Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

[Breton Slivka]

The iPhone has a 5mb upper limit per page. I think the ipad's limit is 10mb but 
I am not sure. So in other words, no. 

-Breton  

On 09/08/2010, at 2:55 PM, Andrew Harris  wrote:

> Hi all, I'm asking around the traps on a question which has come up at work.
> 
> We want to develop an iPad app to will allow users to download from a
> website (like a synch) large quantities (hundreds of MB) of documents
> (pdf and word) for reading offline.
> 
> Is the offline storage tool in HTML5 designed for this sort of heavy lifting?
> are there storage limitations?
> on an iPad?
> 
> I've found a few examples of the tool in action and read bits and
> pieces, but it all seems to be about storing small chunks of data, not
> humunguous great whumps of it.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Harris
> and...@woowoowoo.com
> http://www.woowoowoo.com
> 
> ~~~ <*>< ~~~
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

To counter my point and support yours though, setting a width on the P
tag also makes the elements clickable. Which does seem to suggest that
the P tag extends vertically down further than its border suggests it
does.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Breton Slivka  wrote:
> So you think that there's an invisible part to the aragraph that is
> not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to
> development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this,
> don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up.
> In the broken version, try clicking on the  using the IE developer
> tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've
> hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body
> tag.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte
>  wrote:
>>> I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
>>> updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
>>> which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
>>> disconfirming your conclusions.
>>
>> Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug.
>>
>> I still think I am correct. The aragraph is still on top of the  even
>> if it is not covering all the list elements.
>>
>> I created another version where all I did was add a "clear:both" to the
>> paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here:
>> http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Kepler Gelotte
>> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

So you think that there's an invisible part to the aragraph that is
not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to
development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this,
don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up.
In the broken version, try clicking on the  using the IE developer
tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've
hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body
tag.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
>> I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
>> updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
>> which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
>> disconfirming your conclusions.
>
> Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug.
>
> I still think I am correct. The aragraph is still on top of the  even
> if it is not covering all the list elements.
>
> I created another version where all I did was add a "clear:both" to the
> paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here:
> http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

Then perhaps you would care to explain why this document:

http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest2.htm

activates standards mode, when the table you've linked to suggests
that it should be in quirks mode?

for comparison, here's a typical html 4.0 strict doctype:

http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest1.htm

I would conclude that the page you've linked to does not reflect
reality. What would you conclude?


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Rimantas Liubertas  wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is
>> that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all.
>
> This is not correct.
>
>> The only thing it looks for is the string > of the document, which decides whether it goes into quirksmode or not.
>
> Rendering mode does depend on the doctype:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic2
>
> <...>
>
> Regards,
> Rimantas
> --
> http://rimantas.com/
>
>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
disconfirming your conclusions.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
>> On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
>> the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
>> clickable, but which should be clickable.
>
> The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
> and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
> link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
> 100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.
>
> To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
> borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html
>
> If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
> you will see the view cart link moving up and down.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Joseph Taylor  wrote:
> I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues
> beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:
>
>  "http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";>
> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>
>
> Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking
> to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go.
> Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.
>
> 
>
> Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.
>
> Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's
> HTML or XHTML.



I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is
that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all.
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[WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE
7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility
mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.
(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I
can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).

The example is here:

http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.

The ingredients of this bug appear to be:
* a left floated element followed by
* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are
both preceded by
* a "menu" with links that are floated to the right

Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen
becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right
hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this
one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if
you change this:

v 

to this:

v  

Just what on earth is going on here?


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Re: [WSG] Another Question about JavaScript.

[Breton Slivka]

if you have javascript related questions/talk, you can try
comp.lang.javascript. Here:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/topics?pli=1


On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Brett Patterson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I hate to ask another question about JavaScript, but I need help with ONE
> more thing, please?
>
> Using the following JS code in XHTML Transitional:
> function proc()
>  {
>  var num = document.heartSearch.hsQty.value*8.95;
>  document.hSearchoutput.hsTotal.value = r2(num);
>  }
>
> function prc2()
>  {
>  var num = document.youKnow.cutSandHours.value*12.17;
>  document.outme.soter.value = r2(num);
>  }
>
> function r2(n)
>  {
>  ans = n * 1000;
>  ans = Math.round(ans /10) + "";
>  while (ans.length < 3) {ans = "0" + ans;}
>  len = ans.length;
>  ans = ans.substring(0,len-2) + "." + ans.substring(len-2,len);
>  return ans;
>  }
>
> and the following HTML code in XHTML Transitional:
> 
> 
> 
> 0
> 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1
> 5
> 6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> How would I get the last form to show the SUM of both the id="hsTotal" and
> the id="soter" text fields?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

JScript was originally created as an exact reverse engineering of
Javascript (including the mistakes), so that IE could read pages with
javascript on them. This was of course, during the browser wars when
they were competing for features. Jscript has fallen a bit behind
Javascript by now, so there are many features in Javascript that
Jscript does not support, such as Array extras, continuations and
function expressions.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

The term "Javascript" is indeed owned by Sun. The implementation of
Ecmascript in IE is called "JScript", not "Javascript", so it doesn't
infringe the trademark (technically, but it's similar enough that
people can still easily think that IE calls it Javascript)


On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Brett Patterson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am sorry, but I must ask. Are you saying that the term JavaScript is owned
> by Sun? Or just the Java part? And, yes, JavaScript is implemented in
> Internet Explorer.
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Anthony Ziebell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, great.
>>
>> It was my intent to acknowledge some standards / submissions for OO which
>> inferred classes / native inheritance were needed.
>>
>> Thanks for your help :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Anthony.
>>
>> Keryx Web wrote:
>>
>> Anthony Ziebell skrev:
>>
>> Still confuses me though - if someone is object-orientated but is in
>> essence prototype-based (with regards to object, inheritance, etc), why is
>> it incorrect to say JavaScript is prototype-based?
>>
>>
>> Your confusion comes from comparing apples to steam trains.
>>
>> Prototypes are an inheritance mechanism for objects.
>>
>> Classes are another inheritance mechanism.
>>
>> A language may implement either one or both (very rare).
>>
>> It does not matter which inheritance mechanism that is used. It is still
>> an OO language.
>>
>> It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is prototype based. It is. No one
>> is denying it.
>>
>> It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is OO. It is, since OO is a
>> paradigm for programming which JS fits very neatly in. It is de facto called
>> OO in the ECMAScript spec.
>>
>> It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is object based. It is - since it
>> has object wrappers for all primitive values.
>>
>> You really did seem to say that classes are needed for a language to be
>> called OO. Now you have stated that you did not intend to say that. Case
>> closed.
>>
>>
>> Lars Gunther
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Brett Patterson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes. But, one final question. Was the first ever implementation of
> JavaScript designed to be object-oriented, object-based, or prototype-based?
> Thank you all.
>

Here is Brenden Eich, Javascript's creator, pontificating on the
history and genesis of javascript

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2008/04/popularity.html#more

Quote: " I'm not proud, but I'm happy that I chose Scheme-ish
first-class functions and Self-ish (albeit singular) prototypes as the
main ingredients."

So in short, Yes, it was object oriented, with prototype-based
inheritence, first class scheme like functions, and (thanks to
netscape management) Java like syntax right from the start.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

It is my understanding that the bulk of those OOP design patterns are
useful to get around the limitations of static languages like C++ and
Java, that don't allow you to arbitrarily add/remove properties from
instances, change the type of a value, or allow higher order functions
(functions that return functions values), or allow you to pass in
functions as values.   Given that javascript allows all those things,
much of those traditional OOP design patterns don't make much sense,
because they're getting around a limitation that doesn't exist.

I haven't extensively used the OOP facilities in PHP, I've always
found the syntax to be ugly as hell, I could never bring myself to
type that crap willingly. So unfortunately, I cannot speak
knowledgably about how difficult or hard it is in PHP.




On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:17 AM, James Jeffery
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My statement was not worded correctly.
>
> I use Java, C++, PHP and Javascript and I can tell you that out of the lot
> of them, Javascript is the most difficult to incorperate conventional Object
> Orientated design. For example you cannot simply define classes, or use
> visability keywords (you can do it, but not the conventional way) and some
> of the OOP design patterns are difficult to put into Javascript.
>
> I have the Apress book on Javascript Design Patterns, which helped alot when
> learning OOP in JS.
>
> Sorry my wording was wrong. I think the above is what I meant.
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

I have in fact read your references, not only just now, but again and
again I have read the wikipedia articles on the  subject many moons
ago. Frankly I fail to see how any of it contradicts my position, but
they do contradict your position. I'm afraid I will have to throw up
my hands and give up on you. You are a lost cause. you cannot be
reached.


On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You seem to have missed my point and many references too.
>
> Try reading some of the references and come back with an informed opinion,
> not just nit-picking at analogies I am providing to attempt to help you
> understand (as I gather you would not be reading any references I have
> provided, which conflict with your argument anyway).
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony.
>
> Breton Slivka wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Anthony Ziebell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Lets all just agree then, that the first insulin is simply the best, so no
> further development in this area is needed. I am going to link you to two
> more resources. If you feel that the first ever implementation of object
> should mandate all others (such as the first insulins), then I welcome you
> to submit edits to this article.
>
>
> You seem to have missed my point. My point was, if we are to count
> arbitrary deviations from smalltalk as discounting a language from
> being oop (such as a lack of classical inheritence), then the only OOP
> language is smalltalk. This is clearly absurd. Therefore, javascript
> must be OOP.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Lets all just agree then, that the first insulin is simply the best, so no
> further development in this area is needed. I am going to link you to two
> more resources. If you feel that the first ever implementation of object
> should mandate all others (such as the first insulins), then I welcome you
> to submit edits to this article.

You seem to have missed my point. My point was, if we are to count
arbitrary deviations from smalltalk as discounting a language from
being oop (such as a lack of classical inheritence), then the only OOP
language is smalltalk. This is clearly absurd. Therefore, javascript
must be OOP.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Breton,
>
> There is a difference between the use of object and object-oriented
> programming.

