subject:"\[WISPA\] Mimosa Networks New product released"

Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-22 Thread Matt Jenkins

t;>>>> > Indigo Wireless
>>>>> > +1 (570) 723-7312 
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 8/5/14, 4:09 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>> >> What are you "what"ing?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -
>>>>> >> Mike Hammett
>>>>> >> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> >> http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> >> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" >>>> <mailto:mhop...@indigowireless.com>>
>>>>> >> *To: *"WISPA General List" >>>> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>>
>>>>> >> *Sent: *Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:08:12 PM
>>>>> >> *Subject: *Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Wait... whut?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Matt Hoppes
>>>>> >> Director of Information Technology
>>>>> >> Indigo Wireless
>>>>> >> +1 (570) 723-7312 
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On 8/5/14, 3:36 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>>>>> >>> Jamie,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> We're incredibly excited by your announcement, and
>>>>> eagerly await PtMP ;)
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Josh Reynolds, CIO
>>>>> >>> SPITwSPOTS
>>>>> >>> www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com/>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On 08/05/2014 11:30 AM, Jaime Fink wrote:
>>>>> >>>> 4 for the same channel is our general recommendation
>>>>> for the
>>>>> >>>> integrated antenna, angles will vary based on link
>>>>> power/distances,
>>>>> >>>> worst case is about 85 +/- 5 degrees, if we're going
>>>>> for max
>>>>> >> performance.
>>>>> >>>> That doesn't limit colocation on the tower at 4, that
>>>>> number can go up
>>>>> >>>> of course in different channels, and channel widths.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> We're finishing off a "colocation planner" in our
>>>>> cloud tools that
>>>>> >>>> automates those answers for you based on your radio
>>>>> location link
>>>>> >>>> plans, coming soon!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Cheers,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Jaime
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Aug 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, "Mike Hammett"
>>>>> mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net>
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net
>>>>> <mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Thanks a bunch!
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> So then is there a hard limit of 4 radios per
>>>>> location or is that
>>>>> >>>>> just best you could do with the integrated antenna
>>>>> model?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-11 Thread Jaime Fink

Brough,

That’s correct, it’s absolutely NOT spatial diversity 4 stream MIMO (even 
though the chip can do this for other applications with more antennas). I 
typically refer to this “dual link” technology as frequency diversity. It is 
two sets of 2 streams that are channel separated but with a single coordinated 
MIMO baseband processor, sharing a common dual polarization antenna.

The direct benefits are:

1. Lower Power: Single baseband MIMO processor handling the 4 streams of 
processing, so it’s significantly less max power @ 20 Watt versus power hungry 
FPGAs or if we were to implement multiple discrete 2x2 chips
2. Load balancing: Dynamic load balancing of traffic across both channel sets 
so as interference/DFS hits one of the channel sets there’s only momentary 
reduction of bandwidth until a channel move can happen (and constant background 
spectrum analysis is pre-scanning for cleanest spectrum that has not been 
manually excluded by the user)
3. Improved interference immunity: It’s easier to find two smaller chunks of 
spectrum than one big one, and as you mentioned it is more robust with less 
probability of being hit by interference and losing the entire link in 2 x 20 
MHz or 2 x 40 MHz modes, versus if it’s one larger single 80 MHz channel width.

Cheers!

Jaime Fink • Mimosa • Chief Product Officer
300 Orchard City Dr Ste 100 • Campbell • CA 95008 • 
www.mimosa.co

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by 
others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or 
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email and delete all copies of this message.


On Aug 11, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Brough Turner 
mailto:broughtur...@gmail.com>> wrote:


 On 8/5/14 6:38 PM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:

On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Gino Villarini 
mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
http://www.mimosa.co/home/b5-page.html

How to operate an outdoor radio with 4 spatial streams with dual-polarized 
antennas ? It seems I'm missing something...

Rubens

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Rubens,

It appears they get their four independent streams using two polarities (H&V) 
of each of two channels (i.e. two different frequency bands).  That should 
work, assuming correct channel state information (CSI) is fedback for each 
separate stream. Apparently Mimosa is using the Quantenna chips which are 
claimed to do just that, so this is very plausible (and very impressive!).  Of 
course, this does mean finding more 5 GHz spectrum, but running two separate 40 
MHz radios with MIMO is a more robust way to use 80 MHz of 5 GHz spectrum than 
running an 80 MHz channel directly.
--

Thanks,

Brough



Brough Turner

netBlazr Inc. – Free your Broadband!

