Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. David Smith Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security clearance, citizen. ]] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
On Thu, 17 May 2007, Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay Not sure I'd go that far. I think email sigs are acceptable, regardless of the content or poster. I can tell you that I have a single signature file that I use and if it were not allowed on this (or some other) list, the I would just go to the trouble to not post on that list. There is value to the list members in the input of various people, regardless of their status with WISPA. However, I think the problem (in the case of what started this) was a little different. Personally, I think anything should be allowed in an email sig. I think answering questions is (and should be) allowed, even if the answer promotes a product you sell. I am a vendor member of WISPA and I sell consulting services as well as technical training for the Mikrotik RouterOS. I have been on this list since it's creation. I have been a vendor member for only a month or two. I have posted MANY answers to questions on this list, some of which were borderline advertisements. I have, also, paid for actual advertisements. If you look back through the archives, you'll see that my posts (most of them) have not been self promoting, however, I have gained MUCH value from having participated in this, and many other, lists. I think the problem that started this thread (and the original one) should have been handled offlist. I DO think, however, that blatant advertising, which WAS happening, should be kept to a minimum. I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to decide what is and is not appropriate. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
I think the big problem here is that Dee almost never posts unless he's got something to sell folks. Naturally, people have to be able to talk about what they know. And when a person is selling a product he'd better know that better than anyone else eh? grin WISPA needs funds to accomplish anything though. And the vendor members pay 4x what the wisp members do for membership. With that comes some marketing rights and protections. Back in the day I spent quite a bit of time talking to Chris Night (anyone else remember Sparky of the isp-lists???) about how to run a good list. The most important thing is to make sure that people are on it and are there because of a perceived value to themselves. This means that folks need information, from whoever is giving it. It also needs financial support. When you start billing for ad content, those paying for it expect, and deserve, that those not paying for content won't be allowed to post ads. Especially not blatant ones. At the risk of offending folks (and none intended) I'll use Patrick and Dee as examples. Both are good guys, care about the industry, are deeply committed to what they do etc. Patrick is a paid member, Dee's not. Patrick answers general questions about issues whether he's got something to sell or not. Dee often tells people to contact him for a solution but doesn't help on list. See the difference? If you have solutions to problems, you have to offer them up, even if it doesn't benefit you directly. In this way you become a vital part of the success of the list. Personally I think one also has much more credibility. I don't usually read posts from anyone that's always hocking a product vs. giving away what he knows so that the rest of us can benefit from it. And no, I don't fall for the trick that friends use to get each other's names or products out there all of the time. I hope that Dee does join as a vendor member. I think that would be great. I also hope that Frank (and the other vendor members) can let this water run off his back. I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have more responsibilities to them. laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. David Smith Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security clearance, citizen. ]] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
I think that the standard e-mail signature should be allowed for any member. It is the blaent advertising that should not be allowed. Dennis On 5/17/07, Zack Kneisley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. That's what I was trying to get through as well, either enforcement of the rules or non-enforcement. Just make it equal across the board for those who do or do not pay certain dues. Zack On 5/17/07, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have more responsibilities to them. laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. David Smith Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security clearance, citizen. ]] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant www.mikrotikconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Point well taken, I think I was trying to make the point that if Dee looked as if he was blatantly advertising the product by putting that service in their signature, then that *should* apply to everyone, don't you agree? I don't have a problem one way or another, I just want the rules to apply to everyone equally. I don't mind being able to advertise in my signature either. Zack Giga-Data, LLC The company that sells everything, consultant of all services, cheaper than anyone. Phone: (740)432-3130 (see what I mean) :-) On 5/17/07, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2007, Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay Not sure I'd go that far. I think email sigs are acceptable, regardless of the content or poster. I can tell you that I have a single signature file that I use and if it were not allowed on this (or some other) list, the I would just go to the trouble to not post on that list. There is value to the list members in the input of various people, regardless of their status with WISPA. However, I think the problem (in the case of what started this) was a little different. Personally, I think anything should be allowed in an email sig. I think answering questions is (and should be) allowed, even if the answer promotes a product you sell. I am a vendor member of WISPA and I sell consulting services as well as technical training for the Mikrotik RouterOS. I have been on this list since it's creation. I have been a vendor member for only a month or two. I have posted MANY answers to questions on this list, some of which were borderline advertisements. I have, also, paid for actual advertisements. If you look back through the archives, you'll see that my posts (most of them) have not been self promoting, however, I have gained MUCH value from having participated in this, and many other, lists. I think the problem that started this thread (and the original one) should have been handled offlist. I DO think, however, that blatant advertising, which WAS happening, should be kept to a minimum. I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to decide what is and is not appropriate. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Zack Kneisley wrote:
I don't have a problem one way or another, I just want the rules to
apply to
everyone equally. I don't mind being able to advertise in my signature
either.
