Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Peter J. Farrell]

matt andrews wrote:


Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
 

I like where the W3C Validator says that a page with the start attribute 
is invalid whereas Tidy says it's ok...


I'm in total agreement that start shouldn't have been dropped.  There 
are several legal type documents that require things to be numbered.  
However, for the reason of simplicity for the user it was decided by the 
web team that the sections be different pages and the number needs to 
remain consistent.


Even though it's depreciated and many pages at many websites aren't 
valid in the first place -- couldn't you still use the start attribute 
on a Strict page anyways?  Ducks and runs...*poof*


.Peter

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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Paul Noone]

Amazing site. Nice use of pictograms.

Categorising all that data must have been one hell of a job. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Somaya Langley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
>title or some descriptive metadata (similar to search results pages on 
>the site:
>http://www.musicaustralia.org)

If the  is just to place the record in a block of search results like
the example site then it might be worth considering  with  as the
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.

Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:
>>> 
>>>   
>  is deprecated, or is it?

It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Jon Tan]

Somaya Langley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
title

or some descriptive metadata
(similar to search results pages on the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)


If the  is just to place the record in a block of search results like 
the example site then it might be worth considering  with  as the 
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title 
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources 
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.


Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:


  

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics
of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe
the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions
of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file
size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or
category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[heretic]

> the first, for example:
> 
> 
> text info in here
> 
>
> What do people suggest?

I'd vote for:


  text info in here


I think the specs should not have deprecated the attribute - breaking
up huge lists into separate pages is entirely legit, which means the
numbering is an important part of the *content*.

The idea that all numbers should be added with CSS goes against the
idea of separating style and content, IMHO.

I'd recommend using , but I'm not clear about the future
interpretation of the attribute. I notice it's included in XHTML 2.0
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-list.html#adef_list_value),
but the spec doesn't say whether following items should continue the
numbering from the previous value. That would be *logical*, but
...well, specs aren't always logical :)

cheers,

h

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[matt andrews]

On 23/11/05, Geoff Pack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's 
> cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are 
> doing. You don't need the div around the text info though.
>
> Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide 
> them :)

Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Richard Czeiger]

There's also the idea that legal documents are often split into sections 
which continue numbering but are infact separate documents (addendums, 
etc...) .


At the moment, legal docs can't be semantically marked-up (at least in OZ) 
because:


1. any electonic version of a legal document MUST replicate the numbering 
and ordering EXACTLY.
2. current HTML/XHTML list mark-up/styling is not flexible enough to 
accomplish this.


The 'start' attribute and the 'value' attribute in s would be amazingly 
helpful for this.
Of course, the obvious solution is to teach bl**dy lawyers how to 
meaningfully put together a document but they can't even write in plain 
English let alone manage something as complex as nested lists!


;oP

On a more serious note, if someone can put together a MicroFormat that 
solves this problem, they'll go down in the Web Geek Hall of Fame or 
something. (if you do manage it though, please let me know!)


R 



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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Somaya Langley]

Perhaps you're right that an ordered list is not the right list to
choose, as it will be chunked and split across pages, however the
scenario is such that:

* a collection of images may contain thousands of items
* the collection is the highest level in the heirachy and so needs a
"finding aid" in some way to access items within the collection and to
describe relationships that may not be possible at lower levels (not
worth going into, needless to say that there are complex relationships
between items particularly in manuscript collections)
* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the title
or some descriptive metadata
(similar to search results pages on the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)
* list of items/images (including file sizes) would be too long that our
usability tests (and commonsense) shows that users are just unable to
scroll through thousands of items - hence chunking is necesssary
* while there is a fairly indepth persistent identification naming
scheme for image files, again it harks back to the relationships that
can't be expressed via the naming scheme and the need to build these
content list pages as a way for users to view large collections

perhaps I'll roll this page back to XHTML transitional so start can be
used, but am hesitant to begin by knowingly working with things that
aren't "the way forward" so to speak.

Thanks
Somaya


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:
>>> 
>>>   
>  is deprecated, or is it?

It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although 
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward 
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics
of an 
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe
the 
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over 
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an 
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions
of 
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different 
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file
size 
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I 
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then 
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or
category 
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is 
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Jon Tan]

Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:


  

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html) although 
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward 
compatibility.


One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an 
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.


I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the 
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over 
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an 
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of 
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different 
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size 
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I 
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then 
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for 
each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category 
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is 
achieved through that?


