Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the free market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. John W. Redelfs wrote: Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the Northern Alliance was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were transported to the USA. Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter. Of course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and proved himself to be a mere opportunist. Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains intact after a Bush, Jr. victory. I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders. At least I hope so. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is while a conditional term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well? John W. Redelfs wrote: Jim Cobabe favored us with: Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 8. But I also believe DC 134:5 which reads: We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own hands. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Jim Cobabe wrote: I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear technological knowhow. What a refreshing change for the world to buy their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians, or the PRC. Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper. ;- This really isn't new, actually. There are a lot of out-of-work Russian and Ukrainian scientists around (I've met some of them even here in Edmonton at high-tech firms I've visited). And of course, our CANDU (and now the more compact Maple reactor being sold by a former division of AECL, and a sister company to the medical products division, where I lived -- see http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/021029/maple_1_reactor_1.html for the Maple, and http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/cnf_sectionA.htm#c for CANDU. A Three-Mile Island or Chernobyl-type accident is virtually impossible with either reactor. What we won't sell are the research reactors such as are installed in Chalk River ON (near where the uranium for the 2 US bombs dropped on Japan was mined), and Whiteshell MN (NE of Winnipeg). Both of these reactors have very high neutron flux -- enough to give a 1.5 cm Cobalt-60 source an energy level approaching smaller linear accelerators. [Yeah, yeah, I know you were yanking my chain, but give me a chance for boosterism...] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02: The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. [emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to accelerate the review, Reeker said. In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to assess the risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin reviewing that document, full copies of the report have been made available to those members of the Council that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday, the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against the inadvertent release of information. And from the press corps QA session: Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible. Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with expertise in this matter happen to be the other permanent members of the Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place. Gary Smith wrote: Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public news, I'm not making it up. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston
Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God
Well, I've been working on it tonight/this morning because I have insomnia (how's that for a spiritual motivator?) I got about halfway through and found a couple of embarrassing typos along with the rest of the formatting (don't use Netscape Composer on Word docs, at least, not Netscape 4.72). Stacy Smith wrote: I'd love to see that one when you get it good and cleaned up. Stacy. At 06:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov, where I attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The first was printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the short version. The medium version is on my website at http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html I've promised FAIR a long version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long version, after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and turns the doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to attack it) Jon Spencer wrote: I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God. I added it to our website, with the following description (actually, only the first two paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!). It is a very good book, well worth the reading. Jon How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God brings profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of orthodox Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how these doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from biblical teaching. The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical context, show that during the second century theological concepts taught in Platonism were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution. Emperor Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to death because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the day. The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms. Their efforts brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the Trinity. After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian theology today, called classical theism, to biblical teachings. The book identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes of God taught in classical theism. Modern theologians are challenged on numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological, historic and scientific analysis. This book constitutes a major challenge to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
At 14:54 12/16/2002 -0700, Gib Egroeg wrote: George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter. But to tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest. Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good o'cousin Jim. Well, some of us are happy to have you aboard Till the benevolent Elmer L. Fairbank N2OKConsultant/Advisor Molecular Biology GeneticsCornell University G63 Biotech Bldg607-255-2147 check out my web page: http://elf.mbg.cornell.edu // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Jim and I share a grandfather. His dad, Bill is brother to my dad, George. We are currently in the habit of getting together once a year with our Cobabe Cousins whom we correspond with on a CobabeCousins email list owned by Jim. We have a lot of cousins and if anyone should ever run into a Cobabe they will, for sure be a cousin, as there are no others around. We all look alike so there will be little doubt as to the relationship, that is, of course, if you know us off list. There is a family of CoBabe (including a prominent paleontologist who named a dinosaur CoBabe something or other) not directly related and some Kobabe in Canada not directly related, but both go back to the same region in Germany so must hook up somewhere. There is in Ogden a family of Cobabe, but they had only daughters so the name will not continue there. He, Alvin, is a first cousin, once removed, from Jim and me. The Cobabes settled in Ogden and Morgan county in the 1850's as Mormon immigrants. Our grandfather moved to Los Angeles in the 1930's and the family now identifies with the South Bay area (the Beach Cities) of Los Angeles as home That likely told you more than you really wanted to know. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy George Cobabe favored us with: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to keep it to a minimum. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. So tell us how you are related to Jim. Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe is a friend of mine. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. We are glad to have you among us. I hope we live up to your lofty expectations. If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
