Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Hi Edgar :-) Nice to hear from you! I agree with you- but/and: Sometimes (not always of course) a belief in "god" can actually push a person further (like wind in a sail) on the path in unusual and surprising ways ;-) Much depends on the person, of course. Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > DP, > > There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is > not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of > is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with > reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God > does not know Zen. > > Edgar > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Correct! Edgar On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: > Here comes another viewpoint from our other moderator. Let me expand what > Edgar says: the immense intelligense in the universe is the global spirit, or > Tao. > > Anthony > > --- On Thu, 16/9/10, Edgar Owen wrote: > > From: Edgar Owen > Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, 16 September, 2010, 6:17 PM > > > DP, > > There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is > not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of > is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with > reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God > does not know Zen. > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: > >> >> I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there >> seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others >> and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing >> in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and >> Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to >> enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the >> Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) >> can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or >> is that un-Zen? >> > > >
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Hi Anthony, Oh.. Good to know. Actually, I was merely passing on what I heard Bob Thurman say.. ;) Exactly my point. He is a scholar--as are many others. Yet clearly, there is not a definitive opinion. Thanks.. k :) --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Anthony Wu wrote: From: Anthony Wu Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 5:21 PM Kristy, It is not true that Buddhists, much less zenists, 'believe in' God or Gods. Many of them believe that 'gods' exist, but don't rule. Anthony --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Kristy McClain wrote: From: Kristy McClain Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17 September, 2010, 2:23 AM *bows* to Edgar / all, I've been away for a coupla days, and am 133 messages behind, so my brief comments on this may be out of place, but here is my thought as I read this... Perhaps it doesn't matter whether there is, or isn't a "God", or some super-natural "Force". In the end, it is the insistent debate humans continue to wage. This belief and psychology is what, I think, will ultimately bring about the final destruction of life on this earth. Probably doesn't matter what my karma is, or what deeds I have done, because the world leaders will ultimately direct the actions as a result of their own beliefs and theology , (or lack of same), to thus cause the final showdown predicted in the end chapter of sacred texts of varying religions. "We", (hunan), bring about our own unhappiness and destruction, beause, in my view, there seems to be a desperate need to be right, to find security in a heavenly parent to protect us, and find comfort in our need for certainty . Its a paradox. The ultimate oxymoron to me. What can be done about humanity planning their own destruction? What is so wrong about agreeing to disagree. Even your statement here, Edgar, is completely disavowed this week by Robert Thurman, in his radio show, as he indeed insists that there has always been a belief in several Gods by Buddhists, including Z/zen-ists. He goes on to say that anyone who states otherwise is a distortion of the actual history. *sigh* I have always been a pretty critical person as the daughter of a very critical parent. But in my old age, I'm learning that there is no such thing as the truth or even a fact. Its simply one's perception of it. Kristy --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 4:17 AM DP, There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know Zen. Edgar On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Kristy, It is not true that Buddhists, much less zenists, 'believe in' God or Gods. Many of them believe that 'gods' exist, but don't rule. Anthony --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Kristy McClain wrote: From: Kristy McClain Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17 September, 2010, 2:23 AM *bows* to Edgar / all, I've been away for a coupla days, and am 133 messages behind, so my brief comments on this may be out of place, but here is my thought as I read this... Perhaps it doesn't matter whether there is, or isn't a "God", or some super-natural "Force". In the end, it is the insistent debate humans continue to wage. This belief and psychology is what, I think, will ultimately bring about the final destruction of life on this earth. Probably doesn't matter what my karma is, or what deeds I have done, because the world leaders will ultimately direct the actions as a result of their own beliefs and theology , (or lack of same), to thus cause the final showdown predicted in the end chapter of sacred texts of varying religions. "We", (hunan), bring about our own unhappiness and destruction, beause, in my view, there seems to be a desperate need to be right, to find security in a heavenly parent to protect us, and find comfort in our need for certainty . Its a paradox. The ultimate oxymoron to me. What can be done about humanity planning their own destruction? What is so wrong about agreeing to disagree. Even your statement here, Edgar, is completely disavowed this week by Robert Thurman, in his radio show, as he indeed insists that there has always been a belief in several Gods by Buddhists, including Z/zen-ists. He goes on to say that anyone who states otherwise is a distortion of the actual history. *sigh* I have always been a pretty critical person as the daughter of a very critical parent. But in my old age, I'm learning that there is no such thing as the truth or even a fact. Its simply one's perception of it. Kristy --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 4:17 AM DP, There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know Zen. Edgar On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Here comes another viewpoint from our other moderator. Let me expand what Edgar says: the immense intelligense in the universe is the global spirit, or Tao. Anthony --- On Thu, 16/9/10, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 16 September, 2010, 6:17 PM DP, There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know Zen. Edgar On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
