Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan

Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I've been asked if there are useful university-focused
textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching
accessible web design.


Hi Laura, if you didn't know already, these are superb live resources in 
addition to books:


http://www.accessify.com/
http://www.accessifyforum.com
http://www.gawds.org/

Books don't debate best practice like more dynamic sources so I'd be careful 
how they were used by students. That's not to say they aren't extremely 
useful though. Perhaps the WCAG would be the place to start along with case 
studies to demonstrate practical technique - contrary to the myth its pretty 
easy to read (and even easier with a tutor explaining as you go) 
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/. There's also a working draft of the WCAG 2.0 
too: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/. Supplementing that with judicious samples 
from the sites listed to flesh out the practice of accessible design based 
around the WCAG etc would top it off nicely.


The RNIB has good resources on web practice:
http://www.rnib.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_rnib003460.hcsp
also a useful article on UK law:
http://www.thepickards.co.uk/Articles/The_DDA_and_IT.cfm

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread csslist
its designed to fit on a 800 x 600 and it fits right down to the bottom of the scroll area, sure the bottom of the reels arent showing and thats fine.  "So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in order to get to the content. Cute." Ok smart ass, thats 1 page that has a vertical scroller because I havent resized the flash form on that 1 FRICKIN page, so there is a scroll bar, geezo From: Gunlaug Srtun [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 2:57 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problemscsslist wrote: and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big long pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so  your answer would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether you like it or not.So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in orderto get to the content. Cute.Seriously, what windows/screens is that design meant to fit on? Georg-- http://www.gunlaug.no**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**


Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan

csslist wrote:

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in order
to get to the content. Cute.
Ok smart ass, thats 1 page that has a vertical scroller because I havent 
resized the flash form on that 1 FRICKIN page, so there is a scroll bar, 
geezo


Personal insults are not necessary. Gunlaug is correct. At 800x600 you have 
to scroll vertically and horizontally to even see the whole of your main 
content div. This is an EXACT 800x600 px screenshot without taking in to 
account other native elements that will be below / to the site of the 
browser window: http://gr0w.com/test/img/800x600.jpg (115.84 KB). Even if, 
as you state, the site is designed to fit within 800x600 screen resolution, 
it won't.


Not only that but every empty href you have will be a dead link with 
javascript turned off. That's potentially about 10% of your audience. There 
are simple ways to have them degrade gracefully.


Some people are taking the time to make suggestions. Granted you asked about 
a specific issue however, if you don't like what they have to say feel free 
to ignore it rather than acting like a child and spitting your dummy out at 
the list. Nothing that anyone has said so far would stop your client getting 
more business. In fact, it would do the opposite by making the site better. 
Perhaps part of all of our jobs is doing what we're asked by clients, but 
perhaps part of it is advising our clients when what they want is a 
hindrance to their business. In any event, by reacting so ungraciously to 
input, I doubt it will encourage further assistance with your problem.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com


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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
On 11/25/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 its designed to fit on a 800 x 600 and it fits right down to the bottom of
 the scroll area, sure the bottom of the reels arent showing and thats fine.


This is a 1:1 image of my browser viewport:
http://space.rdpdesign.com/reels.jpg

Notice the height of the viewport: 536 pixels. That's 64 pixels less than 600.

My laptop is a 15 widescreen. The default resolution for readable
text is 1280 x 768 pixels. My browser has the title bar, menu bar,
address bar, links bar, one toolbar, tabs, and the status bar at the
bottom. Then there's the thick windows bar below it. That accounts for
the 132 pixels of lost screen estate. Considering the popularity of
browser toolbars and tabbed browsing (soon to be standard in IE7) as
well as the popularity of widescreen displays (and even standard
displays at 768 pixels height), I'd say this layout isn't going to
work. You can take the feedback as constructive and revisit the
design, or you can ignore it, but if you choose to ignore it then this
isn't the list for you.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-26 Thread Alan Trick
Since your at a univeristy you might as well take the time to go over
the some of the more theoretical stuff. This is particlularly a good ida
if your talking to CS students who are more interested in that kind of
thing.

Probably one of most important things is Semantics. Paricularly the
separation of style and content, although semantics covers a lot more
too. Of course don't over do it (join the www-html list on w3.org for
examples :P) but I htink it will give the students a firm foundation for
a lot of the whys behind how things are done.

As far as server side languages like PHP, JSP, and the other
abominations - I think that probably belongs in another course. Mainly
because there is a lot of stuff that needs to be covered here
(particularly security issues). If the students haven't done at least
some programming you might find that either 1) it ends up becoming a
second Introduction to Programming 101 or 2) the students won't have a
clue as to what they're doing and will get more confused because there
is an extra layer they don't understand.

