Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Dionisis Karampinis]

Totally agree with you! Letting users know about the security flaws of IE6+7 is 
much more effective than the usual passive messages (especially on e-shops)!! 
Providing the content styled or not is a tough question, but i believe it all 
comes to the site's audience and purpose..for instance for a news website i 
would spend more time coding a stylesheet for mobile devices rather than IE6... 
unfortunatelly i still have to provide for IE7+8..but thats another story.. 
Whatever the case, trying to provide the information in the best way, just 
markup or styles that dont display some elements etc., i think should be the 
optimal web practise..

Regards, dio.

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:10, tee  wrote:

> 
> On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
>> On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed:
>> 
>>> I like the "let it fail gracefully" method. And, using something like
>>> , display a message for IE 6 only, "You are using IE 6.
>>> Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly."
> 
> For those who still think IE6 users shouldn't be treated less user experience 
> wise and that we shouldn't advocate abandoning the browser, I think something 
> needs to take into account, that IE6 and 7 have serious  security flaws, if a 
> site is static it probably is OK, but for sites that collect user data and CC 
> info than there is a good reason to advice and advocate IE6 users to stay 
> away from the browser. 
> 
> One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the usage of 
> IE6 was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6 months later, the 
> usage only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about Google got hacked and that 
> Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I suggested client placed a message 
> about the security vulnerability. The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, 
> tough I can't be 100% sure it's the message that helped bringing down the 
> percentage, but I think it helped greatly than a passive "You are using an 
> outdated browser. For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to 
> a modern web browser".
> 
> 
> tee
> 
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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Erickson, Kevin (DOE)]

I haven't used W2K since 2002 but doesn't W2K support other browsers ie
Chrome, FF etc?

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Chad Kelly
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 9:15 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

- Original Message - 
From: "Erickson, Kevin (DOE)" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better. And then throw in
the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they
even care if they can see a site in a "best viewed" fashion. I am
thinking they are not. ;-) j/k.
All's good.

I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000.
Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some 
applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is
about 
the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use Firefox, or
some 
other browser.
As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K.
I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so
with 
all these different versions of Windows floating around the place, and
with 
MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 2014 it is rather 
anoying.
All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a
year 
or so.



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David Hucklesby]

On 12/20/10 6:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote:

- Original Message - From: "Erickson, Kevin (DOE)"

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better.

[...]

This is where I came in. (2002)



All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a
year or so.



The Year of Living Dangerously? ;)

Cordially,
David
--


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[stuart]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:10:03 -0800, tee  wrote:




One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the
usage of IE6 was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6
months later, the usage only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about
Google got hacked and that Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I
suggested client placed a message about the security vulnerability.
The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, tough I can't be 100% 
sure
it's the message that helped bringing down the percentage, but I 
think

it helped greatly than a passive "You are using an outdated browser.
For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to a modern
web browser".


tee



Or you lost a lot of IE6 users.


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Joseph Taylor]

My 2 cents,

Your approach towards IE6 should be dictated by your site's audience. 
Watch your stats. If you have a lot of IE6 visitors, don't they deserve 
a decent page? If they're potential customers, wouldn't you want them to 
go through and make a transaction?


Think of the poor people using IE6. I've seen them come in the following 
flavors:


60% - Persons trapped in old Win2k network without the ability to 
install anything to their profile.
37% - Persons with an old computer with no knowledge of any alternative 
~ /"I surf the web by clicking the E!"/
3% - Hermits who refuse to upgrade as they still love their IE6's simple 
interface. I'm not kidding.


I still have Windows 2000 servers running web apps I made 10 years. Many 
swear it was Microsoft's last good OS!


At any rate, at least 2 out of the three groups above are potential 
customers. The stats for my own site show that 80% of my new customers 
are using IE, with a good 30% of that group still using IE6. Yeah, it 
kind of sucks, but web design is all about dealing with limitations, 
isn't it?


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/20/10 9:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote:
- Original Message - From: "Erickson, Kevin (DOE)" 


To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better. And then throw in
the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they
even care if they can see a site in a "best viewed" fashion. I am
thinking they are not. ;-) j/k.
All's good.

I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000.
Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some 
applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is 
about the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use 
Firefox, or some other browser.

As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K.
I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so 
with all these different versions of Windows floating around the 
place, and with MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 
2014 it is rather anoying.
All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a 
year or so.