I was trying to suggest that the doctrine of trinity, with its idea of a universal constant referred to as God and manifest as the three personages, is based on a true LDS doctrine of a manifestation of a constant standard of what is a God in infinite forms of exalted Gods. Not that the defective doctrine is true, but that it comes from a variation on the truth. The problem is that the doctrine of the trinity is so convoluted we cannot if discuss it without being subject to the same requirements of confusion and misunderstanding. Not much simpler is it? George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin George Cobabe favored us with: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? Would it be possible for you to rephrase this more simply? I am afraid it is above my reading level, and I don't understand. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 03:14 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote: I was zipping along a Missouri road back in 1975 and fell off my motorcycle. Luckily, my fall was broken by my face on the pavement or I could've hurt myself. So it's not motorcycles which are dangerous. It's roads. Or faces. Even Till has taken a tumble once, from a Norton. There was this rock in the road which he smuck amidships at 60. The rest is subject to some pretty vivid imagining. HE thinks rocks are dangerous (not to mention young men) Till the twisted // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
At 21:16 12/16/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: I've only been here a couple years and they haven't thrown me out yet. grin Notice carefully the yet 8)) Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
I was trying not to let it happen, but I think you topped everyone and surely had the last word on this. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:47 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy -George- Could that be right, wright. or wrong? The W should be capitalized. Write Wright right. (But don't fixate on it to the point that you feel compelled to do so, or you'll find yourself performing the Write 'Wright' right rite.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the size of bullets (so as to end the argument)? George - Original Message - From: Rick Mathis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, Paul wrote: Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. So, George, what's your favourite calibre? Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I get three A's. We have been given intellectual gifts to employ. The word employ here is very important, for it means that we must work at figuring things out, at overcoming our natural man instincts. We may be of the fold, but we are not sheep. In determining the ability of a country's government to hold[ing] sacred the freedom of conscience, I use the measure of whether or not there are missionaries in that country. If there are not, then it is clear that, notwithstanding some special agreement between the Church and the government such as in Israel, that government is subject to serious review by its populace. Since I just went on an exchange with our missionaries, and since we just had more than 100 missionaries visit the store while on their semi-annual trip to the temple, I think that the US is OK for at least another year or two. Jon - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:02 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Jim Cobabe favored us with: Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 8. But I also believe DC 134:5 which reads: We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own hands. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Jim the Babe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have nukes. --- There were some misleading news reports on this, I think. In the headlines last Friday. Those rotten news guys, they're always trying to increase John's anxiety. :-) It is a worldwide conspiracy, of which I must now confess, both the Babes are a part of. [SNIP] I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear technological knowhow. What a refreshing change for the world to buy their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians, or the PRC. Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper. ;- They are just moving the old stuff from Chernobyl to Iran. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there (other than Bush, I mean :-). If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his ally. I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the way, is pretty high up on my list. And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward). I honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the free market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....
Shortly after we moved into our new home a year and a half ago, Dish Network had a deal where you paid $199 for the dish and receiver, and got basic 100 channel programming for $19/month for a year. This was a good deal, and we took them up on it. This last summer, the price per month went up. There is one good reason we have kept it. That is the BYU channel. We watched confrence, the First Presidency's Christmas address, and more on it. Great great stuff! Scott On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:42:15 -0900, John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Gary Smith favored us with: People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV. In that case, we get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference, BYU education week, etc. It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Jon Spencer wrote: --- I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) --- Sounds like a Simpsons episode. Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian counterpart-apparent. :-0 --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an agnostic. This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway: Marc, what is God's view of science and religion? Does He separate the two? Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate? Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a straight answer from you on them. If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, would you mind refreshing my memory? The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one. There is absolutely no dividing line with this kind of truth over here and that kind of truth over there. Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity. So it's all one with God. The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God. His knowledge embraces it all. And that's why some of us on this list don't care much for the notion of NOMA. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LOTR
Spoiler warning Gary: Actually, his friend was Shelob the spider. I wouldn't call Shelob his friend. More like his master. Gary: Actually, there are three known. The Steward of Gondor also has one, which falls into the plot of the ensuing movies. Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that the Steward's palantir is not made known to Gandalf until The Return of the King. So while it was known to the Steward, it wasn't generally known, which is how I took your question. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
Mark - I tried it as well on another list - it will not work. Your concept makes too much sense for someone imbued with science to accept. George - Original Message - From: Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an agnostic. This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway: Marc, what is God's view of science and religion? Does He separate the two? Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate? Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a straight answer from you on them. If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, would you mind refreshing my memory? The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one. There is absolutely no dividing line with this kind of truth over here and that kind of truth over there. Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity. So it's all one with God. The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God. His knowledge embraces it all. And that's why some of us on this list don't care much for the notion of NOMA. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
John W. Redelfs wrote: Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you? --JWR There's a one-panel cartoon which sums up my weaknesses. A fellow is saying I thought - what would Jesus do? And I tried to forgive him. Then I thought - what would Porter Rockwell do? And I punched his face in. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....