Alan Trick

On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 00:06 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are two magazines out of the UK that sometimes offer tutorials
 that you can use in the classrom. One is called WebDesigner and the
 other is called Practical Web Projects
 http://www.paragon.co.uk/wd/index.htm
 http://www.paragon.co.uk/pwp/index.htm
 
 If you want to teach web design from a standards perspective, there are
 three books listed in the right hand column of my blog at
 http://www.netmix.com/wordpress, along with other books that I singled
 out from Amazon that might be useful to you. One is Jeffrey Zeldman's
 Designing with Web Standards.
 
 I also recommend starting to look into Open Source products, like Typo3,
 Mambo and other Open Source Content Management systems.
 
 Web designers need to learn how to design around open source module
 macros.
 
 For example, Movable Type, Wordpress and other blog systems are all open
 source CMS tools. A web designer is going to need to think about how to
 create templates based on the functionality of these CMS systems. The
 ones I mentioned are php/mySql, but there are other that are Java, ASP
 and JSP as well.
 
 A good resource to get open source CMS tools is opensourcecms.com.
 
 I have yet to find a book that teaches you how to actually think about
 design, fontography and layout, then bring you into HTML production,
 then bring you along into database integration. Since all these methods
 are disparate from each other, but depend on each other, most books
 usually focus on how to's rather than to think creatively.
 
 Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but believe me, I've been looking.
 
 In the local Barnes  Noble, there have been many books published that
 you can find in the Graphic Design section, which showcase high end web
 design. That may also be a place to look as well.
 
 Tony Z.
 
 
 
 
 Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/26/2005, 01:04:35 AM:
   I've been asked if there are useful university-focused
   textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching
   accessible web design.
  
  As Lloyd and Matthew mentioned Joe Clark's Building Accessible 
  Websites, New Riders Publishing, 2002 is well worth considering.
  
  I have been using it for the web accessibility classes that I teach. 
  The Clark book does not assume the reader understands the basics of web 
  accessibility. I specifically chose it because of that and because it 
  goes beyond simply repeating the party line from the World Wide Web 
  Consortium (W3C) or Section 508. That is one of the purposes of the 
  classes - to not just read the specifications, but actively engage 
  them. Challenge, dissect, understand, and learn what makes the most 
  sense. Also Joe put the whole book online[1] so if students don't want 
  to purchase it for the class they don't have too.  However, the soft 
  cover version of the online book has screen shots and images. The 
  online version does not.
  
  The Web Design Reference [2] is a huge online mega-reference (over 
  3,000 links) of information and articles about web design and 
  development that you might find useful. It has a full section on books 
  [3] as well as online resources (accessibility, CSS, usability, web 
  standards, and many related topics are covered).
  
  You might also find the Web Design Update Newsletter [4] helpful. It is 
  a plain text email digest that typically goes out once a week as an 
  adjunct to the site.
  
  All the Best,
  Laura
  
  [1] http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/
  [2] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
  [3] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/books#access
  [4] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdevlist
  
  ___
  Laura L. Carlson
  Information Technology Systems and Services
  University of Minnesota Duluth
  Duluth, MN  55812-3009
  http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/


Re: [WSG] xhtml doctypes and charsets

2005-11-26 Thread Alan Trick
My personal feeling is that you should be using the HTML 4.01 doctype.
Your not going to achive anything by using an XHTML doctype and it's
technically invalid. Remember *every User Agent will (and should) treat
your code as HTML*. If you put a skirt on a man it won't make him a
woman. Weather or not a page is HTML/XTHML is determined entirely by the
mime-type.

Also there's nothing wrong with using HTML. I think the standards people
have gotten a bit confussed on this one. HTML is a W3C recomendation -
it's been around for a while and will still be around for a long time -
there's not reason to worry about future proof with HTML.

The other thing is that I don't think anybody besides the odd bot ever
looks at those meta tags. That information belongs in your http headers.

Alan Trick

On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 10:46 -0400, The Snider's Web wrote:
 Hi Everyone,
 
 I am going to delurk to ask a question :)
 
 I have been using html 4.01 transitional on my sites and have slowly 
 branched out to xhtml. However, I remember that there has been some 
 discussion on other lists about the 'dangers' of using xhtml. Here is what 
 I have seen used, what would be the pluses and minuses of using this combo?
 
 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
 html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /
 
 I usually use this charset:
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
 
 Any links or advice would be much appreciated.
 