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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Chad Kelly]

- Original Message - 
From: "Erickson, Kevin (DOE)" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better. And then throw in
the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they
even care if they can see a site in a "best viewed" fashion. I am
thinking they are not. ;-) j/k.
All's good.

I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000.
Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some 
applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is about 
the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use Firefox, or some 
other browser.

As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K.
I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so with 
all these different versions of Windows floating around the place, and with 
MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 2014 it is rather 
anoying.
All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a year 
or so.




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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[G.Sørtun]

On 20.12.2010 21:00, David McKinnon wrote:

Sorry Georg,
I should have read your article before (re)using that joke!

I still not sure I'd spend extra effort to effectively penalise IE6 users.
IE6 is not Netscape 4, its CSS support is not that bad.

...

I just realised I'm sticking up for IE6!
Must be the payback for all the nasty things I've said about it :)

David


:-)

Years ago someone "threatened" to start a "protect IE6 from Georg" 
union. Are you a member..? :-D


I'm only presenting my favored solution for splitting IE6 away from the 
rest so it can be served something it can handle. What others want to do 
with IE6 once it is separated, is totally up to them.


I'm usually quite nice to IE6 users, as can be seen on other pages on my 
site. All I do is to display a message to IE6 users, urging them to 
upgrade from their obsolete browser.
Some actually accuse me of being "too nice to IE6" now and then, so I 
receive flak from both sides. No big deal.


Fixing IE6' bugs so it renders "close enough for comfort" isn't much of 
a deal either, although it may be necessary to roll out some of the big 
artillery to get past its most severe bugs and weaknesses in certain 
cases. Generally: I see the effort I put into getting IE6 in line, after 
all the other browsers are served, as good coding practice and something 
to do when I get bored.


regards

Georg


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[tee]

 
On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

> On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed:
> 
>> I like the "let it fail gracefully" method. And, using something like
>> , display a message for IE 6 only, "You are using IE 6.
>> Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly."

For those who still think IE6 users shouldn't be treated less user experience 
wise and that we shouldn't advocate abandoning the browser, I think something 
needs to take into account, that IE6 and 7 have serious  security flaws, if a 
site is static it probably is OK, but for sites that collect user data and CC 
info than there is a good reason to advice and advocate IE6 users to stay away 
from the browser. 

One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the usage of IE6 
was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6 months later, the usage 
only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about Google got hacked and that 
Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I suggested client placed a message 
about the security vulnerability. The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, 
tough I can't be 100% sure it's the message that helped bringing down the 
percentage, but I think it helped greatly than a passive "You are using an 
outdated browser. For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to a 
modern web browser".


tee

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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Erickson, Kevin (DOE)]

Yes. Thank you Felix! "best viewed" works much better. And then throw in
the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they
even care if they can see a site in a "best viewed" fashion. I am
thinking they are not. ;-) j/k. 
All's good.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Felix Miata
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed:

> I like the "let it fail gracefully" method. And, using something like
> , display a message for IE 6 only, "You are using IE 6.
> Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly."

"Correctly"? Do all compliant browsers do correctly? Better not "best
viewed" 
or "as intended" or 



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Felix Miata]

On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed:


I like the "let it fail gracefully" method. And, using something like
, display a message for IE 6 only, "You are using IE 6.
Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly."


"Correctly"? Do all compliant browsers do correctly? Better not "best viewed" 
or "as intended" or 

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David McKinnon]

Sorry Georg,
I should have read your article before (re)using that joke!

I still not sure I'd spend extra effort to effectively penalise IE6 users.
IE6 is not Netscape 4, its CSS support is not that bad.

...

I just realised I'm sticking up for IE6!
Must be the payback for all the nasty things I've said about it :)

David
 

On 20/12/2010, at 8:13 AM, David McKinnon wrote:

> Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse 
> than it needs to be.
> Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)
> 
> David
> 
> On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests.
>> 
>> I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced 
>> a few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. 
>> Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot 
>> handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are 
>> using @import but are placed inside a main style sheet.
>> 
>> tee
>> 
>> On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote:
>> 
>>> 
 I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
 has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due 
 to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to 
 see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
 
 Can this be done?
>>> 
>>> Of course... :-)
>>> 
>>> How to & demo here:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
>>> "some".
>>> 
>>> regards
>>>  Georg
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Joseph Taylor]

IE6 would not load the stylesheet if set up the line of HTML like this:



Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/20/10 1:28 PM, Ty Hatch wrote:

http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, tee > wrote:


I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as
the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a
broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser,
rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style
sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee

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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Ty Hatch]

http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, tee  wrote:

> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage
> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to
> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see
> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>
> Can this be done?
>
> Thanks!
>
> tee
>
> ***
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>


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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Erickson, Kevin (DOE)]

I like the "let it fail gracefully" method. And, using something like
, display a message for IE 6 only, "You are using IE 6.
Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly."