Mobile:  617-285-0433   Skype:  brough

netBlazr Inc. | 
Google+ | 
Twitter | 
LinkedIn | 
Facebook | 
Blog | Personal 
website


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Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-11 Thread Rubens Kuhl

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Brough Turner 
wrote:

>On 8/5/14 6:38 PM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
>   On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Gino Villarini 
> wrote:
>
>>   http://www.mimosa.co/home/b5-page.html
>>
>>How to operate an outdoor radio with 4 spatial streams with
> dual-polarized antennas ? It seems I'm missing something...
>
>  Rubens
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing 
> listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>  Rubens,
>
> It appears they get their four independent streams using two polarities
> (H&V) of each of two channels (i.e. two different frequency bands).  That
> should work, assuming correct channel state information (CSI) is fedback
> for each separate stream. Apparently Mimosa is using the Quantenna chips
> which are claimed to do just that, so this is very plausible (and very
> impressive!).  Of course, this does mean finding more 5 GHz spectrum, but
> running two separate 40 MHz radios with MIMO is a more robust way to use 80
> MHz of 5 GHz spectrum than running an 80 MHz channel directly.
>
>
That's a nice way to do outdoor wireless, but that's not 4 spatial streams.
To be spatial streams it needs to be in the "geometry" domain, not in the
frequency domain or in the time domain. So I would not call it 4x4 MIMO.


Rubens
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Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-11 Thread Brough Turner

 On 8/5/14 6:38 PM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:

On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:

http://www.mimosa.co/home/b5-page.html

How to operate an outdoor radio with 4 spatial streams with
dual-polarized antennas ? It seems I'm missing something...

Rubens
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Rubens,

It appears they get their four independent streams using two polarities
(H&V) of each of two channels (i.e. two different frequency bands). 
That should work, assuming correct channel state information (CSI) is
fedback for each separate stream. Apparently Mimosa is using the
Quantenna chips which are claimed to do just that, so this is very
plausible (and very impressive!).  Of course, this does mean finding
more 5 GHz spectrum, but running two separate 40 MHz radios with MIMO is
a more robust way to use 80 MHz of 5 GHz spectrum than running an 80 MHz
channel directly.
-- 

Thanks,

Brough

 

Brough Turner

netBlazr Inc. -- Free your Broadband!

Mobile:  617-285-0433   Skype:  brough

netBlazr Inc. | Google+
 | Twitter
 | LinkedIn
 | Facebook
 | Blog
 | Personal website
 

 

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Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-05 Thread Rubens Kuhl

On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Gino Villarini  wrote:

>   http://www.mimosa.co/home/b5-page.html
>
>
How to operate an outdoor radio with 4 spatial streams with dual-polarized
antennas ? It seems I'm missing something...


Rubens
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Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-05 Thread Patrick Leary

...MU-MIMO = multiuser MIMO, not multiuse MIMO...excuse the typo

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

Congratulation Jaime. The B5 products look to be excellent, and it is good to 
see WISPA discussions about advanced techniques like 4x MIMO spatial 
multiplexing and MU-MIMO. Too often the focus is more spectrum, not about how 
to leverage technology to use much more efficiently what spectrum there is.

For definition purposes:

MU-MIMO (multiuse MIMO) sends multiple streams to different customers in the 
same band simultaneously. It doubles capacity using the same channel size and 
there's not downside compared with the capacity gain.

You want it, especially where your spectrum is busy.

Patrick Leary
M 727.501.3735
[cid:image001.png@01CFB0D9.868D6940]<http://mkt2.us/TelrdNet>

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org<mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org> 
[mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jaime Fink
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

Josh,

TDMA modes (whether collocated or not) are configurable in window size with 
between 2, 4 or 8 ms latencies depending on your traffic profile preferences.

You can't really use a second chip for monitoring in backhaul/parabolic 
products if it's not connected up to the primary antenna or so the FCC advised, 
so there's not really an easy mode.

I can't comment in specifics on PTMP products, but technology wise MU-MIMO and 
Massive MIMO can benefit from radically different antenna designs to pack the 
antennas tightly and coordinate streams/beamforming to get the best multi-user 
efficiencies - or shielding with collocation in mind.

Switched antenna beam steering and dual-polarization designs in APs no longer 
make a lot of sense when you go beyond a 2 stream world and move into a Massive 
MIMO and MU-MIMO world where spatial/directional multiplexing are the name of 
the game to create unique beamforms.

Jaime

On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Josh Reynolds 
mailto:j...@spitwspots.com>> wrote:

Constant spectral analysis was something I asked UBNT about awhile back for 
AirOS and UniFi... Cisco does something similar. I guess in the "easy method" 
it would doubles the chip cost in some cases, but it's very valuable to have 
this info for WISPs and people deploying high-density solutions. The ability to 
have the same data on the *remote* side of the connection is just as important 
as well, especially when it comes to helping identify customer issues (in the 
case of PtMP).