 Cheers
 Lisa 
 
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[WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)

2005-11-26 Thread Web Man Walking
Title: Dragon Way (Site Check)






Hello


I have developed a site for a client and all seems fine, compliant, etc. works ace in IE and FF. I dont have a MAC and client is complaining of:

1. Homepage - Text under dolls is not centred

2. Homepage - No logo showing

3. Rest of site - Top bar missing

4. Rest of site - dolls (same as 1.)

5. Slow


Can anyone help, take a quick look for me? This is my first post after lurking for a while :-)


http://test.dragon-way.com/


Any other comments would be ace.


Thank you.


Regards


Ed Henderson


Web Man Walking - web design  usability experts

t: 0131 669 8800

m: 0781 253 6964

f: 0797 062 1532

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

w: web-man-walking.com

a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN

New technology, old fashioned service





Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread csslist
"I could show you a million websites with the background graphic positioned at the bottom of the content."gee, really??? now wayyy!!! I don't recall asking you for your opinon on it and I didn't ask for a site check and unless you are paying the bill for the site then I will listen to the people that are.  "Why not split that background image up and do like the rest of them do?" Because they didnt frickin want that, we didnt want that type of design (which btw~ was the first one i did). We didn't want long scrolling pages, they wanted scrolling within the screen size, is that ok with you master?  "The page does not fit within my browser." Well its the way they wanted it too fit, is that ok with you or should i have consulted with you first?  Sorry to be an ass but I asked a question for a problem not for you to tell the people what they want. I did want to cut the bg up, i wanted to do a lot of things that i couldn't and unless you know the facts don't dictate how it "should" be done, you aren't paying for it and those "issues" have all been brought up.  Your sites are a perfect example of what they didn't want, yours may make sense to you but it doesn't mean you're right.  And yet you have offered nothing yet to help with the question, so why answer? From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 2:57 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems and if you take the overflow out the content just flows right on out over the bg and right down the page that would beautiful wouldnt itI could show you a million websites with the background graphicpositioned at the bottom of the content. Why not split that backgroundimage up and do like the rest of them do? and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big long pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so your answer would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether you like it or not.The page does not fit within my browser. And I'm using one of thosevery popular widescreen laptops that is very short vertically. So itis not a matter of preference.Christian Montoyachristianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**


Re: [WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

2005-11-26 Thread Dejan Kozina
I do use @charset (utf-8); even if it actually serves no purpose: some 
time ago I've put it in my default CSS template file and never cared 
about it anymore...


You can safely remove the BOM from any utf-8 document, as it serves no 
purpose: http://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#29.


If your Unicode text editor doesn't allow to save your file without it, 
just open the file in a plain text editor and delete the first two 
characters: it won't mess the remaining text.


djn

Gene Falck wrote:

Hi Paul and Russ,

Paul wrote:

And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) 
that

some editors add to the document?



I see you already have some replies on this BOM bit.

For looking over your file format (and also simply
deleting the BOM) you might also try a utility like
XVI32.exe which displays your file character by
character along side the hex values. Anything that
your editor puts before the DOCTYPE will put you
into quirks mode so the BOM (and anything else the
editor inserted at the beginning of the file) can
and probably should be deleted.

I like XVI32 a lot because I don't have a lot of
files to run in batch and I was curious what was
happening.

Regards,

Gene Falck
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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--
Dejan Kozina
Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225
http://www.kozina.com/  - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Marco van Hylckama Vlieg

Hiya all,

I've been working in my free time for over a month to create the best  
possible standards compliant theme for the Typo weblog system. It's  
an entry for the Typo theme contest.


My template is valid XHTML 1.0 Strict and should work in a very large  
amount of browsers. I still have a problem with MSIE 5.2 for Mac. It  
simply crashes. IE 5.0 on PC is visually fine but throws Javascript  
errors. There's a sort of ugly but functioning fallback for non-ajax  
commenting in IE 5.0 because of the non-working javascript.


My question: What do you guys think of the template, do you spot any  
problems in certain browsers and

is there a way to get it to behave in MSIE 5.2 for mac?

Any advice that may improve standards compatibility is appreciated.  
It would be really cool if I could MSIE for mac to at least visually  
function.


The address:

http://www.w3-labs.com/

Thanks in advance!

Marco
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RE: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Stephen Stagg








Actually, a workaround has been proposed
for your specific problem (see earlier in the thread). If Ive read your
post correctly, you have ignored common accessibility and layout standards/conventions
to create a static design and then want the standards group list to help you
work around the ensuing issues and then you get snotty when people point out
that youre site doesnt follow standards. Are you posting to the
right group?? 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist
Sent: 25 November 2005 08:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] menu
suggestions and problems





I could show you
a million websites with the background graphic positioned at the bottom of the
content.
gee, really??? now wayyy!!! I don't recall asking you for your opinon on it and
I didn't ask for a site check and unless you are paying the bill for the site
then I will listen to the people that are.