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the
usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken
page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would
like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.


Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee

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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[tee]

Paul, 

thank you very much! Very neat! 

Had a deja vu moment when I saw the title, I might had stumbled on that article 
before.

If I were to find the article in 2009 it probably wasn't worth the 
consideration due to IE6 usage at that time, but it's prime time to start using 
this technique now :)

The Conditional Comment breaks the CSS merging script though.

tee
On Dec 19, 2010, at 6:45 PM, Paul Irish wrote:

> tee, 
> 
> you want this: 
> http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/
> 
> it greatly simplifies the layout for IE6.. to just be the straight-up 
> content.. no layout tricks.
> plus decent typography. :)
> 
> 
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Paul Irish]

tee,

you want this:
http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/

it greatly simplifies the layout for IE6.. to just be the straight-up
content.. no layout tricks.
plus decent typography. :)



On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:59 PM, "G.Sørtun"  wrote:

> On 19.12.2010 22:13, David McKinnon wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince
>> worse than it needs to be.
>> Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)
>>
>> David
>>
>
> As it says in my article: "I've restricted disgraceful degradation to IE6
> and older." And, the effort is minimal :-)
>
> Not sure if limited styles necessarily make the IE6 experience worse than
> weak and/or failing styles and corrective measures. As usual that depends on
> the designer/coder.
>
>
> regards
>
>Georg
>
>
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[G.Sørtun]

On 19.12.2010 22:13, David McKinnon wrote:

Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse 
than it needs to be.
Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)

David


As it says in my article: "I've restricted disgraceful degradation to 
IE6 and older." And, the effort is minimal :-)


Not sure if limited styles necessarily make the IE6 experience worse 
than weak and/or failing styles and corrective measures. As usual that 
depends on the designer/coder.


regards

Georg


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David McKinnon]

Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse 
than it needs to be.
Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;)

David

On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee  wrote:

> Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests.
> 
> I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a 
> few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. 
> Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot 
> handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using 
> @import but are placed inside a main style sheet.
> 
> tee
> 
> On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
>>> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
>>> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>>> 
>>> Can this be done?
>> 
>> Of course... :-)
>> 
>> How to & demo here:
>> 
>> 
>> It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
>> "some".
>> 
>> regards
>>   Georg
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[tee]

Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests.

I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a 
few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. 
Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot handle 
@import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using @import 
but are placed inside a main style sheet.

tee

On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote:

> 
>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
>> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
>> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>> 
>> Can this be done?
> 
> Of course... :-)
> 
> How to & demo here:
> 
> 
> It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
> "some".
> 
> regards
>Georg



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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Thierry Koblentz]

> >>  The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax
> people off of IE6.
> 
> > I don't think that's our job...
> 
> Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You
> enjoy
> the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity
> causes?

Most people who run IE6 don't have a choice. Feel free to ignore them, but
don't believe that you can make them switch browsers. 
I guess the next step is to design for 1400px layouts so we can put more
above the fold. Then we'll tell people to buy new monitors :)

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz






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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Ben Buchanan]

On 18 December 2010 22:20, tee  wrote:

> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage
> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to
> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see
> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>
> Can this be done?
>


Rather than a completely unstyled page I use a combination of
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200511/valid_downlevelrevealed_conditional_comments/and
http://code.google.com/p/universal-ie6-css/ (alternatively you could write a
basic stylesheet, setting your usual typefaces and colours but leaving
layout to the default - time box it to something like ten minutes' effort).


link to normal css

 

That way it doesn't cost anything in good browsers; I'm not spending time on
IE6; but anyone stuck on IE6 (eg in a corporate environment) does get
something styled (a lot of people equate unstyled with broken).

Because I favour actively pushing IE6 out I do include a little message just
for IE6, respectfully suggesting the user should upgrade or ask their IT
people if an upgrade would be possible.

