

With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like

what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical
every day.

 No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and

 more people are getting into the business of providing internet service
 without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it

 were not bridged.  You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved
 more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other
 way around.  (there is one notable exception, but I think those results
 are a bit skewed for other reasons.)

 Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, yes.
 Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to
 create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, even with VLANs,
 there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing.

solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically
frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We
don't even have a good option for routing at the

 You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border
 router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range
 of public IP

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Brad Belton
lol...Butch beat me to the punch.  

Marlon stated:
How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed 
network? gateway, ip and broadcast.  I see that as three.  Or does 
a /30 use up four?

I still don't see how you add what you stated above as three:

Network (1)
Gateway (2)
IP  (3)
Broadcast   (4)


Nevertheless, a bridged network requires this many IPs no different than a
routed network.  The difference is routing requires the use of three
additional IPs per segment of your network and not necessarily for each
client.

Here is a quick cheat sheet on subnets:

/32 =   one IP
/31 =   two IP subnet (rarely used)
/30 =   four IP subnet
/29 =   eight IP subnet
/28 =   sixteen IP subnet
/27 =   thirty-two IP subnet
/26 =   sixty-four IP subnet
/25 =   one hundred twenty-eight IP subnet
/24 =   two hundred fifty-six IP subnet
etc, etc...

So, for an example if you had a HUB site with four Sectors and each Sector
has approx 25-50 clients you could do one of two things.  Bridge the entire
100-200 clients into one large broadcast domain by bridging all four Sectors
into one dumb switch or you could segment each Sector into its own subnet by
routing your network.

Certainly the bridging solution is easier to implement, but considering the
risk of one client becoming infected and taking down the entire HUB vs. only
one sector I would recommend routing.

Simply place a five or more port router at the base of the tower and assign
a /26 Subnet to each Sector.  In doing this you've burned only nine more
IP addresses routing vs. bridging to serve the same 200+ clients.

The bridged design will burn three IPs vs. the routed design burning
twelve, but again considering the benefits of routing over bridging this is
a small price to pay.

Best,

Brad








-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 1:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


The customer will still use 1.

Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one.

your customers don't have a gateway?  The only difference in routing 
and bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP 
resides.

The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up 
for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking 
client to client communications.  Both this and routing result in 
the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or 
the network.

Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit 
access to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent 
customer a on AP1 from communicating with customer a on AP2.

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Chris Cooper
Not sure I follow you Dennis- are you purchasing these new for this price or
is this what you are valuing them at takeover?

Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:25 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into
the CPE, for what, 99 bucks!   150 something including a 19db antenna, where
the 99 is a 12 db antenna.  BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output.  Good for
here in MO with our dang HILLS!

Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.2kwireless.com

2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network
consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking,
security, and Mikrotik routers.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing
goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:



reduced truck roll,



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area,
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP.
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.





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This footnote

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-03 Thread Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless
New.. www.highgainantennas.com.  These are 2.4 though.  You an do a 900 for
what, a bit over 300.  We charge 350 to make sure we are in the green.

Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.2kwireless.com
 
2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network
consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking,
security, and Mikrotik routers.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Cooper
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 3:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Not sure I follow you Dennis- are you purchasing these new for this price or
is this what you are valuing them at takeover?

Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:25 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into
the CPE, for what, 99 bucks!   150 something including a 19db antenna, where
the 99 is a 12 db antenna.  BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output.  Good for
here in MO with our dang HILLS!

Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.2kwireless.com

2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network
consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking,
security, and Mikrotik routers.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing
goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:



reduced truck roll,



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area,
but the others have obscured LOS, I

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and 
more muddied all of the time.


How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.

What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better customer 
isolation.


With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, 
bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what 
Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every 
day.


Shoot, know how they do the fiber to the home out here?  We're talking 100 
meg fiber to the home too, not some wimpy 1 meg solution.  They vlan 
customers into a single port to the isp.  Basically frame a fancy switch, 
almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We don't even have a good 
option for routing at the customer other than doing it just because.  It's 
certainly not a requirement.


With so much extra capacity on the network, good switches, proper billing 
models etc. we don't need to route anything but the boarder connection 
anymore.  Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds 
subs.  Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe.  And with thousands I'll bet a 
creative operator could get away without routing just fine.  It gets easier 
every day too.


I know the routing purists here will be all over this one :-).  But if you 
think about what I'm saying without the religious fanaticism usually applied 
to the argument it rings more and more true all of the time.


