Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Philipp von Weitershausen]

Chris Withers wrote:
> Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>>
>>> On the download page, Zope 2 should be above Zope 3.
>>
>> Really? I thought most people want to push Zope 3. Shouldn't the
>> latest release be listed first? I really don't care on way or the
>> other, just curious.
> 
> Zope 2 is the more stable, tested release. I don't care what people want
> to "push", end users should get hinted towards the most stable release ;-)

"More stable" doesn't make any sense in this context. Zope 3.2 is a
stable release, just as much as Zope 2.9 is. "Stable" is hard to
measure. I *think* I know what you mean, but there are other definitions
of "stable" out there. So let's not get into this discussion.


My 2 cents:

* We have three products. Zope 2, the CMF, and Zope 3. They deserve
equal recognition as they have their own strengths.

* We have a lot of Zope-related *technology*, most of which comes in
fact from Zope 3 nowadays. This, not the products, should be the focus
of any "pushing". Zope technology is innovative, drives Python forward
and can be reused perfectly well outside Zope.

IMO all it takes is getting those two points across.

Philipp

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Andrew Sawyers]

On Mon, 2006-03-27 at 08:26 +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
> Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
> >> Why should it be on zope.org?
> > 
> > Um, because it's useful information about Zope, which is sort of what 
> > Zope.org is about? 
> 
> Well, I don't know if that _is_ what zope.org is about anymore. It's 
> been so poor for so long that people have found or created other 
> resources and those aren't going to go away even if zope.org did 
> suddenly become magically better ;-)
Zope.org shouldn't have any designs to do such.  Good projects which
have stepped up should be rewarded and encouraged.
> 
> > "The Web Site for the Zope Community" (...who are 
> > currently discussing Zope at various other places on the web). Thanks 
> > for visiting. :)
> 
> Well, point taken, but I really think zope.org should be a gateway to 
> those existing resources. If, at a later stage, those resources want to 
> migrate back to zope.org, then great, but until then, lets leave them be...
> 
I agree, they should be positioned on zope.org as prominent resources.
Zope.org should be about what's in svn.zope.org and the technology.
Excellent docs, good introductory information (i.e. marketing speak) and
downloads for those products in svn.zope.org

All, IMNSHO,
Andrew
> cheers,
> 
> Chris
> 

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Michael Haubenwallner]

Chris Withers wrote:

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:



> Damn. This really is very good. Would there be any problem with just
> replacing the main_template and Products page on Zope.rog with this 
design?

>
I already proposed to setup his design as an alternative skin in 
zope.org for *testing* with the current content to Tom - he did not 
comment on that.


Sounds good to me, what do I need to do? I'm happy to edit/create ZPT 
as necessary.


I think Michael already answered this below ;-)

Nevertheless, even if we could use it as suggested, we'd need to make 
some changes (right column should be removed or replaced on 
non-Frontpage pages), styles should be defined along the current 
stylesheet, ...


The tying in with existing styles will likely be the suckiest part. If 
you manage that, I think we all owe you beer! *grinz*


Do you have the access rights you need to create a new zope.org skin?



Almost all work is adjusting the stylesheets...
I'd suggest we meet in IRC (#zope-web) and discuss next steps needed.

Michael

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Chris Withers]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:



> Damn. This really is very good. Would there be any problem with just
> replacing the main_template and Products page on Zope.rog with this 
design?

>
I already proposed to setup his design as an alternative skin in 
zope.org for *testing* with the current content to Tom - he did not 
comment on that.


Sounds good to me, what do I need to do? I'm happy to edit/create ZPT as 
necessary.


I think Michael already answered this below ;-)

Nevertheless, even if we could use it as suggested, we'd need to make 
some changes (right column should be removed or replaced on 
non-Frontpage pages), styles should be defined along the current 
stylesheet, ...


The tying in with existing styles will likely be the suckiest part. If 
you manage that, I think we all owe you beer! *grinz*


Do you have the access rights you need to create a new zope.org skin?

cheers,

Chris

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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Chris Withers]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


Its not. Its a lot easier to find answers to my questions though at the 
Apple's support discussion boards, when I have an Apple issue, rather 
than searching Google because I'm searching through very specific 
content, not the web in general and therefore get more accurate results 
and a faster resolution.


Hmmm, well, in the case of Zope, I honestly think you get better results 
if you _do_ use Google because you're not only limiting your search to 
Zope.org, which isn't usually the best source for information...