Any way to get Utah by sound only cheaper? I'm trying to find out the cheapest way to do it. Stacy. At 11:21 AM 12/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: Shortly after we moved into our new home a year and a half ago, Dish Network had a deal where you paid $199 for the dish and receiver, and got basic 100 channel programming for $19/month for a year. This was a good deal, and we took them up on it. This last summer, the price per month went up. There is one good reason we have kept it. That is the BYU channel. We watched confrence, the First Presidency's Christmas address, and more on it. Great great stuff! Scott On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:42:15 -0900, John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Gary Smith favored us with: People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV. In that case, we get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference, BYU education week, etc. It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place. Lol. Stacy. At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there (other than Bush, I mean :-). If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his ally. I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the way, is pretty high up on my list. And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward). I honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the free market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith wrote: Yes, I like those funny jokes too. As opposed to the jokes I usually tell. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
At 17:53 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote: You proceed from a false assumption. A football doesn't HAVE feathers. Certainly not in the same respect that horses and gophers do. Till who used to hate gopher feathers in his orange juice when he was a little tyke // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Stacy Smith wrote: Can I call from out of state? I did. The human answering the line after you press 2 (they were getting more calls than their computer could handle, I guess) did ask me if I was calling from out of state - and from where. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith wrote: Luckily even the other list I'm on doesn't have this guy. Not yet, anyway. Can a person really protect herself on the internet? An ex-boyfriend even found me on a certain list. I'm beginning to think that if I don't want to be found by certain people I shouldn't be on any lists at all. You can, of course, limit the amount of information you provide to lists -- such as your real name, etc. But the internet just makes a little easier what's been true since at least the 1960s, and that's that there is no true privacy anymore. The only hope for privacy is that there is so MUCH information available that one's individual data becomes difficult to sort out from the surrounding white noise. We now view old movies and certain TV shows such as *the Fugitive* as charming, and remember when one could get a job and rent a home without severe background checks. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
That's probably a very good guy and not the one I'm referring to. I know of two Wrights, one I would love to see again and one I wish to forget. Stacy. At 09:41 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: We have a Brother Wright in our ward. He is a Special Forces sniper. Could he help out here? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: Just so long as that other guy named Wright doesn't come along. Well, I'm sure you'll look out for him. He might be trouble. Stacy. At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they haven't thrown me out yet. grin Again, welcome. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
A very interesting point worth considering. We're also sending them out as well. Stacy. At 09:34 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: I get three A's. We have been given intellectual gifts to employ. The word employ here is very important, for it means that we must work at figuring things out, at overcoming our natural man instincts. We may be of the fold, but we are not sheep. In determining the ability of a country's government to hold[ing] sacred the freedom of conscience, I use the measure of whether or not there are missionaries in that country. If there are not, then it is clear that, notwithstanding some special agreement between the Church and the government such as in Israel, that government is subject to serious review by its populace. Since I just went on an exchange with our missionaries, and since we just had more than 100 missionaries visit the store while on their semi-annual trip to the temple, I think that the US is OK for at least another year or two. Jon - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:02 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Jim Cobabe favored us with: Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 8. But I also believe DC 134:5 which reads: We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own hands. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] trinitarianism
No, you'll have the content -- it's just the endnotes and some of the formatting that's messed up. Also, I spelled homoousis and homoiousis the same in Greek; the latter should have an iota between the two omicrons. Minor stuff like that. Jon Spencer wrote: Bummer! I just printed it off to read. I assume that the content won't change, so I'll try to save some trees. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip it into better shape. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] No biological basis for race
A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis for determining race: http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=concept+of+raceoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=concept+of+race -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Jon Spencer wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there (other than Bush, I mean :-). Sure, and I don't mean to pick on Pakistan. My point was to show what I felt was hypocrisy on the part of US foreign policy (such as there ever is a consensus on such a matter); for every reason they stated to invade Iraq, I felt the same reason applied in spades to Pakistan. Naturally I don't want anyone invading Pakistan. I would rather you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home. If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his ally. The partnership with Stalin is one thing, but there is a formalized system of military alliances in place now. You may have heard of it: NATO. I think that's what's usually meant by our Allies the way Bush uses the term (although I'm sure he'd add in