[WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System

2005-01-23 Thread Neerav
There has been lots written about separating content from presentation, and most developers see the benefit of this approach (cleaner, leaner markup; faster download speeds; easier maintainability, etc). There is also a fair amount written about separating behaviour from both content and

Re: [WSG] Table v Container Development

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Depending on the amount of hits they get, the bandwidth limits they have, etc. Whilst its always nice to include such information in our propaganda we hand out to clients, we do have to maintain a realist stance sometimes... most of our clients are small

Re: [WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Neerav wrote: read on at http://juicystudio.com/ecmascriptmenu.asp Looking good. However just being the nit-pick I am, might I suggest you enclose the list headers in h2 tags? ...And I'm not enirely sure about the click opens, another closes the same system, compared to open another and the

[WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread john
Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could

RE: [WSG] Table v Container Development

2005-01-23 Thread Mike Pepper
I deal with smaller clients, too, David and while I agree with your comments, I run reseller hosting and when on a limited budget in a cut-throat hosting business, those extra few Gigs often trip the switch to a higher bandwidth package, especially if clients are using eBay or similar commercial

RE: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
-Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the

Re: [WSG] xHTML style guide/ coding guidelines

2005-01-23 Thread David Laakso
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:18:39 -0500, Rob McCormack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . Anyone know of a nice style guide (or guidelines)for writing xHTML/HTML .. Rob New York Public Library Online Style Guide http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/ David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/

RE: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Iain Gardiner
It certainly has nothing to do with grammar, it's more a presentation convention that has evolved with type. As for a solution, maybe the CSS property 'white-space: pre' would work? Iain -- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. AFAIK, the all the non-markup specific entities (ie: the ones that aren't: quot;, amp;, lt;, gt;) have been depreciated, if not removed, from

[WSG] Re: double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Antonio Bueno Delgado
Hello, John, What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? Not with CSS, unless you have all periods or sentences surrounded by a tag. And about being proper, I see it as a typography convention, not anything X/HTML related.

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread designer
- Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Terrence Wood
A double space after a period has nothing to do with grammar AFAIK, it is a convention that comes from typewriter (and fixed width font) days. Apparently the convention comes about because it makes it easier to distinguish the end of a sentence, both from the preceding sentence and from

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread James Bennett
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:30:51 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'd file it under best practices myself. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's

[WSG] Re[2]: double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Antonio Bueno Delgado
Hello, all. Multi-message comments follow: David R: AFAIK, the all the non-markup specific entities (ie: the ones that aren't: quot;, amp;, lt;, gt;) have been depreciated, if not removed, from XHTML2.0 since being based on XML means Unicode should be used. While the W3C says should not be

Re: [WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System

2005-01-23 Thread Neerav
David Perhaps you misunderstood, I just read this article and posted an excerpt + link. The congrats and/or brickbats should go to Gez Lemon of juicystudio.com :-) Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts

Advantage of word-wrapping? (was: Re: [WSG] double space after period)

2005-01-23 Thread Jeroen Visser [ vizi ]
David R wrote: I do have a relevant question relating to this problem: Is there any advantage in word-wrapping markup'd paragraphs? The most important situation in which word-wrapping is useful is with justified text. Good word-wrapping prevents awkward word spacing in such text, rendering it

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Kornel Lesinski
How about using en/em-space instead of regular space? http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for

RE: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Joe.Huggins
My understanding is that the double spacing after a period is no longer necessary in any document, web or paper. The double space was used to compensate for the fixed spacing of the old typewriter. Since every character received the same space the double space created enough white for the eye to

[WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?

2005-01-23 Thread David R
I was referring to wrapping text on the markup site: Like so: pHello, this is wrapped, like so, do you see?/p rather than: pHello, this is wrapped, like so, do you see?/p In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I

Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?

2005-01-23 Thread Kornel Lesinski
In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column or something myth. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread Wayne Godfrey
I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It may or may not be grammatically correct,

[WSG] CSS Footers

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Hey guys I'm in a muddle here... I'm using CSS to absolutely position my columns, because if I floated them I'd have to re-order my XHTML structure: Presently its like this: (uber-simplification) body !-- Wrappers used for column backgrounds-- div id=wrapper1 div id=wrapper2 div id=nav ul

RE: [WSG] CSS Footers

2005-01-23 Thread Mike Pepper
Hi David, You could apply clear: both; to the footer element. Presuming the code is as the pseudo code you illustrate. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] CSS Footers

2005-01-23 Thread Kim Kruse
Hi David, Couldn't you take the footer out of the wrapper... /div /div !-- end wrapper -- div id=footer pfooter stuff/p /div Kim David R wrote: Hey guys I'm in a muddle here... I'm using CSS to absolutely position my columns, because if I floated them I'd have to re-order my XHTML structure:

