Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Lachlan,I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place.(For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing).With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy change them.This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure from presentation in the "why CSS is good" argument.BobThis one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id="copy" script type="text/_javascript_" var d=new Date(); yr=d.getFullYear(); if (yr!=2003) document.write("copy; "+yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div p id="copy"© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p No script (or entity reference) required.
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
I suppose you mean PHP or ASP or similar? If so, wouldn't this be taking things to an extreme just to do a simple copyright that is already handled so well with this little JS? Bob Javascript is for behaviour, not content (or structure, really). Therefore, if you want to dynamically change a year like that, it SHOULD be enshrined in markup (which means static or server-side processing). On 12/7/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan, I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time. By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place. (For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing). With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy change them. This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure from presentation in the why CSS is good argument. Bob This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id=copy script type=text/javascript var d=new Date(); yr=d.getFullYear(); if (yr!=2003) document.write(copy; +yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div p id=copy(c) 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p No script (or entity reference) required. -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Bob Schwartz wrote: This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id=copy script type=text/javascript ... document.write(copy; +yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p No script (or entity reference) required. I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time. By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place. I realise that, but by using javascript to output content, you're not really separating the layers. You could use a server side script to generate it or simply use a serve side include file in all your pages, where you would only have to update it once. If you really want the client side script, you could do something like this: p id=copy© Cedar Tree Books/p var txtCopy = document.getElementById(copy).childNodes.item(0); var year = (new Date()).getFullYear(); txtCopy.replaceData(1, 0, + year); -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
I made the comparison to the construction industry because: 1. we are both in the business of building things and 2. the standards used benefit the end user. A 'brickie' lays bricks in one of a number of standard methods using standard materials. The benefit of this is that the house shouldn't fall down on top of you under agreed environment conditions. The other intrinsic link betwen the two industries is legislation. Health and Safety Law has driven many of the standards introduced into the building trade, and they have become a legal requirement before a brick is laid. Accessibility leglisation will drive standards for websites just as they do access to shops, businesses, and government buildings. I do not condone nor ever wish for a central agency telling us how we must design our sites, we should retain some form of artistic license just as architects, shop front designers, and window dressers do. However I am totally in favour of a central agency regulating how the sites are actually constructed. Whether 'illegal' websites are persued by law as much as dangerous buildings is in truth unlikely. Bad buildings kill, bad web sites are just a pain to some, but that doesn't make me any more comfortable with the idea of constructing a site with tag-soup, both morally, ethically, or legally. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 17:52:38 The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link to. I think that this analog with the construction world is not really satisfactory as the need for, and potential repercussions of, standards and 'validity' and compliance when building a house is much greater than when just serving data. BEFORE I get shot down in flames for blasphemy, I DO think that web standards are important and I agree that XHTML should not be abused. BUT when a website fails, no-one gets injures (except maybe the mainainter if they have a violent boss :) ). I don't think that any suitable analogy can really be used for this case because the potential benefits of Semantics and good data presentation are immense and unique, but only for large data sources. There is a reason why LaTeX isn't taught to 16 year-olds in schools to do essays with, it may produce nice, accurate, readable layouts but to spend the time and effort trying to beat it into people is counter-productive. StephenRobert O'Neill wrote: If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ? The thing is though, if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point, by linking them to the validators. Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA etc) we are still being allowed to regulate ourselves and W3C ! validation seems to be the only option available. So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that ever happen. Rob O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 16:42:46 I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue... The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they like to lo! ok at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean something that business owners can't live without. No FUD
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Bob,
on Tuesday, December 6, 2005 at 18:57 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:
These connected to a linked JS in the head:
1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it; onclick=popUp
(this.href,'elastic',500,650);return false;nbsp;powered by:
FotoGrafics/a
a href=http://www.fotografics.it;
rel=popUp(type=elastic;width=500;height=650)nbsp;powered by: FotoGrafics/a
In an external JavaScript:
var links = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for(var i=0; ilinks.length;i++) {
if(links[i].getAttribute(rel)) {
var relation = getRelation(links[i]);
var params = getParams(links[i]);
switch(relation) {
case 'popUp':
links[i].onclick = new Function(return
!popUp('+links[i].getAttribute(href)+','+params['type']+','+params['width']+','+params['height']+'););
links[i].setAttribute(title,Link opens new window);
break;
}
}
}
function getRelation(obj) {
var rel=obj.getAttribute(rel);
if(!rel)return false;
return rel.indexOf(()==-1?rel:rel.substring(0,rel.indexOf(());
}
function getParams(obj) {
var rel=obj.getAttribute(rel);
if(!rel)return false;
if(rel.indexOf(()==-1||rel.indexOf())==-1) return [];
var pliste = rel.substring(rel.indexOf(()+1,rel.indexOf()))
var result = [];
var parameter = pliste.split(;);
for(var i=0;iparameter.length;i++) {
var nameValue = parameter[i].split(=);
result[nameValue[0]]=nameValue[1];
}
return result;
}
This isn't perfect, but at least a start. Probably it is better to use
the class attribute. The rest could also be done simpler and faster...