Why should it be on zope.org?


Um, because it's useful information about Zope, which is sort of what 
Zope.org is about? 


Well, I don't know if that _is_ what zope.org is about anymore. It's 
been so poor for so long that people have found or created other 
resources and those aren't going to go away even if zope.org did 
suddenly become magically better ;-)


"The Web Site for the Zope Community" (...who are 
currently discussing Zope at various other places on the web). Thanks 
for visiting. :)


Well, point taken, but I really think zope.org should be a gateway to 
those existing resources. If, at a later stage, those resources want to 
migrate back to zope.org, then great, but until then, lets leave them be...


cheers,

Chris

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

On Mar 26, 2006, at 2:06 AM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote:


Chris Withers wrote:
> Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>>
>> http://www.modscape.com/zope/v3/products_html
>>
>> Added a products page. Linked from the nav.
>
> Damn. This really is very good. Would there be any problem with just
> replacing the main_template and Products page on Zope.rog with  
this design?

>

I already proposed to setup his design as an alternative skin in  
zope.org for *testing* with the current content to Tom - he did not  
comment on that.


Sounds good to me, what do I need to do? I'm happy to edit/create ZPT  
as necessary.




Nevertheless, even if we could use it as suggested, we'd need to  
make some changes (right column should be removed or replaced on  
non-Frontpage pages), styles should be defined along the current  
stylesheet, ...


Michael

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Michael Haubenwallner]

Chris Withers wrote:
> Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>>
>> http://www.modscape.com/zope/v3/products_html
>>
>> Added a products page. Linked from the nav.
>
> Damn. This really is very good. Would there be any problem with just
> replacing the main_template and Products page on Zope.rog with this 
design?

>

I already proposed to setup his design as an alternative skin in 
zope.org for *testing* with the current content to Tom - he did not 
comment on that.


Nevertheless, even if we could use it as suggested, we'd need to make 
some changes (right column should be removed or replaced on 
non-Frontpage pages), styles should be defined along the current 
stylesheet, ...


Michael

--
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http://planetzope.org
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Chris Withers]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


http://www.modscape.com/zope/v3/products_html

Added a products page. Linked from the nav.


Damn. This really is very good. Would there be any problem with just 
replacing the main_template and Products page on Zope.rog with this design?


cheers,

Chris

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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

On Mar 24, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Chris Withers wrote:


Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:

On the download page, Zope 2 should be above Zope 3.
Really? I thought most people want to push Zope 3. Shouldn't the  
latest release be listed first? I really don't care on way or the  
other, just curious.


Zope 2 is the more stable, tested release. I don't care what people  
want to "push", end users should get hinted towards the most stable  
release ;-)


Yeah, seems like no one likes the idea of message boards. My  
thinking was just that when I search for information I always go  
to Google before I'd ever search Zope.org.


Why is that a problem?


Its not. Its a lot easier to find answers to my questions though at  
the Apple's support discussion boards, when I have an Apple issue,  
rather than searching Google because I'm searching through very  
specific content, not the web in general and therefore get more  
accurate results and a faster resolution.




list threads posted online. It just seems like there's all of this  
valuable chatter that goes on about Zope that never gets to the  
Zope.org


Why should it be on zope.org?


Um, because it's useful information about Zope, which is sort of what  
Zope.org is about? "The Web Site for the Zope Community" (...who are  
currently discussing Zope at various other places on the web). Thanks  
for visiting. :)




cheers,

Chris

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Lennart Regebro]

On 3/25/06, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zope 2 is the more stable, tested release. I don't care what people want
> to "push", end users should get hinted towards the most stable release ;-)

Although I don't agree about stable, the fact is that most people
downloading Zope needs Zope2, for the time being.

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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Chris Withers]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:



On the download page, Zope 2 should be above Zope 3.


Really? I thought most people want to push Zope 3. Shouldn't the latest 
release be listed first? I really don't care on way or the other, just 
curious.


Zope 2 is the more stable, tested release. I don't care what people want 
to "push", end users should get hinted towards the most stable release ;-)


Yeah, seems like no one likes the idea of message boards. My thinking 
was just that when I search for information I always go to Google before 
I'd ever search Zope.org. 


Why is that a problem?

list threads posted online. It just seems like there's all of this 
valuable chatter that goes on about Zope that never gets to the Zope.org 


Why should it be on zope.org?

cheers,

Chris

--
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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce 
[2]).