The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network 
that can be run by less technical staff.  There is a cost savings there too.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:28 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:


Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't

provide

routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing

goop,

it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:




reduced truck roll,




Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd
have to change the cost

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Gino A. Villarini
This is not a good position, I would like to sell my operation @ the moment
that I assume I can get the best return for my investment OR as an exit
strategy.  

Would you prefer to sell your customer base to a competitor or loose them
all together...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Equity value is only important to those who wish to build and sell

Those of us who just wish to make a living don't care so much about 
re-sale value.  We are more interested in income.

Patrick Leary wrote:

I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.   

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Gino A. Villarini
I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I
would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment
out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or
Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there,
done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back.  Let
me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about
your
 network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
 but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.
An
 Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
 fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and
this
 is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.
That's
 just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
 roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed
him
 in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his
opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch
a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell
prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Rick Smith
I thought about the same things.  Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta
replace
the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers.

I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing
it on 
Mikrotik.  We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better.  But without
being
able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans.  

Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or
impossible, in this
area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I
would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment
out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or
Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there,
done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back.  Let
me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about
your
 network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, 
 but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.
An
 Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may 
 fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and
this
 is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.
That's
 just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the 
 roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed
him
 in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his
opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread John Scrivner
How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have 
several times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 
900 MHz band on one sector? If yes then how do you stop 
self-interference on adjacent sectors?

Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


I thought about the same things.  Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta
replace
the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers.

I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing
it on 
Mikrotik.  We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better.  But without

being
able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans.  


Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or
impossible, in this
area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I
would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment
out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or
Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there,
done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back.  Let
me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal. 


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about
   


your
 

network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, 
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.
   


An
 

Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may 
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and
   


this
 


is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.
   


That's
 

just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the 
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed
   


him
 


in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his
   


opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Rick Smith
using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers.   I have towers fed with 5 gig
Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5
gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an
omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several
times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band
on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent
sectors?
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

I thought about the same things.  Once I put canopy or trango in, I've 
gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away 
my customers.

I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and 
basing it on Mikrotik.  We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely 
better.  But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I 
couldn't offer those plans.

Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or 
impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only 
way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that 
equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could 
be Trango or Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been 
there, done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked 
back.  Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my
company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about


your
  

network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, 
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.


An
  

Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may 
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and


this
  

is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.


That's
  

just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the 
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed


him
  

in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his


opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will 
fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical
sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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computer viruses(42).
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Charles Wu
Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?

I'd be interested to see it.

Can't resist...

It's mainly due to the current Canopy gear trade-out promo
Buy an Alvarion network, get your $8k Canopy credit, sell Alvarion to
American (more ), buy replacement Canopies for $8k =)

ducking

-Charles



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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Retaking the thread, all you guys doing Miktotik 900 mhz, why don't you try
OSBridge 900 Client ?  it's Mikrotik compatible, it has built in Router and
you don't have to waste your time sourcing parts, dealing with diff
warranties and assembling it.  Its $280 plus antenna

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:02 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers.   I have towers fed with 5 gig
Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5
gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an
omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several
times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band
on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent
sectors?
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

I thought about the same things.  Once I put canopy or trango in, I've 
gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away 
my customers.

I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and 
basing it on Mikrotik.  We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely 
better.  But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I 
couldn't offer those plans.

Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or 
impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I second Patrick comments,

As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only 
way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that 
equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could 
be Trango or Alvarion.

802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been 
there, done that.  Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked 
back.  Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my
company..


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about


your
  

network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, 
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.


An
  

Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may 
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and


this
  

is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.


That's
  

just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the 
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed


him
  

in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his


opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will 
fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical
sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
--
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This footnote

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Travis Johnson
There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The 
Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they 
should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been 
fixed or even addressed by MT.


Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.


I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 

SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and 
it blew them away.)


Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. 
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.


This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to 
be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking 
the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference 
between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits 
and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The 
primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause 
more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other.


On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy 
to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject.



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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Gino A. Villarini
nice

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:11 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?

I'd be interested to see it.

Can't resist...

It's mainly due to the current Canopy gear trade-out promo
Buy an Alvarion network, get your $8k Canopy credit, sell Alvarion to
American (more ), buy replacement Canopies for $8k =)

ducking

-Charles



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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Gino A. Villarini
It's a problem with 100baseT Modulation, 

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with
Ethernet.

I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.   Once I
moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 532
right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed
and a 2.4 repeater there now...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik
532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be
(150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even
addressed by MT.

Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:
 On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
 provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
 home. At work we have our own router.

 I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
 offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
 COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
 others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.

 VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does
 SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
 that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and 
 it blew them away.)

 Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
 Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)

 Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
 of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
 shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
 could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
 disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
 Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
 another WISP is over driving a system.