I think that's the issue, though - where is the line between normal
harmless customary stuff and blatant self-promotion?
Also, that whole thing about I've used a lot of products for X and
really truly believe Y is the best X there is, and I do coincidentally
sell or service Y but that's beside the point, aka the Butch Evans
Clause. :)
David Smith
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Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
WISPA has responsibilities to the Vendor members? Yikes. Isn't WISPA responsible to the Members and Industry first? I've resisted joining as a Vendor because I disagree with the commercial nature of it all. It is not the money, but rather the principle. When WISPA was being formed, I contributed about $2,000 in direct cash and Server Licenses to induce others to pay up, yet I have never been a member, let alone a FOUNDING MEMBER as some can claim. I got real discouraged to be throwing my weight behind the whole things and the VERY FIRST act of WISPA was to allow Charles to act as if it were his private list for marketing. Why did they do that? Because Charles gave them some freebies and support. WISPA has to decide if it is an Organization that is for Vendors to market to members or is it an Organization for the Industry to represent the needs of the Industry to Government, and other regulatory bodies. This period before elections is a good time have those discussions and see where all the proposed board members sit on the various issues. I for one would support a strict no self promotion policy in ANY email. Keep it to PAID ads (if you need them at all) and limit the number of those that can be distributed. A Vendor should be happy to support the Industry and should not expect a return or special privilege. Lest people jump on me for self promotion, I'll point out that I always try and point people to our Support Forums. This list should NOT become a free support arm for ANY Vendor too lazy or incompetent to set up their own support lines. This list should be for issues that affect the Industry. Your troubles with routing or bridging or particular brand of equipment, although important to you at the time, have very little to do with the Industry in general. There are other lists for that and also Vendors should have their own solutions to help you. So, this is what my day looks like. Now I'll get back to work. We're building 4 more towers this year and I get to run the Bobcat today. It'll be fun after all. Lonnie On 5/17/07, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the big problem here is that Dee almost never posts unless he's got something to sell folks. Naturally, people have to be able to talk about what they know. And when a person is selling a product he'd better know that better than anyone else eh? grin WISPA needs funds to accomplish anything though. And the vendor members pay 4x what the wisp members do for membership. With that comes some marketing rights and protections. Back in the day I spent quite a bit of time talking to Chris Night (anyone else remember Sparky of the isp-lists???) about how to run a good list. The most important thing is to make sure that people are on it and are there because of a perceived value to themselves. This means that folks need information, from whoever is giving it. It also needs financial support. When you start billing for ad content, those paying for it expect, and deserve, that those not paying for content won't be allowed to post ads. Especially not blatant ones. At the risk of offending folks (and none intended) I'll use Patrick and Dee as examples. Both are good guys, care about the industry, are deeply committed to what they do etc. Patrick is a paid member, Dee's not. Patrick answers general questions about issues whether he's got something to sell or not. Dee often tells people to contact him for a solution but doesn't help on list. See the difference? If you have solutions to problems, you have to offer them up, even if it doesn't benefit you directly. In this way you become a vital part of the success of the list. Personally I think one also has much more credibility. I don't usually read posts from anyone that's always hocking a product vs. giving away what he knows so that the rest of us can benefit from it. And no, I don't fall for the trick that friends use to get each other's names or products out there all of the time. I hope that Dee does join as a vendor member. I think that would be great. I also hope that Frank (and the other vendor members) can let this water run off his back. I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have more responsibilities to them. laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay
RE: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to decide what is and is not appropriate. That would be me! You don't want my job? Come on Butch, where is your sense of spirit? Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Zack, It is totallly impractical to create and have to (somehow) manage different email files for different lists, responses to clients, etc. One email file is the only practical way to go. jack Zack Kneisley wrote: On 5/17/07, David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. As I put it, I think there should be a limit of what should be included in a signature due to the fact that it could and is inevitably advertising your company. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. I agree What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? Wispa vendor based advertising is, or should be limited to the specific advertisement only based posts that that vendor has paid for. What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? Good question, this is a fuzzy type of situation, and the person is being dishonest in posting their views because it is biased. they should disclose this info. Most companies do when they report on a financial partner. Ever watch the evening news when they report on a parent company? They purposely disclose this information. What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? Dishonest and shoud be treated so. What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? Disclose it then. What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? Not quite sure what you mean. There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Rules http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 5) No selling or self promotion allowed. Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) Not talking about a booth, talking about direct advertisement in a community post. If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. No, just no self promotion that you can buy this product through me in a general post. this doesn't mean you can't say this product is good because it does this and this It is all a little fuzzy, but I think signatures should be limited to a single link to their site, if not, the majority of the list is breaking the rules. If you don't agree, then maybe the rules need to be changed, or enforced differently. David Smith Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security clearance, citizen. ]] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