countries like Australia and Japan). The problem is the natural expectation that the EU, Turkey, Canada, Japan and Australia (plus a few others) would automatically be expected to see US foreign policy as *our* foreign policy, and it just ain't so. The world's not that simple. We get spoofed a lot for our small armed forces (although mind you, we keep kickin' butt at the annual Top Gun fighter games, and at least we don't kill our allies in Afghanistan...) but this is one situation where you can't just apply the 1:10 rule that often applies. That is, we have one tenth the population, so when comparing stats, you can usually be safe by dividing US stats by 10, or conversely multiplying Canadian stats by 10, for a comparison. And this works in many comparisons. But it doesn't work in military forces because we're not a superpower and don't consider ourselves morally obliged to intervene unilaterally in other peoples' affairs (almost all our military efforts have been dedicated to providing UN peacekeeping forces and NORAD). Which reminds me. I'm bcc'ing a fellow I know on LDS-Poll (I'm no longer there because I went through a particularly severe dip in my health that I'm only now starting to come out of, so cut back on my Internet activity) who criticized Canada for not keeping up to its NORAD commitment. He was referring to the proposed continental missile shield. And this illustrates my point precisely: the missile shield is *proposed*, it is not yet NORAD policy, but many USAmericans naturally assume we'll agree to anything they propose. From what reading I've done, the Brits used to have this problem, and the French before them, and the Romans, and so on and so on: a very self-centred view of the world. Now every nation ought to operate from its own best interests, and if we had the economy, population and military might of the US, we'd almost certainly act in the very same way, and the quasi-imperium Pax Americana is a lot more benign than its predecessors. But it is still a quasi-imperialist point of view by its very nature. I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the way, is pretty high up on my list. The problem is that the list is forever changing, and by assigning national names like Afghanistan we fool ourselves. This is not about a clash of nation states, something which isn't part of the Middle Eastern self-image, or Weltanschauung, either, for that matter (outwards-looking view on the world). When I would travel to the Middle East and would ask a member of the elite (like the business people and educated people that I dealt with) what their nationality was, they'd say Egyptian, Libyan, Lebanese etc. But when I asked the guy who shined my shoes what his nationality was, he'd say Arab. Until we realize that the nation state is a product of the industrial revolution, drawing lines on maps and artificially carving out nation states in a pre-industrial region (by and large) will just cause problems. Every imperial power that has intervened in the region has come away chastened, and the USA (with its allies) will be no different. You think WTC was bad? Just wait[sorry to be a Cassandra, but I'm very pessimistic about this]
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Doh! The character you're thinking of isn't Pakistani. He can't be, since he's Hindu. Ya can't hit the targets if ya can't see 'em Jim Cobabe wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: --- I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) --- Sounds like a Simpsons episode. Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian counterpart-apparent. :-0 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
Mark Gregson wrote: NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an agnostic. This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway: Marc, what is God's view of science and religion? Does He separate the two? His servants seem to. From the 1931 statement: [Heber J. Grant presidency] Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church For more on the general topic of science and religion in Mormonism, I'd suggest the article by that name in the EoM: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_1_8.htm Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate? No, but that's not the question I was raising. Both science and religion are man-made terms for concepts, and I would suggest God is above both of them. I think what many people get uneasy over is how to draw a distinction between the activity, or discipline, of science as a human activity, and natural philosophy, the old, pre-scientific name for looking at the physical world in a physical way. One of the first things Man was commanded to do was to name the animals, and we've been categorizing ever since. Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a straight answer from you on them. If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, would you mind refreshing my memory? Hope the above helps. The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one. There is absolutely no dividing line with this kind of truth over here and that kind of truth over there. Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity. So it's all one with God. The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God. His knowledge embraces it all. And that's why some of us on this list don't care much for the notion of NOMA. But we're not on God's plane, so while in this telestial sphere, NOMA, or the 1931 statement, which amounts to the same thing, will have to suffice, as in so many other affairs. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
The joke going around during Gulf War I, if I can call it that, was: what movie has been banned by Saddam Hussein? Iraqnophobia, of course. (Arachnophobia, a horror flick involving spiders, was in the movie theatres about that time). Stacy Smith wrote: You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place. Lol. Stacy. At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there (other than Bush, I mean :-). If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his ally. I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the way, is pretty high up on my list. And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward). I honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the free market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Jon Spencer favored us with: First off, this probably belongs on lds-poll. And second, if you can even seriously entertain such ideas, it either says a Lott about you or a Lott about the country. Of course, it could be that my not being able to SERIOUSLY entertain such ideas may say a Lott about me! Last I looked the list charter said we are to discuss life, the universe, and everything with a few topical restrictions. Therefore, the Zion list is an appropriate forum for political discussion as long as it doesn't get into areas such as sexual perversion, feminism, abortion, or melt down the list with bad feelings. Anyway, I didn't say Bush was behind the opium distribution, I just said that many on the right believe he was. I simply don't know, although it wouldn't surprise me to find out that he was. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
