Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Ben Bishop]

On 2/3/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup.  What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing in the first place?
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markupI don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for non-semantic and illogical markup.Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they really need a new website because their current one isn't standards based? Are you looking for an explanation of why you are different to all the other web developers out there?
Ultimately, do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If you really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web Standards Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user groups. Give talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.
-Ben

Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

[Ben Bishop]

The discussion of "Definition lists for comments in blogs" has been a
great so far.
Please don't stray off-topic.

Ben
WSG Core


> That may be because most people don't know it's an acronym.  Foobar IS
> > The only thing I can think of is: are you aware of the origin of "fubar"
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Re: [WSG] Can fonts be fixed in firefox?

[Ben Bishop]

This thread has dribbled far enough.

Any further replies in this thread should be:
 - related to Andreas' questions, and
 - related to Web Standards, and
 - perhaps of interest to the other 1800 list members

Have a nice day.

- Ben
WSG Core

On 5/9/05, Andreas Boehmer wrote:
> Is there any way to overcome Firefox' accessibility and fix the font-size?
> Or do I have to go and use images instead? In which case I would have to use
> Javascript for the Rollover, which really goes too far!
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Re: [WSG] Can fonts be fixed in firefox?

[Ben Bishop]

On 5/9/05, Parker Torrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But *please*, for the love of accesibility, make sure the images have
> > meaningful alt attribute set...
> 
> How does one set an alt attribute for a background image?

One doesn't. However, one might set the alt attribute of the .

"Buttons created with the BUTTON element function just like buttons
created with the INPUT element, but they offer richer rendering
possibilities: the BUTTON element may have content. For example, a
BUTTON element that contains an image functions like and may resemble
an INPUT element whose type is set to "image", but the BUTTON element
type allows content.
...
Recall that authors must provide alternate text for an IMG element."
  http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.5

- Ben
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Re: [WSG] Firefox 1.0.3

[Ben Bishop]

On 4/20/05, Ian Fenn wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed any issues with their standards-compliant websites
> and the new Firefox 1.0.3?
> looks a bit strange. The most significant difference is that background
> images inserted through the css do not seem to be displayed.

I haven't seen any problems with the background property.

Can you provide a link to the site, or knock up an example?

- Ben
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Re: [WSG] Google XHTML?

[Ben Bishop]

James Bennett wrote:
> For some reason this evening, every time I went to Google I was
> redirected to http://www.google.com/xhtml, which serves up an "XHTML
> 1.0 Mobile" DOCTYPE pointing to

Are you faking your user-agent? (eg, Chris Pederick's User-Agent
Switcher for Firefox)

I was stumped by the same thing a little while ago and found I'd
forgot to change back from my  phone's user-agent:
Nokia6260/2.0+(3.0448.0)+SymbianOS/7.0s+Series60/2.1+Profile/MIDP-2.0+Configuration/CLDC-1.0

- Ben
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Re: [WSG] Information Architecture and relevence to Web Standards Development

[Ben Bishop]

> Information Architecture and relevance to Web Standards Development

I missed the bit where you explained the relevance to Web Standards,
but I'm sure you're just getting the topic warmed up :)

While IA is indeed important, only discussions specifically on IA &
Web Standards would be on-topic here.

There are good resources out there. IAWiki makes a good start:
http://www.iawiki.net/IAwiki

And if you are still Sydney based, you might even check out the IA
meetings (see the IAWiki site.)


-Ben
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Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 Presentation Module

[Ben Bishop]

Douglas,

Personal attacks are not acceptable on this list and, in most cases,
offenders will be unsubscribed.

"The list administrators reserve the right to unsubscribe any member
from the list. Reasons include: Unfriendly, abusive, disrespectful or
rude behaviour..."
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

If you have something to add, make it relevant to the topic, rather
than attempting to derail the discussion with petty remarks.

Ben
WSG Core
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Re: My Apologies & Defence !! RE: [WSG] 2 WEEKS TONIGHT! Funkdub @ City Bar, Chester

[Ben Bishop]

Sam has apologised. As far as on-list discussion goes, this thread is closed.
Any further discussion should be done directly with the parties
involved, or via a polite email to info@webboy.net

Offenders will suffer the wrath of the Admins.

Thanks,

Ben
WSG Core
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility Checklist in Simple English

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Lisa,

Not specifically P1 only checkpoints, Juicy Studio have a write up of
WCAG 1.0 at
http://www.juicystudio.com/tutorial/accessibility/index.asp#guide

Regards,

Ben


On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:59:37 +1100, Herrod, Lisa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I need to do some brief training at short notice on the WCAG priority 1
> checkpoints and was just wondering if anyone had seen it in simple english.
> ie. for people who really don't have any coding experience?
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CLOSED Re: [WSG] Letting clients update their site

[Ben Bishop]

While off-topic for this list, we do have a mailing list for
discussing content management/web publishing systems (thanks to Peter
Firminger.)

http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/index.cfm?resource_id=131

"The members of this list are currently working out the rules but
basically anything to do with content management and content
management systems is up for discussion.

If you want to be on the CMS mailing list please send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with "Subscribe cms" (no quotes) in the
BODY of the message."

Please do not continue this thread on WSG, use WSG-CMS or email Erwin off-list.


Thank you,

Ben
WSG Core
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Re: [WSG] Vignette and web standards = disaster?

[Ben Bishop]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:51:48 +0100, Ian Fenn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm working on a major website and getting the problem Douglas Bowman
> describes here:
> Douglas clearly managed to - wired.com did indeed relaunch - but I'm
> awaiting his reply. It has been a day or so and I'm up against a tight
> deadline :-(

If you read Doug's latest blog entry, you'd know he's most likely on a
plane right now heading to New Zealand. I wouldn't hold your breath
for an immediate reply.

As this is a tool/CMS/Vignette issue, you might get a quicker response
from Vignette support or developer forum.

-Ben
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Re: [WSG] [OT] NZ vs Aust

[Ben Bishop]

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED. NO MORE POSTS. And no replies to Lee's question.

Regardless of how witty a retort, how droll a barb, or how clever your
carefully crafted rejoinder, if it has nothing to do with Web
Standards DO NOT POST IT TO WSG.

This isn't what the group is about. There are plenty of other forums
for these sort of discussions. If you are in doubt as to the
guidelines, read them:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

If you would like to respond to a legitimate on-topic issue raised in
a thread that has been closed due to borderline/dubious/blatant
off-topic comments, open a new thread and clearly address *only* the
on-topic issue.

The best response to an off-topic post, or flame bait for that matter,
is to ignore it. Please use this post as practice.


To the members annoyed by these posts, thank you for your patience.

Ben
WSG Core Group

"Wise people talk because they have something to say; fools, because
they have to say something."
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Re: [WSG] [OT] NZ vs Aust - CLOSED

[Ben Bishop]

Thank you all for sharing your opinions - fight it out at Web Essentials 04.
Please do not continue this topic further.

Thank you.

Ben
WSG Core Group
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Re: [WSG] Can someone tell me... (long)

[Ben Bishop]

If I remember correctly, the DOM Inspector is an option when
installing Firefox (not sure if it can be added post-install.)

Related:
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/340/
http://www.brownhen.com/DI.html

--Ben
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Re: [WSG] Problems incorporating suckerfish dropdown

[Ben Bishop]

> for once ie is doing as its told and positioning the dropdown in the
> right possy but in firefox i can't for the life of me get the darn thing

Arrrggghhh! Surely you've seen the trend when "IE is right, Firefox is
wrong." Just how many times has Firefox got it wrong on this list?!