I'm far from being a JavaScript-Guru ;-)
2. div id=homea href=# tabindex=1 onfocus=P7_trigNV
('p7NVim10') onblur=P7_trigNV() onmouseover=P7_trigNV
('p7NVim10') onmouseout=P7_trigNV()img src=as/im/v2_01.jpg
alt= width=88 height=25 id=p7NVim10 //a/div
Do you have a page where we can see what should happen?
3. body onload=P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2);P7_trigNV()
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/10/_and_the_winner_1.html
But with all the comments...
Then:
addEvent(body,'load',function() { P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2) });
addEvent(body,'load',P7_trigNV);
This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:
div id=copy
script type=text/javascript
var d=new Date();
yr=d.getFullYear();
if (yr!=2003)
document.write(copy; +yr);
/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books
/div
Do it on the serverside!!!
regards
Martin
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Martin Heiden wrote: Do it on the serverside!!! Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles (although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per year. Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template and remember to change it in the new year. Guess this is my enterprise application architecture brain talking here. .Peter -- Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing http://blog.maestropublishing.com Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1 Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion for free! http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/ - Member Team Mach-II - Member Team Fusion! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null
Hi Chris,
As JavaScript isn't a precompiled language (rather a scripting one),
functions, objects and variables are processed one after another,
following the source order. When you declare your variables, the browser
is not yet aware of the existence of the two requested elements. You
have several alternatives:
To place your script after the two a and p elements, inside the body
tags ( it's probably not the nicest way but it functions...):
-
html
head
titleJavaScript Testing/title
style type=text/css media=screen
a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
p { display: none; }
/style
/head
body
a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
p id=onoffHello world!/p
script type=text/javascript
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
toggle.onmouseover = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'inline';
}
toggle.onmouseout = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'none';
}
/script
/body
/html
To write a simple function and call it with the onmouseover and
onmouseout event handlers inside the elements tags:
html
head
titleJavaScript Testing/title
style type=text/css media=screen
a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
p { display: none; }
/style
script type=text/javascript
function toggle(status) {
var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
onoff.style.display = status;
}
/script
/head
body
a id=toggle href=# onMouseOver=toggle('block');
onMouseOut=toggle('none');Hover toggle/a
p id=onoffHello world!/p
/body
/html
---
To write a more complicated function and call it with a onLoad event
handler in the body tag, which delays the processing of the function and
its variables till all the objects are loaded in memory by the browser:
html
head
titleJavaScript Testing/title
style type=text/css media=screen
a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
p { display: none; }
/style
script type=text/javascript
function toggleOnOff() {
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
toggle.onmouseover = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'block';
}
toggle.onmouseout = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'none';
}
}
/script
/head
body onLoad=toggleOnOff();
a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
p id=onoffHello world!/p
/body
/html
-
HTH!
Roberto
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[WSG] page check please - mime type!
Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
It looks ok. It is validated. 2005/12/7, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
designer wrote: Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / Changing the MIME type in the meta element is completely useless, as the application needs to know the MIME type in order to know how to parse it *before* it begins parsing. Once it has reached that meta element, parsing has already begun. It is the MIME type sent by the server in the HTTP Content-Type header that matters, and for your page it sends text/html. See the HTTP headers: http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/headers?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhh.myzen.co.uk%2Frhh%2Fthearea%2Farea.php You may see what happens when the page is really served as application/xhtml+xml. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/content-type-proxy/content-type-proxy?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhh.myzen.co.uk%2Frhh%2Fthearea%2Farea.phptype=application%2Fxhtml%2Bxml Note: The reason the stylesheet isn't applied at all in this case has nothing to do with it being served as XML, it's only because it's linked with a relative URI and via that proxy, it no longer points to the right place. If you change all paths to absolute URIs pointing to your server and the result will be better. It does, however, demonstrate that your page is at least well-formed. I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. Because it's php, you can use the header() function to send the correct Content-Type header. Place this before any content is output. header(Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml); However, doing so will lock out any IE users and Google, but you may as well completely remove the meta element, because it's only an inferior substitute for real HTTP headers. Use this instead: header(Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8); If you choose to do content negotiation and serve application/xhtml+xml to browsers that support it and text/html to those that don't, be aware that it prevents incremental rendering in Mozilla. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) You may as well just use valid HTML 4.01 Strict. See XHTML is not for Beginners, the MIME type issue is just one of the many reasons. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners (yes, I'm aware of the irony that the article itself is XHTML as text/html, but that's the useless default wordpress template that I'm too lazy to fix up) Lastly, with regard to the style element within the page: style type=text/css /*![CDATA[*/ !-- @import url(../css/areastyle.css); -- /*]]*/ /style You may as well remove the fake XML comment (!-- and --) in there, it's effectively useless these days, although keeping it as is will do no harm because of the CDATA section. Keep the /*![CDATA[*/ and /*]]*/ in there, they're the most effective way to handle the different parsing requirements of HTML and XHTML. See this article that discusses the issue in great detail: http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/script-comments -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Looks fine in Mac Firefox 1.5 and Safari 2.02. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 7, 2005, at 8:13 AM, designer wrote: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad. In the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service. Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible. In practice, it means at least passing the WAG 1 test. I don't think that Managers and The-people-who-control-the-money do believe that not following standards will cost them and publicising web standards is still a big issue. Stephen Duckworth, Nigel wrote: Stephen Stagg: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that getting it wrong will cost you? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such we know what's good for you arrogance only harms the standards movement. Regards, -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Peter J. Farrell wrote: Martin Heiden wrote: Do it on the serverside!!! Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles (although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per year. Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template and remember to change it in the new year. Guess this is my enterprise application architecture brain talking here. .Peter To me the real problem with this example is that by entering the copyright year into the document using JavaScript, you are letting the user decide which year your document is copyrighted in. If the user's machine time is not set correctly, your copyright date will reflect whatever year the time is set to. I realize that very few people have their clocks set so far off that this will be a major problem, but, it is important to keep in mind that JavaScript is a client side language and you need to be aware that changes in the client machine's environment will affect the document they see when you are using JavaScript to generate content based on the user environment. For things like copyright notices, I agree with Peter that they should be generated server side, or hard coded into the page. However, I think the point of Bob's example, is to ask the question: How should I write the JavaScript if I have an item in one or more pages that changes dynamically with time or with each page load? I think Lachlans answer is that strict separation of behavior and content creates a better structure for the page that is easier to create and maintain. I personally feel that moving a single line of JavaScript to a separate file is pushing this paradigm too far. However, putting a single line of JavaScript in every link on a page would have the same effect as in-lining all your CSS. If you ever have to make a change to the page, you will be searching through the content to find all those single JavaScript line rather than looking in one file for a place to change them. Carl. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
I'm no Lawyer but what are the legal ramifications of a user having the wrong year set on the client. If the client's clock were set to 1900 then wouldn't the Copyright notice then be invalid? That is one of the ramifications of not Using PHP or ASP. Stephen Bob Schwartz wrote: Lachlan, I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time. By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place. (For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing). With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy change them. This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure from presentation in the why CSS is good argument. Bob This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id=copy script type=text/javascript var d=new Date(); yr=d.getFullYear(); if (yr!=2003) document.write(copy; +yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p No script (or entity reference) required. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Yes, the key to this argument/discussion is whether your site offers a service to the general public. As suggested earlier we cant expect someone hosting his/her home page on Geocities to follow web standards, but anyone offering services online bears a moral responsibility to make those services available to as many people as possible, regardless of whether they are a minority of your target audience or not, and, at least in the UK, a legal responsibility. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/12/2005 15:10:48 I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad. In the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service. Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible. In practice, it means at least passing the WAG 1 test. I don't think that Managers and "The-people-who-control-the-money" do believe that not following standards will cost them and publicising web standards is still a big issue.StephenDuckworth, Nigel wrote: Stephen Stagg: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that "getting it wrong will cost you"? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such "we know what's good for you" arrogance only harms the standards movement. Regards, -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** *** IMPORTANT NOTICE *** *** PPA DISCLAIMER*** This e-mail and any attachments transmitted with it, including replies and forwarded copies subsequently transmitted (which may contain alterations), contains information which may be confidential and which may also be privileged. The content of this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the person authorised as responsible for delivery to the intended recipient(s), please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this e-mail or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the Network Team at the Prescription Pricing Authority via e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] including a copy of this message. Please then delete this e-mail and destroy any copies of it. Further, we make every effort to keep our network free from viruses. However, you do need to validate this e-mail and any attachments to it for viruses, as we can take no responsibility for any computer virus that might be transferred by way of this e-mail. This e-mail is from the Prescription Pricing Authority whose principal office is at Bridge House, 152 Pilgrim Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 6SN. Switchboard Telephone Number :- +44 (0)191 232 5371
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Designer wrote: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). It looks fine on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