 This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to 
 be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
 little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking 
 the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference 
 between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits 
 and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The 
 primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause 
 more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other.

 On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
 about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
 it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy 
 to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject.

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread rabbtux rabbtux

is there somewhere where I could find documentation on this issue.
I'm just about to migrate many of my POPs from custom-wrap/soekris
boards to MT routerboards.

On 12/2/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The
Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they
should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been
fixed or even addressed by MT.

Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:
 On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
 provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my
 home. At work we have our own router.

 I provide a router because that is the best network design and it
 offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a
 COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it,
 others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.

 VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does
 SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
 that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and
 it blew them away.)

 Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about
 Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)

 Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some
 of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally
 shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we
 could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been
 disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
 Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that
 another WISP is over driving a system.

 This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to
 be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a
 little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking
 the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference
 between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits
 and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The
 primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause
 more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other.

 On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not
 about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of
 it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy
 to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject.

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread John Scrivner
Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have 
personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This 
problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a 
transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the 
outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at 
the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in 
many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise 
elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am 
sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but 
they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece 
for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over 
the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install.

Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with
Ethernet.

I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.   Once I
moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 532
right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed
and a 2.4 repeater there now...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik
532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be
(150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even
addressed by MT.

Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:
 


On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

   

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.
 

I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


   


VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does
 


SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
   

that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and 
it blew them away.)
 

Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


   

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.
 

This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to 
be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking 
the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference 
between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits 
and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The 
primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause 
more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other.


On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy 
to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject.


   


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RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Mac Dearman
I haven't ever seen any documentation on the interference issue and I have
never had any complaints from any where we have our gear. We are co-located
on Parish towers, leased space on various towers and then have some of our
towers with space leased to other agencies. There are all types of RF on all
these sites and we are running many (read very MANY) MTRB532's with no
trouble. There are fire dept, sheriff's depts, (3 Parishes) ambulance
services, water companies, HAM radios, farm 2 ways, local PD's, as well as
cell phone and pagers on all of these sites. I feel assured if there were a
problem - - I would have been the one to have found it as we stand a great
chance of interfering with numerous sub 200MHz spectrum.

 I will take a picture and post it as some of our MT RB532's are nestled
in amongst numerous sub 200MHz antennas and have never heard a word from
anyone - - - 

I don't doubt (as Scriv mentioned) that there could be some harmonics or RF
radiation over Ethernet - but it cant be very high or very bad. IMHO


Mac 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of rabbtux rabbtux
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:16 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

is there somewhere where I could find documentation on this issue.
I'm just about to migrate many of my POPs from custom-wrap/soekris
boards to MT routerboards.

On 12/2/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The
 Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they
 should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been
 fixed or even addressed by MT.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Butch Evans wrote:
  On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:
 
  Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
  provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my
  home. At work we have our own router.
 
  I provide a router because that is the best network design and it
  offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a
  COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it,
  others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.
 
  VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does
  SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
  that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and
  it blew them away.)
 
  Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about
  Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)
 
  Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some
  of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally
  shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we
  could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been
  disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
  Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that
  another WISP is over driving a system.
 
  This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to
  be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a
  little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking
  the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference
  between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits
  and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The
  primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause
  more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other.
 
  On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not
  about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of
  it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy
  to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject.
 
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread John Scrivner
I have only seen this type of interference three times. Twice with 
Etherants and once with a Trango FOX. I have heard of other gear having 
similar issues from other WISPs. It usually effects over-the-air 
television or two-way radio communications located on the same tower as 
the data radio. I have heard of this type of interference a few times in 
regard to the RB532. I do not know if this particular board has a higher 
degree of this interference or if it is just a popular radio which has 
been identified to have similar issues. I do not have any RB532s in the 
field so I cannot speak to this one way or another for that particular 
product. I am guessing that some manufacturers have identified and 
resolved these issues prior to product release while others have not. 
From what I hear about the RB532 this is still an ongoing issue. I am 
also guessing that ferrite beads will at least diminish the level of 
noise for those who are dealing with this.

Scriv


Patrick Leary wrote:


Very cool troubleshooting trick, but I've never heard of the problem. Is
that wide spread John?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have 
personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This 
problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a 
transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the 
outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at 
the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in 
many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise 
elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am 
sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but 
they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece 
for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over


the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install.
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

 


I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with
Ethernet.

I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.
   


Once I
 


moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 532
right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig
   


feed
 


and a 2.4 repeater there now...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The
   


Mikrotik
 


532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not
   


be
 


(150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or
   


even
 


addressed by MT.

Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:


   


On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

  

 

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.


   

I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


  

 


VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does


   


SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
  

 

that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and 
it blew them away.)


   

Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


  

 

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.


   

This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to 
be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone breaking
 



 

the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference 
between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits 
and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits.  The 
primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause 
more harm

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Travis Johnson
I would LOVE to buy some and test this solution... as I don't believe 
that will fix the problem with the RB532's. The reason I say this is the 
problem is actually WORSE when you use just the regular 48V power supply 
(not PoE) and don't even plug an ethernet cable into the board at all. 
The noise is coming directly off the board.


If someone wants to send me some, I can easily test it. I'll even pay 
for them and shipping.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have 
personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This 
problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a 
transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the 
outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads 
at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix 
in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise 
elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am 
sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but 
they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece 
for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together 
over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install.

Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with
Ethernet.

I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.   
Once I

moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 532
right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 
gig feed

and a 2.4 repeater there now...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The 
Mikrotik

532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be
(150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even
addressed by MT.

Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:
 


On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

  
Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.

I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


  

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does


SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
  
that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator 
and it blew them away.)

Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


  
Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.

This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out 
to be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone 
breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a 
difference between operating a system that is not certified within 
legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal 
power limits.  The primary difference is that one of these (you get 
to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than 
the other.


On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the 
courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the 
subject.


  

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless
Just a FYI, I would not be purchasing ANY of the equipment in most cases.
3-6 months of each customers monthly reoccurring, and I am taking over your
costs on the towers.  That's about it.  Now if your network has standards,
as mine has MTs for APs only, and such, or any other brand, I would look at
that as, ya that equipment is worth something  Even if it was MTs, a tower
with 3 sectors and a backhaul would only be worth, what 500 to 1000 in a buy
out.  That's assuming that it is all working and the subs are the same.  If
I had to buy proprietary gear to add customers, then I would maybe even drop
that price a bit.

What I am trying to say is that the gear really don't matter, it's the subs
and the leases.  The leases are a liability, they cost, so I am not going to
purchase a lease from someone.  I will purchase what equipment is up
there, and the subs they are off of.  But most likely would swap that out at
the time of takeover.  (Been thinking of this lately)

Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.2kwireless.com
 
2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network
consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking,
security, and Mikrotik routers.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:01 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless
We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into
the CPE, for what, 99 bucks!   150 something including a 19db antenna, where
the 99 is a 12 db antenna.  BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output.  Good for
here in MO with our dang HILLS!

Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.2kwireless.com
 
2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network
consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking,
security, and Mikrotik routers.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the 
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they 
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless 
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing
goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

  

reduced truck roll,



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.


  


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This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals 
computer viruses(190).







 
 


This footnote

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Butch Evans

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, JohnnyO wrote:

Travis - please show me PROOF of this - Lemme see the scans 
you've performed by Spec-An and any other documented data you've 
accumulated.


I've heard of this issue.  I will be doing some testing in the next 
2 weeks with some conclusive tests.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Travis Johnson

Butch... here is what we found...

Non-PoE 48V input was the worst for noise at 100-150MHz and 400-450MHz.
PoE 48V was down a little, but only slightly.
Non-PoE 18V input got rid of most of the 100-150MHz, and dropped the 
400-450MHz by 70%.
PoE 18V was down more, with 99% of the 100-150MHz gone and the 
400-450MHz down by 80% or more.


Travis
Microserv

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, JohnnyO wrote:

Travis - please show me PROOF of this - Lemme see the scans you've 
performed by Spec-An and any other documented data you've accumulated.


I've heard of this issue.  I will be doing some testing in the next 2 
weeks with some conclusive tests.



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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Butch Evans

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting 
more and more muddied all of the time.


How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.


This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here, 
but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is 
better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.


What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better 
customer isolation.


This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a 
wireless network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide 
some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. 
If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the 
networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are 
using...routed with BGP.


With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan 
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and 
features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming 
less and less critical every day.


No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because 
more and more people are getting into the business of providing 
internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network 
would function better if it were not bridged.  You can argue that 
point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to 
routed with positive results than the other way around.  (there is 
one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed 
for other reasons.)


Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, 
yes.  Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such 
as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, 
even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach 
without some routing.


solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. 
Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing 
used at all.  We don't even have a good option for routing at the


You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border 
router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your 
range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address.  You are 
incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all.


customer other than doing it just because.  It's certainly not a 
requirement.


No...not a requirement.  It's just a more scalable solution.

Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds 
subs.  Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe.  And with thousands


I'd disagree here, too.  But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so 
what do I know...


The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a 
network that can be run by less technical staff.  There is a cost 
savings there too.


It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. 
VLANs are a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool 
upsale possibilities.  But, VLANs are not intended to be a 
replacement for a routed network.  I've been in this business for a 
long time.  I've built several networks to fairly large scale, 
including more than one to over 1000 customer base.  One that I am 
now managing has over 3000 subs.  That network is using VLANs to 
provide some services.  It is using other technologies as well, but 
the network is routed.  You can't scale a bridged network.  It's 
just that simple.  As I said in another post...you don't have to 
believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best 
practice.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Butch Evans

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Travis Johnson wrote:


Non-PoE 48V input was the worst for noise at 100-150MHz and 400-450MHz.
PoE 48V was down a little, but only slightly.
Non-PoE 18V input got rid of most of the 100-150MHz, and dropped the 
400-450MHz by 70%.
PoE 18V was down more, with 99% of the 100-150MHz gone and the 400-450MHz down 
by 80% or more.


I'll test against these results and post what I find.  I hope to be 
able to do this after hours at TenX (at the training class I'm doing 
there).


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Charles Wu
Ferrite beads help but do not solve the issue

-Charles

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:32 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


I would LOVE to buy some and test this solution... as I don't believe 
that will fix the problem with the RB532's. The reason I say this is the 
problem is actually WORSE when you use just the regular 48V power supply 
(not PoE) and don't even plug an ethernet cable into the board at all. 
The noise is coming directly off the board.

If someone wants to send me some, I can easily test it. I'll even pay 
for them and shipping.

Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
 Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have
 personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This 
 problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a 
 transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the 
 outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads 
 at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix 
 in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise 
 elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am 
 sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but 
 they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece 
 for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together 
 over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install.
 Scriv


 Rick Smith wrote:

 I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do 
 with Ethernet.

 I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.   
 Once I
 moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 
 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 
 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now...

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

 There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The
 Mikrotik
 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be
 (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even
 addressed by MT.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Butch Evans wrote:
  

 On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

   
 Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
 provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
 home. At work we have our own router.
 
 I provide a router because that is the best network design and it
 offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
 COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
 others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.

   
 VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does
 
 SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
   
 that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator
 and it blew them away.)
 
 Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about
 Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)

   
 Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some
 of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
 shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
 could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
 disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that.
 Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
 another WISP is over driving a system.
 
 This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out
 to be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
 little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone 
 breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a 
 difference between operating a system that is not certified within 
 legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal 
 power limits.  The primary difference is that one of these (you get 
 to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than 
 the other.

 On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not
 about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
 it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the 
 courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the 
 subject.

   
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Erik Jansson
Each product has strength and weaknesses and what is best for a city 
wisp probably won't cut it for some one in the boonies. We use to use 
Trango but they moved there product closer to Moto and I for us that was 
the wrong direction.  We also have many hundred Wave rider customers and 
even with some of its draw backs compared to newer products the software 
is great compared to Trango, you can solve almost any issue from you 
desktop where you need other tools or hardware to come close on a 
Trango.  The Alvarion products I have used are top notch but their 
900mhz is lacking in many ways.


I would tend to side a bit with Patrick on a brand name network having a 
better resale value and  potential as it is a know quantity where as a 
Mikrotik networks quality is harder to value as it depends more on the 
people who put it together. But just because your use M$ for your PC and 
network does not mean you have a better network or desktop when compared 
to Linux.  It's just different.  Mikrotik is not just about 802.11a/b/g 
which in most cases I try and avoid.  They to have a proprietary 
protocol too that employs polling for P2MP and does away with may of the 
a/b/g issues.


With Mikrotik you are not dependent on a single vendor and their stock 
issues, you can in most cases work around them.  Think of it this way 
too.  No multi thousand dollar spares sitting on a self getting dusty.  
If my main back haul, AP, Hotspot, etc. takes a lighting hit, I can 
convert my own client radio into a back haul or what ever and tune it to 
any frequency from 4.9ghz to 6ghz or just even grab an old 486 and a 
wireless nic from a local store and your up in only an hour or so longer 
then it takes to drive to the site.  Due to the frequency rang available 
you also do not have to stock a selection of multi hundred dollar CPE's 
or multi thousand dollar APs' to cover different bands.  About the only 
disadvantage I see in this is that I'm guessing that products like 
Alvarion MAY perform better in noisy environments as the frequency 
restriction on these products should in theory provide better 
selectivity then mPCI based cards... It would be interesting to test 
some things like adjacent channel rejection and other stuff that is 
never spec'ed by the vendors.