Here's the CSS in question:

li {
  ...
  padding: 4px;
}

li ul {
  ...
  top: 1.75em;
  left: -.35em;
  padding: 4px;
}

li > ul {
top: auto;
left:auto;
}

You've set 4px padding on LI, and 4px padding on LI UL. Because the
submenu UL is contained within the menu LI, they combine to an 8px
horizontal indent on the submenu LIs.

It looks like you've set LI UL to left:-.35em to pull the menu back
into position (affects all browsers.) This is an inexact method. In
most cases you should use the same unit for calculations (ie, 8px
indent = left:-8px)

BUT,  below that you've got LI > UL setting left:auto which is ignored
by IE, but not other browsers who set left:0, overriding the -.35em
above.

So, how easy is it to fix?

Put the horizontal padding in the LI A instead:

li {
  ...
  padding:4px 0;
}
li a {
  padding:4px;
}
li ul {
  ...
  top: 1.75em;
  left:0;
  padding:4px 0;
}
 
li > ul {
   top: auto;
}

A perfect example of why many boffins here develop with Firefox then
tweak for IE. And a good example of simplifying the CSS when things go
pear shaped :)

--Ben
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Re: [WSG] Probs with IE behaviour of height attribute of boxes

[Ben Bishop]

> You see, in IE the horizontal 'box', which should be displayed as a line and it's 
> height is defind to 1px, appears terrible. This problem ONLY exists in IE. Any ideas?

I can confirm it looks terrible in IE, though it appears almost as
ghastly in Firefox. Maybe it's the colour #f0 ?

There's another issue:. in IE, your empty  appears
taller than 1px. 19 pixels to be precise. Even though the DIV is
empty, it still has a font-size of 16px. Set the font-size to 1px to
fix this.

It looks like you are using this empty DIV as a horizontal rule. Have
you considered using a HR instead? Or adding a 1px border to the
bottom of  ?

--Ben
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Re: [WSG] off topic, but needed. are there any struts users?

[Ben Bishop]

Ted,

> [WSG] off topic, but needed. are there any struts users?
> I just wanted to know if there are any struts users that could answer a question for 
> me off the list.

Forgive me if you've already exhausted these channels, but have you
tried asking your Struts questions where they would be on-topic?

This is what my quick Google legwork turned up:

Email list - http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#Struts
Web forum - http://jguru.com/forums/Struts
IRC channel - irc.darkmyst.org #struts_users


--Ben

 "All the powers in the universe are already ours. It is we who have
put our hands before our eyes & cry that it is dark."
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[WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name sites

[Ben Bishop]

19 Aug 2004 - The Attorney General of New York has deemed parts of
Ramada.com and Priceline.com inaccessible to assistive technology.

"The Attorney General opined that the Americans With Disabilities Act
requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually
impaired Internet users."

Settlements reached will attempt to make both sites more accessible.

"Under the terms of the agreements, the companies will implement a
range of accessibility standards authored by the Web Accessibility
Initiative ("WAI") of the World Wide Web Consortium ("W3C"), an
organization that recommends Internet standards."

"The companies must also implement a wide variety of other
initiatives, based on guidelines authored by the W3C."

"In addition to the steps outline above, Ramada.com and Priceline.com
will pay the State of New York $40,000 and $37,500, respectively, as
costs of the investigation. The Attorney General emphasized that once
the companies were notified of the accessibility issues by his office,
they worked cooperatively and creatively with his Internet Bureau to
correct the issues."

Attorney General's Press Release
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html

Sandy Clark's comments
http://www.shayna.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=78672CBF-CABE-65E3-306A96044957F88C

John Dowdell's comments
http://www.markme.com/jd/archives/005883.cfm
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Re: [WSG] help on this rollover please

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Jim,

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:35:01 -0700, Jim Barricks
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.barricksinsurance.com/button.html .
> It shows up fine with 4 rows across and 4 rows down on IE but it shows 5
> rows across on Firefox.
> Has anybody any idea what is going wrong here Please?

You are absolutely correct - IE is displaying it wrong.

You've set the width of the UL to 80% of its parent. You've set the
width of LI to 20% of its parent.

So, the UL is 4/5 of BODY and LI is 1/5 of UL - therefore you get 5
LIs to a line.

What can you do? If you only want four LIs to a line, set their width
to 25%, else add "clear:left;" to the UL.

--ben
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Re: [WSG] can you see why my suckerfish menu is off line in ie/firefox

[Ben Bishop]

Adam,

> i have 2 css problems with my suckerfish implementation;
2.  however in both firefox and IE the sub menu sits at the top of the main
 instead of the bottom.  I can fix this with a "top: 191px;" property on

To fix the vertical position issue, loose the "#nav a" float. (the
"#nav li" float is needed, as per the Suckerfish examples.)

Now the sub-menus won't be positioned perfectly for your site because
they are positioned immediately under the link.

Your LI has a height of 59px, your link only 37px (font-size:12px +
top padding:15px + bottom padding:10px)

Get the heights to match and you'll hopefully have the effect you want.

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Problem with IE 5

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Giles,

> but when using IE 5 the headlins in the main body slip under the nav bar.
> Is there a quick hack for this or have I made a fundamental cock-up at the
> outset with my code?

It's all you :) I'm guessing the reason IE5 hides your headings is the
"top:1px;" in your #centreblock. When you absolutely position
something, it's positioned in relation to its containing block.

The browser is positioning this div 1 pixel from the top of the body
and your header sits over it thanks to its higher z-index value.

Looking at your document structure, consider using floats instead of
absolute positioning.

These two tutorials by Russ might float your boat:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/floatutorial/tutorial0901.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/process/index_step05.cfm

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Ikon, where are you?

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Ted,

This reply is recognition of your post, though the message is for all
list members:

Yes, "Out of Office" are annoying. This one particularly, as the
automated response was sending back to the list. Usually they're set
to reply to the original poster.

The ever vigilant Core group keep an ever watchful eye for OoO
replies, quickly unsubscribing offenders and emailing explanations
with directions for signing back up.

What can list members do to help? At least two things:

1. Patience.  Please do not speed the growing annoyance by venting to
the list. The offender will be removed at the first available
opportunity. (We try not to let friends, family or fine drinking get
in the way of keeping this list in check.)

2. Virtue. If you're going to be out of the office, be it for a
holiday, work junket or major surgery, please do not boast to the
list. Either set some sort of tricky filter in your email client, or
simply unsubscribe from the list for the duration.


And before anyone gets too harsh, think how you'd like to be treated
when you accidently commit the same sin.

Thanks,

Ben
WSG Core
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Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Bent,

> ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the
> menu seems to work as expected.
> IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I
> solve that problem?
>
> Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-)


IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it.
eg, ...

Taa-daa.

"What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a
good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this
morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?" -Gandalf
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Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Bent,

> ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the
> menu seems to work as expected.
> IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I
> solve that problem?
>
> Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-)


IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it.
eg, ...

Taa-daa.

"What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a
good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this
morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?" -Gandalf
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Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Bent,

> ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the
> menu seems to work as expected.
> IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I
> solve that problem?
>
> Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-)


IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it.
eg, ...

Taa-daa.

"What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a
good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this
morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?" -Gandalf
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Re: [WSG] CSS Drop down menu - Bugfix IE

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Bent,

> ...The menu is tested in Opera, Firefox and Netscape and in these browsers the
> menu seems to work as expected.
> IE, however, give me an unwanted gap when accessing sublevels. How do I
> solve that problem?
>
> Hope some of you wizards out there can help me out :-)


IE has a thing about whitespace around list items. Try removing it.
eg, ...

