[Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility for 2.7: decision

2003-01-14 Thread Brian Lloyd
Hi all -

There has been some discussion lately regarding whether or not 
the next Zope feature release (2.7) should require Python 2.2.2 
or not. For background, this is something that was already on the 
project plan, with the idea being that it would be easier to 
backport interesting things from Zope 3 if Zope 2.7 were based on 
Python 2.2.

I'd like to make the edict that the plan stands, and 2.7 will be 
based on Python 2.2.2. The decision is based on several things:

  - Even though some of the specific backporting efforts that got 
this on the plan in the first place have stalled, it would still be 
nice for backporting to be *possible* to a near-term Zope 2.x release

  - Release cycles never go as quickly as you want them to, and 
historically a couple of second-dot releases a year is a lot :)

Putting off Python 2.2 support until 2.8 could mean putting it 
off for longer than I think we'd want, especially considering 
the rapid progress Z3 is making. As Z3 continues to mature, I 
expect there will be more desire to backport certain things.


Note that after the work has been done to assess Python 2.2.2 with Zope, 
it should be possible to "bless" Python 2.2.2 as a supported platform 
for a Zope 2.6.x release as well. This means that:

  - Zope 2.7 would "require" Python 2.2.2 (code can contain 2.2-isms), 
and binary distributions would include it.

  - Zope 2.6.x would support both 2.1.2 and 2.2.2 (but the code would
contain no 2.2-isms).


Brian Lloyd[EMAIL PROTECTED]
V.P. Engineering   540.361.1716  
Zope Corporation   http://www.zope.com 

 

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-14 Thread Guido van Rossum
> On Monday 13 January 2003 7:46 pm, Casey Duncan wrote:
> 
> > I personally feel like Zope should run on 2.2.x whether required or not.
> > Requiring 2.2.x does have the advantage of limiting the possible blessed
> > configurations on which Zope will run, thereby making development, support
> > and bug fixing that much easier.

[Toby]
> Im not sure thats true. Having less strict version requirements
> means that there will be *more* *people* doing the development,
> support, and bug fixing.

Hm.  My experience with Zope 3 is that if developers can choose
different Python versions, it's quite easy for version-dependent bugs
to creep in, and it can take a while to track these down.  For
example, Zope 3 currently has some unit test suite failures that only
occur on Python 2.3, and the only developer who knows the broken code
well enough to fix them has no time to maintain both the 2.2.2 and the
2.3 code.

So I'm (now) convinced that we should pick one Python version and
stick with it, and not worry (too much) about failures with later
Python versions.  But it's Brian's call, and unless he agrees to
switch back to 2.1.3, this is moot.  In the mean time I ask not to use
Python 2.2 features like bool gratuitously.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-14 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Monday 13 January 2003 7:46 pm, Casey Duncan wrote:

> I personally feel like Zope should run on 2.2.x whether required or not.
> Requiring 2.2.x does have the advantage of limiting the possible blessed
> configurations on which Zope will run, thereby making development, support
> and bug fixing that much easier.

Im not sure thats true. Having less strict version requirements means that 
there will be *more* *people* doing the development, support, and bug fixing. 

-- 
Toby Dickenson
http://www.geminidataloggers.com/people/tdickenson

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Guido van Rossum
> FYI, the current CVS head (to be 2.7) now requires 2.2.2 as per an
> earlier papal edict. So there will be at least some work involved in
> making it run under 2.1.3.

I know.  It's not much work, and I have already volunteered to do it.
Jim has explicitly undone that decision and told me it's Brian's call
now.

> I kindof feel like we already made a rather firm commitment to
> *requiring* 2.2.x. I did not fully agree with that decision at the
> time, but to renig on it now seems fairly counterproductive unless
> someone can provide a really good reason.

I also did not agree at the time.  I don't see how it can be
counterproductive to change a broken decision.

> I personally feel like Zope should run on 2.2.x whether required or
> not.  Requiring 2.2.x does have the advantage of limiting the
> possible blessed configurations on which Zope will run, thereby
> making development, support and bug fixing that much easier.