On 12/7/05, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you choose to do content negotiation and serve application/xhtml+xml to browsers that support it and text/html to those that don't, be aware that it prevents incremental rendering in Mozilla. So is the best thing to target xhtml browsers? Like, specifically Opera, Safari, Konquerer, etc? How exactly would one do content negotation with PHP? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Mac report: Worked fine in Safari v1 - bottom margin of about 1.5em, same as top Worked okay in IE v5.2 - the bottom margin was extended 10em approx. Worked fine in Opera v8.51 - bottom margin approx 3em Personally I'd ignore the margin difference but I thought I'd mention it in case it bothers you. Mime type worked well. Will probably start using it myself. Regards Mike 2k:)2 Mike Foskett Web Standards, Accessibility Testing Consultant Communications British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday] Fax: 02476 411410 http://www.becta.org.uk -Original Message- From: Stephen Stagg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2005 15:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type! Designer wrote: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). It looks fine on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Lachlan Hunt wrote: You may as well just use valid HTML 4.01 Strict. See XHTML is not for Beginners, the MIME type issue is just one of the many reasons. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners (yes, I'm aware of the irony that the article itself is XHTML as text/html, but that's the useless default wordpress template that I'm too lazy to fix up) It is an irony that I am prohibited from getting comments through to that article. However, it isn't important to me, since I can make up my own mind about the subject anyway. Hope others are able to do that too. The most important thing is to have knowledge to base ones choices on. As long as such information is available - and I found some that might be useful for beginners in that article, then it is up to each one to make use of that information. Hands-on experience is a must in order to get a full understanding though. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Christian Montoya wrote: doesn't work! You are all viewing text/html. Pretty soon everyone on this list will think they are serving xhtml. Yes, and a large percentage of them will serve complete garbage :-) I'll get it started right: DID NOT work in every single browser. Version 0.1 to 1000. IE/Mac/Linux/Sun. Sound better - and is probably 100% true. Since my approach to xhtml seems to be ever so slightly misunderstood by some, may I be allowed to link to an extended version of that approach. It seems to have worked reasonably well for me for the last couple of years. However, I wouldn't mind if someone proved me wrong on this, as there's always something to be learned on the subject of 'MIME type jumping'. It can be viewed as HTML4.01-equivalent XHTML1.0: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.html (will even work in IE/win - on a good day.) ...or as xhtml1.0 served and hopefully received as 'application/xhtml+xml': http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.xhtml (this is what that page started out as. Need xml compliant browser, or one that can cheat so it appears to parse the code correctly.) ...or as *complete garbage*: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03-notvalid.xhtml (shouldn't work anywhere - despite the fact that it has only _one_ un-encoded ampersand.) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Peter, on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 at 12:31 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Martin Heiden wrote: Do it on the serverside!!! Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles (although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per year. Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template and remember to change it in the new year. Guess this is my enterprise application architecture brain talking here. You're right! I would do it with SSI or even more static (maybe by using a Dreamweaver library element). As others mentioned, the solution via JavaScript relies on a correct set clock at the client's side and you can't control that. So best practice is: don't trust in it! If one uses JavaScript, one should always ask, what happens if JavaScript is disabled? What happens if anything the script relies on, is different from the expectation? The site should be usable even if the scripts aren't executed. So if it is possible to do something at the serverside or even before the upload ;-). It should be done there! And if you have a wonderful behaviour which only works on the clientside, make the site work without it, or at least give the user a message that without JavaScript he'll miss something marvelous... An Example: On our site we've got an online-consultation tool which only works with JavaScript enabled. At the moment we are redoing the site and after the relaunch this tool will be started via click on an image button. On window.onload an unobstrusive JavaScript will exchange a button which links to a contact form, with the one to start the online-consultation tool. So a user without JavaScript can use the contact form and the one with JavaScript enabled has the chance to contact us by chat. ( Of course there is another link to the contact form ;-) ) And that's the magic: You're site looks well and is usable even without JavaScript, but the scripts are able to enhance the functionality and the usability of web pages without making them unusable if the scripts aren't executed. regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Sorry, just the map you used. My comment was meant light-heartedly. Your location map looks very like the one that can be got from http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/. As these are crown copyright, I assume that you haven't got an agreement with them to use their data unattributed. Even their website has the text: Image reproduced with permission of Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland below each image. designer wrote: Duh? Stephen? Stephen Stagg wrote: Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Martin Heiden wrote: Peter, on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 at 12:31 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles (although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per year. Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template and remember to change it in the new year. Guess this is my enterprise application architecture brain talking here. You're right! I would do it with SSI or even more static (maybe by using a Dreamweaver library element). As others mentioned, the solution via _javascript_ relies on a correct set clock at the client's side and you can't control that. So best practice is: don't trust in it! IIRC, copyrights are implicit in the US. The absence of a copyright notice does not necessary mean that the work is not copyrighted. A copyright notice became optional in the US in 1989. For more information, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright Standard Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and the information above should not be construed as advice. If only the general public knew about it... Sorry for being OT. I rarely rely on JS at all. I have a few applications that I wrote that explicitly depend on it, but that was a requirement in the architecture process and it is clear to our customers that use it (it's not a public facing website). .Peter -- Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing http://blog.maestropublishing.com Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1 Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion for free! http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/ - Member Team Mach-II - Member Team Fusion!