Yes you say that, but you never go into any detail about it.  In what
way in particular is the concept and use of "objects" independant from
"object orient programming". Did the concept of "objects" *not* come
from smalltalk, the original OOP language? Can you cite any occurance
of the concept of an "object" in programming that predates smalltalk?
Do you then, think it's therefore possible to create a language with
Objects that is not in any way inspired by, or derivative of
smalltalk? Because honestly, I'm confused about where you think the
concept of OOP came from to begin with.

> Coad / Yourdon suggests object-oriented being classes and
> objects, inheritance and communication with messages. Does JavaScript have
> classes? Can inheritance of JavaScript occur without prototype?
>

Those are typical elements in OOP languages, yes, and they all existed
in the original smalltalk. Are you suggesting that any slight
deviation from small talk renders a language completely not OOP? If
that were the case, you would pretty much have to rule out any
language that was not smalltalk itself. But let's assume you have a
less extreme position. What is your methodology to determine how far a
language can deviate from smalltalk before it is no longer OOP? You
seem fixated on the concept of classical inheritence being essential
for a language to be OOP, but this is contradicted by the existance of
numerous OOP languages that do not have classes. How do you account
for this?

Javascript in fact, does have classes, but not as a mechanism of
inheritence. Javascript's inheritence is prototypal. You seem to be
suggesting that this makes it not OOP. I would like to suggest that if
this makes Javascript not OOP, then you would have to say that a dozen
other OOP langauges are also not OOP.  The choice of class as a
defining characteristic of OOP seems arbitrary. If you can suggest
that any arbitrary deviation, such as class, from smalltalk makes a
language not OOP, then C++ and JAVA are not OOP either, due to their
numerous deviations.


> May I provide the following resource, pointing out second paragraph under
> 'Adding a Method':
> http://www.kevlindev.com/tutorials/javascript/inheritance/index.htm
>
> Object-oriented programming consists of native inheritance. Are you
> suggesting that a prototypical approach to inheritance one in the same as
> native inheritance?
>

This is a red herring. With this, you have attempted to change the
topic from whether javascript is OOP or not, to whether it has
classical inheritence or not. Or, if you have not changed the topic,
you appear to be assuming that everyone is in agreement that classes
are a required attribute of OOP. This is arbitrary and nonsensical.

> Thanks,
> Anthony.
>
> Breton Slivka wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Anthony Ziebell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Luke,
>
> Discrediting c++ has nothing to do with the question "Is JavaScript
> object-orientated?". With that, and in closing, I would like to point out
> that my comments were based on the actual question - asking if JavaScript
> were object-oriented, not if it has objects. Prototype has objects, and it
> is of my opinion that JavaScript is more prototype than anything else.
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony.
>
>
> Yes that's fine anthony, but the problem is that statement doesn't
> actually mean anything. it is logically invalid, and quite nonsensical
> to say "javascript is not object oriented, it's more prototype based",
> because the two things are not mutually exclusive. Javascript having
> prototypical inheritence has absolutely nothing to do with the
> question of whether it is object oriented or not. It can be both
> object oriented, AND based on prototypal inheritence, and in fact, it
> is both. 100%. This is not my opinion. it is a fact.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Luke,
>
> Discrediting c++ has nothing to do with the question "Is JavaScript
> object-orientated?". With that, and in closing, I would like to point out
> that my comments were based on the actual question - asking if JavaScript
> were object-oriented, not if it has objects. Prototype has objects, and it
> is of my opinion that JavaScript is more prototype than anything else.
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony.


Yes that's fine anthony, but the problem is that statement doesn't
actually mean anything. it is logically invalid, and quite nonsensical
to say "javascript is not object oriented, it's more prototype based",
because the two things are not mutually exclusive. Javascript having
prototypical inheritence has absolutely nothing to do with the
question of whether it is object oriented or not. It can be both
object oriented, AND based on prototypal inheritence, and in fact, it
is both. 100%. This is not my opinion. it is a fact.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Nancy Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A bit off topic, but not totally:  are there any free good online
> tutorials (best practices and/or standards based)  to help me learn to
> write javascript?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy

This is the best javascript lesson book online that i've found. Avoid
w3cSchools at all costs.
http://eloquentjavascript.net/





On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:32 PM, James Jeffery
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The language itself is NOT object-orientated, its proto-type based. It can
> be used in an OOP fashion, but this is not true Object Orientation as it is
> in languages such as C++.
>


I've already covered this earlier, but in short, "prototype-based",
and "object oriented" are not mutually exclusive.  they are orthogonal
concepts. Javascript is prototype based AND object oriented.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Breton Slivka]

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A 'superset' of ECMA3 which is not fully compliant. Right...
>



I think you're confused. Maybe you you're thinking of the w3c dom-
Which is a seperate standard and topic from javascript/ecmascript.
All implementations of javascript in all the current browsers are
fully Ecmascript edition 3 compliant, so far as I'm aware. If you have
additional information about specific incompatibilities, I would be
extremely interested.


On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Anthony Ziebell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Brett,
>
> JavaScript is commonly referred to as 'object-orientated' but really,
> JavaScript is 'prototype-based'. They do have different meanings, but have
> some similarities...
>

A language's method of inheritence is orthogonal to (has nothing to do
with) whether the language is object oriented. Inheritance is an OO
idea, so the fact that javascript has inheritence of any kind pretty
well cements that it at least has object oriented capabilities. But it
goes further than that, because all values in javascript inherit from
Object, and can be treated as objects, making Javascript a fully
object oriented language. It is not an imperative language with OO
features tacked on, like php5. Javascript is OO from the ground up.

The tricky thing here, and the part that I think is confusing you, is
that most languages described as OOP languages include an entity
called "Class" that javascript doesn't appear to have. You might draw
from this the conclusion that if a language doesn't have "class", then
it is not OOP. Truth: "class" is just a random concept that quite a
lot of language designers happened to fixate on. "Class" is not
central to OOP. Object Orientation is *not* a computer science concept
with solid foundations in mathematics and philosophy. There is *no*
formal definition for what OOP is. There is no universally agreed on
method for determining whether something is or is not OOP.  OOP was
just an idea from some guy named Alan Kay, that he used as the basis
for his language SmallTalk. He designed SmallTalk that way because it
felt right, and he thought that it saved time. The concept was useful
enough that it became popular. This makes OOP more of a meme than a
scientific theory, as such. read more here:
http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/byte_aug81/design_principles_behind_smalltalk.html


A later object oriented programming language called SELF showed that
classes were not necessarily the most important concept about Object
orientation. The most useful aspect of object orientation
historically, has been the bundling of code with the data it operates
on. Inheritence has recently been shown to be somewhat less important
and useful than it's been seen to be in the past. (deep inheritence is
bad practice in JAVA, for instance, in favor of interfaces). Alan Kay
once expressed surprise at how fixated on classes many later
programming languages have become, as he saw his concept of "message
passing" to be the most important aspect of the design.

Javascript is a language which is well documented to be a mashup
between 3 languages. It's a combination between SELF (Object
orientation, and prototype based inheretence), with scheme (functions
as first class values), dressed up with JAVA like syntax. (curly
braces)

Javascript contains all the important and useful parts of the object
orientation meme.  Since javascript everything in javascript is an
object- including functions, you can bundle code along with data into
a single object, storing functions as values on the object. Objects
delegate missing properties and methods to their prototypes, providing
a scheme for direct instance-to-instance inheritence which mimmicks
message passing.

So there you have it. Whether javascript is OOP is kind of a matter of
taste, rather than definition (Because there is no definition). It's a
bit like pondering whether Piet Mondrian was an artist, because he
didn't paint pictures of "real" things. Of course he is, but it's
confusing because Mondrian was unlike any other artist anyone had ever
seen. In the same way, Javascript is an OO language unlike any other
OOP language most people have seen. (most people haven't seen SELF, or
newtonscript, or io, or REBOL)


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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But on the other side, I'm not sure how many people use add ons like "no
>> flash" or "no script" and there's no way to find out.
>>
>>  Cheers,
>> Johan
>>
>
> Yes, there IS a way to find out: Compare server logs with which people
> actually executed the "analytics" script. I just haven't seen any
> implementations of this strategy.
>

Just to contibute a bit to the discussion, I've seen figures along the
5% range on that particular statistic.  (people with javascript
disabled)


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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Breton Slivka]

> But on the other side, I'm not sure how many people use add ons like "no
> flash" or "no script" and there's no way to find out.
>
>  Cheers,
> Johan
>

Yes, there IS a way to find out: Compare server logs with which people
actually executed the "analytics" script. I just haven't seen any
implementations of this strategy.


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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Breton Slivka]

Read the story on that page carefully. What has happened is that flash
10 has increased restrictions over what features within the flash
plugin can be invoked via javascript. This only applies to one
specific feature (file uploads), and effects virtually no other flash
features. It does not effect javascript's abilities in general, only
the abilities of javascript to use flash in certain ways. This point
will largely become moot once video/audio/3d/canvas becomes widespread
and built into browsers, and flash as a result becomes less relevant-
Particularly on low powered platforms like the iPhone, and Android
which do not have flash- or the wii which only has an older and
underpowered version of flash.

So in my opinion, to the contrary- This news story is reporting on
decreased ability of the flash plugin to play well with javascript- It
will not make flash replace javascript- Except as a workaround in the
specific case of file uploads.