George Cobabe favored us with: The problem is that the doctrine of the trinity is so convoluted we cannot if discuss it without being subject to the same requirements of confusion and misunderstanding. Not much simpler is it? I think I got it the second time around. Still, conceptually it is a little above my head, like something that Dennis Potter might write. For me it is enough to know that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is nonsense, is just a corrupted form of the doctrine we believe in that there is a Godhead comprised of an individual Father, an individual Son, and an individual Holy Ghost. I believe that the doctrine of reincarnation which is believed in many of the eastern religions is just an apostate version of the true doctrine of resurrection. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith favored us with: What's this other list and why not have the same screening questionnaire? The Moroni list is for Birchers and the like. I had to set it up to keep from driving most of my best contributors from this list. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: Even Till has taken a tumble once, from a Norton. There was this rock in the road which he smuck amidships at 60. The rest is subject to some pretty vivid imagining. HE thinks rocks are dangerous (not to mention young men). Three times in my life I've been on a motorcycle, and I've never had a spill. Once on a 150cc Honda in 1963, again on a somewhat larger Honda in 1966, and lastly on a 250cc once cylinder thumper in 1968. Since then I have avoided motorcycles because I don't want to die. My dad was an anesthesiologist and spent much of his career in the operating room. He saw a lot of motorcycle accident victims, and he called them murder cycles, not motorcycles. Since I can't seem to avoid crashing my car, I thought it foolish for me to trust my bad luck on a motorcycle. Still, I have fantasies of a Harley Hog going clear back to when I was 16 and still riding bicycles. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement
Forwarded with permission from Ken Kyle, who is LDS and works at the Canadian Cancer Society, as director of public issues. The first item is a recent newspaper article, the second some background from Ken on his involvement with this. The Church News has been in contact with him about possibly doing a story on this. Court rejects tobacco industry challenge of federal advertising law DONALD MCKENZIE Canadian Press Friday, December 13, 2002 MONTREAL (CP) - Canada's anti-tobacco lobby urged the federal government on Friday to crack down even further on cigarette manufacturers after a judge dismissed an industry challenge of the Tobacco Act governing advertising. Canada's three main tobacco companies argued the law forcing them to put warning labels on cigarette packages is unconstitutional because it unfairly limits their right to do business and market a legal product. But Quebec Superior Court Justice Andre Denis rejected their view, noting in his ruling that cigarettes kill 45,000 Canadians a year. They (tobacco companies) are trying to save an industry in inevitable decline and they have every right to do so, Denis wrote. Their rights, however, cannot be given the same legitimacy as the government's to protect public health. The law also bans tobacco advertising in broadcast outlets, billboards, street kiosks, bus panels and store displays. Anti-tobacco officials were ecstatic with Friday's ruling. It's just dynamite, dynamite, said Francois Damphousse, director of the Quebec office of the Non-Smokers' Rights Association. It's a tremendous ruling because the judge has recognized that tobacco is a major, major public health problem. Donald McCarty, a vice-president at Imperial Tobacco Canada Ltd., said the industry was disappointed with the decision. He hinted at an appeal but also said negotiations with the federal government would help avoid years of legal wrangling. The judge also criticized the tobacco companies for using terms such as light on their cigarette packages. Rob Cunningham, a spokesman for the Canadian Cancer Society, called on Ottawa to seize the momentum created by the ruling and amend the law to eliminate prominent retail displays of tobacco products as well as what he called deceptive descriptions such as light and mild. Alex Swann, a spokesman for Health Minister Anne McLellan, said the department was pleased with the decision and that the minister is looking at the light and mild issue. The health minister will continue to look at possible measures that would be effective in fighting the problem of tobacco, Swann said from Ottawa. On the light and mild issue specifically, the minister is examining options. McCarty, who was also speaking on behalf of Rothmans, Benson and Hedges Inc. and JTI-Macdonald Corp., said the companies agree that tobacco should be regulated. We need to say that those regulations need to be reasonable, McCarty said. The industry has always said that there are clearly serious risks associated with tobacco use. But tobacco is not the only product widely used in society that has risks attached to it. Recently in the United States, they've decided that obesity is now the No. 1 health problem there. Cunningham also said Denis upheld a ban on tobacco sponsorships of sports and cultural events. The ban takes effect next Oct. 1. This is a massive and total victory for public health in Canada today, Cunningham said. In historic terms, the tobacco industry has never been criticized to the extent that it has in this judgment. The case began last January. === Mark -- Here is some background on the court decision last Friday, as you requested. Since 1986 I have been Director of Public Issues for the Canadian Cancer Society (CCS) in Ottawa, Canada, reporting to our CEO at CCS headquarters in Toronto. This means I have been responsible for the CCS's lobbying and government relations activities to convince the Parliament of Canada, among other issues, to pass laws preventing cancer. (One of my projects a few years ago, for example, was to Co-Chair the international Smoke Free Skies campaign which organized public health and civil aviation authorities in many countries to successfully lobby the International Civil Aviation Authority (one of the United Nations family of organizations) to pass a resolution in 1992 banning smoking on international commercial flights.) In 1987 I worked with a few other individuals from other health groups and successfully lobbied Parliament to ban tobacco advertising in Canada in 1998. There was then a five year marathon battle in the courts after the tobacco industry challenged the constitutionality of these provisions. We eventually lost 5 - 4 at the Supreme Court of Canada in 1995. But the Supreme Court provided guidance for new legislation. I then headed up the CCS's efforts to work with other health groups to successfully lobby for replacement legislation - the Tobacco Act, which was passed