Re: [WSG] CSS Footers

2005-01-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear floating boxes? Many options available, including setting all three columns to float:left and the footer to clear: both. This solves both your column order and footer issues. Absolute positioning will always have downsides such as

Re: [WSG] double space after period

2005-01-23 Thread john
Thank you for all your replies to this. My client has a PhD in Linguistics, and asked that I do this. I have since emailed him, citing many of your emails, and he changed his mind. Thanks again! ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without

[WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Juha-Markku Liikala
Hi, This is my first post on this wonderful list. I have a major problem with IE6. Try to visit this page: http://www.juhaliikala.com It validates perfectly and works with Firefox and Netscape without any problems...but with IE. Well, for me anyway, it returns only a blank white page with the

[WSG] Gap in IE

2005-01-23 Thread Christoph Mandl
Hello, i'm new to the group and have two problems with a site i'm working on. Perhaps someone could have a look at it. First: there is a gap of 2px between the header and the menu (only in IE. Opera7 and FF work fine). Second: when I put an image (the small arrow) into list-elements of the

[WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Juha-Markku Liikala
Hi, This is my first post on this wonderful list. I have a major problem with IE6. Try to visit this page: http://www.juhaliikala.com It validates perfectly and works with Firefox and Netscape without any problems...but with IE. Well, for me anyway, it returns only a blank white page with the

Re: [WSG] Gap in IE

2005-01-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
To answer your second question, place the arrow as a background image inside the li element rather than inline. Gives you more control over placement and keeps unnecessary images out of markup. More here on background images in lists: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/introduction.htm Russ

Re: [WSG] CSS Footers

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Kim Kruse wrote: Hi David, Couldn't you take the footer out of the wrapper... /div /div !-- end wrapper -- div id=footer pfooter stuff/p /div No, because the height of the wrapper isn't affected by the height of the sidebars because they're positioned absolutely. I've tried making all 3

Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Juha-Markku Liikala
I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't work with any of my friends computers either... this is so weird... Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland

Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Leslie Riggs
Sometimes simply clearing my browser cache does the trick for me - although I'm sure you've already tried this. Leslie Riggs I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't work with any of my friends computers either... this is so weird... Juha-Markku

Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Juha-Markku Liikala
Ok, problem solved...well kind of. I removed a my blog php-script from the page and now it seems to work just fine... Thanks anyway :) Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland

RE: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Wybrow, Mark
We had this problem too ... It had something to do with the Proxy server ... If you view the source ... Do you just get the two tags HTML/HTML nothing inbetween? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leslie Riggs Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005

Re[2]: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Christoph Mandl
Hello Liikala, try to leave out the first line of your code: ?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' ? Perhaps IE goes to Quirks Mode because of that line... -- Cheers, Christoph on Sunday, January 23, 2005, 10:53:28 PM you wrote: JML I can't figure out what can be causing the problem,

Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page

2005-01-23 Thread Terrence Wood
It sounds like the IE6 session bug...in that case try adding: header(Cache-control: private); // IE 6 Fix. after a session_start() call if there is one, or anywhere before sending output to the browser. Terrence Wood. Juha-Markku Liikala wrote: Ok, problem solved...well kind of. I removed a my

Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?

2005-01-23 Thread Michael Cordover
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:23:58 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column or

[WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?

2005-01-23 Thread Helen . Rysavy
http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer, Teaching Learning Development Charles Darwin University, Northern

RE: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?

2005-01-23 Thread Miles Tillinger
A lot less tables than before 8D but plenty of validation errors... It scares me to think of how difficult it would be to keep all of the content compliant when there's so much 3rd party shite plugged into every page. Definitely a step in the right direction, thumbs up! Mt. -Original

Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?

2005-01-23 Thread Felix Miata
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. It needs a visit by the usability police. 41,706 bytes of CSS, and text line-height sized in subatomic px. Should any site

[WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?

2005-01-23 Thread David R
Hey guys (once again) I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. Typically, these people start off with HTML3.2 or HTML4.01 Transitional, as these are the most flexible, however they also lead to bad practices later on. Have a look at the latest

[WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Alex Katechis
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big difference. Check out the page that I'm laying out: http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html The

Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?

2005-01-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
David R wrote: I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. I'd predict that, once (if?) XHTML2.0 becomes mainstream, nobody in that target audience would code by hand, but would use WYSIWYG applications which, by that time, will have caught on to

RE: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?

2005-01-23 Thread Alex Katechis
Very interesting proposal... I agree that many beginners find tableless designs somewhat hard to grasp. Probably because they took a class in high school or college, and their teacher may have told them that its easier to use tables because they act logically. The thing is, that when people

Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?