On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Charles Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Guys/Gals,
>
> I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++
> will replace JavaScript in the future?
> According to this blog :
> http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction.
>
> I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play
> their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third
> party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals
> use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with?
>
> Cheers,
> Charles.
>
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Re: [WSG] contentEditable

[Breton Slivka]

I don't mind so much about the javascript thing myself, my problem is
that contentEditable areas don't generate onChange events like form
elements do, so they are very difficult to script properly

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Robin Gorry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, this is an in-house project so this may not be a problem but an
> excellent point.
>
>
>
> Robin Gorry
> Senior Web Developer
> Xplore Net Solutions
>
> Xplore.net Website of the Week:  Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au
>
> Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful way
> to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal itself'.  Until
> recently their website did not accurately reflect their brand and they had
> no easy way to profile their product range to their Australian consumers.
>
>
> The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms,
> Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables Weleda
> staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their site,
> create online forms and surveys, provide an online product catalogue and
> issue logins to restricted access areas on their website.
>
> f:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 86
> e : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> w: www.xplore.net
>
>
> Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content
> Management System
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may
> also be privileged.
> If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and
> do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or
> store or copy the information in any medium.
>
> 
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Adam Martin
> Sent: 26 September 2008 15:18
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] contentEditable
>
>
>
> The issue with this approach is that it is not part of a form - so the only
> way to submit it will be too use javascript which is an issue if javascript
> is not enabled.
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: Robin Gorry
>
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 1:06 PM
>
> Subject: [WSG] contentEditable
>
>
>
> I am putting together an in-house application and I want to have editable
> areas on html template. I have come across what I think is a de facto
> standard across most browsers and that is the contentEdiatble attribute.
>
> I have tested it and it works in ff3, ie6 +,  opera 9.52, windows safari
> 3.1.2.
>
>
>
> Has anyone had any experience or problems with using this attribute? Here is
> the code if anyone would like to test.
>
>
>
>  "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> Untitled Document
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  this is my editable div (or is it) 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
> Any comments would be most welcome.
>
>
>
> Robin Gorry
> Senior Web Developer
> Xplore Net Solutions
>
> Xplore.net Website of the Week:  Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au
>
> Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful way
> to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal itself'.  Until
> recently their website did not accurately reflect their brand and they had
> no easy way to profile their product range to their Australian consumers.
>
>
> The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms,
> Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables Weleda
> staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their site,
> create online forms and surveys, provide an online product catalogue and
> issue logins to restricted access areas on their website.
>
> f:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 86
> e : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> w: www.xplore.net
>
>
> Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content
> Management System
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may
> also be privileged.
> If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and
> do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or
> store or copy the information in any medium.
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Best format for accessible equations

[Breton Slivka]

Might I suggest quite simply, that in the alt attribute, you write in
english, basically what you would say if you were to read the
mathematical expression out loud? This has the best chance of being
converted into something comprehensible by a screen reader. I am
assuming of course that screen readers typically have no built in
facility for dealing with mathematical expressions.  For example,
something like "X over 2, raised to the power of Y" I'm pretty sure
there's a fairly traditional language used for reading math
expressions, though I don't know of any references.




On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Andrew Ivin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We are implementing mathematical equations on one of our websites.
>
> Unfortunately, we are not able to implement a MathML or LaTex type
> solution at this stage (developer time and budget constraints)
> So, we are putting these equations up as graphics.
>
> I'm wondering the best way of giving these graphics alt attributes -
> both for web browsers and screen readers.
>
>
> If there are any suggestions, they would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Andrew
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly

[Breton Slivka]

jQuery is really good because, unlike some other frameworks, it
doesn't lock you into its little world. You're still coding in
javascript, and jQuery is just a really handy set of functions to help
you out with just the really frustrating parts.

It's really important to use a framework nowadays because of the vast
gulf there is in the behavior between the different browsers.
Frameworks eliminate hours of debugging by presenting just a single
simple interface to do many common tasks, that someone else has
already debugged to work cross browser. In my opinion, it should be
difficult to argue AGAINST using a framework, simply because
frameworks save so much time - and time is money! What are the
arguments against using a framework?

If there's something about "frameworks' that just rubs your colleagues
the wrong way, perhaps look into base2.js, IE7.js and IE8.js by Dean
Edwards. They're basically implementations of the standard w3c dom
interfaces, such that if a browser doesn't support the standard
correctly, his framework fills in the gap. With that, there's no
visible signs of a "framework", just a consistant cross browser dom
api. That's the basic principle anyway. I haven't tried it, myself, so
I can't tell you how well it really works.


On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:09 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to convince people here at work to  use JQuery for UI, but
> most are reluctant, because it's a framework.
> Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery?
>
>
> Anya V.  Gerasimchuk
> Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services
> UNIFI Information Technology
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (513) 595 -2391
>
>
> Aubrey Morrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 09/18/2008 12:04 PM
>
> Please respond to
> wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> To
> wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> cc
> Subject
> Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
>
>
>
>
> Simon,
>
> Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best
> library I have used.
> Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around.
>
> Have fun: http://jquery.com/
>
> Regards
>
> Aubrey
>
>
>
>
> Simon wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I
>> mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead
>> abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean.
>>
>> I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches
>> just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have
>> all
>> the old school techniques which I want to shy away from.
>>
>> Does anyone have any resources?
>>
>> Thanks so much
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Chrome JavaScript features - not speed

[Breton Slivka]

Just playing around in the console..

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Concerning Chrome, I have some unanswered questions about V8.
>
> Exactly what JavaScript features does it support? (This is NOT a question
> about it's speed.)
>
> The release statememt simply says that it follows the EcmaScript 3.0
> standard, but we all know that it is quirky in places and that current
> browsers deviate from it in some of those. With Mozilla leading the pack and
> Opera and Webkit/Squirrelfish following closely, there also are a slew of
> additions, a.k.a. JavaScript 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, etc.
>
> Has anyone tested if V8 supports things like:
> - Array extras

It's got the Array extras from 1.6, but not 1.8 (reduce)
> - Getters and setters
Yes, it's got those. Though strangely with __defineGetter__,
__defineSetter__, and array extras, and any other "native" function
I've tried, the toString function outputs actual source code instead
of just "function () { [native code] }" like most other
implementations.  Not sure whether it's C code or javascript code in
the functions.

> - Array and string generics

You can apply array functions to strings, if that's what you mean.

> - Generators and iterators

Nope

> - Expression closures

I don't know how you could have javascript without those. Pretty much
every website would break. Event handlers would be impossible.

> - Array comprehensions

 don't know
> - Block scope with let
nope
> Etc

Don't know about that either.
>
>
> Lars Gunther
>
> (No I've not had the time to test myself)
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE

[Breton Slivka]

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 8:55 PM, David McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> For a while now, I've been operating on the principle "Code for Firefox,
> hack for IE".
>
> That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then
> making adjustments for non-standard behaviour.
> I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said "who
> says?".
>
> I could have said "me", but maybe that's not a good enough answer.
> Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or
> something and it got stuck in my head.
>
> Is this the way anyone works?
> Is it the best way to work?
> Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling
> this afternoon turned up not very much.
>
> Thanks,
> David


I think that nobody has to have said it. It is simply a fact that is
the easiest way to code. If you need an expert to tell you which way
is best then you probably haven't tried it the other way around.

Let me frame it in a metaphore. You're a teacher with 4 students, 3 of
them are really good students, but the fourth is kind of slow, and has
difficulty understanding instructions, and is frequently found making
up his own little engish dailecs 4 u 2 reed.  What approach would you
take with this class? Do you start out by writing out the lesson in
the dumbed down dialect, and hope that you don't bring down the level
of the whole class by doing so? Or do you write the lesson in well
structured english, and put dumbed down parentheticals to explain the
difficult parts for the slow kid?

In short, IE is a bad, outdated, dumb browser, and if you code for IE
first, you run the risk of writing in a browser ebonics that make your
pages look dumb to the other browsers, and you end up using slang
words that none of the other browsers can understand properly.  it's
better to target the standards compliant browsers first (the ones that
agree on a single language), and then dumb it down for the dumb
browser.

So, an appeal to an authority figure on this matter is not necessary.
One only needs to look at the facts- And the evidence of the rather
tenuous position many large companies now find themselves in when they
can't upgrade from internet explorer 6 because all their intranet
pages were authored to work ONLY in IE6. This is a tenuous position,
because of the gaping security deficits in IE6 that put any large
deployment in dire risk. sooner or later MS is going to stop
supporting IE6, and then where will they be?

So there's another argument: It's better to code to standards, because
to depend on a single browser from a single company for your large
investment is foolish.

I'm sure you can come up with your own arguments, but yeah, it's also
just easier to code in firefox first and then hack for IE. Firefox has
fewer bugs, and is updated more frequently, and isn't trying to hold
onto an illegal monopoly by pushing mutually indecipherable dialects,
as microsoft does and continues to do.


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Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question

[Breton Slivka]

Oops, I missed the bit about the form element. In that case,
everything I just said, except add a "Submit" button to your original
form element, and an action set to the path of your php script, and
the method set to "get", the name of your paging element set to match
the name of the parameter that the PHP script accepts, and the values
of the parameters set to match the values the script accepts. with the
javascript, you can remove the submit button, and attach your function
to the on change.


Or you could ditch the javascript and the form element and just use A
tags for your page interlinking.


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Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question

[Breton Slivka]

Though really I'm not sure why you need javascript at all for this
particular application. It would be much easier to just ditch the
javascript, and code straight standards compliance. You would lose
nothing, since the javascript you're proposing adds nothing. (unless
I'm misunderstanding, you're using javascript to replicate the
functionality of a link? Why?) This is coming from someone who loves
javascript. Nevertheless, here's how I'd do it:

modify the php script to take a url ? parameter called something like
"ahah".  When the parameter is not present, render the whole page,
with the template and everything, along with the appropriate content
from the provided page number. When ahah is set to true, render the
content without the template, for the benefit of the javascript.

Code the javascript so it attaches the appropriate javascript function
call to the onclick of the "next page" link, and remember to return
false from that function to suppress the natural link behavior. In the
function call the javascript is to pass the "ahah" parameter set to
"true" when it retrieves the results of the php script. Then the php
script would render without the template, in a format that you can
easily insert into the dom of the current page. Then use a JS library
called "Really Simple History" to push in a new history state for that
state change. That way you're not breaking the back button or the
bookmark button. Remember also to code your javascript to save its
state in a hash, that is the part of the URL that comes after "#",
which is accessable from window.location.hash. Really Simple History
will probably help you do that.