Why not split that background image up and do like the rest
of them do?
Because they didnt frickin want that, we didnt want that type of design (which
btw~ was the first one i did). We didn't want long scrolling pages, they wanted
scrolling within the screen size, is that ok with you master?

The page does not fit within my browser.
Well its the way they wanted it too fit, is that ok with you or should i have
consulted with you first?

Sorry to be an ass but I asked a question for a problem not for you to tell the
people what they want. I did want to cut the bg up, i wanted to do a lot of
things that i couldn't and unless you know the facts don't dictate how it
should be done, you aren't paying for it and those
issues have all been brought up.

Your sites are a perfect example of what they didn't want, yours may make sense
to you but it doesn't mean you're right.

And yet you have offered nothing yet to help with the question, so why answer?







From:
Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005
2:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] menu
suggestions and problems

 and if you take the overflow out the content just flows right on out over
 the bg and right down the page that would beautiful wouldnt it


I could show you a million websites with the background graphic
positioned at the bottom of the content. Why not split that background
image up and do like the rest of them do?

 and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big long
 pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so your answer
 would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether you like it or
 not.


The page does not fit within my browser. And I'm using one of those
very popular widescreen laptops that is very short vertically. So it
is not a matter of preference.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]

2005-11-26 Thread Michael Wilson

Chris Kennon wrote:

I've adopted the philosophy, drop down menus are a surrogate for  
detailed Information Architecture.  Sub-navigation should be  
introduced on internal pages to navigate sub-sections. Before passing  
this along to clients as mantra, I thought seeking the advice of the  
participants of the list advantageous.


Hi,

I've used drop down menus on many sites, but in the end I've always 
wished I hadn't. I no longer use them. They /can/ be useful for return 
visitors who are familiar with the content of your site because fewer 
clicks are required to get to specific content, but for first time users 
or users who are less attentive, they tend to be less productive. Users 
tend to spend more time searching menus and making guesses, than it 
would take to simply click through an intuitive top-level navigation. I 
also prefer a top-level only type navigation because it gives me more 
opportunities to present content and information to the user. A drop 
down menu such as the following:


Solutions
solution 1
solution 2
solution 3
solution 4

is generally less effective and informative than a top level link that 
leads to a topic page that provides a brief overview of each solution. 
This is a better overall value for the organization, more informative to 
the user, and more effective for search engine optimization.


As for screen clutter, I haven't found drop down menus to very helpful 
in this regard either. Generally, the links usually contained in the 
sub-navigation of a drop down are represented on the topic page as 
contextual navigation, essentially accomplishing the same clutter 
control as a drop down menu might.


I can't really think of any good reason to use a drop down menu other 
than a /possible/ reduction in clicks for the user.


Best regards,
Michael Wilson
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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya

 My question: What do you guys think of the template,

Great!

 do you spot any
 problems in certain browsers

In FF 1.5, when I hover over the links on the right, the pop out to
the left 1 pixel. When I scroll down and back up, they are fine again.
I'm not sure if this is an FF problem or something that can be fixed
in the css, it might be a rounding error. Just wanted to mention it in
case those judges are really picky.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Bernard Sandberg



Hiya all,
My question: What do you guys think of the template, do you spot any
problems in certain browsers and
is there a way to get it to behave in MSIE 5.2 for mac?
My experience is that with Fx 1.0.7, the text seems quite unreadable 
and blurry.
I don't know if this is intentional, but it sure makes me have to 
really concentrate on reading!

The same issue also applies to IE6.
Also, with the links I'm experiencing a sort of a lag when hovering 
over them in IE6,
contrary to Fx, where this works just fine! The green category-text 
above the links also has the

blurry look.

Except from that, your template is very nice, good colors and a 
clean, lucid look to it! It's a 5/6 :) 


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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi Marco,

The template looks really great... but why does the text look jagged. I 
get a javascript error using W2K/FF 1.07

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Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-26 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Alan Trick wrote:

 As far as server side languages like PHP, JSP, and the other
 abominations - I think that probably belongs in another course. 

Being far removed from higher education, I'd kind of skipped this
thread but that caught my eye; the originating comment:

For example, Movable Type, Wordpress and other blog systems are all open
source CMS tools. A web designer is going to need to think about how to
create templates based on the functionality of these CMS systems. The
ones I mentioned are php/mySql, but there are other that are Java, ASP
and JSP as well.