RE: [ZION] Just finished reading....
Stacy Smith: Any way to get Utah by sound only cheaper? I'm trying to find out the cheapest way to do it. ___ Try www.kbyu.org -- I think they have an audio feed you could listen to on your pc, if you really wanted to do that. Many other radio stations in Utah also have streaming internet feeds. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go at that. I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly. The fly kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an insect, and the horse was still a stallion. So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but remember what is true in the end. It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to do anything about it. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved? Jon Spencer wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) Marc, while I agree that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there (other than Bush, I mean :-). Sure, and I don't mean to pick on Pakistan. My point was to show what I felt was hypocrisy on the part of US foreign policy (such as there ever is a consensus on such a matter); for every reason they stated to invade Iraq, I felt the same reason applied in spades to Pakistan. Naturally I don't want anyone invading Pakistan. I would rather you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home. If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have very few allies indeed. We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war efforts. Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone their behavior. Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his ally. The partnership with Stalin is one thing, but there is a formalized system of military alliances in place now. You may have heard of it: NATO. I think that's what's usually meant by our Allies the way Bush uses the term (although I'm sure he'd add in countries like Australia and Japan). The problem is the natural expectation that the EU, Turkey, Canada, Japan and Australia (plus a few others) would automatically be expected to see US foreign policy as *our* foreign policy, and it just ain't so. The world's not that simple. We get spoofed a lot for our small armed forces (although mind you, we keep kickin' butt at the annual Top Gun fighter games, and at least we don't kill our allies in Afghanistan...) but this is one situation where you can't just apply the 1:10 rule that often applies. That is, we have one tenth the population, so when comparing stats, you can usually be safe by dividing US stats by 10, or conversely multiplying Canadian stats by 10, for a comparison. And this works in many comparisons. But it doesn't work in military forces because we're not a superpower and don't consider ourselves morally obliged to intervene unilaterally in other peoples' affairs (almost all our military efforts have been dedicated to providing UN peacekeeping forces and NORAD). Which reminds me. I'm bcc'ing a fellow I know on LDS-Poll (I'm no longer there because I went through a particularly severe dip in my health that I'm only now starting to come out of, so cut back on my Internet activity) who criticized Canada for not keeping up to its NORAD commitment. He was referring to the proposed continental missile shield. And this illustrates my point precisely: the missile shield is *proposed*, it is not yet NORAD policy, but many USAmericans naturally assume we'll agree to anything they propose. From what reading I've done, the Brits used to have this problem, and the French before them, and the Romans, and so on and so on: a very self-centred view of the world. Now every nation ought to operate from its own best interests, and if we had the economy, population and military might of the US, we'd almost certainly act in the very same way, and the quasi-imperium Pax Americana is a lot more benign than its predecessors. But it is still a quasi-imperialist point of view by its very nature. I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your problems and work from the top down. Perhaps it is the case that you have a different prioritized list than do I. However, I think that Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the way, is pretty high up on my list. The problem is that the list is forever changing, and by assigning national names like Afghanistan we fool ourselves. This is not about a clash of nation states, something which isn't part of the Middle Eastern self-image, or Weltanschauung, either, for that matter (outwards-looking view on the world).
Re: [ZION] The Laughing Savior
I think we can assume so, but indirectly -- by the references to criticisms of him by the Pharisees, for hanging out with winebibbers, publicans and other sinners. I don't imagine such meals were always sombre ;-) John W. Redelfs wrote: Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of humor? Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no laughs. What do you think? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc suggests: If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, one would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it laid the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy, were all inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not religious doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it was the French following the American example. I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be wrong about things like this. You may be looking at the roots of the French experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual revolutionary events. And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 John W. Redelfs wrote: Marc A. Schindler favored us with: There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is while a conditional term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well? Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to rebel against Britain. It actually doesn't say this. See below. How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth Article of faith? This is how I make the reconciliation. Rebel against constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so. I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the only one possible. The DC does not mention the American Revolution, it says the founding fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in particular DC 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the reference to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent clause. Here's the whole verse: And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.. I certainly believe the US is the cradle of the restoration and that the *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact form of the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a cultural addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore inspired. I think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to LDS in the US -- think of the term manifest destiny, which alludes to a divine mission. I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of options and uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference, actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in how it came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost certainly because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its other colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you think we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that boils down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite the differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights and applied them in their own democratization. In fact, DC 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether that's unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word while means. I understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the use of force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a member of the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing your Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its ends. If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, one would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it laid the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis for determining race: http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=concept+of+raceoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_re The study discussed in the article was performed on Brazilians, a highly racially-heterogenous group -- and on a very heterogenous subgroup of Brazilians, too. The study is ridiculous; it's like saying, There is no such thing as dog breeds, because we went to the pound and found no strong correlation between the mongrels' supposed breed and their actual attributes. Totally bogus. I will bet that performing the same study between groups of Japanese, Norwegians, and Ethiopians would give the lie to the statement that skin colour is a poor indication of ancestry. Besides, the concept of race consists of much more than skin color, despite the article's implication otherwise. Body build, height, facial features, hair color/texture/distribution, subcutaneous adipose preponderance -- all these are considered racial features. While mentioned in the study, these are clearly relegated to the back seat, as evidenced by the article's opening line. Actually they weren't. The author of the article doesn't mention them up front, but as Thomas Hudson from McGill University is quoted as saying, 'The physical traits of an individual -- especially skin pigmentation, hair colour, hair texture, and the shape of the lips and nose -- are constantly used for racial categorization and thus play an extremely influential role in human social relationships, the authors write. Yet, they point out, It is possible for two siblings differing in colour to belong to completely diverse racial categories' in Brazil. He clearly equates the other physical features with colour as a traditional designator of race. There very clearly is a biological basis for the characteristics we classify as race. It's called genetics. The statement that there is no biological basis for race is absurd on its face, and those that hold to it are either deeply ignorant or else have an axe to grind. Can you show this from a scientific source? With all due respect, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Not meant as an attack -- I just want to see a contrary scientific view. This story isn't news -- it just adds to the pile. Geneticists have been saying this for a long time. Incidentally, not only do we have nothing to fear from this, but in light of the Tom Murphy affair, this actually gives us ammunition. I'm using it in some apologetics work I'm doing regarding Murphy's review of DNA and Lamanites. It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise, or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist is to be tautologically incorrect That's not what the article is saying, and it's not something I would claim, either, fwiw. The point is whether race is a sociological concept or a biological concept. Admitting it is social is not to say it doesn't exist -- you've either misinterpreted the paper or are making a logical error. -- people whose ancestry originated in different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological basis for race is to play the fool. Stephen Play the fool is not a scientific concept either ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] A voice of moderation: The language of Islam has been hijacked
Interesting, and welcome, note of moderation from Ms. Sheena Khan, the head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Canada. http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021217/COSHEEMA/Comment/comment/commentColumnistsHeadline_temp/4/4/6/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
slapping forehead You're right. Sorry -- I just got my history mixed up. I guess I must have been thinking of French intellectual influence that preceded the revolution (ie de Tocqueville, not to mention Lafayette's military assistance). George Cobabe wrote: Marc suggests: If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, one would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it laid the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy, were all inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not religious doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it was the French following the American example. I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be wrong about things like this. You may be looking at the roots of the French experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual revolutionary events. And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 John W. Redelfs wrote: Marc A. Schindler favored us with: There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is while a conditional term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well? Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to rebel against Britain. It actually doesn't say this. See below. How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth Article of faith? This is how I make the reconciliation. Rebel against constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so. I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the only one possible. The DC does not mention the American Revolution, it says the founding fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in particular DC 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the reference to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent clause. Here's the whole verse: And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.. I certainly believe the US is the cradle of the restoration and that the *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact form of the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a cultural addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore inspired. I think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to LDS in the US -- think of the term manifest destiny, which alludes to a divine mission. I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of options and uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference, actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in how it came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost certainly because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its other colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you think we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that boils down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite the differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights and applied them in their own democratization. In fact, DC 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether that's unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word while means. I understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the use of force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a member of the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing your Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its ends. If one feels the
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Jim Cobabe wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: --- I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) --- Sounds like a Simpsons episode. Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they sort of look alike, so what's the difference? Opps! Now I guess I have to pull a Lott. I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV). Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian counterpart-apparent. :-0 Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop. At least I thikn so. Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-) Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LOTR
Only 5 hours until LOTR II starts. Who already has their tickets? Jon Larry Jackson wrote: Gary Smith: Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, ... ___ There must be a disconnect somewhere. I know that Tom has a keen sense of humor, and I'm sure he enjoys laughing on the rug. That's the same thing up north as ROTFL is down south, right? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name and from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to be part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid that Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular state and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths as many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a third country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite the rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country (in terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent, Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date from the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution. India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country. Jon Spencer wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: --- I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) --- Sounds like a Simpsons episode. Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they sort of look alike, so what's the difference? Opps! Now I guess I have to pull a Lott. I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV). Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian counterpart-apparent. :-0 Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop. At least I thikn so. Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-) Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] LOTR
I do! My sons and I have a date -- I told my students today that I wouldn't be there tomorrow because we had an appointment that would take about 3 hours. . .they never figured it out ;-) val On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:00:54 -0500 Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Only 5 hours until LOTR II starts. Who already has their tickets? Jon Larry Jackson wrote: Gary Smith: Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, ... ___ There must be a disconnect somewhere. I know that Tom has a keen sense of humor, and I'm sure he enjoys laughing on the rug. That's the same thing up north as ROTFL is down south, right? / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: ... ___ This just is true, I'm afraid. And your excerpt begins by saying just what I said. That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person running the copy center is your prerogative. That you feel the spokesman was not appropriate because the US didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in Canada is also your prerogative. Enjoy your prerogative. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement
Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up with. Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in Canada. I hope so. I really hope so. Because in this country, the tobacco companies are being beaten on by being sued. They raise their prices, so that everyone wins: the government gets more money, the tobacco companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what, and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers. Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Tom Murphy
For those of you who are following the Tom Murphy affair (aka DNA and the Lamanites), you might be interested to know that Jeff Lindsay has recently updated his apologetics page on the topic: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml It's not written for a professional geneticist (which is not a bad thing) but is an excellent survey, imo. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