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Eric Taylor]

Agreed. Our job is to provide the best web experience the user can have. To do 
this, the user will optimally have the most up-to-date browser, as to 
experience the latest web technology available.

Eric Taylor
< Elements Aside />
http://www.elementsaside.com

On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:49 PM, Felix Miata  wrote:

> On 2010/12/18 20:33 (GMT-0800) Thierry Koblentz composed:
> 
>>> The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off 
>>> of IE6.
> 
>> I don't think that's our job...
> 
> Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You enjoy 
> the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity causes?
> -- 
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
> 
> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
> 
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Felix Miata]

On 2010/12/18 20:33 (GMT-0800) Thierry Koblentz composed:


 The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of 
IE6.



I don't think that's our job...


Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You enjoy 
the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity causes?

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Eric Taylor]

Also, I forgot to mention - If you are looking to get people to move to a newer 
browser, simple implement a small banner, maybe static header or footer, that 
recommends some newer browsers.

This can be added into your override CSS file for the outdated browser(s).

Eric Taylor
< Elements Aside />
http://www.elementsaside.com

On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:16 PM, James Ducker  wrote:

> 
> Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy
> effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6
> should get layout fixes and miss on properties like "border-radius",
> "opacity", etc.
> So no need for a specific styles sheet imo.
> 
> 
> The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off 
> of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's 
> rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts 
> and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box 
> that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages.
> 
> - James
>  
> -- 
> James Ducker
> Web Developer
> http://www.studioj.net.au
> 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Eric Taylor]

Good points James. When I think about cross-browser compatibility, I try to 
keep the following points in mind:

1 - Websites don't have to look the same in each browser. This doesn't mean 
that you can ignore how pages render in browsers you don't care about; it means 
that if Chrome displays rounded corners, and IE6 does not, this is still 
acceptable, so long as it doesn't look wrong or broken to someone using IE6.

2 - To piggyback off 1, make the experience usable and consistent in each 
browser. This is the short and sweet rule I try to live by when making CSS 
decisions.

3 - There is no such thing as a compliant browser. Some browsers support 
functionality that we are looking to begin using, but so long as browsers are 
not designing to a universal standard, expect there to be rendering differences 
and variety of support.

So I guess what I'm trying to communicate is that you should be designing for 
the latest browsers, then implement override stylesheets for older browsers 
such as IE6/7. So long as your presentation looks finished, consistent, and 
usable in each browser individually, you're good to go. Don't let those old 
browsers affect your core stylesheet(s).

Eric Taylor
< Elements Aside />
http://www.elementsaside.com

On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:16 PM, James Ducker  wrote:

> 
> Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy
> effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6
> should get layout fixes and miss on properties like "border-radius",
> "opacity", etc.
> So no need for a specific styles sheet imo.
> 
> 
> The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off 
> of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's 
> rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts 
> and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box 
> that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages.
> 
> - James
>  
> -- 
> James Ducker
> Web Developer
> http://www.studioj.net.au
> 
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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Thierry Koblentz]

> The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off 
> of IE6. 

I don't think that's our job...


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz


 





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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Andrew Stewart]

Is there a js file somewhere that would allow me to just insert the following 
into my pages:


http://cdn.domain.com/ie6.js";> 


It would then pop up a warning to the user (but only once per session) that 
their browser was out of date, and give them links to more modern browsers - 
like what Google does, but in a way that would allow me to just insert that 
code and not have to worry about it. Also I think there would be value in 
having the same warning shown to users across multiple sites - might help to 
ram the message home a bit stronger :)

Like the OP I too want to have something other than just a broken page, but 
considering the value that IE 6 users bring to my site I am not prepared to 
spend more than a few minutes to cater for them.

Andy

On 19 Dec 2010, at 12:59, Grant Bailey wrote:

> Big companies such as Google and Youtube have had to deal with the IE6 
> problem on a large scale. Their pages display a warning message to advise IE6 
> users that the page may not display correctly, and suggest upgrading to a 
> more recent browser.
> 
> Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age of 
> IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in the 
> attitude of other developers.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Grant Bailey
> 
> On 19/12/2010 2:03 AM, Anthony Gr. wrote:
>> Sorry :)
>> 
>> ...
>> of course.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Anton.
>> 
>> 
>> 2010/12/18 Anthony Gr.:
>>> Hi. I think, this example will help you:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Anton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2010/12/18 tee:
 I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
 has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due 
 to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to 
 see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
 
 Can this be done?
 