[WSG] re:talking points for standards
Bert wrote:When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean codeis better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is fullof tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.I searched for web design in Google (pages from Australia only). The top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout,none of them validated and only one had a doctype. They all usedsome CSS but only in addition to the tagsoup.So where are the benefits? =As a digest reader I don't respond much since most things are settled or overworked by the time I read them. This may fit the later category but even so every now and then it's good to ask why bother?. Bert's been at it long enough to know the answer but sometime it's good to hear it. For standards the answer to why bother isn't really found in page size, bandwidth savings or even ease of reconfiguration. The answer is in the purpose of the semantic web. Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila were clear about their goal in their seminal The Semantic Web. The target is a decentralized, data driven web. That's the goal of the w3c: a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[1] To make that vision work, data has to be accessible and understandable. Web standards are focused on making that possible. Page design is a part of those standards but is not the extent of those standards. The reason we follow standards should be to create pages which offer data that can be searched by User Agents in a reliable way. That is, the content is presented in accordance with a declared set of rules which clearly define what elements are and what their usage means. Furthermore, standards means presentation can be safely ignored since it in no way affects the content. With known elements and no concern about presentational inference, data becomes the focus. Some of the data can be even be extracted from the semantics of the page: proper use of headers, lists as dialogue, etc. A good start but only a start. What we need to remember is that standards go way beyond this. What we need to remember is that a fully semantic web revolves around the rdf framework;employing uri's, taking advantage of the sparql and owl for data manipulation, making use of daml+oil for establishing data equivalence.--- bringing the flexibility of the web to fruition: RDF is a flexible and extensible way to represent information about World Wide Web resources. It is used to represent, among other things, personal information, social networks, metadata about digital artifacts, as well as provide a means of integration over disparate sources of information. A standardized query language for RDF data with multiple implementations offers developers and end users a way to write and to consume the results of queries across this wide range of information. Used with a common protocol, applications can access and combine information from across the Web. [2]This is a vision that moves well beyond the electronic. Uri's are conceived of as representing not just links but also places and people. The rdf framework of grahps provides a way to establish the links in a chain by which a person acquires and evaluates knowledge and resources in a,hopefully, evolving process. The problem is that the data upon which such a web depends is in incompatible and likely mutually incomprehensible formats. Making that data interchangeable is what standards do. Various forms of xml derived technologies as OWL[3] and daml+oil[4] help to establish an equivalence of data; making it possible for machines and people to trust that the data they are receiving is understood as it was meant to be. So that zip is understood as intended by the original author be that meaning as zip code, nothing, or zipper type. The translation is accurate. In the end, a user, including all of us, will shape their own experience with the web. Trust, the feeling that the data is accurate, will come with a combination of electronic signature verification and the slower process of building a set of uri's individuals find reliable. It's not an absolute standard of trust, it's a personal and relative standard as varied as the web. Will this matter to large commercial sites? Probably not; nor necessarily should it. Their version of the web is proscribed by their concern with brand name recognition and frankly sales. People maintaining such sites won't worry about truples and how daml classes are written. A web authoring tool which is wysiwyg, with nested tables and tag soup, will work fine for them unless and until it becomes a compelling business reason to do pages in another form. You can bet that if standards compliant pages lead to new and different search methodologies, commercial sites will follow along. Business didn't invent the web, it just changed it. Other groups can do the same thing. You can have the web
[WSG] IE 5 MAC - Is it a clear issue?
Hi folks I have a site design which I am working on coding up and at the moment it appears to be IE5.2.3 on OSX that is causing me problems. Safari seems okay so far! I have a right hand login box box which has a top and a middle section. The div I am looking at is : #loginboxmiddle I have a conditional comment for any IE stuff and Firefox is displaying fine from the code in the main stylesheet styles.css I have all Mac IE5 stuff in a separate stylesheet. For some reason the box to the right of the last float is not sitting like the other browsers? I have tried clear:both and also clear right on this div but no luck? I have also tried reducing the margin by a few hundred pixels but it does not seem to budge. Can anyone advise please? Page: http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/ Username: spotlight Pass: spotclips CSS: http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/ie51.css (MAC CSS) http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/styles.css (Main CSS) http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/iespecific.css (Used for Conditional Comments) Thanks for you help! Ben Logan Director Spotless Design Tel: +44 (0) 207 168 7526 Mob: +44 (0) 7971 002292 MSN ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: djbenlogan AOL IM: DJBenLogan
[WSG] absolute positioning?
Hey, I'm trying to build a daily schedule view which will have schedules from 6am - 10pm. I'm not sure if this is the correct approach so I'm asking for help... I was thinking of using a table with 3 columns, 1 column for the name, 1 column for job title and 1 column for their daily schedule. I was thinking of using spans for the various tasks that the users will have throughout their day. table width=790px; border=1 tr td width=75pxPat Smoot/td td width=75pxCSR/td td width=640pxspan style=left:0px;width:140px;background-color:blue;text-align:center;Work/span/td /tr /table the border is just for viewing.. I believe what I need to use is absolutle positioning however when I add that to the inline CSS statement, the width works but the span is moved out of the cell table element. I'm no CSS wiz, I'm just a beginner and hoping one of you can suggest some sites to look at, tutorials or code snippets. I also tried all CSS and didnt get too far either.. div id=schedule div id=schedule_row style=position:absolute;width:790px; span id=user style=position:absolute;left:0px;width:75px;text-align:center;Pat Smoot/span span id=job style=position:absolute;left:75px;width:75px;text-align:center;CSR/span span class=task style=position:relative;width:120px;left:120px;text-align:center;background-color:blue;Work/span /div /div I'm trying to make it look something like this... http://home.alltel.net/omen/schedule_example.jpg Thanks! -- Auxilium meum a Domino ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] absolute positioning?