Taa-daa.

"What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a
good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this
morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?" -Gandalf
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Re: [WSG] What to do when an External Link won't Validate?

[Ben Bishop]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:48:06 -0600, Shane Helm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> An external link to another site doesn't validate (line 40).  I get
> several errors.

Did you read the information provided by the validator?

The first error picked up by the validator is on Line 40, column 69.
  "cannot generate system identifier for general entity 'CompanyID'"

The validator then highlights the problem. It's the "&C" in the URL
  "...?id=90057&CompanyID=0..."

The validator then describes the error. I read it. The bit that jumps
out at me is:
  "If you want to use a literal ampersand in your document you must
encode it as "&" (even inside URLs!)."

The validator has diagnosed what the problem is: the unencoded
ampersands in the url.

It also provides a link that explains why this is an error:
  http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/problems.html#amp

Back to the validation results. The following errors are either the
same problem, or described as "...usually a cascading error..."
meaning if the above error was fixed, these others would probably no
longer be errors.


So to answer your question, "Is there anything I can do to make the
page validate?"
I would follow the validator's advice and replace all "&" in the url
with "&" and then revalidate the page.

And if I had any doubts about this affecting the link, I'd click it
and see what happens.


-ben
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Re: [WSG] CSS Opacity

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Joe,

> placed an image in  the opaque block and it is opaque - but I don't want it
> to be.   Is there a way to turn off the opacity of top image?

As Porter Glendinning replied to a similar post on css-discuss:
"...the problem you're running up against is not one of inheritance.
When you set the opacity of a container it effects everything that
element contains. As far as any descendants of that container are
concerned, 100% opaque now means whatever opacity was set on the
container..."

In fact, Porter goes on to outline the issue and suggests ways to
overcome it at:
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/39758

-ben
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Re: [WSG] Drop Shadows

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Mordechai,

> Client wants drop shadow on the site name and some photos in the header.
> Any thought or alternative methods?

Have you considered a Flash replacement technique like Shaun Inman's?
http://www.shauninman.com/mentary/past/ifr_revisited_and_revised.php

This would provide the desired text styling, and keep your code quite clean.

Variation by Werner and Cameron - scales in line with text resize
http://www.ridingtheclutch.com/entry.cfm?id=36

Using IFR at Sprint - business case and implementation
http://www.zelph.com/archives/2004/06/20/using-ifr-at-sprint/


-ben
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Re: [WSG] [CLOSED] hand coding versus code generators

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Folks,

This question us becoming a regular. Check out previous responses at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?format=short&config=wsg_webstandardsgroup_org&words=editors

Also look at (and contribute to) the "Development and design tools"
category on WSG:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/#cat30

If you'd like to participate in the survey of
i) what people think about hand coding versus code generators?
ii) what percentage of developers totally hand code, use both, use
only code generators?

Please email Simon offlist.

Thanks,

Ben
WSG Core
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Re: [WSG] Character Encoding Mismatch

[Ben Bishop]

> ...if the server is sending the character encoding...Is there
> any other reason to include it, client-side?

Did you read the W3C link posted? ;)

I can't speak with any authority on this matter, and not meaning to
break the unwritten rule of not answering unless you know the answer,
but:

Some servers can be configured to set the HTTP header from the meta
http-equiv or examining the first few bytes of the document.

In the case of server or configuration limitations, the meta
http-equiv can provide user agents with the encoding.

>From http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/charset.html#h-5.2.2

...conforming user agents must observe the following priorities when
determining a document's character encoding (from highest priority to
lowest):
   1. An HTTP "charset" parameter in a "Content-Type" field.
   2. A META declaration with "http-equiv" set to "Content-Type" and a
value set for "charset".
   3. The charset attribute set on an element that designates an
external resource.


-ben
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Re: [WSG] Character Encoding Mismatch

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Sage,

> When I validate my page, I get the following message
> The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (utf-8)  is
> different from the value in the  element  (iso-8859-1).
> I'd like to keep the iso-8859-1 value, just because it seems to work

Your web server (eg Apache) sends the character encoding HTTP header.
In order to match up your HTTP header to your meta-equiv you would
need to make the change server-side, something you might not have
access to do.

This simplest way to match them would be changing your meta tags.

Implications? Check Anne van Kesteren's (of 10 Questions fame:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/anne-van-kesteren.cfm )
"Quick Guide to UTF-8"
http://annevankesteren.nl/archives/2004/06/utf-8

If you're really keen, you can find out more about specifying the
character encoding at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/charset.html#h-5.2.2

- ben
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Re: [WSG] Disapearing list in Firefox 0.9

[Ben Bishop]

> I have just put the test page on a web server. The URL is:
> http://www.rba.gov.au/BC_Test/overview.jsp

To find out what was going with your list, I used Pixy's excellent
"List Computed Styles" favelet (http://pixy.cz/blog/favelets/)

Changing the default "font-size" to "display", then "visible" showed
no styles affecting the visibility of the list. But check the "color"
and you'll see the  is inheriting the #fff of your a:hover

It's all smoke and mirrors. The list never leaves the page, just
camouflaged. White font color against white background.

Easy fix: change the  to 

You might also rethink colouring your a:hover white.

- ben
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Re: [WSG] Disapearing list in Firefox 0.9

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Bhuvnesh,

> When I hover the mouse over an un-ordered list, the list simply
> disappears in FireFox 0.9. Does anybody have a remedy ?

Let's check we have all the available information on this one:

You have an unstyled unordered list inside the  of an otherwise
empty, yet valid (x)HTML page - and when this page is rendered in
Firefox 0.9 and the mouse pointer moved over the list, the list
disappears?

Is your page publicly accessible (and if so, can you provide a URL)?

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Horizontal List problem in IE

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Jaime,

To correctly nest one list within another, open the new list before
closing it's parent 

example:

  Parent

  Child

  



You might look through the list archives for James Ellis' posts
detailing display differences between browsers due to whitespace
between list elements.

And finally, consider replacing the parent raquo and the child pipes
with equivilent background images to clean up your mark-up. I'm sure
this has been already discussed a few times, so help in this
department should be in the archives.

-ben


HTML 4.01
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#idx-list-3
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Re: [WSG] Web Design Price & Web Design Development - Document

[Ben Bishop]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:51:39 +0100 (BST), Viking Karwur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I need your information about web design price and web
> design/dev document...

Viking,

I don't think you will find such off-topic information on a mailing
list devoted to Web Standards - certainly not from the members of this
list.

-ben

p.s. for anyone contemplating answering offlist - I don't want to
upset Viking by suggesting this may be an email address troll, but you
might check the web site before following up as a caution.
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Re: [WSG] Looking for help and critiques on a new site

[Ben Bishop]

> The final problem is when I try and validate the page. Everything validates,
> except the JavaScript for the menus. Now, this JavaScript is taken directly
> from the "Son of Suckerfish" so I was surprised to find that it was coming

Hi Seona,

Quick (but proper) fix for the JS validation, start with:


(Check the source at
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/bones1.html)

-ben
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Re: [WSG] Australian accessiblitly and the law?

[Ben Bishop]

> suggest (could be my friday mind reading it wrong) that pretty much
> /all/ Australian websites are covered by the DDA?

Not pretty much, but ALL Australian web pages. The Disability
Discrimination Act is really quite clear on this.

Back in mid-June last year, Roger Hudson's accessibility talk
explained how the DDA affected us as web developers.

The Act states everybody, regardless of impairment, should have the
same rights to information. Simply making information publicly
available on the web is regarded as offering a service, and is covered
by the DDA. Most countries have similar laws.