See inline comments Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler WISPA has responsibilities to the Vendor members? Yikes. Isn't WISPA responsible to the Members and Industry first? [Mac says:] We do have responsibilities to the paid vendors since their membership is a major form of financial support that enables/empowers us as an organization to accomplish the tasks we have before us. If we had no vendor members we wouldn't have very much capital to work with. Vendor members are a very important to us. I think that by treating our vendor members well we are putting our general membership and the industry first. The By-Laws are in place for a reason and that is to guide this organization, protect this organization and ultimately put the wireless operator in the driver's seat. I've resisted joining as a Vendor because I disagree with the commercial nature of it all. It is not the money, but rather the principle. When WISPA was being formed, I contributed about $2,000 in direct cash and Server Licenses to induce others to pay up, yet I have never been a member, let alone a FOUNDING MEMBER as some can claim. [Mac says:] Lonnie - I remember how enthused you were when we first started organizing WISPA. I don't understand what you mean by the commercial nature of it all. The only commercial part of WISPA is a paid vendor membership and I guess the collection of dues from wireless operators. How else would we ever collect enough revenue to do anything? I understand Love is free, but I understand you will love in the dark without money. I got real discouraged to be throwing my weight behind the whole things and the VERY FIRST act of WISPA was to allow Charles to act as if it were his private list for marketing. Why did they do that? Because Charles gave them some freebies and support. [Mac says:] NO - that's not even close to right and I think you know that. I am sorry if you got your feelings hurt, but if memory serves me - we all had a hand and input for the first WINOG. I don't know about anyone else, but I was thinking that this might be something for WISPA. A trade show put on by WISPA in the future. It didn't take any of us very long to realize that it was not an event that WISPA could do at the time seeing as how we didn't even have members yet - - although we did use it to get together and where the first dues (ever) were collected. I - like you and several others donated money way before there was even a due structure in place and way before WINOG 1. I didn't expect anything out of it and the only thing I wanted was to see WISPA get a start and once again - - what can you do without money? NO MONEY - NO LAWYER - - NO LAWYER - - NO BY-LAWS - - NO BY LAWS - - NO ORGANIZATION (non profit legal and all!) I THINK YOU OUGHT TO BE A VENDOR MEMBER and I think you need to be recognized as a vendor who stepped up to the plate in the EARLY days of forming up this organization with no expectation of special privileges - - just a good heart and concern for the industry! WISPA has to decide if it is an Organization that is for Vendors to market to members or is it an Organization for the Industry to represent the needs of the Industry to Government, and other Regulatory bodies. [Mac says:] That is not an issue! We aren't a money making company and I know you know this.. Will you support WISPA 100% in all of its financial dealings? I don't think you or anyone else on this list has pockets that deep. Do you think that we have no need of staff, a paid lobbyist, electricity, a building of our own in DC, Should we never have a paid President whose whole job is to lead this organization thus may stand a chance in leading the WHOLE INDUSTRY??? Trying to run WISPA (much less accomplish something) without money would be like you trying to run your business with no money! No Money - No business! This period before elections is a good time have those discussions and see where all the proposed board members sit on the various issues. [Mac says:] I agree 100% - - you see where I am standing eh? Lol I for one would support a strict no self promotion policy in ANY email. Keep it to PAID ads (if you need them at all) and limit the number of those that can be distributed. A Vendor should be happy to support the Industry and should not expect a return or special privilege. [Mac says:] I guess this will be one of those things decided by the current board. I have no trouble with email signatures as long as there are no direct advertisements attached to them. I think mine is OK, but then some of you may not due to the fact it has my VoIP companies web site attached. See below sig: Mac Dearman Maximum Access, LLC. Rayville, La. www.inetsouth.com www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief) www.mac-tel.us (VoIP sales) 318.728.8600 318.728.9600 (I ain't through - read on) Lest people jump on me for self promotion, I'll point out that I always try and point people to