I *also* volunteer to make sure that *to the limits of my knowledge*
Zope 2.7 indeed continues to run under Python 2.2.2.

> Otherwise I can see having to develop on Python 2.1.x and test on
> 2.1.x and 2.2.x. It would be nice not to have to do this when
> developing 2.7 only code.  I realize that this would be necessary
> when backporting things to 2.6.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Casey Duncan
On Monday 13 January 2003 09:56 am, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > What would the arguments be for sticking with Zope 2.1.3 for Zope 2.7? I
> > feel most people want to use the latest and greatest versions, usually...
> 
> Actually, most people don't care about the latest and greatest, and
> would prefer tried and trusted.  Especially if the latest and greatest
> means they have to install more stuff.
> 
> > Or?
> > 
> > Of course, if the requirement could be 2.1.3 *or* 2.2.2, that would
> > be nice, but is that realistic?
> 
> In practice, Zope 2.6(.x) already fulfills this requirement, it's only
> that ZC doesn't have the resources to guarantee it.  I think 2.7 would
> be in the same boat.

FYI, the current CVS head (to be 2.7) now requires 2.2.2 as per an earlier 
papal edict. So there will be at least some work involved in making it run 
under 2.1.3.

I kindof feel like we already made a rather firm commitment to *requiring* 
2.2.x. I did not fully agree with that decision at the time, but to renig on 
it now seems fairly counterproductive unless someone can provide a really 
good reason.

I personally feel like Zope should run on 2.2.x whether required or not. 
Requiring 2.2.x does have the advantage of limiting the possible blessed 
configurations on which Zope will run, thereby making development, support 
and bug fixing that much easier.

Otherwise I can see having to develop on Python 2.1.x and test on 2.1.x and 
2.2.x. It would be nice not to have to do this when developing 2.7 only code. 
I realize that this would be necessary when backporting things to 2.6.

-Casey

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Charlie Reiman

> To: "Lennart Regebro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility
> From: Guido van Rossum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:56:23 -0500
>
> > What would the arguments be for sticking with Zope 2.1.3 for Zope 2.7? I
> > feel most people want to use the latest and greatest versions,
> usually...
>
> Actually, most people don't care about the latest and greatest, and
> would prefer tried and trusted.  Especially if the latest and greatest
> means they have to install more stuff.

I disagree. If I wanted to stagnate, I just wouldn't upgrade. Speaking as a
joe average user, I'd much rather see forward progress on development. That
way, when I do hit a bug with my current (old) version I have somewhere to
go. Besides, most systems ship with 2.2.2 right now. Demanding 2.1.3 means
installing more stuff for new users, not vice-versa.

Right now I'm in a bit of a pickle since our inhouse development is all on
2.2.2. But I'm the sole Zope developer so I have to stick with 2.1.3 (and
its weaker error checking). Obviously, they can coexist and that's not a
huge problem but it is annoying.

I understand that 2.6 runs with 2.2.2... well, that's fine but in the spirit
of your comment above: that's a little too far into the realm of the unknown
and untested. Without papal blessing, I'm not willing to hack up my 2.6 to
run under 2.2.2 and put it into production.

There is also the matter of pride. I'd rather have Zope running on the
latest and greatest, especially since 2.2 has been out for months now and
2.3 is already alpha. Running under an old version implies that there is
something wrong with Python 2.2 or Zope 2.6 that just can't be fixed.


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: "Guido van Rossum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> In practice, Zope 2.6(.x) already fulfills this requirement, it's only
> that ZC doesn't have the resources to guarantee it.  I think 2.7 would
> be in the same boat.

OK, then I would preferr that 2.1.3 should be the officially supported, just
like with 2.6, because most people who run 2.2.2 and see that 2.1.3 is
required, will try anyway, but if you are on 2.1.3 and see that 2.2.2 is
required, you might get cold feet.



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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Guido van Rossum
> What would the arguments be for sticking with Zope 2.1.3 for Zope 2.7? I
> feel most people want to use the latest and greatest versions, usually...

Actually, most people don't care about the latest and greatest, and
would prefer tried and trusted.  Especially if the latest and greatest
means they have to install more stuff.