Roger's presentation is available for download at
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource4.cfm

Roger will be discussing accessibility at Web Essentials, Sep 30 - Oct 1
http://we04.com/presenters.cfm#hudson

And finally, Roger will cover "Does your website expose you to the
risk of legal action?" at the free Web Essentials briefing in Sydney,
Jul 1.
http://we04.com/briefing.cfm

-ben
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Re: [WSG] Site Deconstruction, those crafty Germans

[Ben Bishop]

> I found this wonderful site (http://www.mbusa.com/brand/index.jsp)
> If my
> interpretation of the rather elegant code is correct, this site has a
> second layout that is rendered if FLASH is not present. Can some one
> please confirm or correct my observation. I've sent an e-mail and poked

They don't serve an alternative layout. Using Javascript they check
for the Flash plug-in, and if found they write the Flash code to the
document, else they enable a couple of stylesheets.

I haven't delved into the scripts or CSS, but looking at the page
source, I assume they display:none; the HTML version. If Flash isn't
found, the enabled stylesheets make the HTML version visible again.

You can see the effect by using this url:
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/index.jsp?noflash=1 

Clever, but not foolproof. No/disabled Javascipt and you get nothing.

If you like this idea, you might be interested in Shaun Inman's Flash
Replacement technique.
http://www.shauninman.com/

-ben
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Re: [WSG] IE4 /Win

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Hanni,

> How good is IE4/win standards wise? Are there any particular problems
> that are widely known with regards to CSS etc?

The first result from
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ie4+css+bugs

RichInStyle.com CSS bug table
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/table.html

RichInStyle.com also have a dedicated IE4 page
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/ie4.html

You might also find Eric Meyer's CSS 1 support chart helpful
http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/css1/mastergrid.html


Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Lost password - ADMIN ISSUES

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Sean and list members,
Please contact Peter and Russ off-list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for admin 
issues such as forgotten passwords.

Please understand that given the amount of hard work these guys do, they 
might not be able to respond to you immediately, but they will try to 
respond as quickly as they can.

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] IE-Win / Floated List Issue

[Ben Bishop]

Michael Donnermeyer wrote:
The Chapters are in an unordered list that's displayed inline and 
floated to the left.  Of course the more proper browsers (Safari, 
Mozillas, Opera, IE-Mac) are handling everything correctly...IE Win 
IE6 under XP is stacking everything vertically.

2.)  No tables.  It's a list after all and not tabular data.
2.) Given the chapters are ordered, you might consider defining this as 
an ordered list.

1.) Whitespace between list items ( ) is a recurring issue on 
this list. IE is known to behave differently than other browsers (check 
the archives for more information.) You should find removing the 
whitespace will give you more consistent results across browsers.

Then, hopefully with Nick's advice it will all work out for you.
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their ac t

[Ben Bishop]

Nancy Johnson wrote:
their users use.   It would take a special interest group, maybe one for 
some disability, to publicize that using IE is inaccessible to them, and 
since IE is fairly accessible to most groups, I don’t see that happening.

At Sydney's April WSG meeting "Checking for Web Access for Blind and 
Vision Impaired", I asked Robert Spriggs from the Royal Blind Society 
which operating system and browser they recommend.

His answer was Windows and Internet Explorer. Adaptive technology (such 
as screen magnifiers, screen readers, talking browsers and Braille 
devices) used by RBS is almost exclusively designed to 
integrate/interface with Windows and IE.

For their clients, Internet Explorer was an important part of 
"accessible Internet."

Ben
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Re: [WSG] identical sites, different servers, display differently??

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Mariusz,
Are you referring to spacing issues between the navigation list items?
Looking at the source, the beta.arc server is stripping out excess 
whitespace. This is known to affect IE6.

Regards,
Ben
Mariusz Stankiewicz wrote:
I have the same site, 1 page + 1 css file located here:
I copied the CSS and the PHP file from one to the other directly and
when I display it in IE6 (works elsewhere) it displays differently
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Re: [WSG] Custom DTD's - MOVED TO DISCUSSION

[Ben Bishop]

Chris wrote:
Ben if this thread is on topic why is the discussions being moved to 
another forum?

This topic has the potential to be beneficial to the list. Currently, 
the discussion is spurious. Until it moves beyond personal opinion and 
misinformation, it probably shouldn't burden list member's mailboxes.

The Discussion Room allows such topics to be nutted out in great detail 
without affecting those not interested. If anything useful results, we 
can post a summary back to the list.

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Custom DTD's - MOVED TO DISCUSSION

[Ben Bishop]

Nelson Ford wrote:
I've seen more and more of this fiddling with DTD's lately, and I'm 
not sure it is a wise thing for us to be going off the standard in 
order to bring back the target attribute

I completely agree that "bringing back" deprecated functionality isn't 
an ideal solution. W3C have made provisions for this with the Legacy module.

Target has not be deprecated, simply relegated to its own module for 
inclusion as/if needed. Target does have valid use for documents that 
will be included in frames.

By including XHTML modules, you aren't bastardising/mutating the 
standard, you are using the standard.

I'd really like to see a discussion on this XHTML extensions/personal 
DTD issue.
While this is absolutely on-topic, we'll have more room to discuss it at
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/14.htm
We can post any valuable findings back to the list.
Cheers,
Ben
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[WSG] Refrain from requesting Return Receipts

[Ben Bishop]

Folks,
As per our mail list guidelines, please do not request "return receipts" 
when posting to the list.
If you need any further information or clarification, please email me 
off list.

Thanks,
Ben
WSG Core
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Trying to add... THREAD CLOSED

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Jake,
This thread has been closed, but please feel free to help Brian out via 
private email.

Thanks
Ben
Jake Badger wrote:
whoops, still haven't been able to test it, but I see I'm, missing a 
dot, so it should be:
 

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Re: [WSG] Trying to add a back to top link

[Ben Bishop]

Have you considered using ... ?

--Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
theGrafixGuy wrote:

I am trying to add a back to top of page link to PHP dynamically generated
pages. The header and footers for these page never change so the anchor is
in the header and the link in the footer.

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Re: [WSG] Web Essentials 04

[Ben Bishop]

> Im a Sydneysider and would love to attend but as a Freelancer the 
cost VS benefit just doesnt make sense for me :-(
> I would have loved to attend, but the costs of flying to Oz (and the 
registration fee) make it impossible for me
> I'm a full-time student, and as such, I'm full-time broke

We always whinge when reading blog posts on some US conference was 
because they had Doug Bowman and Dave Shea talking. Or "why doesn't Joe 
Clark ever come over here?"

Well, somebody has actually organised them to come here and present 
their knowledge to us!

Of course $750 is a lot of money if you've nothing to gain. But as web 
developers, the value to us should far exceed the $750 investment. What 
value?

- Education. Accelerate your learning by finding out in hours what it 
took these top-notch gurus years to learn. Not just improving your 
skills, but increasing _your_ value to your employer.
- Experience. What works, what doesn't, and for whom.
- Insight. Big names in the same place at the same time - you'd be a 
wally if you didn't talk shop, shoot the breeze, and pick their brains.
- Motivation. Two days of Web Standards rapidly followed by many, many 
late nights of building great things. Re-ignite your passion.

You can spend $500, $1000, or more, per day for training courses. This 
is only $750 for 2 days, and check out some of those speakers!

Could anyone not get value from this conference? Absolutely. All you 
need to do is cross your arms and say "Big, dumb web standards."