Erik

John Scrivner wrote:
I have only seen this type of interference three times. Twice with 
Etherants and once with a Trango FOX. I have heard of other gear 
having similar issues from other WISPs. It usually effects 
over-the-air television or two-way radio communications located on the 
same tower as the data radio. I have heard of this type of 
interference a few times in regard to the RB532. I do not know if this 
particular board has a higher degree of this interference or if it is 
just a popular radio which has been identified to have similar issues. 
I do not have any RB532s in the field so I cannot speak to this one 
way or another for that particular product. I am guessing that some 
manufacturers have identified and resolved these issues prior to 
product release while others have not. From what I hear about the 
RB532 this is still an ongoing issue. I am also guessing that ferrite 
beads will at least diminish the level of noise for those who are 
dealing with this.

Scriv


Patrick Leary wrote:


Very cool troubleshooting trick, but I've never heard of the problem. Is
that wide spread John?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I 
have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. 
This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts 
as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to 
the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite 
beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low 
cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement 
in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads 
and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got 
ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a 
dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They 
snap together over


the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install.
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

 


I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with
Ethernet.

I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy.
  

Once I
 


moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away.  I put a 532
right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig
  

feed
 


and a 2.4 repeater there now...

-Original Message-
From

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Marlon K. Schafer


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and 
more muddied all of the time.


How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.


This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here,
but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is 
better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.


It's a very high cost.  Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip 
addys?  How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into 
trouble again?  There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with.




What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better 
customer isolation.


This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a wireless 
network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the 
scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that 
VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 
1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP.


With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan 
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like 
what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical 
every day.


No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and 
more people are getting into the business of providing internet service 
without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it 
were not bridged.  You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved 
more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other 
way around.  (there is one notable exception, but I think those results 
are a bit skewed for other reasons.)


Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, yes. 
Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to 
create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, even with VLANs, 
there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing.


solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically 
frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We 
don't even have a good option for routing at the


You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border 
router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range 
of public IP space is routed via that /30 address.  You are incorrect in 
your assumption that there is no routing used at all.


On the client side that's not correct.  We have ONE vlan port.  ALL of our 
fiber customers connect right in to that vlan.  That vlan hits a switch on 
our network, right beside one of the main wireless links.  No routing till 
it hits the customer's site.




customer other than doing it just because.  It's certainly not a 
requirement.


No...not a requirement.  It's just a more scalable solution.


There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on 
that network.




Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. 
Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe.  And with thousands


I'd disagree here, too.  But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do 
I know...


Grin.



The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network 
that can be run by less technical staff.  There is a cost savings there 
too.


It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are 
a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale 
possibilities.  But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a 
routed network.  I've been in this business for a long time.  I've built 
several networks to fairly large scale, including more than one to over 
1000 customer base.  One that I am now managing has over 3000 subs.  That 
network is using VLANs to provide some services.  It is using other 
technologies as well, but the network is routed.  You can't scale a 
bridged network.  It's just that simple.  As I said in another post...you 
don't have to believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best 
practice.


I'm just saying that it's far less important than it used to be.  Shoot, you 
know my network.  I've even gone so far as to split it into two halves with 
different upstreams.


And what did the average customer see when that happened?  Nothing.  Well 
the ones in Odessa got 10 megs of service to the ap rather than 1.5, but 
other than that, no noticable change.




--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Marlon,

How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties
up three IPs?  I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger
subnet dedicated to the sector.

We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one
public IP to each CPE router.  The radios get private space to conserve
public IP space as well as increase security.

IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons.  Two come
quickly to mind.

First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself
blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind
the same IP address.  Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one
public IP address.  No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your
service over one IP!  

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and 
more muddied all of the time.

How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network?  Lots.

 This is a big misconception.  I don't have time to go into it here,
 but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is 
 better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit.

It's a very high cost.  Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip 
addys?  How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into 
trouble again?  There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with.


What are the benefits of a routed network?  More control and better 
customer isolation.

 This is only one of the benefits.  Scalability especially in a wireless 
 network is a benefit.  Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the 
 scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that 
 VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 
 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP.

With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan 
switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like

what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical 
every day.

 No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and

 more people are getting into the business of providing internet service 
 without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it

 were not bridged.  You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved 
 more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other 
 way around.  (there is one notable exception, but I think those results 
 are a bit skewed for other reasons.)