> Or?
> 
> Of course, if the requirement could be 2.1.3 *or* 2.2.2, that would
> be nice, but is that realistic?

In practice, Zope 2.6(.x) already fulfills this requirement, it's only
that ZC doesn't have the resources to guarantee it.  I think 2.7 would
be in the same boat.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Chris Withers
Lennart Regebro wrote:


Of course, if the requirement could be 2.1.3 *or* 2.2.2, that would be nice,
but is that realistic?


This would be best and I don't see why it shouldn't happen...

cheers,

Chris


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[Zope-dev] Zope and Python compatibility

2003-01-13 Thread Lennart Regebro
What would the arguments be for sticking with Zope 2.1.3 for Zope 2.7? I
feel most people want to use the latest and greatest versions, usually...
Or?

Of course, if the requirement could be 2.1.3 *or* 2.2.2, that would be nice,
but is that realistic?


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-12 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Sunday 12 January 2003 8:16 pm, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 January 2003 4:06 pm, Jamie Heilman wrote:
> > > Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > > > > Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely
> > > > > exploitable zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW
> >
> > There are workarounds that work in 2.1.x, and I dont think any uses in
> > Zope are performance-critical. I will be happy to push through any
> > patches for any other Zopes uses.
>
> I expect I'll be releasing Python 2.1.4 in the next month or so.  Can
> you submit a patch and assign it to me?

The fix in python 2.2 is in rev 2.44 of zlibmodule.c.  It involves an API 
addition to the zlib module, which I understand is discouraged for a Python 
bug fix release?

I think the workarounds in Zope are a better solution for Zope 2.6.x. We can 
gradually migrate these to the new zlib API once Zope has other dependencies 
on Python 2.2

-- 
Toby Dickenson
http://www.geminidataloggers.com/people/tdickenson

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
> On Saturday 11 January 2003 4:06 pm, Jamie Heilman wrote:
> > Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > > > Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely exploitable
> > > > zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW
> 
> There are workarounds that work in 2.1.x, and I dont think any uses in Zope 
> are performance-critical. I will be happy to push through any patches for any 
> other Zopes uses.

I expect I'll be releasing Python 2.1.4 in the next month or so.  Can
you submit a patch and assign it to me?

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-12 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Saturday 11 January 2003 4:06 pm, Jamie Heilman wrote:
> Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > > Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely exploitable
> > > zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW

There are workarounds that work in 2.1.x, and I dont think any uses in Zope 
are performance-critical. I will be happy to push through any patches for any 
other Zopes uses.

> > Can you explain?  Where does Zope even use zlib?
>
> dtml-tree for one,

That is the least of your worries for dtml-tree. Please try the patch at:
http://www.zope.org/Members/htrd/tree.diff

This has a chance for 2.6.2 if I get enough positive feedback from people who 
actually use dtml-tree. (and a sufficently paranoid review would be nice 
too.)

-- 
Toby Dickenson
http://www.geminidataloggers.com/people/tdickenson

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-11 Thread Jamie Heilman
Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely exploitable
> > zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW
> 
> Can you explain?  Where does Zope even use zlib?

dtml-tree for one, more recent versions of ztutils' tree code as well
although its mitigated to an extent by some hardcoded length limits;
those are the only two I know of off the top of my head.  rlimits will
ensure the zope process doesn't hork the rest of the host, but even
better is using the improved decompression objects available in python
2.2 which allow for low memory usage decompression.

-- 
Jamie Heilman   http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/
"I was in love once -- a Sinclair ZX-81.  People said, "No, Holly, she's 
 not for you." She was cheap, she was stupid and she wouldn't load 
 -- well, not for me, anyway."  -Holly

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-10 Thread Guido van Rossum
> Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely exploitable
> zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW

Can you explain?  Where does Zope even use zlib?

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-10 Thread Jamie Heilman
> I'm beginning to wonder whether Zope 2.7 shouldn't require Python
> 2.1.3 rather than 2.2.2.  The original motivation for requiring 2.2.x
> was to allow easy backporting of Zope 3 components, and that is no
> longer a goal.  I've asked Brian to review the version decision in
> this light.

