Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Steve Green wrote: The http://www.fosterandpartners.com is not a good example at all. I can see at a glance that it violates at least three WCAG Priority 2 checkpoints, and that's without even looking at the code. Some pages violate Priority 1 requirements too. That's a shame because I really ne

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

ilto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, 15 August, 2007 22:55 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design? "Explain to them how much more money they can make..." Just how much can they make? Where's the proof

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Andrew Maben wrote: On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Philip Kiff wrote: ...you are not approaching the client-designer relationship in a way that means "the customer is always right". You are rather approaching it from a perspective that the customer does not know what is right... The client

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

W3C technologies. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 15 August 2007 22:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design? > That's a shame because I really

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

That's a shame because I really need stunning examples of accessible, standards-compliant design to show our clients what is possible. Is there nothing on Accessites.org that makes the grade? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

g examples of accessible, standards-compliant design to show our clients what is possible. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Designer Sent: 15 August 2007 13:20 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability & Acce

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

r an unquantifiable benefit. By contrast, we have nothing to lose. Is it any wonder they are sceptical? Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas Sent: 15 August 2007 12:14 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE:

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

James Jeffery wrote: However, if you want see an example where prestige is also crucial, but the designer has use compliant methods and passed 508 validation (at least) see: http://www.fosterandpartners .com/Practice/Default.aspx I dont mean to pick on this web

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

However, if you want see an example where prestige is also crucial, but the designer has use compliant methods and passed 508 validation (at least) see: http://www.fosterandpartners > > .com/Practice/Default.aspx I dont mean to pick on this website, but from looking at

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Frank Palinkas wrote: > > IMHO I would like to add one important factor to this. Money. I would like to throw a spanner in the works here. There are cases where a client is as interested in PRESTIGE as he is in money. See, for example: http://www.

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

James Jeffery wrote: When i said design, i was referring to the hi-end graphical content. The sites that are there to amaze people and go 'how did they do that' which is they way alot of people seem to be heading due to convention. That's the "visual design" part of a visual design. Much like

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Philip Kiff wrote: ...you are not approaching the client-designer relationship in a way that means "the customer is always right". You are rather approaching it from a perspective that the customer does not know what is right... The client is hiring you, presum

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:07 PM, Andrew Boyd wrote: It is scary that people still make the distinction between “design” and “usability/accessibility/fitness for purpose”. Exactly! While “usability/accessibility/fitness for purpose” alone do not define "good" design, good design *must* encompass

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

hat doesn't work, then politely wish them a good day and congratulations on eventually becoming their own best customer. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Wednesday, 15 August, 2007 12:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Ok i think some people have missed the point a bit, but its probably my fault. When i said design, i was referring to the hi-end graphical content. The sites that are there to amaze people and go 'how did they do that' which is they way alot of people seem to be heading due to convention. A clien

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

If it has poor usability its actually bad design, because design isn't just visual style. If visual style wins out over usability then its ALWAYS BAD DESIGN. There is no way around it... Unless this is some highly specialized site like a quirky flash game or something else that we are not conc

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

not be resized and the colours cannot be changed. sIFR is still too flaky (at least all the examples I have seen are). Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Palac Sent: 14 August 2007 23:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Usabili

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Philip Kiff wrote: > If you have enough time to browse the WSG Mailing List [] > then you are probably already at risk of having the > prices for your web design services severely undercut by someone who > is younger and faster, and who places less importance on > "ac

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

James Jeffery wrote: > It is possible to get good Accessibility, Usability and Design, but > usually you have to give and take for each or one of them. > [] > Its not our fault or the clients fault, whatever the > client wants he gets > [...] > The client is the hard part. Sometimes they want s

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

MAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of minim Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 7:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design? Hi James, On 14 Aug 2007, at 13:43, James Jeffery wrote: Web Standards, Accessibility and Usability needs to be put right at the t

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

7;t > possible > to achieve the level of accessibility the client wants without making > compromises. I so wish it was otherwise because this is a battle I don't > want to have. > > Steve > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL P

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Hi James, On 14 Aug 2007, at 13:43, James Jeffery wrote: Web Standards, Accessibility and Usability needs to be put right at the top of the list, way before design. Focus on the users and the people, and it will help to create and bring the internet up to a better standard. I agree whol

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Why should the client be the hard part of usability or accessibility? As a web designer/developer, its my job to create the accessible version whether they consciously desire it or not simply because I know it should be built that way and it is my desire to build it properly. Its also my job

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Joseph Taylor wrote: Every document should start as a plain, accessible HTML document. That's true -- for *documents*. But many "web sites" these days are *applications*, not collections of static documents. Web applications represent a significantly different design problem, particularly i

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design? There's no reason to have to sacrifice on either end of the scale. Every document should start as a plain, accessible HTML document. If the information on the document is well organized and logical, its already usable. At this point, progressive

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

I know it seems like im comparing the web to the real world, but nowerdays the web is a part of the real world. If you were to give disabled users second best in the real world and not offer them the same experience and non disabled people i tell you there would be hell breaking loose. Especially h

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

With plain HTML its accessible, if its done correct in the first place. Its the visual design which were talking about. Forcing the user to resize there fonts, or disable CSS or Javascript to be able to read a page is asking a bit to much from them. People are hacking away at there CSS and sometim

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

There's no reason to have to sacrifice on either end of the scale. Every document should start as a plain, accessible HTML document. If the information on the document is well organized and logical, its already usable. At this point, progressive enhancements on all ends can be used to integ

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Exactly the responses i expected. It is possible to get good Accessibility, Usability and Design, but usually you have to give and take for each or one of them. More often then not a website focused on good Accessibility and Usability generally lacks a 'hi-tech' design, not that any of that is a b

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Web Standards, Accessibility and Usability needs to be put right at the top of the list, way before design. I won't argue with that but all of those things are generally a harder sell to a client than the more superficial aspects of a project like the graphic design. -- Tyssen Design www.

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

My general school of thought is that usability is a product of good UI design and accessibility is a product of good coding practice. Of course UI design and coding overlap, in that they both impact both fields, so it is the job of the designer AND front-end developer to make things tick for as man

Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Thats an excellent read James, well first my name is MJ I never introduced myself before and just jumped in discussions straight so Hi I am from London and I work at http://www.biginteractive.co.uk/ as a frontend designer. Now back to the matter in hand , this situation is certainly is out of the

[WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

Good Evening. Does Or Should Design Out-Weight Usability and/or Accessibility? Ive been faced with a number of situations during development on a number of projects that has forced me make a choice you have all probably had to make Usability/Accessibility over design. I know Usability and Access