On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:27 AM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So here is a question. Was recently fixing some errors on a site I took
> over.  We have a page that produces a list of accounts and limits it to x
> number of people per page.  Then we have another form element that chooses
> which page of data we view.  Javascript is used so when we change the
> element from page 1 to page 2 it calls a php script that does a new query
> for the next x number of people and displays the results on that page.  In
> this case its an intranet app so I know everyone will have a mouse and
> javascript enabled but how would you code if you wanted to go to web
> standards and have a fallback.
>
> --
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] [at]font-face confusion

[Breton Slivka]

Sorry I gave some bad version numbers here. (I was pulling numbers out
my ass, memory is difficult)

embedded font support actually began in IE4, and netscape 4.

As I pointed out, it is not currently supported in firefox, (including
firefox 3)

However other typography solutions exist such as SIFR. (google it)


On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:56 PM, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The @font-face rule does appear in CSS 2.0, but not in 2.1. CSS 2.1 is
> a revision of CSS 2.0 made in response to a lack of implementation of
> certain features in CSS 2.0, so 2.1 closer resembles what is
> implemented. (however still plenty in 2.1 that is not perfectly
> implemented)
>
> @font-face reappears in CSS3 as you point out.
>
> In terms of browser support, Internet explorer has supported
> @font-face since IE 5.5. However, only the proprietary .EOT font
> format is supported. There is a free tool available on microsoft's
> website for creating EOT files.  More information about this tool is
> available here:
> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm
>
> Netscape version 6 (I think) supported @font-face, but support was
> removed from mozilla by the time firefox rolled around, and has not
> been added back to this day.
>
> Safari has supported @font-face for truetype fonts since version 3.1.
> This may encourage other browsers to follow suit, probably beginning
> with opera (if they have not already done so), and eventually firefox.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Love Web Design
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wonder if anyone knows of or can advise on the following:
>>
>> I have been asked by a client to embed a font on their website - this is a
>> custom made truetype font, also something I have not been asked to do
>> before.
>>
>> I have therefore took to my books/research to look it up but am coming
>> across conflicting information.  I am finding information on the internet
>> and in the books that says [at]font-face has been deprecated in css2.1 but
>> have found many references to web fonts for css3 using [at]font-face but
>> with reference to little or no browser support!
>>
>> I wonder if anyone has come across this recently, has a working solution or
>> can advise or clarify?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance,
>>
>> Sarah
>>
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Re: [WSG] [at]font-face confusion

[Breton Slivka]

The @font-face rule does appear in CSS 2.0, but not in 2.1. CSS 2.1 is
a revision of CSS 2.0 made in response to a lack of implementation of
certain features in CSS 2.0, so 2.1 closer resembles what is
implemented. (however still plenty in 2.1 that is not perfectly
implemented)

@font-face reappears in CSS3 as you point out.

In terms of browser support, Internet explorer has supported
@font-face since IE 5.5. However, only the proprietary .EOT font
format is supported. There is a free tool available on microsoft's
website for creating EOT files.  More information about this tool is
available here:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm

Netscape version 6 (I think) supported @font-face, but support was
removed from mozilla by the time firefox rolled around, and has not
been added back to this day.

Safari has supported @font-face for truetype fonts since version 3.1.
This may encourage other browsers to follow suit, probably beginning
with opera (if they have not already done so), and eventually firefox.




On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Love Web Design
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I wonder if anyone knows of or can advise on the following:
>
> I have been asked by a client to embed a font on their website - this is a
> custom made truetype font, also something I have not been asked to do
> before.
>
> I have therefore took to my books/research to look it up but am coming
> across conflicting information.  I am finding information on the internet
> and in the books that says [at]font-face has been deprecated in css2.1 but
> have found many references to web fonts for css3 using [at]font-face but
> with reference to little or no browser support!
>
> I wonder if anyone has come across this recently, has a working solution or
> can advise or clarify?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Sarah
>
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Re: [WSG] MA in web development

[Breton Slivka]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Marius Milcher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> HCI,
> Databases, Dynamic Programming, (X)HTML, CSS, Usability, Design
> Methodologies etc. and, as an entry requirement, that this knowledge come
> from a relevant computing degree.
>
> M
>

I know that is how universities typically work, and it's silly to
expect the web sections of universities to work any other way. So
consider this with a grain of salt, as an unrelated rant. But it
strikes me as foolish to assume that those skills could *only* come
from a computing degree, and at least twice as foolish to assume that
they're *likely* to have come from a computing degree.

Do CS degrees really include design and usability? Do any of them
actually teach database fundamentals anymore, or do they just teach
"oracle"? Do any teach design, or do they just teach "illustrator and
photoshop", do they teach dynamic programming, or do they teach "Java"
or "c#"? Do you know of any undergraduate university course whose
curriculum actually matches up to the demands that web professionals
face in the real world? (if you do I'd like to know about it!), or are
most of them really just lopsided short sighted, vendor sponsored
courses, as I've seen in the piles of complaints and evidence?

If I were hiring, or deciding who is qualified to enter post graduate
studies, the presence of a degree would be the last thing I would
check. Actual measurable competency is far more important, and a
degree hardly guarantees that.


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Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?

[Breton Slivka]

On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 10:29 AM, James Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> the point is
> that any good user interface has multiple pathways to the same end result. In
> the scrollbar case we can use:
> * the keyboard
> * the scroll wheel
> * the scrollbar drag
> * the scrollbar buttons
> * any other device that can trigger a scroll event...
>
> In that instance, who is to say that what someone else does is wrong?

Mr. user interface himself Jef Raskin contradicts this point in "the
Humane Interface" and I would tend to agree. Having too many ways to
do something increases the amount of mental burden. Having an
interface like this is asking the user to learn all the different ways
to accomplish something. And then once they've done that, they must
decide what is the best way, each time they do it. Any good user
interface has precisely one way to get something done- the best way
(and this is measurable objectively, contrary to what you imply), and
discards all the other ways. Then you only have to learn ONE thing for
that task, develop it into a habit, and it becomes a subconscious
gesture.

Having a zillion ways to do something is a Microsoftian philosophy
that you can see in MS Windows, MS Excel and MS Word through and
through. Using any of those products gives me a headache, I must say.

As for why people use google instead of an address bar? Because that's
what you do for everything! In order to use it you only have to learn
to do that one thing, rather than learning:
1. If it's a word or phrase use google, and
2. What a URL looks like, recognising when it's valid, and deciding to
put it into the address bar.

Option 2 requires expertise most people don't have, and don't want to
bother learning- and it puts a burden on them to make a decision,
which increases stress levels.
The penalty for getting it wrong is that it doesn't work! wheras the
penalty from using google is so soft that most people don't even
notice the 4 extra seconds they spend clicking a link. So I can see
quite clearly why people would tend to use the nicer, more user
friendly function, that works every time, rather than risk the address
bar for the vague promise of maybe being a little faster.


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Re: [WSG] Flash on top of Flash

[Breton Slivka]

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Anthony Milner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  I have two flash files - 1 contains a flash menu the other contains an
>  animation. We are trying to position them on top of each other...
>

I don't know, I might be mistaken, but given that this is the web
standards group mailing list, I thought we were supposed to discourage
this sort of behavior.

You could solve all kinds of problems by just not having a flash menu
to begin with.


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Re: [WSG] re: generate data

[Breton Slivka]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it"
>
>  That would not even be true if it was possible to 'know it', which it isn't.
>  Accessibility isn't just a bunch of facts that you have to learn, and it's
>  not just about compliance with the WCAG checkpoints. That's a good starting
>  point but it only tells you if a website *should* be accessible.
>
>  To assess whether a website *actually is* accessible you need to understand
>  how people will perceive and interact with the content. That requires
>  understanding of user agents, hardware platforms, assistive technologies and
>  all kinds of disabilities. It also requires the ability to balance the
>  conflicting needs of different stakeholders. It requires us to keep learning
>  and reassessing our viewpoints as all these factors change and new
>  technologies and design techniques emerge.
>
>  Maybe it is trivial when you know all that, but I don't think any of us know
>  enough to start thinking that way.
>
>  Steve

Here, I used the phrase "in a sense" perhaps, to try to capture more
meaning than it was capable of holding. There are, as you have pointed
out two ways of "knowing" accessibility. You can know how to build
your site such that it "should" be accessable according to the
standards which assume that all user agents are following the
standards.

Then also there's the more difficult and expensive kind of
accessability where you actually test whether your target users can
really use the site or not in reality rather than just the theoretical
scenario that the standards describe.

When I said "in a sense" I meant the first kind. The kind that is
trivially easy once you know all the techniques and standards. It is
particularly easy in comparison to the second kind. The first kind is
still seen as difficult and costly to many developers who may not even
be aware of the second kind. Nevertheless, "accessibility" of the
first kind is worth doing, and is trivially easy once you know how to
do it.

 Accessibility of the second kind is also worth doing. But in a world
where many developer cultures have not even come to grips with
accessibility of the first kind, accessibility of the second kind is a
tough sell.


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Re: [WSG] re: generate data

[Breton Slivka]

I don't really feel like participating in the dramatic part of this-
But I can answer some of the questions about javascript.

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 6:53 PM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i'm more of a designer than a developer.  my knowledge of javascript is
> limited.  i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david
> flanagan.  help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more
> information.
>
> i understand that javascript is a programming language.

correct

> i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a
> data base for storage or retrieval of data.

Incorrect- Javascript is absolutely not needed for this. In fact, I
would actively discourage this usage, because it makes forms
inaccessable to clients without javascript. (Even though I do quite
like javascript most of the time)

> i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark,
> but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other
> uses.

Javascript is basically a tool to allow website authors to add browser
features that are not built in to the browser. That's how I see it
anyway. That's not exactly how most people use it, or think of it.

> i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that
> would make the page not available without it.

It's not strictly the usage of javascript that makes the page
inaccessable, it's the page's dependance on it. If you think of
javascript like I do- A tool for adding features- then the page still
needs to be able to work without those features. The reasons for
someone making a page that doesn't work without javascript are
complicated, but it basically boils down to how the author thinks
about what a webpage is, and how it works.