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Somaya Langley]

Thanks guys.  

Javascript is out, as our internal NLA standards try to avoid where
possible. Value attribute falls into the same category as the start
attribute...

Yes, theoretically you can do things with the counter in CSS, but to
actually do anything meaningful, CSS would really need to be a fully
programmable environment where relationships and variables were possible
and easy to handle.

ON another note...
re:

Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

>> 
>>   


  is deprecated, or is it?



There's a little bit of info here

http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2004-March/000255.htm
l


Thanks
Somaya

_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Chris Kennon]

Hi,

Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:



  



 is deprecated, or is it?

C
On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Geoff Pack wrote:




Paul Noone wrote:



Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the
following should also
work in a transiational doctype.


  
  ...




Not for using it, just for not quoting it properly ;)




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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Geoff Pack]

Paul Noone wrote:
> 
> Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the 
> following should also
> work in a transiational doctype.
> 
> 
>   
>   ...
>

Not for using it, just for not quoting it properly ;)




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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Paul Noone]

I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that a little javascript could
manipulate the numbering.

Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the following should also
work in a transiational doctype.


  
  ...

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Somaya Langley
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 4:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Hi All - 

I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the National
Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We need to start an
ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as the lists could be
quite long and so will be chunked into a set per page.

There are two solutions...
the first, for example: 


text info in here

...

or, the second:


number inserted in here from our digital content management
system text info in here  ...

While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated attribute.

What do people suggest?

Thanks
Somaya


_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au








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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Geoff Pack]

I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's 
cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are 
doing. You don't need the div around the text info though.

Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide 
them :)

Geoff Pack




Somaya Langley wrote:
> 
> Hi All - 
> 
> I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the
> National Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We
> need to start an ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as
> the lists could be quite long and so will be chunked into a set per
> page.
> 
> There are two solutions...
> the first, for example: 
> 
>  
> text info in here
> 
> ...
> 
> or, the second:
> 
> 
> number inserted in here from our digital content management
> system
> text info in here
> 
> ...
> 
> While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated
> attribute.
> 
> What do people suggest?
> 
> Thanks
> Somaya
> 
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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

> We need to start an ordered list on a page from a number
> other than 1, as the lists could be quite long and so will
> be chunked into a set per page.
...

What do people suggest?


Use a transitional DTD (whether XHTML or HTML) so you can use the 
start attribute while keeping the document valid.


Using divs to insert the numbers is IMO worse than using a (for 
transitional DTDs) valid, though deprecated attribute.


In theory, you could use counters in CSS, but as far as I know 
very few browsers actually support it at this point in time.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Kevin Yank]

Ah, if only browsers had seen fit to support markers as defined in CSS
2.0...

This is a sticky one. I have to admit I'd probably go for something like
this:


  40
  text info in here
  ...


You lose the semantics of an ordered list, but you get to be valid Strict
and you don't have to include the numbers in your list item contents. If
this isn't acceptable, I'd use your second proposed solution, but try to
choose better tags for your number and list item content (e.g., a  tag
for the number, and aragraphs for the content).

--

Kevin Yank
Technical Director

SitePoint Pty. Ltd.
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://www.sitepoint.com/
p: +61 3 9419-5200



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Somaya Langley
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 4:08 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1
> 
> Hi All - 
> 
> I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the
> National Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We
> need to start an ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as
> the lists could be quite long and so will be chunked into a set per
> page.
> 
> There are two solutions...
> the first, for example: 
> 
>  
> text info in here
> 
> ...
> 
> or, the second:
> 
> 
> number inserted in here from our digital content management
> system
> text info in here
> 
> ...
> 
> While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated
> attribute.
> 
> What do people suggest?
> 
> Thanks
> Somaya
> 
> 
> _
> Somaya Langley
> Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst
> 
> National Library of Australia
> Parkes Place
> Canberra ACT 2600
> 
> ph +61 2 6262 1366
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.musicaustralia.org
> http://www.nla.gov.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


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[WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Somaya Langley]

Hi All - 

I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the
National Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We
need to start an ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as
the lists could be quite long and so will be chunked into a set per
page.

There are two solutions...
the first, for example: 

 
text info in here

...

or, the second:


number inserted in here from our digital content management
system
text info in here

...

While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated
attribute.

What do people suggest?

Thanks
Somaya


_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au








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