Hi Greg, Although it's an interesting thing you're trying to do. I think it's a bit hacky. While it's seem table-like it's actually a graph and I'd probably consider a few other options. 1. do the third column with images 2. do the entire graph as one big image or 3. use SVG If you still think using the pure table is the go, then you might find the following link helpful... http://www.find-a-psychiatrist.com/ whoops, I meant this one :P... http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/absolute/index.html HTH Ben On 12/8/05, Greg Morphis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I'm trying to build a daily schedule view which will have schedules from 6am - 10pm. I'm not sure if this is the correct approach so I'm asking for help... I was thinking of using a table with 3 columns, 1 column for the name, 1 column for job title and 1 column for their daily schedule. I was thinking of using spans for the various tasks that the users will have throughout their day. table width=790px; border=1 tr td width=75pxPat Smoot/td td width=75pxCSR/td td width=640pxspan style=left:0px;width:140px;background-color:blue;text-align:center;Work/span/td /tr /table the border is just for viewing.. I believe what I need to use is absolutle positioning however when I add that to the inline CSS statement, the width works but the span is moved out of the cell table element. I'm no CSS wiz, I'm just a beginner and hoping one of you can suggest some sites to look at, tutorials or code snippets. I also tried all CSS and didnt get too far either.. div id=schedule div id=schedule_row style=position:absolute;width:790px; span id=user style=position:absolute;left:0px;width:75px;text-align:center;Pat Smoot/span span id=job style=position:absolute;left:75px;width:75px;text-align:center;CSR/span span class=task style=position:relative;width:120px;left:120px;text-align:center;background-color:blue;Work/span /div /div I'm trying to make it look something like this... http://home.alltel.net/omen/schedule_example.jpg Thanks! -- Auxilium meum a Domino ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ben Wong e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://blog.onehero.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners I am prohibited from getting comments through to that article. That's weird, if you contact me off list and let me know what error you received I might be able to do something about it. If you send me your comment, I can add it for you. However, it isn't important to me, since I can make up my own mind about the subject anyway. Hope others are able to do that too. As I wrote in the article, those who are competent enough to make an informed decision may do so. Beginners who've never even built a web page before can hardly be considered as knowledgeable on the subject and wouldn't be able to make a fully informed decision. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] problems!!!
Hi guys, I hate to bother all you guys with this, but I Cant Fix it!!! On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/ I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs right below the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear them right, left, and it doesnt do it... Also if you have any coments about the way it is constructed the site or the css please let me know. Thanx a lot for your help and support in this wheeping moment. Gerardo Cháirez This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] problems!!!
G'day On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/ I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs right below the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear them right, left, and it doesnt do it... I've done a quick test in Firefox (with the web dev toolbar). Try removing clearboth and don't put a 100% width on twocols. AS I see it, by clearing twocols and giving it a 100% width (plus margins), you are forcing it below the floating elements. I found it odd that something with id=leftcontent would be floating right. Try to not use presentational id and class names. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS - Fixing PNG Transparency Issues in IE?
I was reading Matt's WordPress blog and noticed at the bottom of the
page he has an up arrow so you can click to go up, so I tried peeking at
his css with the Web Developer Toolbar so I could see how he did it.
But, something else caught my attention. I noticed in his other.css file
that he has this line of code
/* --- Fix PNG Transparentcy issue in IE --- */
img { behavior: url(/wp-content/themes/lucid/css/other/pngbehavior.htc); }
His site is here http://mattread.com/
If anyone knows anything about this htc file, if it would be good to
use, how exactly it works, and where I might find a bit more information
about it I would be ever so appreciative :)
Many thanks,
Artemis
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Re: [WSG] CSS - Fixing PNG Transparency Issues in IE?
Artemis wrote: If anyone knows anything about this htc file, if it would be good to use, how exactly it works, and where I might find a bit more information about it I would be ever so appreciative :) http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Commerce sites - advice and examples
Hi all I have someone who is looking for a commerce site (in Australia) to sell their products from. They obviously would like a simple shopping cart, and do not have too many products. It's not something I've learnt how to do, and they are looking for someone closer to them and wanted some advice on what to look for when choosing someone. I've told them the basics of web design, but is there something they should be looking for in regard to a secure shopping site? They currently use Mal's Cart, and have access to osCommerce through the Cpanel of their website. What are the pitfalls, or what should they insist upon from their web developer? Oh, and does anyone have any idea of what would be a reasonable fee for them to compare quotes to? Thanks! Michelle ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
Hi all
Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for
e.g.) that validates.
I have come across the following:
textarea { overflow: auto; }
but there appear to be some problems with it.
Any other suggestions appreciated.