What kind of latency hit are we talking about in a 4 way 90deg PtP backhaul 
setup? Also, will you be developing your own shielded antennas for PtMP?

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com/>
On 08/05/2014 12:43 PM, Jaime Fink wrote:
+1. I swear it only took us a month to implement your great idea ;)  Alas good 
ideas do take time.

The trick Josh that we found was that it's incredibly difficult to change 
channels fast enough and settle on the usual Wi-Fi chips which have limited 
driver access, often taking over 10 milliseconds of time to make the change.

This problem also had to be solved to handle constant spectrum analysis as well 
without service impact, down to 150 microseconds switching time to settle now.

Jaime

On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Josh Reynolds 
mailto:j...@spitwspots.com>> wrote:

Funny thing is, Mimosa was already hard at work on an idea I brainstormed about 
in July :)
http://community.ubnt.com/t5/The-Lounge/Brainstorming-Maximizing-frequency-capacity-radio-system/m-p/899722#M32941

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com/>
On 08/05/2014 12:20 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
For some reason they tried to keep this whole company and product under wraps 
more than everything else.  Dunno why, it's not like one couldn't figure it out 
or pick it up from the intended secrecy.

At least it worked for one person =P

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Josh Reynolds 
mailto:j...@spitwspots.com>> wrote:
You're... out of the loop.

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com/>
On 08/05/2014 12:09 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> The PtMP.
>
>
> Matt Hoppes
> Director of Information Technology
> Indigo Wireless
> +1 (570) 723-7312
>
> On 8/5/14, 4:09 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> What are you "what"ing?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com<http://www.ics-il.co

Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-05 Thread Adair Winter

That should be interesting...


On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

>  I agree
>
> FWIW, I'm working on a comparison chart of AF5 vs BS-160 right now :P
>
>
>  Josh Reynolds, CIO
> SPITwSPOTS
> www.spitwspots.com
>  On 08/05/2014 01:55 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> *nods* I beat on my vendors regularly for support of such things.  ;-)
>
> We're likely to get much further doing this sort of thing than whatever we
> get at the FCC.
>
> Cost effective platforms + advanced antenna\radio technologies are going
> to be the winner.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>  <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>
>  --
> *From: *"Patrick Leary" 
> 
> *To: *"WISPA General List"  
> *Sent: *Tuesday, August 5, 2014 4:53:22 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released
>
>  Congratulation Jaime. The B5 products look to be excellent, and it is
> good to see WISPA discussions about advanced techniques like 4x MIMO
> spatial multiplexing and MU-MIMO. Too often the focus is more spectrum, not
> about how to leverage technology to use much more efficiently what spectrum
> there is.
>
>
>
> For definition purposes:
>
>
>
> MU-MIMO (multiuse MIMO) sends multiple streams to different customers in
> the same band simultaneously. It doubles capacity using the same channel
> size and there's not downside compared with the capacity gain.
>
>
>
> You want it, especially where your spectrum is busy.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Patrick Leary*
>
> *M* 727.501.3735
>
> <http://mkt2.us/TelrdNet>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Jaime Fink
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:34 PM
> *To:* WISPA General List
> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released
>
>
>
> Josh,
>
>
>
> TDMA modes (whether collocated or not) are configurable in window size
> with between 2, 4 or 8 ms latencies depending on your traffic profile
> preferences.
>
>
>
> You can’t really use a second chip for monitoring in backhaul/parabolic
> products if it’s not connected up to the primary antenna or so the FCC
> advised, so there’s not really an easy mode.
>
>
>
> I can’t comment in specifics on PTMP products, but technology wise MU-MIMO
> and Massive MIMO can benefit from radically different antenna designs to
> pack the antennas tightly and coordinate streams/beamforming to get the
> best multi-user efficiencies - or shielding with collocation in mind.
>
>
>
> Switched antenna beam steering and dual-polarization designs in APs no
> longer make a lot of sense when you go beyond a 2 stream world and move
> into a Massive MIMO and MU-MIMO world where spatial/directional
> multiplexing are the name of the game to create unique beamforms.
>
>
>
> Jaime
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
>
>
>   Constant spectral analysis was something I asked UBNT about awhile back
> for AirOS and UniFi... Cisco does something similar. I guess in the "easy
> method" it would doubles the chip cost in some cases, but it's very
> valuable to have this info for WISPs and people deploying high-density
> solutions. The ability to have the same data on the *remote* side of the
> connection is just as important as well, especially when it comes to
> helping identify customer issues (in the case of PtMP).
>
> What kind of latency hit are we talking about in a 4 way 90deg PtP
> backhaul setup? Also, will you be developing your own shielded antennas for
> PtMP?
>
> Josh Reynolds, CIO
> SPITwSPOTS
> www.spitwspots.com
>
> On 08/05/2014 12:43 PM, Jaime Fink wrote:
>
> +1. I swear it only took us a month to implement your great idea ;)  Alas
> good ideas do take time.
>
>
>
> The trick Josh that we found was that it’s incredibly difficult to change
> channels fast enough and settle on the usual Wi-Fi chips which have limited
> driver access, often taking over 10 milliseconds of time to make the
> change.
>
>
>
> This problem also had to be solved to handle constant spectrum analysis as
> well without service impact, down to 150 microseconds switching time to
> settle now.
>
>
>
> Jaime
>
>
>
> On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
>
>
>   Funny thing

Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

2014-08-05 Thread Josh Reynolds

I agree

FWIW, I'm working on a comparison chart of AF5 vs BS-160 right now :P

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com

On 08/05/2014 01:55 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

*nods* I beat on my vendors regularly for support of such things. ;-)

We're likely to get much further doing this sort of thing than
whatever we get at the FCC.

Cost effective platforms + advanced antenna\radio technologies are
going to be the winner.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>

*From: *"Patrick Leary"
*To: *"WISPA General List"
*Sent: *Tuesday, August 5, 2014 4:53:22 PM
*Subject: *Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

Congratulation Jaime. The B5 products look to be excellent, and it is
good to see WISPA discussions about advanced techniques like 4x MIMO
spatial multiplexing and MU-MIMO. Too often the focus is more
spectrum, not about how to leverage technology to use much more
efficiently what spectrum there is.

For definition purposes:

MU-MIMO (multiuse MIMO) sends multiple streams to different customers
in the same band simultaneously. It doubles capacity using the same
channel size and there's not downside compared with the capacity gain.

You want it, especially where your spectrum is busy.

*Patrick Leary*

***M*727.501.3735

<http://mkt2.us/TelrdNet>

*From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
*On Behalf Of *Jaime Fink

*Sent:* Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:34 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Mimosa Networks New product released

Josh,

TDMA modes (whether collocated or not) are configurable in window size
with between 2, 4 or 8 ms latencies depending on your traffic profile
preferences.

You can’t really use a second chip for monitoring in
backhaul/parabolic products if it’s not connected up to the primary
antenna or so the FCC advised, so there’s not really an easy mode.

I can’t comment in specifics on PTMP products, but technology wise
MU-MIMO and Massive MIMO can benefit from radically different antenna
designs to pack the antennas tightly and coordinate
streams/beamforming to get the best multi-user efficiencies - or
shielding with collocation in mind.

Switched antenna beam steering and dual-polarization designs in APs no
longer make a lot of sense when you go beyond a 2 stream world and
move into a Massive MIMO and MU-MIMO world where spatial/directional
multiplexing are the name of the game to create unique beamforms.

Jaime

On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Josh Reynolds <mailto:j...@spitwspots.com>> wrote:

Constant spectral analysis was something I asked UBNT about awhile
back for AirOS and UniFi... Cisco does something similar. I guess in
the "easy method" it would doubles the chip cost in some cases, but
it's very valuable to have this info for WISPs and people deploying
high-density solutions. The ability to have the same data on the
*remote* side of the connection is just as important as well,
especially when it comes to helping identify customer issues (in the
case of PtMP).

What kind of latency hit are we talking about in a 4 way 90deg PtP
backhaul setup? Also, will you be developing your own shielded
antennas for PtMP?

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com/>

On 08/05/2014 12:43 PM, Jaime Fink wrote:

+1. I swear it only took us a month to implement your great idea
;) Alas good ideas do take time.

The trick Josh that we found was that it’s incredibly difficult to
change channels fast enough and settle on the usual Wi-Fi chips
which have limited driver access, often taking over 10
milliseconds of time to make the change.

This problem also had to be solved to handle constant spectrum
analysis as well without service impact, down to 150 microseconds
switching time to settle now.

Jaime

On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Josh Reynolds mailto:j...@spitwspots.com>> wrote:

Funny thing is, Mimosa was already hard at work on an idea I
brainstormed about in July :)

http://community.ubnt.com/t5/The-Lounge/Brainstorming-Maximizing-frequency-capacity-radio-system/m-p/899722#M32941

Josh Reynolds, CIO
SPITwSPOTS
www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com/>

On 08/05/2014 12:20 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

For some reason they tried to keep this whole company and
product under wraps more than everything else. Dunno why,
it's not like one couldn't figure it out or pick it up from
the intended secrecy.

At least it worked for one person =P

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