Without python 2.2 zope will continue to harbor remotely exploitable
zlib-based memory exhaustion attacks. FWIW
 
-- 
Jamie Heilman   http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/
"We must be born with an intuition of mortality.  Before we know the words
 for it, before we know there are words, out we come bloodied and squalling
 with the knowledge that for all the compasses in the world, there's only
 one direction, and time is its only measure."  -Rosencrantz

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-10 Thread Guido van Rossum
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good

I'm beginning to wonder whether Zope 2.7 shouldn't require Python
2.1.3 rather than 2.2.2.  The original motivation for requiring 2.2.x
was to allow easy backporting of Zope 3 components, and that is no
longer a goal.  I've asked Brian to review the version decision in
this light.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Anthony Baxter

>>> Leonardo Rochael Almeida wrote
> It is possible to run 2.6 under Python 2.2, but it's unsupported

Note that you'll need 2.2.2. 2.2 and 2.2.1 have bugs that Zope triggers.


-- 
Anthony Baxter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Adam Manock
I would strongly recommend using python version 2.1.3 for Zope 2.5.1 -
2.6.x and python >= 2.2.2 for Zope > 2.6.x.

Adam

On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 12:06, Tena Sakai wrote:
> Greetings zope-dev folks,
> 
> Please help me out.
> 
> I have seen below via google search:
> 
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good
> 
> This article/note was from September, 2002.
> Can someone please comment if the data
> above is still valid?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Tena Sakai ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Clemens Robbenhaar

Tena Sakai writes:
 > Greetings zope-dev folks,
 > 
 > Please help me out.
 > 
 > I have seen below via google search:
 > 
 >Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
 >Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
 >Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
 >Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
 >Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
 >Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good
 > 
 > This article/note was from September, 2002.
 > Can someone please comment if the data
 > above is still valid?
 > 

 The information about the required python version should be in the
README.txt file in the root directory of the Zope installation. 

 If You check this file You will find that nothing had changed since
September 2002.

Cheers,
Clemens

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Jeffrey P Shell
On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 10:06  AM, Tena Sakai wrote:


Greetings zope-dev folks,

Please help me out.

I have seen below via google search:

   Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
   Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
   Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
   Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
   Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
   Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good

This article/note was from September, 2002.
Can someone please comment if the data
above is still valid?


To my knowledge it is, although I recall reading that Zope 2.6.1 is 
intended to be Python 2.2 "compatible" - not breaking, but not 
requiring any Python 2.2 features.

2.6.1 is supposed to have its second beta soon.  I suppose I should 
give the first beta a test against Python 2.2 to see how it goes.  
2.6.1b1's been solid under Python 2.1.3, at least on our development 
box.

Jeffrey P Shell, [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Leonardo Rochael Almeida
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 15:06, Tena Sakai wrote:
> [...]
> 
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good
> 
> This article/note was from September, 2002.
> Can someone please comment if the data
> above is still valid?

Yes, it is.

It is possible to run 2.6 under Python 2.2, but it's unsupported

-- 
Ideas don't stay in some minds very long because they don't like
solitary confinement.


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Chris McDonough
This is right although it's been reported that Zope 2.6 works with
Python 2.2 with no detected problems (so far).

- Original Message -
From: "Tena Sakai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: [Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility


> Greetings zope-dev folks,
>
> Please help me out.
>
> I have seen below via google search:
>
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
>Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
>Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good
>
> This article/note was from September, 2002.
> Can someone please comment if the data
> above is still valid?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Tena Sakai ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>
>
>
>
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[Zope-dev] zope and python compatibility

2003-01-09 Thread Tena Sakai
Greetings zope-dev folks,

Please help me out.

I have seen below via google search:

   Zope 2.5 + Python 2.1  --> Good
   Zope 2.6 + Python 2.1  --> Good
   Zope 2.7 + Python 2.1  --> Bad
   Zope 2.5 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
   Zope 2.6 + Python 2.2  --> Bad
   Zope 2.7 + Python 2.2  --> Good

This article/note was from September, 2002.
Can someone please comment if the data
above is still valid?

Thank you.

Tena Sakai ([EMAIL PROTECTED])





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