DP, Your question is more profound than you think. Is there an intelligence more powerful than man? Bill would ask you not to give a shit to that question. That does not stop us from wondering. Is it right in a zen way to believe in God? Bill would say since whether God exists is irrelevant, it does not make sense to believe or not in God. Anthony --- On Thu, 16/9/10, DP wrote: From: DP Subject: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 16 September, 2010, 11:16 AM I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
*bows* to Edgar / all, I've been away for a coupla days, and am 133 messages behind, so my brief comments on this may be out of place, but here is my thought as I read this... Perhaps it doesn't matter whether there is, or isn't a "God", or some super-natural "Force". In the end, it is the insistent debate humans continue to wage. This belief and psychology is what, I think, will ultimately bring about the final destruction of life on this earth. Probably doesn't matter what my karma is, or what deeds I have done, because the world leaders will ultimately direct the actions as a result of their own beliefs and theology , (or lack of same), to thus cause the final showdown predicted in the end chapter of sacred texts of varying religions. "We", (hunan), bring about our own unhappiness and destruction, beause, in my view, there seems to be a desperate need to be right, to find security in a heavenly parent to protect us, and find comfort in our need for certainty . Its a paradox. The ultimate oxymoron to me. What can be done about humanity planning their own destruction? What is so wrong about agreeing to disagree. Even your statement here, Edgar, is completely disavowed this week by Robert Thurman, in his radio show, as he indeed insists that there has always been a belief in several Gods by Buddhists, including Z/zen-ists. He goes on to say that anyone who states otherwise is a distortion of the actual history. *sigh* I have always been a pretty critical person as the daughter of a very critical parent. But in my old age, I'm learning that there is no such thing as the truth or even a fact. Its simply one's perception of it. Kristy --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 4:17 AM DP, There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know Zen. Edgar On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Train carries people Typing email on a phone Is this the stop? Send Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 16, 2010, at 7:14, "ED" wrote: > > > >> Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one > is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. > > Hi All, > > Chris Austen-Lane wrote: "Zen can be understood and practiced solely as > an activity in which one is trained, not as a metaphysical belief > system." > > "Zen is a worldview, a psychology and a restructuring of the brain, with > which one experiences one's own mind and the external world with > equanimity, intelligence, confidence and compassion." > > Of course the statement immediately above is 'wrong'. > > Please give us your best shot at a definition of zen or Zen. > > Thanks, ED > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: >> >> And here I was going to say that Zen has a tradition of having people > figure stuff out for themselves. People have always worshipped in groups > and probably always will. I attend a Christian church and practice > zazen. I don't run into trouble in either camp. I will say that as I > become less interested in my own thoughts, I find it increasingly > implausible that God, however experienced or known, would care about my > thoughts either. My church is pretty liberal and is based on a tradition > of communal worship more individual professions of faith, so we probably > have people with all sorts of divergent beliefs, but have never made our > human thoughts the focus (except for typical petty squabbles about what > songs to sing and when to stand and when to kneel etc.). >> >> Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one > is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. >> >> I have to say that >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
> Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. Hi All, Chris Austen-Lane wrote: "Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system." "Zen is a worldview, a psychology and a restructuring of the brain, with which one experiences one's own mind and the external world with equanimity, intelligence, confidence and compassion." Of course the statement immediately above is 'wrong'. Please give us your best shot at a definition of zen or Zen. Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > And here I was going to say that Zen has a tradition of having people figure stuff out for themselves. People have always worshipped in groups and probably always will. I attend a Christian church and practice zazen. I don't run into trouble in either camp. I will say that as I become less interested in my own thoughts, I find it increasingly implausible that God, however experienced or known, would care about my thoughts either. My church is pretty liberal and is based on a tradition of communal worship more individual professions of faith, so we probably have people with all sorts of divergent beliefs, but have never made our human thoughts the focus (except for typical petty squabbles about what songs to sing and when to stand and when to kneel etc.). > > Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. > > I have to say that > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Whoops! I sent that too soon. I was going to say that regular seems to improve my worship experience - I can just stand, just kneel, just sing, just look around at my fellow congregsnts and share communion without so much internal chatter and commentary. I even find myself finding value in sermons that would have been way too coservative for me previously. Being aware of my tendency to judge each statement has allowed that judging to relax a bit and instead notice what is interesting in people's speech. A more relaxed and whole-hearted experience. On the other hand, why are you asking? If you are starting out with Zen, starting out with a new Church seems a bit much. And if you are in some religious community, just see how the shifts in your perspective alter the experience of that community. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:32, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > And here I was going to say that Zen has a tradition of having people figure > stuff out for themselves. People have always worshipped in groups and > probably always will. I attend a Christian church and practice zazen. I don't > run into trouble in either camp. I will say that as I become less interested > in my own thoughts, I find it increasingly implausible that God, however > experienced or known, would care about my thoughts either. My church is > pretty liberal and is based on a tradition of communal worship more > individual professions of faith, so we probably have people with all sorts of > divergent beliefs, but have never made our human thoughts the focus (except > for typical petty squabbles about what songs to sing and when to stand and > when to kneel etc.). > > Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one is > trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. > > I have to say that > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 16, 2010, at 3:17, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> >> >> DP, >> >> There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is >> not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of >> is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with >> reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God >> does not know Zen. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: >> >>> I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there >>> seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others >>> and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing >>> in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism >>> and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance >>> to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the >>> Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) >>> can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? >>> Or is that un-Zen? >>> >> >> >> >>
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
And here I was going to say that Zen has a tradition of having people figure stuff out for themselves. People have always worshipped in groups and probably always will. I attend a Christian church and practice zazen. I don't run into trouble in either camp. I will say that as I become less interested in my own thoughts, I find it increasingly implausible that God, however experienced or known, would care about my thoughts either. My church is pretty liberal and is based on a tradition of communal worship more individual professions of faith, so we probably have people with all sorts of divergent beliefs, but have never made our human thoughts the focus (except for typical petty squabbles about what songs to sing and when to stand and when to kneel etc.). Zen can be understood and practiced solely as an activity in which one is trained, not as a metaphysical belief system. I have to say that Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 16, 2010, at 3:17, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > DP, > > There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is > not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of > is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with > reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God > does not know Zen. > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: > >> I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there >> seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others >> and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing >> in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and >> Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to >> enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the >> Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) >> can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or >> is that un-Zen? >> > > > >
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
DP, There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know Zen. Edgar On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote: > I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems > to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and > showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in > God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen > do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to > enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the > Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) > can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or > is that un-Zen? > >
Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
Hi DP; You may enjoy to see and hear this video. The mantra is; NAMO AVALOKITESVARA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddQD3s92cYc Mayka --- On Thu, 16/9/10, DP wrote: From: DP Subject: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 16 September, 2010, 4:16 I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen?
[Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is that un-Zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