 Thanks!
 
 tee
 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[James Ducker]

>
>
> Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy
> effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6
> should get layout fixes and miss on properties like "border-radius",
> "opacity", etc.
> So no need for a specific styles sheet imo.
>
>
The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off
of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's
rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts
and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box
that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages.

- James

-- 
James Ducker
Web Developer
http://www.studioj.net.au


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RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Thierry Koblentz]

> Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the
> age
> of IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in
> the attitude of other developers.

Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy
effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6
should get layout fixes and miss on properties like "border-radius",
"opacity", etc.
So no need for a specific styles sheet imo.

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz







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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Grant Bailey]

Big companies such as Google and Youtube have had to deal with the IE6 
problem on a large scale. Their pages display a warning message to 
advise IE6 users that the page may not display correctly, and suggest 
upgrading to a more recent browser.


Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age 
of IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in 
the attitude of other developers.


Kind regards,

Grant Bailey

On 19/12/2010 2:03 AM, Anthony Gr. wrote:

Sorry :)

...
of course.

Best,
Anton.


2010/12/18 Anthony Gr.:

Hi. I think, this example will help you:






Best,
Anton


2010/12/18 tee:

I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has 
fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no 
special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an 
un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee

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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Anthony Gr.]

Sorry :)

...
of course.

Best,
Anton.


2010/12/18 Anthony Gr. :
> Hi. I think, this example will help you:
>
> 
> 
> 
>
>
> Best,
> Anton
>
>
> 2010/12/18 tee :
>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
>> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
>> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>>
>> Can this be done?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> tee
>>
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Anthony Gr.]

Hi. I think, this example will help you:






Best,
Anton


2010/12/18 tee :
> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>
> Can this be done?
>
> Thanks!
>
> tee
>
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[G.Sørtun]

I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has 
fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no 
special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an 
un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?


Of course... :-)

How to & demo here:


It is up to you how "unstyled" IE6 shall present a page. I would give it 
"some".


regards
Georg


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:20 AM, tee  wrote:
> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.
>
> Can this be done?

Yes. For example, you could:

(1) Use conditional comments to exclude the IE6 (or earlier) engine:

http://reference.sitepoint.com/css/conditionalcomments

or (2) Use the HTTP User-Agent header to serve different markup to IE6.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537503(v=vs.85).aspx

User-Agent headers are sometimes spoofed.

On the other hand, they provide a more general mechanism that can be
used to exclude styles/script from other old user agents (e.g. old
Mozilla versions).

Note that when doing sniffing of this sort, it is better to
differentiate the experience for known-bad browsers and assume all
other browsers are fully capable, so that users of capable minority
browsers are not locked out or forced to spoof. In other words: use a
blacklist not a whitelist.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[tee]

Don't have any base, I  just think psychologically an un-styled page is better 
received than a broken page, and it makes the page loads faster too without 
nice transparent background images. 

I wouldn't called these two pages  failed gracefully. They are semi-broken and 
PNG transparent images are making them worse.

http://picasaweb.google.com/weblist99/Ie6

My goal is never to have to bother with IE6 at all, and that means not a single 
tiny treatment for this browser, the cleaner way seems to be no style sheet is 
served for the browser.

tee
On Dec 18, 2010, at 3:53 AM, Russ Weakley wrote:

> Why go that far? Why not let this browser see the CSS and fail gracefully - 
> or semi-gracefully as needed (as long as the content and navigation are 
> accessible so that the site can be navigated and read).
> 
> 
> On 18/12/2010, at 10:20 PM, tee wrote:
> 
>> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
>> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
>> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
>> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. 
>> 
>> Can this be done?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> tee



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[David Laakso]

On 12/18/10 6:20 AM, tee wrote:

I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has 
fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no 
special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an 
un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee






A somewhat less dramatic alternative is to feed IE/6.0 styles in much 
the same manner as one might handle mobile. Somewhat crude at the 
moment, but fwiw see my signature link in IE/6.

Best,
~d

--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

[Russ Weakley]

Why go that far? Why not let this browser see the CSS and fail gracefully - or 
semi-gracefully as needed (as long as the content and navigation are accessible 
so that the site can be navigated and read).


On 18/12/2010, at 10:20 PM, tee wrote:

> I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage 
> has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to 
> no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see 
> an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. 
> 
> Can this be done?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> tee



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