I've spoken to the author for instance, of www.eventliving.com.  That
website does not work at all without javascript- And there's really no
reason that it can't. The issue is that the guy who programmed it had
a background in Java application development- Not web development. He
seemed to think of a website as a specialized kind of program. He
didn't seem to know, for instance that the distinction between
clientside javascript, and serverside java code was important. The
goal was simply to get the website to work in IE, just like with any
other program, the goal might be to simply get it to work in windows.
There was no awareness of accessibility issues.

But that's just one case. Someone might alternatively be perfectly
aware of accessibility issues, and there are other reasons for
depending on javascript. Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially
easy once you know it, is percieved by a lot of people as being quite
difficult. Application responsiveness might be a top priority, and the
author simply sees no reason to make the site work without javascript.


> would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript
> in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question?

hijax

http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/29

>
> dwain
>


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Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation

[Breton Slivka]

It should be made clear that there really is no such thing as "Client
Side Validation". What we are talking about here is client side form
assistance. The goal of validation is to make 100% sure that the data
you are recieving is of the correct type, and contains no extraneous
data or security exploits BEFORE depositing it into a database or
running other type sensitive functions across it.  This is why you
must perform validation on the server side, because that's the part
you can control, so you can make sure from there that the data is
correct.


 There is absolutely no certainty about whether the data you are
receiving from the client is valid, regardless of what javascript you
have running. The data could be coming from anywhere! not just desktop
browsers with javascript. Thus, there can be no such thing as client
side validation.


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

[Breton Slivka]

Microsoft is and has undoubtedly used the coercive power of their
market dominance to interfere with OTHER businesses. What you are
presenting here is a double standard. You are saying that governments
(whose accountability is to the benefit of the public at large) should
not be allowed to interfere, while it's perfectly okay for a private
organization, (whose accountability is to its shareholders) to
interfere with other people's "property". For the most part, yes,
healthy competition is a good thing, but the system can get sick, and
exploitive, and it's precisely that situation that the government
exists for to begin with- to protect the interests of the public.

And in this case, getting IE to support standards is to the benefit of
the public, because Microsoft is certainly impeding progress in this
field, much to the detriment of everyone, but to the benefit of its
own business. That my friend is private interfering with public, and
that's where your free market utopia falls down.



On Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Again this isn't about supporting one company over another.  It's about
> using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private
> property (which is what a business is)
>
> I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things.  But they don't control the
> world.  Frontpage died while Dreamweaver dominates the web design
> market.  Not every website is developed in Visual Studio, some of us use
> PHP.
> Not every email is sent on an exchange server.
>
> I use Vista today and believe if MSFT keeps making such bloated OS's
> someone else will show up one day with a better mousetrap and MSFT will
> find itself losing market share in that area as well.
>
> Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled economies
> beat a free market one.
>
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>
>
>
> Christian Montoya wrote:
> > On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how
> >> you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
> >> challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
> >> establishing good copy protection
> >>
> >
> > Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I
> > know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format
> > and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the
> > standards approval process instead of ODT.
> >
> > So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the
> > same powers-that-be as Opera.
> >
> > Do you follow the news about the companies you support?
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript

[Breton Slivka]

On Nov 28, 2007 12:14 AM, Martin Heiden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rick,
>
> on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 at 13:50 Web Standards Group wrote:
>
> > On 15/11/07 (11:15) Ross said:
>
> >>
> >>document.write
> >>inline event handlers (like onclick)
> >>browser sniffing
> >>
> > In summary, then, does anyone recommend me hanging onto Visual
> > Quickstart Guide: JavaScript and Ajax (6th Ed.) or should I just ditch
> > it and buy Jeremy Keith's Dom Scripting book instead?
>
> If you are just starting, you should read a book for beginners that
> introduces you to to language and it's structure. Learn about objects,
> functions, "datatypes", control structures ...
>
> If you find one of the keywords, that Russ listed before, your
> alarm bells should ring. Keep on reading, but start thinking why this
> is bad. (You can always return to the list and ask...)
>
> Once you feel familiar with the language, switch to Jeremy's book.
> It's very well written, but you should have an idea how JS works. You
> will find the answers to your questions in this book.
>
> When you know about JS and DomScripting it's time to jump on the
> AJAX-train, but not before you know the basics.
>
> Good luck!
>
>   Martin

I'm sorry if this comes across as inflammatory (if this post pisses
you off just feel free to ignore it. I have bad luck with the tone of
my emails sometimes).  But... is this really how anyone here came to
learn javascript? Really? Or is it just how you wish you learned it?
Personally, I have a very difficult time retaining knowledge unless it
proves immediately useful- and knowing only a few javascript control
structures doesn't strike me as something that you can put to use
right away.

Most of the people I know who know javascript- came to know it by
jumping right in and trying to get some specific thing done. Either
they had a project that called for it, and they found some dodgy
tutorial, and got it out the door, or they had to pick through someone
else's javascript. It's only in the context of this initial taste of
javascript that these reccomendations for or against certain
techniques make any sense. Otherwise you may as well be talking about
the finer points of martian politics.

As for this "Visual Quickstart Guide: JavaScript and Ajax (6th Ed.)"
in all probability, given my general previous experience with visual
quickstart guides, it's probably awful, and innaccurate, and written
by someone who is only barely competant. However, I think you should
read it anyway, especially if it gets you to the point of getting
something (anything) *actually working* very fast. You can worry about
best practice after you get the hang of getting things working. I say
this because I have no belief in the concept that knowledge can
corrupt, and that somehow innaccurate information will poison your
mind. This only happens if you're a gullible idiot, and I tend towards
giving people more credit than assuming that they are a gullible
idiot.

 Of course if you don't feel like reading it, then don't. You have the
reccomendations here for the books that have good information (Unless
nobody has yet reccomended David Flanagan's "Javascript: The
Definative Guide"). When you're ready for good information, that is,
you have a specific problem that calls for a correct solution, then go
for those books. Otherwise, read whatever gets you into action, and
actually working in the language the quickest.


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Re: [WSG] Firefox is a pushover

[Breton Slivka]

It's a bit pedantic, but it's actually IE that has this wrong. Since
Firefox's ecmascript implementation is the basis for the ecmascript
standard- any deviation from firefox that IE exhibits is by definition
breaking the standard. Cute eh?


On Nov 22, 2007 10:12 AM, Karl Lurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Firefox is also a little naughty when it comes to Javascript parsing.
> A friend of mine pointed out how he always gets caught out when
> declaring objects in JSON:
>
> var JsonObject{
>  objectFunction:function() {
>  // blah
>  }, // extra comma here...
> }
>
> Firefox will happily parse this object without complaint, while IE
> will throw a syntax error. The syntax error may rear its head in
> firefox if you minify your Javascript. All of a sudden, your
> once-working Javascript will start to fail in Firefox too...
>
> Karl
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2007 5:22 AM, Kurt Lovelace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > James' advice is it -- there are gobs of  plug-ins for FireFox.
> >
> > There are plug-ins to not only validate HTML but whole singular
> > toolkits for working with the entire plethora of site spewage:
> > cookies, CSS, images, links, Id tags, div orders, stack levels,
> > anchors, block sizes, frames, headers, deprecated elements, feed
> > validation, section 508 validation, Dom inspectors, speed reports, etc
> > cetera.
> >
> > One FireFix plug-in does it all: Web Developer by Chris Pederick
> > located at
> >
> > Http://www.chrispederick.com/work/web-developer
> >
> > Is the über-plugin you are wanting.
> >
> > I routinely use it to deconstruct sites and quickly resolve issues.
> >
> > Regarding closed tags...not all need closing. Let not my comment start
> > a spec war discussion please.
> >
> > The Best,
> >
> > -=KuRt=-
> >
> > Kurt Lovelace
> > MindRoot Media Inc
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Nov 21, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Chris Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I build websites on a Mac and have to check my websites on another
> > > machine in order to view them in IE.
> > >
> > > I experience the usual issues with IE applying css differently than
> > > Firefox but my biggest frustrations, lately, have come from errors
> > > in my html that Firefox has happily ignored but IE has faithfully
> > > shown up.
> > >
> > > Its traditional to knock IE6 for its non-compliance but its done a
> > > good job of validating my html lately.
> > >
> > > I would like to get my Firefox to toughen up and show up errors in
> > > the html without having to submit it to a validator?
> > >
> > > The problem usually comes from missing closing tags.
> > >
> > > Kind Regards
> > > --
> > > Chris Price
> > >
> > > Choctaw
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > http://www.choctaw.co.uk
> > >
> > > Tel. 01524 825 245
> > > Mob. 0777 451 4488
> > >
> > > Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
> > > while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional
> > >
> > > ~~~
> > > -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
> > > ~~~
> > >
> > > Choctaw Media Limited is a company
> > > registered in England and Wales
> > > with company number 04627649
> > >
> > > Registered Office:
> > > Lonsdale Partners,
> > > Priory Close,
> > > St Mary's Gate,
> > > Lancaster LA1 1XB
> > > United Kingdom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***
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Re: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript

[Breton Slivka]

Javascript is a big subject, and generally can't be summarized or
simplified sensibly unless there's some particular aspect of it that
you're especially interested in. Are you looking for something like a
quick overview of the language itself, or perhaps some tutorial for
getting a particular task done?

Perhaps a better question to ask is, why do you need JavaScript? The
answer to that will inform what kind of tutorial to look for.

-Breton



On Nov 14, 2007 6:18 AM, Rob Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Am comfortable with HTML/CSS and accessibility in general, but struggle with
> JavaScript. I'm not a developer by trade, am a business type (sales and
> marketing) so most oft he stuff is well over my head. I am looking for a
> really basic, plain English guide to JavaScript. Either on or offline will
> do.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Rob
>
> --
> Rob Mason
> t/a Sponge Project
> www.spongeproject.co.uk
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] First Ajax problem

[Breton Slivka]

You may also be  running into the same domain policy,

On 11/2/07, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/1/07, Michael Horowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Strange to be answering my own post but I have done some more testing.
> > I have verified the PHP page that Ajax calls works correctly by running
> > it separate.  I have also verified AJAX works on my browser by running
> > another ajax script.  For some reason this script is not being called by
> > the browser.
> >
>
> Firebug lets you debug javascript:
> http://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843
>
> usually when an AJAX call isn't happening it's because your JS has an
> error and it's stopping early.
>
>
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> christianmontoya.net
>
>
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Re: [WSG] javascript help

[Breton Slivka]

Do you have any specific questions, or do you just want us to do your
homework for you?
-Breton.