Thanks
Sarah
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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for e.g.) that validates. Just wondering why you need it. In which non-obsolete browser does the value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission? -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
I'm modifying some of the Zen Cart code to ensure validation. The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping to do a find and replace to fix it. Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for e.g.) that validates. Just wondering why you need it. In which non-obsolete browser does the value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission? -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for e.g.) that validates. Just wondering why you need it. In which non-obsolete browser does the value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission? I'm modifying some of the Zen Cart code to ensure validation. That doesn't answer the question and explain *why* you need it. The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping to do a find and replace to fix it. Soft is the default value, so it's completely unnecessary. Remove it. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
G'day The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping to do a find and replace to fix it. Does that (proprietary) attribute actually do anything in any browser? The only values I have seen mentioned for it are off, Virtual and physical - I've not seen soft mentioned before. If it doesn't do anything (other than invalidate the pages), I'd just remove it. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1 star. On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote: From: Herrod, Lisa Who really pays attention to the badges? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient... I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating or badge system either unless it was mandated. I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken sites with no stars or 1 star though. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 12/7/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1 star. You just now realized that Google doesn't care at all about standards compliance??? I think it's a shame. Have you ever seen the output of MSN Search? An improvement, at least. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Trolling? :) Tip:(unrelated to this dead thread) I found this good reference: a list of commonly confused HTML special characters http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~ggbaker/reference/characters/#single Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Trick Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1 star. On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote: From: Herrod, Lisa Who really pays attention to the badges? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient... I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating or badge system either unless it was mandated. I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken sites with no stars or 1 star though. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP
G'day Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Hi Bert So remove *wrap=soft* entirely? Yep - I agree with Lachlan (for a change :-) Soft is the default value, so it's completely unnecessary. Remove it. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons
One way around this is to use button type=submit instead of input type=submitThe button tag offers far more opportunity to style than input, and allows you to include an image inside a button tag. The buttons look the same in all modern browsers regadless of OS.Did a little experimenting here: http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/ -- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com
RE: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons
I find it hard to believe but it looks like it's using an image file to draw the button?!?! I'v enever noticed this before. Perhaps I've never had buttons that long. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Burgan Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 11:46 AM To: undisclosed-recipients: Subject: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons Does anyone have a clue as to why this happens: IE6.0 only on XP makes form buttons display really pixelated what the button's width gets to a certain size. It doesn't seem to occur is any Mac browsers, and no other Win browsers or versions More specifically, when either the label is = 19 characters, or the width is = 192 pixels. Form buttons without width defined: http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button.htm Form buttons with width defined: http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button-width.htm Does anyone have any ideas as to how to get around this? Tim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons
Hi Nick, Does button type=submit still submit a form by default, or does it require javascript to do so? If it doesn't require javascript.. why doesn't everyone use button type=submit? Tim Nick Cowie wrote: One way around this is to use button type=submit instead of input type=submit The button tag offers far more opportunity to style than input, and allows you to include an image inside a button tag. The buttons look the same in all modern browsers regadless of OS. Did a little experimenting here: http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/ http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/ -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE adding image margin
Hi everyone, I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images. As is always the case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc. The footer at the bottom should have rounded corners which have been created by putting the images in the cell left + right, and having the center part as a repeating background image. However, IE is adding a few pixels margin on the outer edges of the images, so you can see the repeating background on the outer edges of the corner pieces. You can view the problem at: http://aica.nichestudio.netCSS is:.footerbar { background-image: url(../images/footer_2.gif); background-repeat: repeat-x; background-position: 0 bottom; padding: 0 }HTML is:tr height="18"td class="footerbar" colspan="3" align="center" valign="top" height="18" width="776"img src="" alt="" height="18" width="18" align="right"/img src="" alt="" height="18" width="18" align="left"/?php mosLoadModules( 'bottommenu' ); ?/td/trThis is an old site i did when my coding skills were super-inferior, and I'm hoping to avoid having to fix the whole thing with divs. Does anyone know a common fix for this problem? Thanks for your help,Julia Birks.
Re: [WSG] IE adding image margin
G'day Julia, Firefox is actually not displaying properly either. Your text is quite small on the page, so if you hit Control and the plus key a few times to enlarge it you'll see what happens to your footer area. I also note you have two doctypes in your code. One for xhtml and one for html. Lose the latter. At the top of your page, you also have the xml resolution of ?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1? It is my understanding that this throws IE into quirks mode and shouldn't be used. Regards, Ric Julia Birks wrote: Hi everyone, I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images. As is always the case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc. The footer at the bottom should have rounded corners which have been created by putting the images in the cell left + right, and having the center part as a repeating background image. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE adding image margin
Best would be to rewrite the code at least in the footer, too many nested tables. For a quick fix - add hspace=0 to the corner images. Alex On 12/8/05, Julia Birks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images. As is always the case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc. The footer at the bottom should have rounded corners which have been created by putting the images in the cell left + right, and having the center part as a repeating background image. However, IE is adding a few pixels margin on the outer edges of the images, so you can see the repeating background on the outer edges of the corner pieces. You can view the problem at: http://aica.nichestudio.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] problems!!!