I think it would help non-programmers to evaluate CMS/framework
software if they were at least aware of the 'MVC' design pattern
(and the concept of Design Patterns in general, for that matter).

The Model-View-Controller pattern represents a separation of data,
presentation, and business logic in the overall system, as current
(X)HTML/CSS is intended to separate data and presentation at the
View level.

Finding a template system with code interwoven through the markup,
or worse yet *generating* markup (when you see something like e.g.
print 'pbgack!/b/p';), should tip the developer that it
will be extremely painful to make substantial changes.

OTOH, a template system like e.g. 'pb${exclamation}/b/p'
will be much more flexible. Some languages lend themselves to the
latter approach more than others, but that's OT for this forum. :-)

-- 
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Marco van Hylckama Vlieg

Hmm this is funny...

There's one person reporting it's blurry while another one calls it  
jagged.

Could this have something to do with font smoothing settings?

I do know the jagged look is because of ClearType not being enabled.  
Win2k doesn't even have it
at all which will render any (especially large) text jaggy.  
Unfortunately there isn't much one can do about

that.

The lag is even stranger. I'm not experiencing it neither on my mac  
nor on my XP notebook...


Everyone thanks for the feedback so far. I do see I need to check on  
the javascript error.


- Marco


On Nov 26, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Bernard Sandberg wrote:




Hiya all,
My question: What do you guys think of the template, do you spot any
problems in certain browsers and
is there a way to get it to behave in MSIE 5.2 for mac?
My experience is that with Fx 1.0.7, the text seems quite  
unreadable and blurry.
I don't know if this is intentional, but it sure makes me have to  
really concentrate on reading!

The same issue also applies to IE6.
Also, with the links I'm experiencing a sort of a lag when  
hovering over them in IE6,
contrary to Fx, where this works just fine! The green category-text  
above the links also has the

blurry look.

Except from that, your template is very nice, good colors and a  
clean, lucid look to it! It's a 5/6 :)

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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Marco van Hylckama Vlieg
I just tried FF 1.5RC3 on my mac and I am not experiencing this  
behaviour so I guess it's indeed some sort of rounding error. It does  
fix the problem 1.0.7 has with the tags cloud in the sidebar having  
more right margin than left margin. That looks like it does in Safari  
and MSIE now, finally ;)


- Marco


On Nov 26, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:



My question: What do you guys think of the template,


Great!


do you spot any
problems in certain browsers


In FF 1.5, when I hover over the links on the right, the pop out to
the left 1 pixel. When I scroll down and back up, they are fine again.
I'm not sure if this is an FF problem or something that can be fixed
in the css, it might be a rounding error. Just wanted to mention it in
case those judges are really picky.

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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
.sidebar-node li a {
  display: block;
  margin: 0;
  width: 206px;
  background: url(../../images/theme/sidebar_linkbullet.gif) no-repeat top left;
  font-size: 11px;
  font-family: Trebuchet MS;
  color: #aaa;
  line-height: 18px;
  text-decoration: none;
  padding: 0 0 0 23px;
}

bah, pixel sizes. But what I wanted to address is that you lack a good
font-family here. You should at least try:

Trebuchet MS, trebuchet, sans-serif;

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Re: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)

2005-11-26 Thread Rick Faaberg
On 11/25/05 12:45 AM Web Man Walking [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this
out:

 I don¹t have a MAC

I do. And it's Mac, not MAC. Mac is short for Macintosh.

 1. Homepage - Text under dolls is not centred

Seems okay in Safari.
 
 2. Homepage - No logo showing

If that's the green, phallic sort of thing, seems okay in Safari.

 3. Rest of site - Top bar missing

Yeah, there's no top bar in Safari.

 5. Slow 

Slowness wouldn't be OS dependent. Slowness would be bandwidth or server
dependent, or possibly too-big-of-graphics dependent, but those would affect
all platforms. You probably know that. :-)

I didn't find the site slow in Safari on my Mac, fwiw.