 Is bridging easier?  Yes.  Is it common?  Among smaller providers, yes. 
 Is is scalable?  Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to 
 create the separation between the endpoints.  As I said, even with VLANs, 
 there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing.

solution.  They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically 
frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay.  No routing used at all.  We 
don't even have a good option for routing at the

 You don't think their networks are routed?   Look at your border 
 router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range 
 of public IP space is routed via that /30 address.  You are incorrect in 
 your assumption that there is no routing used at all.

On the client side that's not correct.  We have ONE vlan port.  ALL of our 
fiber customers connect right in to that vlan.  That vlan hits a switch on 
our network, right beside one of the main wireless links.  No routing till 
it hits the customer's site.


customer other than doing it just because.  It's certainly not a 
requirement.

 No...not a requirement.  It's just a more scalable solution.

There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on 
that network.


Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. 
Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe.  And with thousands

 I'd disagree here, too.  But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do

 I know...

Grin.


The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network 
that can be run by less technical staff.  There is a cost savings there 
too.

 It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are

 a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale 
 possibilities.  But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a 
 routed network.  I've been in this business for a long time.  I've built 
 several

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Tom DeReggi

In a lab yes. In my noise floor, real throughout  is no where close to that.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



SR9 on WAR at 5MHz is about 6Mb

Tom DeReggi wrote:
We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case 
speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel.
So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not 
need the flexibility and low cost of relaying.

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-02 Thread Tom DeReggi
First, we were talking 900 not 5.8.  VL isn't going to go through 2 miles of 
trees.  But your math is not wrong.
Anywhere one anticipates that they can get 25 subecribers from a cell site, 
VL is likely the preferred choice.
The problem is that there are many areas where 25 clients off an AP will 
never be an option.  Most places that we install StarOS, have no more than 3 
CPEs running off them.

Sometimes even only 1.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List 
wireless@wispa.org

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even
more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted
into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost
of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and
its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program
and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE
cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL
sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x
25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices
in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping
we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic
support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not
forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am
seriously missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just
kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



http://www.star-v3.com/store/

$262 ea in ten packs + roo.

Rick Smith wrote:

Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
 What kind of pricing per CPE
 I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each

for

a
rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
 Anyone see anything different ?
 R


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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi

Frank at Pasadena Networks has stock and good pricing on the SR9s.
And yes we are paying $350-$389 for the gear based on quantity.

Which is still the lowest cost 900SU solution so far, every thing included.

I don't believe anybody has broke the $300 barrier except on large quantity.
If they have on less than Qty10 orders, I'd like to know about it to.

The good news, is there has never been better 900 competition to drive the 
price down.


Teletronics is comming out with their new 900 product in just a few weeks. 
But pricing has not been released yet.
I'm really eagerly waiting to see what's delivered, since they are only 5 
miles away from me, and buying from them would be like having my own local 
warehouse :-)


Tranzeo, has a very strong product as well that has been shipping. I heard 
there is a lot of politics behind the Tranzeo product that came out, but 
regardless they offer a feature rich unit, all in one package.  Allowing 
consolidation of all the shipping costs to one vendor, instead of from all 
the different vendors necessary to get a unit made. I'm finding it rare that 
one vendor has stock of all the needed components at the same time, at the 
right price.


Trango and Canopy are going neck and neck on their CPE to drive the price 
down. But they are still more than I'd like to see on small quantity.


WaveIP, AirSpan, WaveRider, and there is one or two more that I'm missing.

I guess what I'm saying is its getting to be an exciting time for 900Mhz 
options.  And I'm hoping this competitive pressure will get 900 down to the 
price it needs to be to tackle served residential neighborhoods, like the 
5.8Ghz has.


We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case speed 
gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel.
So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not need 
the flexibility and low cost of relaying.


My understanding is that the Tranzeo's are dual Ethernet ready to POE feed 
your Trango backhaul, with no customization of cases.  But we have not tried 
it yet.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?

What kind of pricing per CPE

I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a
rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112

Anyone see anything different ?

R

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi
Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International 
Shipping charges (if in US).



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



http://www.star-v3.com/store/

$262 ea in ten packs + roo.

Rick Smith wrote:

Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
 What kind of pricing per CPE
 I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for 
a

rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
 Anyone see anything different ?
 R


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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International 
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Joe Laura
But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread cw

SR9 on WAR at 5MHz is about 6Mb

Tom DeReggi wrote:
We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case 
speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel.
So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not 
need the flexibility and low cost of relaying.

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread J. Vogel
Does that BreezeACCESS CPE do 5 mile *NECLoS shots? Usable links that is...
Serious question... I don't know. If it does, I will have to re-think
how I am doing
things

John

* Not Even Close to Line of Sight...