Thanx for your response Bert, My problem is this: If I display the page on 800*600 it would look correct, the thing is when I use a higher resolution as 1024*786 or bigger... the quienes somos text would move right below the bienvenidos section, I need that the twocols items display on the same line, as it look a bit funny the way it is at the moment... I have made the changes... and are almost in position, but not quite right... and im sure im gonna have the same problem with the text after them. http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/ also, you can see the final design at http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/finalLimpeq.jpg Thanx for al your help... Regards, Gerardo -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Bert Doorn Enviado el: Miércoles, 07 de Diciembre de 2005 04:05 p.m. Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Asunto: Re: [WSG] problems!!! G'day On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/ I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs right below the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear them right, left, and it doesnt do it... I've done a quick test in Firefox (with the web dev toolbar). Try removing clearboth and don't put a 100% width on twocols. AS I see it, by clearing twocols and giving it a 100% width (plus margins), you are forcing it below the floating elements. I found it odd that something with id=leftcontent would be floating right. Try to not use presentational id and class names. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons
Tim askedDoes button type=submit still submit a form by default, or does it require _javascript_ to do so?button type=submit = input type=submit but don't take my word for it, do what I did when I found out about the button element, go visit the W3c http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.5 If it doesn't require _javascript_.. why doesn't everyone use buttontype=submit?Because everybody has been taught / learnt to use the input element.The button element is the new kid on the block it was only introduced in 1997 with HTML 4.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON input has be around a lot longer. -- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com
Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons
Thanks Nick, Nick Cowie wrote: The button element is the new kid on the block it was only introduced in 1997 with HTML 4.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON input has be around a lot longer. http://nickcowie.com No kidding! RIP: input type=submit / ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Single sane reason: Well now, I suppose they're not trying to get themselves indexed by a search engine, are they? ;-) josh -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 On 12/8/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote: Trolling? Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me! I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate. I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could all just shake it off - they are no where near validating. Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of their other products that are an improvement). 51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup! For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no less, and they should pick up their act. Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere near compliant? Lea ~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;) -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Lea de Groot wrote: On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote: Trolling? Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me! I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate. I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could all just shake it off - they are no where near validating. Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of their other products that are an improvement). 51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup! For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no less, and they should pick up their act. Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere near compliant? Lea ~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote: Trolling? Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me! I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate. I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could all just shake it off - they are no where near validating. Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of their other products that are an improvement). 51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup! For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no less, and they should pick up their act. Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere near compliant? Lea ~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;) -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need help with form
Dunno, doesn't it give you any feedback? By the way, the page isn't valid according to w3c validator either. http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//mouseriders.dk/check.php On 12/8/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no. So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages. I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms. So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php Thanks Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ben Wong e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://blog.onehero.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Need help with form
Hi, I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no. So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages. I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms. So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php Thanks Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need help with form
label for=NavnFor og efternavnspan class=required*/spanbr input name=navn value= type=text /label You're using the name attribute, which isn't valid, and some of your for values have the first letter capitalised, whilst the respective input name does not. The fact you've omitted an id on some elements probably doesn't help, either. Validating the page might go some way to resolving the problems. Regards, Josh On 12/8/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no. So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages. I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms. So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php Thanks Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 12/8/05, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Single sane reason: Well now, I suppose they're not trying to get themselves indexed by a search engine, are they? ;-) josh Good answer. Maybe also: - they aren't making a browser - they use lots of javascript - they don't care Maybe the WASP should start talking to them? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] problems!!!
Well, you fixed another problem that I had... :-)
But I still having the problem...
The thing is this...
The Bienvenidos text and the photo are in one line,
The next line are quienes somos and nuestros clients (This two should be
displayed in the same line, without being one higher than the other)
The next line are nuestros servicios and the photo, these two again
shouldnt be displayed on different topor bottom levels...
And noticias should be after the photo and not wrap around...
I updated the link
http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/
-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
En nombre de Bert Doorn
Enviado el: Miércoles, 07 de Diciembre de 2005 10:46 p.m.
Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Asunto: Re: [WSG] problems!!!
G'day again
Thanx for your response Bert,
My problem is this: If I display the page on 800*600 it would look
correct, the thing is when I use a higher resolution as 1024*786 or
bigger... the quienes somos text would move right below the
bienvenidos
section, I need that the twocols items display on the same line,
Looking at it with resolution of 1152*864. I see what you mean,
if I enlarge the text.
Put a margin-left on #columnMain then, equal to the amount of
space you want to reserve. Something like:
#columnMain { margin:0 0 0 120px; }
Or am I looking at the wrong problem?
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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Re: [WSG] Need help with form *SOLVED*
Thanks you very much for helping me out. I've corrected the errors and everything is fine now. Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
G'day Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me! I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate. I never looked at it closely, but you're right - it's tagsoup, tables for layout and deprecated elements and attributes galore (font, center anyone?). No DTD either. Perhaps, like *many* businesses, they look at it and say it works in all browsers, so what's all the fuss about? They don't *see* the need... Perhaps it's also a case of (some) programmers are not html coders. It seems many people who write server side scripts only have a vocabulary of about 10-12 HTML elements (html, title, meta, body, table, tr, td, center, font, img and maybe a couple more). Yes, I know there are exceptions... Just thinking Google may fall into this category as it's obviously script driven. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