Hth

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread csslist
First of all I appriciate all help I get and I can take critizism fine when I ask for it.  Ok, so if we do it your way on your browser (lets just say..) to read the page you will have to scroll the screen down and so when you want a new link you will have to scroll all the way back up to do it, where as how it is now you can scroll the content and when ready to go to new link you simply move the mouse over a tad and there you are, I'm sorry but I agree with them and think that is a much better solution than an entire page scroll, especially for their target audience.  And too add to that, their stats say well over 90% of their web site users are using a screen resolution of 800 x 600 so we made it to fit their needs to what their expectations are and we wanted to get away from the way their current site is (which is kinda like yours) where everything is shoved over to the left so on bigger browsers it only takes up half the screen which is fine but at least center the damn thing. And if 6 months from now their stats change and we need to do a new layout then big deal we do a new layout.  Again I don't mean to be a jerk but I asked a ? to a menu problem, if I woulda asked you for a site check then your responce would have been warranted but I didn't.  You need to make a site to the requirements of the audience not your personal preference.  From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 4:31 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problemsOn 11/25/05, csslist  wrote: its designed to fit on a 800 x 600 and it fits right down to the bottom of the scroll area, sure the bottom of the reels arent showing and thats fine.This is a 1:1 image of my browser viewport:http://space.rdpdesign.com/reels.jpgNotice the height of the viewport: 536 pixels. That's 64 pixels less than 600.My laptop is a 15" widescreen. The default resolution for readabletext is 1280 x 768 pixels. My browser has the title bar, menu bar,address bar, links bar, one toolbar, tabs, and the status bar at thebottom. Then there's the thick windows bar below it. That accounts forthe 132 pixels of lost screen estate. Considering the popularity ofbrowser toolbars and tabbed browsing (soon to be standard in IE7) aswell as the popularity of widescreen displays (and even standarddisplays at 768 pixels height), I'd say this layout isn't going towork. You can take the feedback as constructive and revisit thedesign, or you can ignore it, but if you choose to ignore it then thisisn't the list for you.Christian Montoyachristianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**


Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
  And yet you have offered nothing yet to help with the question, so why
 answer?

You misunderstand. My reason for telling you this is that there is
nothing you can do about your problem with the current layout. If the
client wants it that way, then that's fine, no need to argue. Just
keep in mind that the number of users that are going to use text-size
large on the page is about 1 in a thousand, and they probably won't
care. So I say just leave it like it is.

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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

csslist wrote:

and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big
 long pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so 
your answer would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether

 you like it or not.


So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in order
to get to the content. Cute.

Seriously, what windows/screens is that design meant to fit on?

Georg
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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread csslist
Then I appologize Christian, This is due like today and I'm really growchy but it's what they want and if it needs changed then we change it. I was opposed to the idea just like you are now but it's grown on me and I kinda like it. But you gotta remember we are targettting their main audience which is on 800 x 600. I have a pc xp (puke) set up here set to the specs they gave me, 800 x 600, ie6, ff with med to large fonts and actually it looks pretty good on it. This is the one i did before this one http://www.elkhornflyrods.com/store/index.cfm  As you can see (well its not perfect css by any means, had a 2 week deadline) but I took 1 image cut it into 3 parts (header, body, footer) actually u can see my gradiant mistake lol and the header randomly rotates but thats just not how this one wanted it.  So I know what you are saying but its just not happening on this one. I wish the menu section was a bit wide but there is no time right now to do it as there are 2 sites due and both have same layout with diff color schemes.  From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 4:39 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems And yet you have offered nothing yet to help with the question, so why answer?You misunderstand. My reason for telling you this is that there isnothing you can do about your problem with the current layout. If theclient wants it that way, then that's fine, no need to argue. Justkeep in mind that the number of users that are going to use text-sizelarge on the page is about 1 in a thousand, and they probably won'tcare. So I say just leave it like it is.Christian Montoyachristianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**


Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
 and if you take the overflow out the content just flows right on out over
 the bg and right down the page that would beautiful wouldnt it


I could show you a million websites with the background graphic
positioned at the bottom of the content. Why not split that background
image up and do like the rest of them do?

  and I know what you are saying but we didn't want the pages to be big long
 pages it needed to fit within the browser(and NOT scroll), so your answer
 would depned upon how you want the website to be, whether you like it or
 not.


The page does not fit within my browser. And I'm using one of those
very popular widescreen laptops that is very short vertically. So it
is not a matter of preference.

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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
On 11/26/05, Marco van Hylckama Vlieg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It's gotta be pixel sized or it will screw up big time when the
 letters get bigger than the area they're in.
 What's so wrong with pixel size anyway?

 Just out of curiosity...


Actually, the list items are fine when I resize them. I could take a
snapshot of it to show you. The headers, however, are not. You could
make the headers more robust by making them work the same way the list
items do, and then you won't need pixels for the text.

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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
I could have sworn I got all these e-mails last night, what's going on?!?

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Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan
On Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:53 PM, Christian Montoya 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I could have sworn I got all these e-mails last night, what's going on?!?


Ditto. 


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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread marco
What exactly do you mean by 'making them work the same way the list items
do' ?