Patrick Leary wrote:
 Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
 the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
 the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
 mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
 mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
 legal.

 (donning flame suit now)

 - Patrick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

 Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
 International 
 Shipping charges (if in US).


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


   
 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
   
 for 
   
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

   
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE 
(under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things 
together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much 
smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. 
VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is 
also all fully FCC legal.


This hardly compares to having a router at the CPE.  While it is a 
good price, it is not a fair comparison.



(donning flame suit now)


'tis alright, Patrick.  No flames here.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread cw
I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have that 
stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x 2Mb? 
What's the actual throughput? - cw


Patrick Leary wrote:

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International 

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith

We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going
in the house except for power.  Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4
antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it.

Can't do that with Alvarion.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even
more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted
into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost
of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and
its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program
and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE
cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL
sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x
25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices
in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping
we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic
support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not
forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am
seriously missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just
kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've
now built
a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.  But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support,
FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no
user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously
missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112  Anyone see anything 
 different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
The AlvarionCOMNET CPE does 3mbps net and 2mbps up. It can be upgraded
via software if needed, but you only would do that once you have a
client willing to pay for the additional capacity. You can take it to
6mbps down and 4mbps up or to the full CPE that can deliver over 30mbps
net. I appreciate the not liking the limiting thing, but this is about
enabling a pay as you need model that makes residential a reality with
premium quality 5GHz gear that can take you as upstream as you could
want in terms of services, network value, OPEX benefits (ask guys like
Marty Dougherty about the real dollar OPEX benefits, he was a big
802.11b user, then a big Trango user before switching to BreezeACCESS
VL). In any event, even Mikrotik charges licenses for user counts and
the hardware is no different either, right?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of cw
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have
that 
stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x
2Mb? 
What's the actual throughput? - cw

Patrick Leary wrote:
 Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
 the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together
so
 the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
 mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
 mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
 legal.
 
 (donning flame suit now)
 
 - Patrick
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
 
 Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
 International 
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
As a matter of fact you could and it's something we've had for years and
it is a warranted item. That's be a CX deployment using VLDS.11. The
range of that DS.11 would probably cover the whole neighborhood (high
power and very high sensitivity), but the issue would be the ability of
the users laptops to connect reach up to the DS.11 AP. Also, such a
model would not be cheap enough to do at every house (but why do you
want to put an AP at every house?). We actually just released a new CX
that can mate together any set of frequencies we sell in unlicensed.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going
in the house except for power.  Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4
antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it.

Can't do that with Alvarion.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely
or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer
advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built
a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even
more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of
the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its
clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program
and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost
with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In
that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would
be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping
we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic
support,
FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget
no
user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am
seriously
missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just
kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112  Anyone see anything 
 different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:


reduced truck roll,


Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).


NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.



--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.  They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support
for.   

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 reduced truck roll,

Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.


-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.   

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis
Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the 
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they 
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless 
network for the same reasons.


We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area, 
that would price me out of the market.




We Patrick Leary wrote:


Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 


reduced truck roll,
   



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).


NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.



 



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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis

Equity value is only important to those who wish to build and sell

Those of us who just wish to make a living don't care so much about 
re-sale value.  We are more interested in income.


Patrick Leary wrote:


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.

Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  


Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.


I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.   


I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Joe Laura
Patrick, How much are your A/P's going for in the 5.8 range?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:00 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the 
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they 
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless 
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing
goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

  

reduced truck roll,



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.


  


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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Dylan Oliver

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)



Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.


I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 

SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator 
and it blew them away.)


Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. 
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.


This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out 
to be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone 
breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a 
difference between operating a system that is not certified within 
legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal 
power limits.  The primary difference is that one of these (you get 
to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than 
the other.


On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the 
courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the 
subject.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about
your
 network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
 but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.
An
 Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
 fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and
this
 is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.
That's
 just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
 roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed
him
 in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his
opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch
a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell
prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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[WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-11-30 Thread Rick Smith
Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
 
What kind of pricing per CPE
 
I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a
rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
 
Anyone see anything different ?
 
R

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-11-30 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Rick Smith wrote:


Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?

What kind of pricing per CPE

I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each 
for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112


Anyone see anything different ?


While I am not purchasing these today (being that I am no longer an 
ISP), I can't tell you where you can purchase them, but I'd expect 
$300-400 for a complete system.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-11-30 Thread cw

http://www.star-v3.com/store/

$262 ea in ten packs + roo.

Rick Smith wrote:

Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
 
What kind of pricing per CPE
 
I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a

rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
 
Anyone see anything different ?
 
R



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