On 11/1/07, Alexander Uribe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have some questions for an assignment that I can't figure out. If anyone
> could be of assistance that would be much appreciated.
>
> 1)Which instruction will change the background colour of an element?
> A   document.getElementById("t").backgroundColor = "yellow"
> *B*  document.getElementById("t").bgcolor = "yellow"
> *C*  document.getElementById("t").style.backgroundColor = "yellow"
> *D*  document.getElementById("t").style.color = "yellow"
>
> 2)
> Which are the valid 'for' statement(s)
> *A*  for x = 1 to 10
> *B*  for(x=0; x<10; x++)
> *C*  for(x=0, y=10; x<10; x++, y--)
> *D*  for(x=0, x<10, x++)
>
> 3)
> Which are the INCORRECT math equations
> *A*  a =+ 20;
> *B*  a = a + 20;
> *C*  a = 20 / 4;
> *D*  a++;
> *E*  a != 30;
> *F*  a =* 4;
> *G*  a = 3;
>
> 4)
> Which are the preferred methods to use when Javascript has been disabled ?
> *A*  
> *B*  Show Page
> *C*  Show Page
> *D*  Show Page
>
> 5)
> An array can be initialised by
> *A*  var a = new Array("ab","b","c");
> *B*  var a = ["a","b","c"];
> *C*  var a = ("a","b","c");
> *D*  var a = a["a","b","c"];
>
> 6)
> When you tab into a form control (i.e. a textbox) what event is executed
> *A*  onMouseOut
> *B*  onClick
> *C*  onBlur
> *D*  onFocus
>
> 7)
> What syntax is needed to initalise a Regular Expression
> *A*  var re = RegExp();
> *B*  var re = new RegExp();
> *C*  var re = regexp;
> *D*  var re = new regexp();
>
> 8)
> What does the following function do
> function x(y){
> document.getElementById(y).style.display;
> a = (z=='block') ? 'none' : 'block';
> z.a;
> }
> *A*  hide or shows a div tag
> *B*  hide or shows an element
> *C*  hide or shows a paragraph
> *D*  hide or show a table
>
> 9)
> Which cross browser (but not W3C DOM compliant instructions) can be used
> to find the Height and Width of an object on a web page *A*  clientWidth,
> clientHeight
> *B*  scrollWidth, scrollHeight
> *C*  scrollTop, scrollLeft
> *D*  offsetWidth, offsetHeight
>
> 10)
> If Javascript has been disabled by the user then
> *A*  inline scripting will still work
> *B*  only mouse events will still work
> *C*  AJAX will still be useable
> *D*  no scripts will be executed
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting 
> for?
>
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Re: [WSG] Opera for Nintendo Wii and CSS

[Breton Slivka]

Opera has the best support for handheld and projection stylesheets of
any of the major browsers, and this is a fact which they are most
proud of.

I don't know about SVG, but you can test, because opera desktop has a
mode you can activate in which it simulates opera mini. Also, since
it's a java program, you can run opera mini itself on the desktop as
well.


On 10/25/07, Jixor - Stephen I <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seeing as it looks like your developing for the browser without actually
> having a Wii. I believe the PAL resolution is 480p (720x480). Obviously
> also just take care not to have anything too fancy as it may be
> difficult to interact with.
>
> Geoff Pack wrote:
> >
> > I've been looking around the Opera site, but can't find answers to the
> > following:
> >
> > Does Opera on the Wii support handlheld and/or projection stylesheets?
> > SVG?
> >
> > Also, is SVG supported on the Nintendo DS browser?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Geoff.
> >
> >
> > ==
> > The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential 
> > and
> > may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only 
> > for
> > the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> > email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email 
> > or
> > any attachments.  If you have received this message in error, please notify 
> > the
> > sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  The ABC does not
> > represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.   
> > Before
> > opening any attachment you should check for viruses.  The ABC's liability is
> > limited to resupplying any email and attachments
> > ==
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

[Breton Slivka]

> I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are
> standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section.
> These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and
> Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it
> generates, rather than what it can read/display.
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
> Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
> Authors: "42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design"

Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
been THE issue ever since it was released.


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

[Breton Slivka]

Apologies- I didn't mean my original post as a direct response to
patrick, merely a response to the thread.

On 10/23/07, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
> viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
> *any* mail client.
>
> This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
> there's no standard of support for that.
>


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

[Breton Slivka]

and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
*any* mail client.

This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
there's no standard of support for that.


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

[Breton Slivka]

Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of
concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an
email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually
*any* email client.  Im sure they could have made the templates
standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to
see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use
"standard html that renders in any email client" I would say that they
are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just
remember back to what the output of iWeb was like.

On 10/23/07, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Keryx Web wrote:
> > When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath
> > of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its
> > HTML/CSS rendering engine.
> >
> > In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates
> > for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards,
> > accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?
>
> I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering
> engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
> __
> Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
> http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
> __
>
>
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

[Breton Slivka]

So you reckon that businesses should have all the rights of a person,
but none of the responsibilities?

On 10/4/07, Jim Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm with Chris on this one.
> Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity
> should be telling a private business what it must do and that includes
> telling a business it must provide health coverage, or spend a certain
> percentage on it and what the covereage must include.  If that business
> accepts government monies, then the ball game changes.  Of course the
> private businesses should do some things,  accessible websites may be one of
> them but it is not the governments job to force it.  It has NOTHING to do
> with cost or anything else.  Those arguements do not even enter the picture.
>  Bottom line is the government has no business sticking its nose in a
> private business as long as health and safety issues are not the issue. It
> doesn't even need to know how much money a business makes except we are
> forced to report it for our out of control IRS requirements.  Oh how we need
> SR/HR 25  Too much said already.
> Not sure this is a Web Standards topic any longer
>
> Jim Davies
>
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

[Breton Slivka]

On 10/4/07, Chris Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Speaking of ' logical fallacy'
>
>

If you have an argument, make it. Don't assume that just because you
think you're clever and right, that everyone else automatically will
too.



On 10/4/07, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, they are a business. They are trying to make money. Like all of us. All
> of their decisions were conscious and based on the premise to make money:
> use flash for marketing purposes. Save money by getting in a crappy web
> development company. Save money by not targeting a select group of people.
>
> So what? Are you blaming them for running a business? We all have to make
> these kind of decisions: how do we save money, who are the customer groups
> we are trying to address... If you don't make those decisions you are a
> crappy business person and your business won't exist for very long.
>
> Whether their decisions were right or wrong in our eyes is not the point.
> They have got the right to make those decisions because they are a private
> company.
>

Do they have that right? Are you sure? If they had a sign out front
their store that said "No short people allowed" would you argue for
their right to make that decision? If a blind person showed up to
their store, and the staff decided to not give that person the right
change, would you argue that it's the blind person's fault for being
stupid enough to try to buy from target in the first place?


> Would anybody go and sue the local grocery store for having an inaccessible
> website? No. Because nobody would expect them to spend much time or money or
> effort into building a website that works. So where do you draw the line?

You draw it at the company that you do reasonably expect to have a
website that works. A company that obviously has the resources to make
their website accessable, but conciously decided to exclude a
particular segment of the population out of ignorance.


> a company earns millions of dollars then they should suddenly have to be
> liable for making their websites accessible? But if the company only earns a
> few thousands of dollars then it's all fine?

If you have enough resources that making your website accessable to
disabled is trivial, you should absolutely make that investment. To do
otherwise is simply discrimination. To compare it to a business that
obviously doesn't have those resources, and couldn't reasonably be
expected to do so, you are making a flawed argument, with a flawed
comparison.

>
>
>
>
>
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

[Breton Slivka]

These are some of the worst analogies I've ever seen. The target
website is not a work of art, it's not a mountain, it's not a car,
it's not a drive up ATM, it's not a building.

Not to mention the slippery slopes, like "Well if they force Target to
fix their website, next they'll be forcing it on ALL websites
everywhere!" and "Well if they force target to make their site
accessable to blind people, what's next? People who can't speak
english?"

It's amazing how much these things sound like arguments, and seem to
make sense, but every one of them is a logical fallacy of some kind.

What we are talking about here, is a Catalog of products, using a
technology which is inherently easy to make accessable. It does not
require a huge investment of material. The catalog in this case, is
used for online purchasing, or making purchasing decisions before
entering a physical store. We're not talking about a grand visual
experience, or a masterpeice of literature here, or any other such
thing which would allow arguments about freedom of speach, or
expression. Target is a business, and they ain't in the business of
making art.

We are talking about a business that, despite one of the comments on
that blog, HAS made a concious decision to exclude a portion of the
populace from using their website. I know this because I've seen the
reasoning before. "Who cares about blind people? they're a small part
of the population anyway. Let's just make the whole thing flash."

So we're talking about target conciously discriminating against a
portion of the populace from purchasing goods from their store, or
finding information about their products, so they could have the
perception of saving money, by not having to hire competant web
developers. This is not a freedom of choice issue. It's an issue of
choosing the illusion of money, over people. And as we can see now, it
was a bad choice, not only because the money they could have spent on
accessiblity will now be spent on lawyers, but they also lost the
potential money from those lost customers. The money they choose truly
was illusory.


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws

[Breton Slivka]

The mouse isn't the only option for navigation in flash. Last time I
used it, there were methods for reading keystrokes as well. Maybe the
disconnect between the way people navigate with jaws, and the way
people would navigate within the flash would be intolerable, I don't
know. It seems to me though that jaws wouldn't be a requirement for
accessible flash, with the right designer in charge. I'll will accept
that I'm wrong, if I am, but you haven't presented any evidence that
would make me believe that I am wrong. Perhaps I am stubborn, I like
to see possibility where others have thrown up their hands and given
up.