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Jack, Actually, that is exactly what I do, you will notice the gmail address? I have a total of seven gmail addresses that I use. Some reply with a signature, some don't. I also use Outlook that has 4 pop accounts that it checks. Two accounts it checks send the same signature one that doesn't and another that sends an entirely different signature. This is why my signature, or lack thereof, is not present when I reply to this list. I don't self promote, because the rules say I shouldn't. This method is actually the most efficient, most organized, and the easiest way to sort, search, respond and recall messages that I have ever had in place in the past 18 years of using the internet. Gopher was alot simpler back then hu? lol I don't really have a preference of a sig or no sig or the use of more than One email file. I just would like clarification of what can or cannot be done accordance with this lists rules. Zack On 5/17/07, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zack, It is totallly impractical to create and have to (somehow) manage different email files for different lists, responses to clients, etc. One email file is the only practical way to go. jack Zack Kneisley wrote: On 5/17/07, David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. As I put it, I think there should be a limit of what should be included in a signature due to the fact that it could and is inevitably advertising your company. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. I agree What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? Wispa vendor based advertising is, or should be limited to the specific advertisement only based posts that that vendor has paid for. What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? Good question, this is a fuzzy type of situation, and the person is being dishonest in posting their views because it is biased. they should disclose this info. Most companies do when they report on a financial partner. Ever watch the evening news when they report on a parent company? They purposely disclose this information. What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? Dishonest and shoud be treated so. What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? Disclose it then. What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? Not quite sure what you mean. There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Rules http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 5) No selling or self promotion allowed. Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) Not talking about a booth, talking about direct advertisement in a community post. If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. No, just no self promotion that you can buy this product through me in a general post. this doesn't mean you can't say this product is good because it does this and this It is all a little fuzzy, but I think signatures should be limited to a single link to their site, if not, the majority of the list is breaking the rules. If you don't agree, then maybe the rules need to be changed, or enforced differently. David Smith Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security clearance, citizen. ]] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Zack, I salute you for your integrity and your ability to manage 11 email accounts. I, on the other hand, in my waking hours between 6 AM and 2 AM barely have the ability to keep up with email on a single Thunderbird email account. For me, practicality wins the day and I'll continue to try and manage and use one main email account that appends one sig file. I do agree that clarification of the rules is important long as we don't get into so much hairsplitting that life becomes totally impractical (well, not any more impractical than it already is anyway) :) Best Regards, jack Zack Kneisley wrote: Jack, Actually, that is exactly what I do, you will notice the gmail address? I have a total of seven gmail addresses that I use. Some reply with a signature, some don't. I also use Outlook that has 4 pop accounts that it checks. Two accounts it checks send the same signature one that doesn't and another that sends an entirely different signature. This is why my signature, or lack thereof, is not present when I reply to this list. I don't self promote, because the rules say I shouldn't. This method is actually the most efficient, most organized, and the easiest way to sort, search, respond and recall messages that I have ever had in place in the past 18 years of using the internet. Gopher was alot simpler back then hu? lol I don't really have a preference of a sig or no sig or the use of more than One email file. I just would like clarification of what can or cannot be done accordance with this lists rules. Zack On 5/17/07, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zack, It is totallly impractical to create and have to (somehow) manage different email files for different lists, responses to clients, etc. One email file is the only practical way to go. jack Zack Kneisley wrote: On 5/17/07, David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zack Kneisley wrote: I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature of this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it. That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of what counts as promotion, though. As I put it, I think there should be a limit of what should be included in a signature due to the fact that it could and is inevitably advertising your company. Let's take the email thread, as an example. If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post you should use my company because it's the best, that's probably self-promotion. I agree What if I say you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member? Is that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to offer to paying vendor members? Wispa vendor based advertising is, or should be limited to the specific advertisement only based posts that that vendor has paid for. What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail? Good question, this is a fuzzy type of situation, and the person is being dishonest in posting their views because it is biased. they should disclose this info. Most companies do when they report on a financial partner. Ever watch the evening news when they report on a parent company? They purposely disclose this information. What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome SuperDeluxeEmail is? Dishonest and shoud be treated so. What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority investor? Or merely a very satisfied customer? Disclose it then. What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their service so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them? Not quite sure what you mean. There's a lot of subtle levels here. Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that a lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here. A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy. (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit, you won't be in business for very long.) Rules http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 5) No selling or self promotion allowed. Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, we won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll probably encourage you to do so, but...) Not talking about a booth, talking about direct advertisement in a community post. If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of its value. No, just no self promotion that you can buy this product through me in a general post. this doesn't mean you can't say this product is good because it does this and this It is all a little fuzzy, but I think
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
I think that WISPA does a great job policing its list. It ain't easy -- and there are many shades of gray. I for one think that you should have to pay 'something' to be involved on the lists. Either actually $ or advice points. (Many other forums use this method). Or have a fine for crossing the line. For instance, if Dee did cross the line, he is fined or bounced. To get back on, he has to join as a member. I try not to use a sig file here. But then Patrick and a few others pointed out that without one, no branding - and people don't associate other stuff to the P.I.T.A. on the lists :) Regards, Peter Radizeski @ RAD-INFO, Inc. http://4isps.com Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: I hope that Dee does join as a vendor member. I think that would be great. I also hope that Frank (and the other vendor members) can let this water run off his back. I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have more responsibilities to them. laters, Marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
I would agree! Hear hear! :) I do get good ads from them too! On 5/17/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that WISPA does a great job policing its list. It ain't easy -- and there are many shades of gray. I for one think that you should have to pay 'something' to be involved on the lists. Either actually $ or advice points. (Many other forums use this method). Or have a fine for crossing the line. For instance, if Dee did cross the line, he is fined or bounced. To get back on, he has to join as a member. I try not to use a sig file here. But then Patrick and a few others pointed out that without one, no branding - and people don't associate other stuff to the P.I.T.A. on the lists :) Regards, Peter Radizeski @ RAD-INFO, Inc. http://4isps.com Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: I hope that Dee does join as a vendor member. I think that would be great. I also hope that Frank (and the other vendor members) can let this water run off his back. I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have more responsibilities to them. laters, Marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant www.mikrotikconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Zack Kneisley wrote: Jack, Actually, that is exactly what I do, you will notice the gmail address? I have a total of seven gmail addresses that I use. Some reply with a signature, some don't. I also use Outlook that has 4 pop accounts that it checks. Two accounts it checks send the same signature one that doesn't and another that sends an entirely different signature. This is why my signature, or lack thereof, is not present when I reply to this list. I don't self promote, because the rules say I shouldn't. This method is actually the most efficient, most organized, and the easiest way to sort, search, respond and recall messages that I have ever had in place in the past 18 years of using the internet. Gopher was alot simpler back then hu? lol I don't really have a preference of a sig or no sig or the use of more than One email file. I just would like clarification of what can or cannot be done accordance with this lists rules. Zack That is alot of email accounts. I limit myself to two accounts that I actively check. My work account and my personal account. If I have a list I am involved in, I filter by the list-id header. If I am signing up for something I use the the email address tagging (rfc 2822) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those two features plus some filter rules works really nice to keep my inbox clean. There are a few sites that, do not like the + sign, those are generally spammy site and I dump them to a throwaway account. btw, gmail does support the +tag. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Your troubles with routing or bridging or particular brand of equipment, although important to you at the time, have very little to do with the Industry in general. That is your opinion. Mine is that using this list for any tech support, financial help, legal, regulatory , etc. is wide open and makes for interesting reading most of the time. That is why I am a member of the public list. I sign up for other lists in WISPA for various specific issues which are dedicated to building the industry like the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list and the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. Membership has its privileges whether you want to believe it or not. I still do not understand why you think it is rational to ask for WISPA to do this or that but feel no need to support us as a member now after we worked this hard to build the association. I think most of our members see great value in what we do. I know I do. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list WISPA has responsibilities to the Vendor members? Yikes. Isn't WISPA responsible to the Members and Industry first? I've resisted joining as a Vendor because I disagree with the commercial nature of it all. It is not the money, but rather the principle. When WISPA was being formed, I contributed about $2,000 in direct cash and Server Licenses to induce others to pay up, yet I have never been a member, let alone a FOUNDING MEMBER as some can claim. I got real discouraged to be throwing my weight behind the whole things and the VERY FIRST act of WISPA was to allow Charles to act as if it were his private list for marketing. Why did they do that? Because Charles gave them some freebies and support. Boy this is getting old. Lonnie, there was a FORMAL agreement in place between WISPA and Charles. He paid, out of profit, for the right to use the lists like he did. He was also the first one and we used the experience to fine tune what we do now. Again, you speak of things which you could/would have known about if you'd bothered to participate in an official capacity, or at least ask. WISPA has to decide if it is an Organization that is for Vendors to market to members or is it an Organization for the Industry to represent the needs of the Industry to Government, and other regulatory bodies. It's all of those Lonnie. Vendors are as much a part of the industry as are the WISP. Regulators are a part of what makes us who we are too. So are the customers. If you'll kindly go back over the bylaws you'll see that wisps HAVE to be a bulk of our board's make-up. We, as a board, protect our PAID vendors because that's the deal we made with them. They were given certain rights when they put their money where their mouths are. It's an incentive for other vendors to pony up. This period before elections is a good time have those discussions and see where all the proposed board members sit on the various issues. Very true. I for one would support a strict no self promotion policy in ANY email. Not practical. People have to be able to answer questions about what they know the most about. You have to be able to help people with Star OS questions and this is a good place to do it. The line gets drawn when someone asks about a Mikrotik problem and you tell the list to use your StarOS solution instead. And, those that help with general questions will often be given a longer leash than those that only speak up when it's in their own self interest. Again, it's about the health of the list as much as anything else. Keep it to PAID ads (if you need them at all) and limit the number of those that can be distributed. A Vendor should be happy to support the Industry and should not expect a return or special privilege. Yeah. That would be nice. Not reality though. Many of our current vendor members are certainly very philanthropic (sp???) though. Many have NEVER posted an ad. They all get 1 per quarter. Lest people jump on me for self promotion, I'll point out that I always try and point people to our Support Forums. This list should NOT become a free support arm for ANY Vendor too lazy or incompetent to set up their own support lines. Again, we don't mind the support here. It helps those of us not using the product make choices to or not to use it in the future. It also helps drive list membership and that helps drive association membership and ad sales. We also offer, at no charge to the vendors, specific vendor email lists that they can use as they see fit. This list should be for issues that affect the Industry. Technical issues affect us all. It's also very helpful to know what problems people are having and what they are doing about them. Keeping the customers happy is the MOST important part of our businesses. Your troubles with routing or bridging or particular brand of equipment, although important to you at the time, have very little to do with the Industry in general. I totally disagree with that. It's all important. There are other lists for that and also Vendors should have their own solutions to help you. Who needs yet another list? So, this is what my day looks like. Now I'll get back to work. We're building 4 more towers this year and I get to run the Bobcat today. It'll be fun after all. I LOVE Bobcats! Those things are a blast to play with. Someday I'm gonna find an excuse to buy one. Then I'm gonna paint it yellow and put TONKA stickers all over it :-) Stay safe, marlon Lonnie On 5/17/07, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the big problem here is that Dee almost never posts unless he's got something to sell folks. Naturally, people have to be able to talk
Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list Clint Ricker wrote: Just making it known that blatant self-promotion by non-Vendor members is bad taste means that self-promotion is done at one's own risk--sure, I may let people know I offer a service, but I also may alienate all of my potential customers. And blatant self-promotion by vendor members is better, just because they gave WISPA some money? Yes. That's part of the deal they got when they signed up. Does it mean that they can post an ad every time they want? Not at all. But they can certainly let folks know when they have a solution that fits a question that was asked. AND they DO get to post ads according to the vendor member schedule. Right now that means once per quarter. (I'm not saying this is necessarily your opinion, either express or implied, it was just a really good place to interject the above.) I don't think it's fair or appropriate for any individual or any business entity to get preferential treatment just because they've made a (probably tax-deductible) donation. Donations to WISPA are NOT tax deducatble. WISPA is a 501c6 corp. That's a non profit LOBBYING corp. Dues are not deductable, but we're also able to do much more at the congressional level without getting in trouble for it. For the present sort of issue, really the only thing that should get anyone any special treatment is technical merit - if you make the best widget in the industry, a lot of people will say yup that's a mighty fine widget. Fortunately, I think most of the list agrees with this, at least in principle. The question is just what constitutes unnecessary self-promotion, and there's no single answer to that - it pretty much has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. (If I'm wrong, and there really is a significant paid vendor members = better than sentiment on the list, well, that's another story entirely.) David Smith Bureau 42 Enterprises Multigalactic -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