2005-01-23 Thread Amit Karmakar
Reminds me of the post I wrote yesterday! http://www.karmakars.com/weblog/archives/2005/01/23/news_redesign On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:05:29 -0500, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this

Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Neil Patel
If you put your sidebar div above your content div the current css works out fine. Otherwise if you want to leave the same order as you have it in know you need to set a specific width for the content div to make the float: left float: right technique to work. I tested it in FF1.0. Hope this

Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?

2005-01-23 Thread Bert Doorn
G'day Very interesting proposal... I agree that many beginners find tableless designs somewhat hard to grasp. I must still be a beginner, after 6 years of web design. It's not just that it's hard to grasp, certain layouts that are easy to do with a single layout table are near-impossible with

RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Alex Katechis
Actually, that's what I was trying to avoid... I've tried changing the order of the sidebar and content, and the css works as is, but in terms of markup, I think the page would make a lot more sense structurally if the content came before, since the sidebar will (eventually) have addons (search

Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?

2005-01-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Bert Doorn wrote: I have been struggling with one particular site for a week and still can't get it to work reliably in Firefox, Opera and MSIE 5/5.5/6 (on PC, let alone MSIE Mac) at the same time. I did another version (using a single table) in less than an hour and it displays as intended in

Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Alex Katechis wrote: Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big difference. This _is_ one of the most difficult details in web design based

[WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread Maxine Sherrin
I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in IE6. Contrary to

[WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS

2005-01-23 Thread Chris Kennon
Hi, I'm looking for an open source, standards compliant CMS for an existing site. The goal is taking the current design adding it to the CMS, and proceeding as seamlessly as possible. If such a thing exists one of you has knowledge. I'm asking a lot and will have fries with it. CK

Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Neil Patel
I would agree with Gunlaug in that either number 3 or using negative margins is the way to go with your code arrangement. On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:50:15 +0100, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Katechis wrote: Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its

RE: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS

2005-01-23 Thread Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
I was just looking for something similar the other day. I am not quite sure about it yet, but have a look at Mambo (http://www.mamboserver.com/) - it is open source PHP, but I am not quite sure yet in how far it is standards compliant. HTH. -Original Message- From: Chris Kennon

Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread JohnyB
Yes, it is there to force the quirks mode. I personally prefer the XML prolog there (however I don't know why I haven't placed it in my StyleMaster template :/ ...). It works as well... More info on topic: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/about-boxmodel.htm -- Jan Brasna ::

Re: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS

2005-01-23 Thread Neil Patel
Well, you can make any of these CMS's standards compliant: Typo - Complicated but powerful eZ Publish - I recommend this but the templating system takes time to get used to Textparttern - Less powerful that some but easier integration xMambo - Aims for standards compliance I would also check out

Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Maxine Sherrin wrote: I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in

RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Alex Katechis
Great! Thanks a lot to everyone who replied... Im gonna go through the links in Gunlaug's message and read them several times each and make sure I whip my standards techniques into shape =) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Neil Patel Sent:

Re: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS

2005-01-23 Thread JohnyB
I think that Drupal.org is far better than Mambo... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/

RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...

2005-01-23 Thread Alex Katechis
You may want to look at http://www.drupal.org looks pretty good, quite extensible, etc... Never tried it, but I've seen some people make some very artistic layouts, and if Im not mistaken, the default layout that ships with drupal is XHTML/CSS compliant... not bad, but it doesn't work with PHP5

Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Maxine Sherrin wrote: I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in

Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread JohnyB
I think it is a lot easier to treat all IE/win (5+) as one and the same, so I always use the ?xml... prolog. Me too. I also prefer to throw all IE/Win into one basket... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ |

Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?

2005-01-23 Thread Maxine Sherrin
On 24/01/2005, at 1:40 PM, JohnyB wrote: I think it is a lot easier to treat all IE/win (5+) as one and the same, so I always use the ?xml... prolog. OK, will prolly do this, Although being the postmodernist that I am, I'm quite enjoying the doc as it is now, with a comment which refers to the

[WSG] Horizontal list width

2005-01-23 Thread Williams, Cara
Hi Everyone, Im wanting to re-create my horizontal navigation the semantically correct way by using an unordered list. Is it possible to make it liquid (span the width of the browser window or container)? At the moment it seems the browser displays each li at the same width of the largest li.

Re: [WSG] Horizontal list width

2005-01-23 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
Williams, Cara wrote: ... Is it possible to make it liquid (span the width of the browser window or container)? At the moment it seems the browser displays each li at the same width of the largest li. ... Try using % widths for the li. ** The

Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?

2005-01-23 Thread heretic
I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. Mmm, I had a pleasant surprise; followed by disappointment; followed by a rude shock; followed by sustained aggravation. Pleasant surprise: hey, looks nice. Disappointment: not a