On 9/27/07, Jonathan Poissant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Breton:
> In my previous Job we build sites for kids to read be able to read stories
> online in Flash. Accessibility was a major issue that we where only able to
> get over by having a HTML version of the sites, even if our stories where
> narrated. This is because we where unable to have Jaws navigate in the flash
> application itself, and having a visually impaired person use the mouse to
> navigate, even with roll-over sound, is not what we would call accessible.
>
> Would it be possible to have something work with Jaws? I would say yes.
> Would it be easy to navigate, enjoyable and worth the time? I don't think
> so.
>
> > On 9/26/07, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > This might sound silly, but here it is anyway:
> > >
> > > Flash can do more than just graphics- You can also play sounds and
> > > manipulate them, to a certain extent with code. I've always wondered
> > > what the possibilities would be if someone applied themselves to
> > > making not just a website which is merely accessible with a screen
> > > reader- but something that is truly enjoyable for a blind person to
> > > use.
> > >
> > > Since I have never needed to use software using a screenreader, I
> > > don't know how easy or difficult it is to use software like flash to
> > > do something like this. But if you figure you are up to the challenge,
> > > I would be very interested in the results of creating an audio
> > > website.
> >
>
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Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws

[Breton Slivka]

This might sound silly, but here it is anyway:

Flash can do more than just graphics- You can also play sounds and
manipulate them, to a certain extent with code. I've always wondered
what the possibilities would be if someone applied themselves to
making not just a website which is merely accessible with a screen
reader- but something that is truly enjoyable for a blind person to
use.

Since I have never needed to use software using a screenreader, I
don't know how easy or difficult it is to use software like flash to
do something like this. But if you figure you are up to the challenge,
I would be very interested in the results of creating an audio
website.


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Re: [WSG] Using XLST to define microformats

[Breton Slivka]

One more thing:

the microformats mailing list
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss/

Is just as friendly and open as this one, just as easy to join, but has the
added advantage that it's full of experts on microformats.

-Breton


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Re: [WSG] Using XLST to define microformats

[Breton Slivka]

Hey Paul,
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by defining microformats as an xml
namespace, but I do know that the microformats community uses the x2v
stylesheets as the reference implementation for many microformats, including
hcalendar and hcard. http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/

That's about as close to a definition of microformats in xslt as you're
likely to find. I'm certain if you look around microformats.org you'll find
xslt sheets for the other microformats as well.

In addition, I understand that it's perfectly possible to embed microformats
in an xhtml namespace in other xml formats. The impression I get is that
suda's x2v sheets will handle that as welll, but i've never tested, so I'm
likely wrong.

-Breton


On 8/27/07, Paul Minty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Hi all,
>
> my first post, so: I'm Paul Minty, I do the IA, project management, some
> front-end development and even a little copywriting for a small web design
> and development studio in Melbourne.
>
> Does anyone know of an effort to define micro-formats using an XML name
> space and an XLST? I think that approach would be a great way to achieve
> some semantic mark-up using the existing XHTML namespace. It's how I prefer
> to process large amounts of data when we produce a larger web-site and I
> think it is a technique that could be applied in a more general way.
>
> thanks
> Paul
>
>
> *Paul Minty **Director*
>
> *mint**leaf studio** *
> We design & create stylish websites
>
> Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000
> Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne
> T. 03 9662 9344
> F. 03 9662 9255
> M. 0418 307 475
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.mintleafstudio.com.au
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

[Breton Slivka]

This issue really pushes my buttons, I will admit. I had my rant (my initial
post), and I naively believed that would be pretty much the end of it. I
forgot that I push buttons when I'm ranting. I've even provided an out in my
last post inviting people to continue this conversation off list. That
didn't quite work out, so here we are still on list. The essential problem
at this point is that since I opened with a rant, I've set myself up a
hostile situation. Hostile situations are not ideal for explaining difficult
and subtle concepts.

I suggest, since this is a hostile context, (which I again admit is mostly
my fault), that most people who would respond to me at this point would not
do so because they are interested in what I have to say. There is a high
risk, regardless of whatever I post, of simply continuing a back and fourth
disagreement which would be inappropriate for this list. I offer two
alternatives.

1. If you are honestly interested in learning about graphic design, read the
books I suggested, as they are a more credible and coherent a source than I
am. Far be it from me to put you off of correct information simply because
it's coming from me, random internet nutter #8.

2. If you really just want to continue the conversation specifically with
me, Please do so off list. Me being a bit irritated at someone's offhand
comment may have been borderline on topic. Me making pronouncements about
what I think graphic design is about is definitely not on topic, and I will
not be lured into making a further ass out of myself.

-Breton


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Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash

[Breton Slivka]

There's two approaches, one is to use the Hixie style flash embedding,
and include your text/html content nested inside the inner object
element. This content is visible to text browsers and google. This is
demonstrable by searching for the string:

"FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this)"

, Which is what Hixie put in his original example. (Rather
unfortunately, he didn't put in any useful text).

The other approach is to author a standard's compliant page, with your
text alternative in line, and use a javascript method such as
FlashObject, or UFO to replace the text with a flash movie. Users with
flash installed get the flash movie, users without either Javascript,
or Flash will get standard html content.


On 7/12/07, Micky Hulse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Robby Jennings wrote:
> I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on
> our page.  When embedding these files, what is the best method for
> providing a text alternative?

How much text alternatives are we talking here?

More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex
applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show
alternative content if the flash file fails to load?


--
Wishlists: 
Switch: 
  BCC?: 
My: 


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

[Breton Slivka]

On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT
Website Design.


No, it's Graphic Design, Not "Graphic Design of the Appearance of
Websites". Qualifying it in such a way confuses matters, and is
terribly innaccurate.



It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility
(using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold
across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \


Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which
excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given.




And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in
meeting a client's requirements.  Too many bad Websites have been produced
in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and
placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount.



Who said anything about Visual design? I explicitly said that graphic
design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. As it
stands, I am concerned with Graphic design, and you are unconcerned
with "visual design" "of the appearance of things. " , which I am
largely unconcerned with as well. The only disagreement here is that I
disagree that you reacted to anything that was in my post.

On the other hand, if you or anyone would like to learn what graphic
design is (Hint, it's not making things pretty. Hint hint.) may I
suggest Meggs' History of Graphic Design. This is also a good book for
the original poster. Others are Eric Speikerman's "Don't Steal Sheep",
and  Robert Bringhurst's "Elements of Typographic Style", which
admittedly are only about typography, which is just one aspect of
Graphic Design.

I will leave it at that. If you would want to have further discussion
of this with me off list, I would suggest at least humoring my premise
"Graphic Design's primary focus is not visual", and you will have a
higher chance of learning something, such as what Graphic Design's
primary focus is.


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

[Breton Slivka]

On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


, you are wrong about graphic design.

..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a "Graphic Designer"
(or worse, mislabeled "Web Designer") that looked for anything but
Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about
BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed.

For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about "purty". :-)

Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with
at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far.




That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's
understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not
an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many
self proclaimed "Graphic Designers" hold the same flawed view. This is a
serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a
problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an
accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However
this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does
not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a
qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a
qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database
Designer.

Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up
and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human
anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons
running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would
be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility
wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic
Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect
us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not
the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from
the misperceptions of the other.

It makes me sad.


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

[Breton Slivka]

On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Not that this will necessarily address Marvin's issues, but I just
couldn't let it go by :-)

> First, lets understand the different aspects of web development.
>
> 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge
> in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks.

To which I'd say -- sorry, no, that's *graphic* design.

Real "web design" addresses business needs, information architecture,
user experience and interaction design. It's what enables creation of
wireframes or monochrome undecorated prototypes for usability testing
long before any graphic artist's involvement.

Without that, you're just painting pictures in markup...

IMO :-)

--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

dream.  code.




Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what
you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't
"Make it Purdy", Graphic design isn't "Learn how to use photoshop". It's
exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website.
Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but
*do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is.

Graphic design for print design has four aspects:

Client Needs

Audience Expectations

Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations,
selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A
knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good
visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design)

Craftsmanship

The graphic design process on the web is no different.

A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design
actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should
be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the
last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be
spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great
deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the
solution. This is graphic design.  If this is not what you've found in
graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist,
or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer.

Please do not slander my profession in the future.

And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense.
But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design.


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Re: [WSG] Keeping state of "behaviors"

[Breton Slivka]

This is quite useful to me. Though I don't quite understand how it works. Is
the iframe important to the functioning? Is there a way to do the same
thing, but make the state bookmarkable?

On 6/8/07, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I put this together, but I'm not sure it could be useful for anything...
May be it could be used with Ajax stuff, when the back button is a
concern.

http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keeping_state/keeping_track.html

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

[Breton Slivka]

So when is this great festival of telling people what they can't do  
going to end? I'd like to know what you CAN do for forms? this is not  
a made up problem. Forms are difficult to style.


-Breton

On 23/05/2007, at 4:58 AM, Jamie Collins wrote:


Tables for forms = NO
DL for forms = No

Its that simple .

On 5/22/07, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:Steve  
Green wrote:
> No, a form is not a list of form controls any more than a chapter  
of a

> book is a list of paragraphs or a paragraph is a list of words. A
> collection of form controls is a fieldset.
>
> Definition lists are the new tables. People are just falling over
> themselves trying to abuse them in all kinds of inappropriate  
ways. To

> paraphrase the previous message, a definition list is for lists of
> definitions, and if you're using it to style your page you need  
to take

> a strong look at what you're doing.

Amen!

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] css type loop

[Breton Slivka]

Tell that to this search engine:
http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/

On 21/05/2007, at 9:31 PM, Rob Kirton wrote:

More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value  
to developers or to those who have to maintain the site.  They have  
no bearing on "real world" semantics in terms of benefit derived by  
end users and page retrieval via search engines.  To that end they  
are semantically neutral


--
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton

On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul  
Novitski wrote:
> Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose  
semantic
> value when ids & classes are added?  I think of ids & classes as  
being

> semantically neutral or inert.
When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and
classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For
example, id="nav-main", id="footer", class="price" all add value.
However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce
there is an implied value which is imparted because "this element has
one and that element doesn't." With class="bullet1", class="bullet2",
class="bullet3", etc., their value is somewhat diluted.