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Re: [WSG] CSS Shorthand for color

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Brian,

There's no magic to it. Straight from the W3C:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-css3-color-20010305#numerical
"The format of an RGB value in hexadecimal notation is a '#' immediately 
followed by either three or six hexadecimal characters. The three-digit 
RGB notation (#rgb) is converted into six-digit form (#rrggbb) by 
replicating digits, not by adding zeros. For example, #fb0 expands to 
#ffbb00. This ensures that white (#ff) can be specified with the 
short notation (#fff) and removes any dependencies on the color depth of 
the display."

Browser compatibility resources are easily found with a little Googling. 
A good example:
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/index.html

Regards,

-Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
theGrafixGuy wrote:

Does anyone know of a calculator or reference one can use to translate hex into triple hex?
Referring here to using #FFF instead of #FF for white as an example.
 

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Re: [WSG] XHTML: 1.0 transitional->1.0 strict->1.1

[Ben Bishop]

Chris Stratford wrote:

but as we all know - XHTML doesnt allow the TARGET attribute...

Let's not perpetuate misinformation here. You _can_ use the TARGET 
attribute in XHTML. Check the replies to your 8/2/04 post titled "XHTML 
(OT??)"

You'll find good information in the W3C's "XHTML Abstract Modules":
"When developing documents or defining a profile for a class of 
documents, content developers can determine which of these modules are 
essential for conveying their message."

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/abstract_modules.html

Cheers,

-Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Ben Bishop]

Jackie,

Why won't the content sit up where it should here 
http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php want the stuff that starts home 
>> new2 to sit up in the middle there and it just won't!! driving me 
nuts, nuts, nuts.
It won't sit up there because all the content you want to sit beside 
that floated "navinsert" are block level elements with widths of 100%.
ie: (150px + 100%) width does not fit into the 100% width of the parent 
container.

That's why the content wraps below. Sounds dubious? Add 
"display:inline;" to your H2 and it will jump straight up there.

As for a fix, your wrapping container is fixed width, so enclose all 
your middle content in a div that is 800px-(side columns widths) wide 
and float this left.

hth,

Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
Note: Your container is set at 800px wide. If you're targeting PC 
800x600 minimum screen resolution, this should be 770px max, to take 
into account browser chrome and scrollbar.

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Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Kay,

> well as some awesome-looking examples of styled headings, to make them

Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way 
through the article at:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/

Cheers,

--ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Coding Standard...

[Ben Bishop]

I'll put my hand up for the "goofy style." It's my preference, my habit 
- be it CSS rules, functions, CFScript, what have you.

In a team environment, I'd use whatever style made it easier for the 
whole team to concentrate on the work at hand.

What's next? Space or tab indentation? :)

--ben

If I work on your stylesheet, I'll try to follow your style.
If I inherit your stylesheet, I'll format it my way.
If you screw up my stylesheet with weird formatting - I'll chuck a wobbly.
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[WSG] WSG/NMUG Meeting (Sydney) this Monday, 23 Feb

[Ben Bishop]

This Monday evening is the Web Standards Group / National Macromedia 
User Group Meeting!

Everyone is invited. This should be a great evening as developers from 
around country and around the world converge for MXDU2004 DevCon.

SPECIAL EVENT
 This meeting will be held on Monday night at Star City rather than
 Thursday at the Australian Museum.
Date
 Monday 23 February, 2004
Time
 6:00pm - Social Gathering/Networking
 6:30pm - MXDU early registration
 7:00pm - Official Start
 9:00pm - cash bar provided for post meeting drinks
Venue
 Star City, Darling Harbour, Sydney, Australia
 http://www.mxdu.com/go/venue/
Cost
 FREE!
Proposed Agenda

7:00pm
 Welcome: Ed Sullivan, Tim Buntel and Mike Chambers from Macromedia
7:30pm
 Russ Weakley, Max Design: "Practical benefits of web standards for
 your visitors, your clients and you"
8:00pm
 Sean Corfield, Director of Architecture in IT at Macromedia:
 "Accessible & Compliant - a brief look at accessibility and web
 standards compliance at macromedia.com"
8:30pm
 Panel: Question time
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event6.cfm

See you all there!

-- ben bishop

MXDU2004 + Macromedia DevCon AsiaPac + Sydney, Australia
http://www.mxdu.com/ + 24-25 February, 2004
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Re: [WSG] Can a list have one item?

[Ben Bishop]

Wow man, that's deep.

I would say yes. You are simply stating what follows is a collection of 
elements. It might be zero, one or many elements.

The purpose of wrapping  around your item(s) is to put those item(s) 
into context.

To answer your second question, I'd say it's not a list when you choose 
it not to be!

But maybe I'm wrong.

Cheers,
Ben
James Ellis wrote:

This is a bit existential, but can a list have one item?

When is a list not a list anymore?


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Re: [WSG] Unordered list with id

[Ben Bishop]

Oops. I actually meant:

Quick fix. You can make either (or both) of the following changes:

#mcqnav .thisquestionlink {
   background: red;
}
OR

.thisquestionlink {
   background: red !important;
}
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Re: [WSG] Unordered list with id

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Gavin,

Quick fix. You can make either (or both) of the following changes:

#mcqnav .thisquestionlink {
   background: red;
}
OR

#mcqnav .thisquestionlink {
   background: red !important;
}
Regards,
Ben
Gavin Cooney wrote:

Now i want to highlight the current page using a different CSS style. I have
tried all sorts of combinations, and in this example i have an
ID="thisquestion" on the relevant  and a class="thisquestionlink" on the
 inside the .
 

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Re: [WSG] Cool No-delay image rollover technique

[Ben Bishop]

I experience the same issue as Peter in Firefox with caching turned off.
(although I don't see a delay, I know it's loading a fresh copy of the 
image when the firewall winks at me every time I roll over tabs on the 
Fast Company web site.)

Here's a real purdy looking tutorial from Dan Cedarholm, note the 
comments bring up this very issue.
http://www.simplebits.com/archives/2003/09/30/accessible_imagetab_rollovers.html

I agree with Peter, it's a clean way to handle roll-overs. And the 
majority of users might have caching turned on. Otherwise if you follow 
the link at the bottom of the Pixy tutorial, there's a simple band-aid.

Regards,
Ben
Peter Firminger wrote:

I know I have my browser (IE 6 WinXP Pro) set to not cache anything, 
but this method doesn't work for me. Over a second delay on rollover 
and roll off with a blank space in the meantime. It makes no 
difference to a JavaScript preload at all. Much better code though so 
I'm not canning it.

*From:* Michael Kear
**
Using this technique you can get all the graphical/ 3d advantages
of javascript rollovers, but instead of javascript it uses CSS to
move an image around giving the rollover effect.
The article’s at
http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/cssnopreloadrollovers/
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Re: [WSG] IE 5 position problems

[Ben Bishop]

Hi James,

Without my trusty toolkit handy, I can't answer why it is breaking, I
suspect it is probably a box-model issue as you say, but I do have a
suggestion that might fix the problems.
As you have a fixed-width layout, explicitly setting widths for both
columns and "float:left"ing the first column, changing
#containerProductUpdates to "float:right" instead of "margin-left:auto"
should make things simpler for the browser to nut out.
   #containerProductUpdates
   {
   float:right;
   /* margin-left:auto; */
   padding:0px;
   width:387px
   }
hth,
Ben
Only one week till the joint Web Standards Group / Macromedia User
Groups meeting at Star City and MXDU!
www.mxdu.com
James Gollan wrote:

The rendering problems are:

 ·   in IE5 (Win) the top edges of the two columns are not even;

·   In IE5.5 Win the spacing between the columns is too close;



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Re: [WSG] Might Find This Interesting...