And yes, a screenshot would be nice because I can't see any problem
neither on my PC nor on my mac

Thanks in advance,

Marco


 On 11/26/05, Marco van Hylckama Vlieg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It's gotta be pixel sized or it will screw up big time when the
 letters get bigger than the area they're in.
 What's so wrong with pixel size anyway?

 Just out of curiosity...


 Actually, the list items are fine when I resize them. I could take a
 snapshot of it to show you. The headers, however, are not. You could
 make the headers more robust by making them work the same way the list
 items do, and then you won't need pixels for the text.

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Re: [WSG] site check: theme for Typo

2005-11-26 Thread Christian Montoya
On 11/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What exactly do you mean by 'making them work the same way the list items
 do' ?

 And yes, a screenshot would be nice because I can't see any problem
 neither on my PC nor on my mac

 Thanks in advance,

 Marco


Here you go: http://space.rdpdesign.com/typo.jpg

This is at 1 step above larger, though it's noticeable at larger
too. See, the links in the list are contained, because you didn't
specify a height for those list item. But the headers are not, they
overflow the container. If you don't specify a height for those
headers, and center their background, they'll resize nicely just like
the links do, and you will have a robust sidebar. Then you can even
have the sidebar resize when the text-size buttons at the top are
clicked, which is what I think judges and users will expect. Besides,
the w3c discourages mixing pixel and font sizes.

I know it's a fine detail, but isn't that what we love on this list?

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RE: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)

2005-11-26 Thread bill
Title: Dragon Way (Site Check)










Hi Ed,

I dont have a Mac so couldnt
look at the site. I did want to offer a comment, though, about point #1 (non-centered
text).



I viewed it on a variety of browsers on PC.
Technically, I guess, the client is correct: the text isnt centerd. The
entire image is centered in the window. Since the logo on the left is a drawing,
the actual text  Dragon Way
 is visually off to the right. And because of the color difference between
logo and text, the text part seems (to me) to be heavier and draws my eye more,
so it isnt centered. 



Id check that out with the client before
pulling much hair out over it :-) Of course, if he means its appearing flush
left or right, that would be another issue. But as someone else already said, youd
know that. 



I wont comment further on the rest of
the site since you already said its working great in the FF and IE; it is
here, too. (And in Op and NS). Generally, I like the site. Its well
built and has a nice fresh feel to it.



HTH,

Bil Scheider











Hello


I
have developed a site for a client and all seems fine, compliant, etc. works
ace in IE and FF. I dont have a MAC and client is complaining of:

1.
Homepage - Text under dolls is not centred 
2.
Homepage - No logo showing 
3.
Rest of site - Top bar missing 
4.
Rest of site - dolls (same as 1.) 
5.
Slow 

Can
anyone help, take a quick look for me? This is my first post after
lurking for a while :-) 

http://test.dragon-way.com/


Any other comments would be ace. 

Thank
you. 

Regards


Ed
Henderson 

Web
Man Walking - web design  usability experts 
t: 0131 669 8800 
m: 0781 253 6964 
f: 0797 062 1532 
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

w: web-man-walking.com

a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN

New
technology, old fashioned service 








RE: [WSG] Positioning Image problems

2005-11-26 Thread bill
Hi there Kevin,

I downloaded your page to take a closer look at it. The waterservices site
wasn't available to me at the moment (though I did see it earlier today),
but the greenacres site, specifically the page with the photo, was tough to
wade through. So, I ran it through the validater (http://validator.w3.org).
There were 55 errors on the page! 

Validating is the first place to start with troubleshooting any page. That
tells us that at least the problem isn't with our markup, then we can start
looking at the css, browser idiosyncracies or other possible causes. The
other thing I noticed was the ?xml. declaration above the DOCTYPE
declaration. Having anything above that will cause IE to render in quirks
mode; I've solved quite a few baffling problems by simply removing that
?xml. statement.

Looking at your markup, I also wondered why you used br [which in your
DOCTYPE should be br/ so often? Using the p tag to markup that text
would eliminate just about every br in your document.

After you validate your page, if you're still having problems with that
positioning, I'd be happy to take a look at it. Chances are good, though,
that it'll 'fix itself' :-)

Bill Scheider  



I have to problems at the moment which have me stumped, both to do with
positioning images.

Thanks for any help


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Re: [WSG] xhtml doctypes and charsets

2005-11-26 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Alan Trick wrote:

On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 10:46 -0400, The Snider's Web wrote:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;

html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;

meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /


The meta element is effectively useless in XHTML, assuming you're 
serving it with the right MIME type.  If you're serving it as text/html, 
then you may as well be using HTML 4.



The other thing is that I don't think anybody besides the odd bot ever
looks at those meta tags. That information belongs in your http headers.