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Re: [WSG] width of inline lists

[Breton Slivka]

you can try either inline-block, or instead of inline, float:left.  
This is typically the solution I usually end up using.

On 20/05/2007, at 10:02 PM, Designer wrote:

Has anyone got a (simple) workaround for the fact that I want to  
specify the width of each  in an inline list?  (which is not  
allowed).


I'm using the simple menu:

div#menu {
font : 13px  Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
text-align : left;
color: #333;
}

div#menu li{
width : 250px;
display : inline;
list-style-type : none;
}

div#menu a:link,
div#menu a:visited {
text-decoration : none ;
padding-top : 10px;
color : #333;
border-top :  5px solid #ddd;
}

div#menu a.active:link,
div#menu a.active:visited,
div#menu a:hover {
color : #090;
text-decoration : none;
border-top :  5px solid #090;
}


and, of course, the 'width : 250px' is just ignored.  I've tried  
setting a width on the  but that doesn't work either.


MUST I use a table?

--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] css type loop

[Breton Slivka]

This might seem obvious, but have you considered combining them into  
a single image, and adding them as a single background to the OL  
instead?


On 17/05/2007, at 7:25 PM, Paul Collins wrote:


Hi all,

I recently had to add numerical bullet point graphics to an OL. This
meant I had to add an individual class and style to each bullet point
for each image, which can add up when you've got 20 bullets. I was
wondering, does anyone know more clever way of doing this in some kind
of a CSS loop, without using Jscript?!

Example:

CSS
li.bullet1 {background:url(images/bullet1.gif} no-repeat;}
li.bullet2 {background:url(images/bullet2.gif} no-repeat;}

HTML
lorem ipsum
lorem ipsum

Cheers


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Re: [WSG] Windows Vista Style Buttons

[Breton Slivka]

Right, but now that he knows what they're called, he can use google  
to find a link such as this:

http://www.seoconsultants.com/css/menus/tutorial/
which has a fix for IE, or any of a number of other links on google,  
which also have fixes.


Anyways, nothing wrong with IE users getting a slightly degraded  
experience, as long as they can still use and access the site.




On 28/04/2007, at 8:31 PM, Designer wrote:


Breton Slivka wrote:

you can do it like this:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html
But you should know that this UI pattern is a usability/ 
accessability disaster, and usually a symptom of poor content  
organization. I would encourage better organization in order to  
avoid these altogether.



You should also note that these methods rely on the browser's  
ability to support hover on pseudo elements, which makes it utterly  
useless in the real world (where IE is king!). AFAIK, only mozilla  
will support this.


(Incidentally, I was just amused to find that the Thunderbird   
spell checker doesn't know what Mozilla is, nor indeed,  
Thunderbird :-) )


--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] Windows Vista Style Buttons

[Breton Slivka]

you can do it like this:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html

But you should know that this UI pattern is a usability/accessability  
disaster, and usually a symptom of poor content organization. I would  
encourage better organization in order to avoid these altogether.



On 28/04/2007, at 6:01 PM, Sagnik Dey wrote:



Hi Everybody,

 I've following the queries in this group since long. The solutions  
provided are quite helpful to all. This is my first query


How can i develop a menu just like in winvista...sublinks  
one...whenevr we hover a link an expandable image is displayed.


I'm attaching an image to be more clear. Marken in red is the link.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/default.mspx





--
:: Sagnik ::
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Re: [WSG] commenting javascript in script tags

[Breton Slivka]

On 26/04/2007, at 5:19 PM, Andrew Harris wrote:


On 4/26/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Could you explain why the script snippet has to be in the head?

Will it have some some adverse effect on other pages if in a common
external file?  If so, why can't it be in an additional .js file,  
called

only by that page?


OK, of course, it doesn't HAVE to be in the head, but in this case,
it's much more convenient that way. I am rolling out a dreamweaver
template that will be used on many thousands of pages. They all
reference a central javascript, but occasionally a variable needs to
be customised for certain pages. The variable is pretty much unique to
the page, so while an external file could be created, it's pointless
for one line of code... especially when dealing with a large number of
users of varying skill levels - copy and paste code samples into an
editable area in the head is nice and easy :-)

--
Andrew Harris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.woowoowoo.com






why not markup the variable as html and use dom scripting in the  
central script to pull out the variable from the individual pages?






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Re: [WSG] safari debugger

[Breton Slivka]

try "Safari Enhancer". It enables you to turn on the hidden debug  
features built into safari, among a few other settings.



On 14/03/2007, at 10:17 AM, Héctor Lupuche wrote:


Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a way to debug in Safari, I have tried Drosera but  
I'm unable to install, I have not any mac experience.

I really will appreciate any help
Regards,
Hector

Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now!
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Re: [WSG] standards selling points

[Breton Slivka]

In my experience, it's a bad move to try and sell a client on the  
technology you intend to use. The more technologically unsavvy they  
are, the less interested they will be in what technology you are  
using. (Remember this is my experience).


I've had better success determining what problems the client has,  
which can be solved by a website. I then base my presentation on  
exactly how and why a website is the best solution. Sometimes a  
website is only part of the solution. Sometimes it isn't the best  
solution at all, and is instead a solution looking for a problem.


If standards, and best practice are part of the solution to their  
problems, then you barely need to think about how to sell them on it.  
Just describe why it's the best solution to whatever the problem is.  
In a commercial situation, it may be about maximizing profit by  
reducing maintenance costs. In a government situation, it may be  
compliance with laws, and accessibility issues.


In summary, focus more on problems and solutions, rather than  
specific technologies.


-Breton.


On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote:



Hello,
This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input.
I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of  
competition.
What are some web standards selling points that might get through  
to a completely uniformed, unsavy client.


The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the  
process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to  
reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet.
I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site- 
im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type.
Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no  
requirement here in Ireland for accessibility.


-best
kvnmcwebn







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Re: [WSG] Web 2.0 Applications

[Breton Slivka]

Web 2.0 is a generalized marketing term used to describe a trend. The  
trend it is describing is about sites like flickr, del.icio.us,  
youtube, and even myspace, which utilize the network effect to let  
users produce the content for the website, and generate massive  
communities around content creation.


In what way is faux finishes related to that?
Is the site going to be about people logging in to upload photos of  
their own faux finishes?


If instead, you are referring to the erroneous and frothing mad  
interpretation of the term "Web 2.0", that is, to refer to sites that  
use ajax, another misunderstood and only vaguely related marketing  
term, Then, in what way does a site about faux finishes lend itself  
to ajax?


As for the microformats, what do they have to do with bookmarks?

My basic point is, you are approaching the problem of web development/ 
design from completely the wrong direction.  Design the site first,  
and how it should operate, do user testing and user centric design.  
Decide what technologies are needed to achieve that dead last.You  
are doing it backwards. You've decided what technologies you want to  
use first, and seem to be intending to design the site around them. I  
think you will find that if you examine the successful "Web 2.0"  
sites, that they used the user centric approach, not the technology  
centric approach. That's what's set them apart. Not ajax. Not  
microformats. Not shiny OS X inspired graphics.


-Breton

On 09/03/2007, at 3:27 AM, CK wrote:


Hi,

I've an opportunity to create a site specializing in faux finishes.  
This appears to lend itself to a web 2.0 application. Would someone  
provide examples in writing of commercial, preferably art related  
commercial web 2.0 applications?


Interested in
AJAX/DOM
For updating/displaying finish data

Micorformats
possibly to bookmark finishes/collections




Respectfully,
CK



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Re: [WSG] Content negotiated links: why so bad?

[Breton Slivka]

On 01/03/2007, at 9:31 AM, libwebdev wrote:


Hi folks,

I followed a recent thread here on how people manage their links,  
and I made a request to our organisation's webmaster to allow  
MultiViews for my department's website (which I manage, and which  
is part of a large public organisation). I have a penchant for  
short, usable URLs that don't show file names, and would like to  
link to "/mydept/training/" rather than "/mydept/training.htm".


His response:


My main concern would be with how content-negotiated links get  
handled by search engines (both Google and Thunderstone).


Google sends the http accept header with text/html as its preference.  
Apache will serve whatever content best matches that. Thunderstone  
sends whatever accept header you set it to send, so the consequences  
of that are up to you and how you set it.



There is also a potential issue if there is more than one page in a  
folder that satisfies the content criteria.
Then the one the user agent prefers (indicated by it accept header)  
gets sent.  This concern is uselessly ambiguous, though. What kind of  
situation is he imagining, exactly?



Additionally, even if we were to allow MultiViews, it is essential  
that the URL in any links within the pages still be the correct  
full one.


How does he define "correct" ? Any one of the possible content types  
is correct depending on what user agent is requesting the page. If an  
XML browser requests a page which contains "full" links to html  
documents, this would be incorrect.



Given the structure of the  site, I am not sure that  
there is any great advantage to be gained.




what special qualities of the site's structure is he talking about here?




I'm not sure I fully understand his concerns, and wondered if  
someone could enlighten me as to why he is reluctant to do this,  
why it would be A Bad Thing when it seems pretty innocuous to me.


is seamless multiple language support, and seamless multiple browser  
support into the future important to the company? Are clean, easy to  
remember URL's important? What are the actual drawbacks? I've read  
carefully though his "concerns" and he doesn't seem to specifically  
state any.  So, it seems to me that while he said he has concerns,  
what he listed as concerns are rather strange constructed mythologies  
designed to appear like concerns, but which are not.





Or perhaps I should just get over it, use *.htm everywhere, and  
move on to more important issues. .. ?


lib.



You could. To play devil's advocate here, what percentage of your  
target audience would be able to take real advantage of this change?  
Is that percentage worth the trouble of arguing with him, and is it  
worth the trouble of implementing the change?




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