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Chris,

I think this is really clever. Sure it only provides a visual cue, but 
it's very effective. Nice work.

Regards,
Ben
Chris Stratford wrote:

I decided to use a method for displaying the list - unlike any i have 
seen...
let me know what you think - i just need to your opinion on how it looks.
it uses the link:visited method, which i havn't seen used much...


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Re: [WSG] Tenth AIMIA Awards announced

[Ben Bishop]

If you remember Cameron (bloo man) posting something recently about 
starting a "standards" awards, or even if you dont:

http://www.webstandardsawards.com/

-Ben
http://www.mxdu.com/
Mark Stanton wrote:

Ok that was my initial reaction on seeing the awards site - I didn't send
the email at 4pm because I thought there was too much emotion there & not
enough thought. I've chilled a bit now & here's my take.
 

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Re: [WSG] Help with a bit of code plz

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Ryan,

Just as you specified the number of character rows (vertical), you also 
need to specify the number of character columns (horizontal.)
Your mark-up would like something like:

...e="txtMessage" rows="5" cols="50" title="Enter your message">

Regards,
Ben
info wrote:

And can anyone plz plz plz explain what this means:

Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML
parser.
  1. Line 53, column 67: required attribute "cols" not specified
(explain...).
 ...e="txtMessage" rows="5" title="Enter your message">
 

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Re: [WSG] XHTML

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Chris,

Sure, on the surface XHTML may seem pretty stingy on features, but 
that's only because it's misunderstood.

The modularisation of XHTML breaks HTML down into smaller pieces. These 
small DTD modules allow lightweight devices to deliver content without 
the overhead of an "encompassing all" DTD.

XHTML has four core modules - Structure, Text, Hypertext and Lists - and 
can be extended with other modules.
note: the XHTML1.1 DTD provides the core modules as well as several 
others including Images, Forms, Tables, Stylesheets and more.

So if you want to use Target in XHTML, simply load in the Target module! 
Accessify have a great tutorial addressing your very issue:
http://www.accessify.com/tutorials/standards-compliant-new-windows.asp

You can even build your own modules:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-xhtml-building-2105/
And it's all very valid.

Cheers,
Ben
Chris Stratford wrote:

Hey guys, im just learning about XHTML – sorry if this is Off Topic…

I don’t think its too off topic as XHTML is going to become the 
replacement of HTML, and since it’s governed by standards too!

How can you make a LINK open in a new window in XHTML??

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[WSG] Special Sydney WSG Meeting!

[Ben Bishop]

The next Sydney meeting is just two and half weeks away!

This is a joint Web Standards Group, Macromedia User Group and Cold 
Fusion User Group meeting. Please note the change of day and venue!

Date: Monday, 23 February 2004

Time: 6.00pm for 7.00pm

Venue: Star City, Darling Harbour, Sydney Australia
  (http://www.mxdu.com/go/venue/)
Cost: FREE! And giveaways!

As a lead in to the MXDU 2004 conference, the special joint Web 
Standards Group, Macromedia User Group and Cold Fusion User Group 
Meeting is an event you will not want to miss.

Russ Weakley of Max Design will deliver a web standards presentation on 
the practical benefits to your visitors, your clients and yourself!

Our special guest speaker is Sean Corfield, Director of Architecture at 
Macromedia, all the way from San Francisco.
Sean will explain how Macromedia created its Accessibility Guidelines, 
and let us know how well they adhere to them and other standards.

If you can make it, please help us by sending an RSVP to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web Standards Group
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/
About MXDU 2004
MXDU is all about building the best experiences and Rich Internet 
Applications on the web. Featuring a stellar line up of speaking talent 
from around the world and separate client-side, server-side and 
experience tracks; if you use any shade of Macromedia technology you 
have to attend this event!
To find out more please visit http://www.mxdu.com/

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Re: [WSG] shorthand borders

[Ben Bishop]

Hi James,

Correct? Yes, you are cascading.
You've cleared any border styling imposed by the browser, then set your 
own value.

The validator shouldn't have any issue with it.

Cheers,
Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
James Ellis wrote:

border : none;
border-top : 2px solid #315279;


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Re: [WSG] Second try with [a name]

[Ben Bishop]

Taco,

Your initial post stated the issue was:

to overcome the issue where I have a global style for the a 
element which is also applied to the a name element.

At this stage, you're trying fix your fix:

HTML 4.01: "User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty 
A elements, but some fail to do so."
Some fail to do so, hhmmm, so a   would do the trick? Maybe with display: none so it doesn't take up any space??

Take a step back. Two suggestions:

 i. Can you apply your styles to "a:link" instead? Thus keeping "a" 
unstyled.
ii. Are you wrapping your named anchors around headings? You might 
style the "a", and override with "h2" styles.

hth,

Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Second try with [a name]

[Ben Bishop]

Taco,

Blacklisted? Now there's an idea ;-)

The simple answer to your question is:

HTML 4.01: "User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty 
A elements, but some fail to do so."
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#edef-A

XHTML 1.0: "has deprecated the name attribute of the a, applet, form, 
frame, iframe, img, and map elements, and it will be removed from XHTML 
in subsequent versions."
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#C_8

It's all in the W3C specifications.

Regards,

-- Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
Taco Fleur wrote:

Not sure what the prob is, maybe I am being blacklisted? ;-))



Is this still correct though, having nothing in between the tags?

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Re: [WSG] reply to Safari question

[Ben Bishop]

Using an User Agent switcher, you can see how some sites serve up 
different content based on the user agent.

For a demonstration of making content accessible to different users, in 
this case search engines such as Google, camouflage yourself with the 
Googlebot UA and visit some Microsoft web pages.

Regards,
Ben
Nick Lo wrote:

ability to set the User Agent HTTP header to say it's another browser.
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Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge

[Ben Bishop]

Justin,

...doesn't preview content 'below the fold'...doesn't let you preview 
behaviour of pseudo classes or the behaviour of JavaScript...doesn't 
allow the tester to play with various user preferences, system 
preferences, and things like increasing or decreasing font sizes...


True it's not without limitations, but it's an amazingly useful tool 
allowing you to preview your layout across multiple browsers and platforms.

I don't have a mindset of pixel perfect at all, but I do care about 
accessibility.  Forget about design for a second here -- the hard fact 
remains that there are far too many bugs in today's common browsers 
(IE5.5 being my pet hate) to assume that "standards compliant = 
accessible".


I'm glad you agree with me on this. The hard fact that is if you build 
complex designs they will render differently across browsers.

--Ben

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Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge

[Ben Bishop]

Peter,

It exists. It's platform independent. It even overcomes the inherent 
flaws of browser "emulators" and "simulators." It's called Browsercam. 
You can even use it at http://www.browsercam.com/  But shhh, you aren't 
allowed to tell anyone.

You could simply stanch the tears, salve the pain and save the effort by 
changing your mindset of pixel perfect in every browser, every platform.

Why exhaust your time attempting to satisfy different 0.x% segments of 
visitors, when perhaps y% of your visitors will not appreciate _your_ 
design or purposely use technology that breaks it in order to achieve 
_their_ goals (eg. Google cache, assistive technology, ctrl+mousewheel.)

Building a good looking standards compliant site that delivers its 
message across all browsers, all platforms, all devices without 
resorting to hacks or work-arounds is highly achievable. It comes down 
to how you choose to spend your time.

--Ben

"Telling me that I've made the wrong choice will not change anything, 
because there are almost no objectively wrong choices in this area.There 
are only tradeoffs."
- Eric Meyer on his site redesign, http://www.meyerweb.com/

Universal Head wrote:

 app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a 
popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which 
it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and 
checking within one browser app.