However, for text/html, in the absence of the information in a higher 
level transport protocol (like HTTP), browsers do look for encoding 
information within that meta element.  Of course, it is preferred that 
such information occur in the HTTP headers (it is also a trivial 
exercise to configure your server properly to do that), but that meta 
element is better than nothing.


For XHTML, application/xhtml+xml is the preferred MIME type and it's 
best to include encoding information within the XML declaration.


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=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Re:_[WSG]_Re:_University_textbook_or_other_resources??=

2005-11-26 Thread tonyzeoli

Here are two sites that I love:

W3Schools - Decent online tutorials:
http://www.w3schools.com/

StyleMaster - Excellent CSS Web Site building tool. Like it much better
than using Dreamweaver for CSS:
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/

Good tutorial on positioning using stylemaster, etc...


Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/26/2005, 03:34:45 PM:
 Since your at a univeristy you might as well take the time to go over
 the some of the more theoretical stuff. This is particlularly a good ida
 if your talking to CS students who are more interested in that kind of
 thing.
 
 Probably one of most important things is Semantics. Paricularly the
 separation of style and content, although semantics covers a lot more
 too. Of course don't over do it (join the www-html list on w3.org for
 examples :P) but I htink it will give the students a firm foundation for
 a lot of the whys behind how things are done.
 
 As far as server side languages like PHP, JSP, and the other
 abominations - I think that probably belongs in another course. Mainly
 because there is a lot of stuff that needs to be covered here
 (particularly security issues). If the students haven't done at least
 some programming you might find that either 1) it ends up becoming a
 second Introduction to Programming 101 or 2) the students won't have a
 clue as to what they're doing and will get more confused because there
 is an extra layer they don't understand.
 
 Alan Trick
 
 On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 00:06 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  There are two magazines out of the UK that sometimes offer tutorials
  that you can use in the classrom. One is called WebDesigner and the
  other is called Practical Web Projects
  http://www.paragon.co.uk/wd/index.htm
  http://www.paragon.co.uk/pwp/index.htm
  
  If you want to teach web design from a standards perspective, there are
  three books listed in the right hand column of my blog at
  http://www.netmix.com/wordpress, along with other books that I singled
  out from Amazon that might be useful to you. One is Jeffrey Zeldman's
  Designing with Web Standards.
  
  I also recommend starting to look into Open Source products, like Typo3,
  Mambo and other Open Source Content Management systems.
  
  Web designers need to learn how to design around open source module
  macros.
  
  For example, Movable Type, Wordpress and other blog systems are all open
  source CMS tools. A web designer is going to need to think about how to
  create templates based on the functionality of these CMS systems. The
  ones I mentioned are php/mySql, but there are other that are Java, ASP
  and JSP as well.
  
  A good resource to get open source CMS tools is opensourcecms.com.
  
  I have yet to find a book that teaches you how to actually think about
  design, fontography and layout, then bring you into HTML production,
  then bring you along into database integration. Since all these methods
  are disparate from each other, but depend on each other, most books
  usually focus on how to's rather than to think creatively.
  
  Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but believe me, I've been looking.
  
  In the local Barnes  Noble, there have been many books published that
  you can find in the Graphic Design section, which showcase high end web
  design. That may also be a place to look as well.
  
  Tony Z.
  
  
  
  
  Laura Carlson  wrote on 11/26/2005, 01:04:35 AM:
I've been asked if there are useful university-focused
textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching
accessible web design.
   
   As Lloyd and Matthew mentioned Joe Clark's Building Accessible 
   Websites, New Riders Publishing, 2002 is well worth considering.
   
   I have been using it for the web accessibility classes that I teach. 
   The Clark book does not assume the reader understands the basics of web 
   accessibility. I specifically chose it because of that and because it 
   goes beyond simply repeating the party line from the World Wide Web 
   Consortium (W3C) or Section 508. That is one of the purposes of the 
   classes - to not just read the specifications, but actively engage 
   them. Challenge, dissect, understand, and learn what makes the most 
   sense. Also Joe put the whole book online[1] so if students don't want 
   to purchase it for the class they don't have too.  However, the soft 
   cover version of the online book has screen shots and images. The 
   online version does not.
   
   The Web Design Reference [2] is a huge online mega-reference (over 
   3,000 links) of information and articles about web design and 
   development that you might find useful. It has a full section on books 
   [3] as well as online resources (accessibility, CSS, usability, web 
   standards, and many related topics are covered).
   
   You might also find the Web Design Update Newsletter [4] helpful. It is 
   a plain text email digest that typically goes out once a week as an 
   adjunct to the site.
   
   All the Best,
   Laura