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Re: [WSG] Entification (was: Last error on Validator)

[Ben Bishop]

Not to disagree with anyone here, and perhaps one of our well-versed 
members will correct me, but isn't entification marked as "recommended" 
in HTML 4.01?
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html#h-5.3.2

HTML 4.01 does not output valid XML, and while entification is 
considered ideal, Taco isn't actually breaking the rules set for his 
chosen doctype.

I personally believe it's good form to use anything that reduces 
code-debt. By dealing with this now, you won't have to worry about it 
if/when you move up to xml-based doctypes.

-Ben

Peter Firminger wrote:

Absolutely, one of the big ones in designing a CMS (or blog) or making 
sure a static site is standards compliant (see 

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdevelopment.tacofleur.com%2Findex%2Fmethodology%2F

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Re: [WSG] New CMS / Framework

[Ben Bishop]

While ideally I would address nearly every point in Mike's email, it 
would benefit probably few of the members on this list and have little 
effect on his opinion of Daemon.
Most importantly and likely, it would serve as a catalyst for an 
extended debate of off-topic technologies.

For anyone interested in the open source FarCry CMS, please see:
http://farcry.daemon.com.au/
For discussion of its excellent features and near limitless 
extensibility, I would encourage you to find out from real developers 
(some of whom have never touched Spectra) around the world at:
news://lists.daemon.com.au/farcry-dev / 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please allay any fears about shared hosting by speaking with 
professional web hosting companies such as:
http://www.fasthit.net/
http://www.austiger.com.au/

Or email me directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,

Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
Committed to web development communities since 1995
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Re: [WSG] Subject headings (was: ?)

[Ben Bishop]

Taco Fleur wrote:

I am having a bit of a blond day, so blond I can't even think of a 
subject for this email.


Hi Taco,

If you're stuck for a subject header, this great resource, found by 
following links from a recently posted link by Mark Stanton, has a good 
section on writing effective, meaningful and specific subject headers.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Web Editor?

[Ben Bishop]

Check out RealObject's edit-on
http://www.realobjects.com/Overview.552.0.html
regards,
Ben
Justin French wrote:

And which one works in most of the browsers?
I've given up on these WYSIWYG editors -- the lack of support on Mac 
platforms (in which I spend 99% of my time), and the lack of standards 
support is really 




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RE: [WSG] Follow up (was: What have I missed here?)

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Mike,

Just on the ampersand issue (and in fairness to Peter, I'm just rewording
his post):

> I'm not sure about the ampersand.  It's a dynamic field
> coming form the
> client's inventory database and I don't think I'll be asking
> him to change
> his inventory and invoicing system just so it can please a
> web validator.

There's no change required to your client's data or systems, simply an extra
step at the ColdFusion display page level.

Same as when inserting data into the database you might replace/escape
single quotes to avoid SQL errors, when outputting DB content in your page
you should substitute characters reserved for XML with their HTML entity.
Eg: "e; & < >

So rather than #databasefield#, you could use
#xmlFormat(databasefield)# to convert " ' & < > into
safe HTML entities. Or, just like Peter's example, you can write your own
function.

You keep data integrity, the code is valid and the browser displays the
expected character.

Kind regards and Christmas cheer,

Ben

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Re: [WSG] Rollover bug in Firebird 0.7

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Ben,

 I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on a stange bug I'm 
getting in Firebird 0.7 on a PC.
 On one of my sites www.thesydneypost.com 
 I'm getting a stange effect in the 
Pyrmont + Roseville styles when you rollover the links in the sidebar. 
I'm using one of the image-replacement techniques to display the images:


Without telling us what the bug is, we don't know what your links 
should/should not be doing, nor what the strange effect is.

They appear fine in my "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; 
rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 Firebird/0.7" in as much that the list bullets 
display, the link list headings display and the links themselves 
underline on :hover.

Regards,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

[Ben Bishop]

It's broken. The menu uses Javascript to dynamically create fly-out 
menus. It doesn't work in my Mac/Safari 1.1 nor Win/Firebird 0.7. It 
does work in Win/IE 6

Without delving, I would hazard a guess that IE specific JS statements 
are disabling the menu.

Cheers,
Ben
Jonathan Baldwin wrote:

I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD 
review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're 
all just # links.
I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work 
before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case 
of "this site does not support Macs?" Whatever the problem my bleary 
eyes just aren't seeing it.

I'm interested to know the reason it's "broken" (if it is) so I can 
use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.



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Re: [WSG] Wierdness...

[Ben Bishop]

IE6 does have the box model problem - when it's it Quirks mode (as 
opposed to Standards mode).

What will put IE6 in Quirks mode? Anything before the  - such 
as an XML prologue!

Cheers,
Ben
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 



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RE: [WSG] Too Much Space..

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Taco,

Don't give up on it - once it clicks, you'll never taint your code with
layout tables again!

The following isn't really structured, more a collection of statements:

Don't attempt to force the CSS into recreating the restrictive confines of a
table layout. CSS layouts do require a fundamental change in thinking, but
the freedom you have is incredible.
Cross-platform / cross-browser support is exceptional for practically all
the things you need to do. It's good for most things you want to do, and
then there's the fun in pushing the boundaries for things you'd like to do.

As with anything, proficiency comes with experience. You have a tremendous
wealth of information available to shortcut your learning.

You don't need to jump straight in at CSS Zen Garden level (where all the
designers have probably been working with CSS for a few years now). My first
intro was Rob Chandanais' Layout Reservoir at http://www.bluerobot.com/

Consider building a few dummy sites to test out things, rather than feeling
pressured with client deadlines looming over you.

Now, not to fob you off or suggest the wise words of a bunch of losers who
have nothing better to do on their weekend than work aren't helpful...
but have you seen the css-discuss Wiki?
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/

And I think Russ' tutorials are fantastic:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/


Anyway, I've got to get back to work :)

Cheers,
Ben


-Original Message-

> > Can I just add, I was convinced, but now back to where I originally
> > stood, that is, I believe there are to many hacks that need to be
> > applied to get the layout as you want it.


> > I might give the total CSS layout a rest for a while again ;-((

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RE: [WSG] contextual

[Ben Bishop]

Title: Message



Hi 
Taco,
 
Lifted 
straight from Douglas Bowman's "Making the Absolute, 
Relative"
http://www.stopdesign.com/also/articles/absolute/
 

an 
absolute-positioned 
element is positioned according to its containing 
block"

 

If 
an absolute-positioned element resides within no other containing block, (when 
no ancestor elements are positioned) it is placed relative to the page 
boundaries (called the initial containing 
block)

 
hth,
Ben

  -Original Message-
  I believe the left 
  100px is still calculated from the browser and not from where the div is 
  located, should it not calculate the absolute position where ever the div is 
  located?
   

Re: [WSG] LI horizontal headaches - help sought

[Ben Bishop]

Thanks Scott,

Here I was about to say "this works for Moz but not IE, same with 
enclosing the UL in a DIV with background colour"... then I thought I'd 
better make sure I didn't have an XML prologue on the test page!

Egads! Quirks mode strikes again.

IE5 and IE5.5 aren't perfect, but all the other browsers are fine.

Cheers,
Ben
scott parsons wrote:

howsa bout this...
I added some padding and a duplicate border to the ul
the moved the right border to the a rather than the li


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[WSG] LI horizontal headaches - help sought

[Ben Bishop]

Hi gurus,

Feels like a Friday. I'm replicating a designer's page concept, and the 
primary navigation is really bugging me now.

You can see my attempt so far, along with Browsercam results in various 
browsers at
http://www.daemon.com.au/test12/css/navlist.htm

I'm happy with the minimal mark-up and the font-size scalability, but:

   i) In Moz and Mac browsers, the UL background colour is only as high 
as the LI's font-size.
   ii) Sometimes the 1px right-border on a LI disappears. This is shown 
in the Moz images below, between Vixon and Rudolph. In Firebird I get 
different borders disappearing when resizing font size.

Notes:
The IE6 screenshot is what I'm after across all browsers.
The "button" labels are meant to be bottom-right aligned.
My attempt with DIVs had more issues cross-platform/browsers.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] [OT] XSL

[Ben Bishop]

Hi James,

You can use "position() mod 2 = 1" in your stylesheet. Do a Google 
search for examples.

Here's two different ways:
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-xslt5.html
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/xsl-list/1422468
Regards,

- Ben
http://www.daemon.com.au/
James Silva wrote:

Now, after getting it all working, i've been informed by the graphics
department that we need alternating row background colours.
Is this possible with XSLT? Or do i need to look at doing some pre/post
processing of my data using ASP?
 



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[WSG] Seminar: Macromedia's "Creating Accessible Websites with Macromedia MX 2004"

[Ben Bishop]

Macromedia have free seminars on "Creating Accessible Websites with 
Macromedia MX 2004" around Australia.

Topics to be covered at the seminar include -

   * Accessible Design: International Trends and Practices
   * Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Design and accessibility
   * Accessible Rich Media Design with Macromedia Flash MX 2004
   * Creating accessible web applications
Melbourne - 2 December
Canberra - 3 December
Sydney - 4 December
Perth - 5 December
More info
http://www.macromedia.com/go/DMYD_AAJF
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Re: [WSG] Dave Shea's Mezzoblue

[Ben Bishop]

Nice to see the Lindsay method featured :)

http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/

Cheers,
Ben
Mark Stanton wrote:

Anyway, along with Zeldman I think this blog is essential reading for anyone
involved with CSS/HTML. Lots of great up to the minute content on a range of
issues. Read it regularly!
 

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Re: [WSG] Intro...

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Stuart,

Welcome to the group!

Cheers,
Ben
stuart wrote:

G'day,
just signed up, found this group via John Allsop of WestCiv.


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Re: [WSG] A few interesting articles...

[Ben Bishop]

Mark, Mike,

Seems fine from Daemon HQ.

Cheers,
Ben
C:\>ping bluegrass.org.au

Pinging bluegrass.org.au [64.191.62.205] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 64.191.62.205: bytes=32 time=360ms TTL=107
Reply from 64.191.62.205: bytes=32 time=471ms TTL=107
Reply from 64.191.62.205: bytes=32 time=360ms TTL=107
Reply from 64.191.62.205: bytes=32 time=351ms TTL=107
Ping statistics for 64.191.62.205:
   Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
   Minimum = 351ms, Maximum =  471ms, Average =  385ms
Mark Stanton wrote:

Mark, when you say my Bluegrass Australia site "isn't working for me",  do
you mean it's dead?  Or that it is working but with errors?
   

C:\>ping www.bluegrass.org.au
Unknown host www.bluegrass.org.au.
C:\>ping bluegrass.org.au
Unknown host bluegrass.org.au.
Can't get to the domain. I know there have been some big issues with
connectivity over the past few days. Quick poll - can anyone else get to it?
 

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Re: [WSG] Modify class

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Taco,

Off the top of my head (and untested) I'd try something like:


.help {
   display:none;
   font-weight: bold;
   font-size: 14px;
   color: red;
   cursor: help;
   }

...

Regards,
Ben
Taco Fleur wrote:

Is it possible to modify the attribuites of a CLASS dynamically?
In other words, I now have a page with 200 objects on it, 20 of them 
are of CLASS:helpHidden, when help is clicked I now loop over all 
objects in the page and see if the object is of CLASS:helpHidden, if 
so then change the class to helpDisplay, obviously this takes a while 
and to me it looks like there should be a better way of doing it. Like 
for example change the properties of the class itself, for example;



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[WSG] Browsers visiting "ongoing"

[Ben Bishop]

Tim Bray of Antartica reveals ongoing's browser market share from May 
through October of 2003, with some remarks on methodology.

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/11/11/Late2003Browsers

Cheers,
Ben
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RE: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Miles,

There are several ways of accomplishing this. Here are three different ways
I've done:

content (multiple block elements) floated right, image floated left.
http://www.mxdu.com/

image (accommodates variable width) floated left, content floated left -
inline styles.
http://www.brendansisson.com/

image floated left, content floated left.
http://www.leyland.com.au/


All use "clear" to stop things going whack when there's insufficient
content.

Cheers,

Ben


-Original Message-
Subject: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap

Can this be achieved without using tables?

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Re: [WSG] Style to create input field look?

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Taco,

If you want to recreate the default look of the input field using CSS by 
specifying OS colours etc, take a look at this w3c page:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ui.html#system-colors

Regards,

Ben

Taco Fleur wrote:

No just real input fields.

Taco Fleur wrote:
 

What I meant was, how to recreate the default look of the input field. For example take a input field and do not apply any CSS to it, that it the look I want to recreate exactly the same. And not by not applying a style to it.
   



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[WSG] Site redesign by Dave Shea: Fog Creek Software

[Ben Bishop]

Dave Shea redesigned Fog Creek Software's site.

http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/11/03/fog_creek_so/

Validation nutters beware!

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Re: [WSG] Firebird bug? Oh nos, not semantics!

[Ben Bishop]

I was thinking that perhaps DLs are best suited for name/value pairs 
where the value is static (definition/form field/actor's lines) and 
tables perhaps better suited to changing values.

Mark Stanton wrote:

I'm tieing myself up in knots trying to explain this, but my gut feel is
that dl/dd/dt is cool for name/value pairs of *any* sort, even if you are
not defining a term.
 



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Re: [WSG] Firebird bug? Oh nos, not semantics!

[Ben Bishop]

Hi Mark,

As Lindsay and Scott answered your question, I'll ask a more general 
"semantic" one.

Having read the Clagnut post regarding using DLs for pairings, what are 
your thoughts on using the definition list for this purpose?
Would a table be more appropriate for expressing the relationship 
between a collection of labels and their numeric values?

Just thoughts,

Ben

Mark Stanton wrote:

I'm trying to get dl/dt/dd list thingo from http://www.clagnut.com/blog/241/
going and I seem to have found an issue with it in Firebird.
My basic setup is:

subheading 1
definition list 1
subheading 2
definition list 2
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[WSG] pre-WSG Sydney meeting mood-setter

[Ben Bishop]

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Abeer

Anyone attending tonight's Sydney meeting and in the vicinity from 6pm, 
there's an informal drink at William Hotel, corner of William St & 
Yurong (38 seconds down the hill from the Museum's William St entrance).

Followed by the formal agenda at the Australian Museum:
6:30pm - Informal start/Networking
7:00pm - Official start
Cheers,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Icon and Aura

[Ben Bishop]

Can't quite replicate the hover state, but:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=26543
Lindsay Evans wrote:

Only tested in FB 0.6.1, IE 6 on XP (I'm lazy today).

Suggestions welcome.
   

Oh, and I know the hover thing isn't working in IE.
IE is a PITA & can go to hell :)
 

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[WSG] University of Washington's conversion

[Ben Bishop]

Just stumbled across the University of Washington's interesting 
'reasons, goals and results' presentation on converting their homepage 
and another page from table-based to XHTML+CSS

http://staff.washington.edu/fmf/xhtml+css/.

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