See Mike D.'s comments on that article which pretty  much sums  
up my rationale and implementation.


Still not convinced, but that's just me. We don't have such a  
deep structure or information density, I would simply put a  
context navigation on the left (or right) for each section but  
not on the homepage, like on this two pages:





Very simple.
Not really. Just the opposite actually, confusing. My design is  
certainly more "simple" than mozilla's. Inconsistent page layout.  
I like sites that have a consistent layout throughout, including  
the homepage. It's confusing when the navigation changes on a page  
by page basis. In my case there's no scheme that the user has to  
*get*.


I agree that the consistency is a hight priority (nevertheless I  
find mozilla.org pretty user friendly).


I also think a *visible* 2nd level navigation is very important for  
orientation. Maybe we agree on the basic question of a random  
visitor on a Web site:


A) Where am I?

B) Where do I come from (or how did I come here)?

C) Where can I go from here?

To answer B the page must either have a navigation system in which  
the context is obvious, or at least a breadcrumb navigation trail.


If you have a visible 2nd (and maybe 3rd) level navigation the fly  
out menus become redundant. Note: I'm not saying that the  
navigation must change on different sections or that the fly out  
menus must be disabled to achieve this.


Tonico


I was actually thinking about the idea of having breadcrumbs. I think  
that may be a good solution that satisfies consistency and keeps the  
clutter down. I agree that B is very important since I'd imagine that  
a lot of user will come from search results pages. Does anyone have  
any numbers on where people come from and navigate to on the current  
zope.org site?




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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tonico Strasser]

Tom Von Lahndorff schrieb:



- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce[2]).


See Mike D.'s comments on that article which pretty  much sums up my 
rationale and implementation.


Still not convinced, but that's just me. We don't have such a deep 
structure or information density, I would simply put a context 
navigation on the left (or right) for each section but not on the 
homepage, like on this two pages:





Very simple.


Not really. Just the opposite actually, confusing. My design is 
certainly more "simple" than mozilla's. Inconsistent page layout. I like 
sites that have a consistent layout throughout, including the homepage. 
It's confusing when the navigation changes on a page by page basis. In 
my case there's no scheme that the user has to *get*.


I agree that the consistency is a hight priority (nevertheless I find 
mozilla.org pretty user friendly).


I also think a *visible* 2nd level navigation is very important for 
orientation. Maybe we agree on the basic question of a random visitor on 
a Web site:


A) Where am I?

B) Where do I come from (or how did I come here)?

C) Where can I go from here?

To answer B the page must either have a navigation system in which the 
context is obvious, or at least a breadcrumb navigation trail.


If you have a visible 2nd (and maybe 3rd) level navigation the fly out 
menus become redundant. Note: I'm not saying that the navigation must 
change on different sections or that the fly out menus must be disabled 
to achieve this.


Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce[2]).


See Mike D.'s comments on that article which pretty  much sums up my 
rationale and implementation.


Still not convinced, but that's just me. We don't have such a deep 
structure or information density, I would simply put a context navigation 
on the left (or right) for each section but not on the homepage, like on 
this two pages:





Very simple.


Not really. Just the opposite actually, confusing. My design is certainly 
more "simple" than mozilla's. Inconsistent page layout. I like sites that 
have a consistent layout throughout, including the homepage. It's confusing 
when the navigation changes on a page by page basis. In my case there's no 
scheme that the user has to *get*.





Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tonico Strasser]

Tom Von Lahndorff schrieb:

- The label of the form fields shouldn't be in the value of the inputs.
  This is bad bad practice IMHO.


There's a simple script to clear the field onFocus. Does it not work for 
you? I'm using it to conserve space.


I just don't like it this way. The script works fine.


- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce[2]).


See Mike D.'s comments on that article which pretty  much sums up my 
rationale and implementation.


Still not convinced, but that's just me. We don't have such a deep 
structure or information density, I would simply put a context 
navigation on the left (or right) for each section but not on the 
homepage, like on this two pages:





Very simple.


Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

- On my System (ubuntu dapper) there is neither Arial nor Helvetica
  available in Firefox, thus the fonts look ugly (see screenshot[1]).

  Could you please add sans-serif at the end of the font list, or
  insert "Bitstream Vera Sans" for GNOME users?


Will do. I have Ubuntu at home as well, just hadn't looked at it yet.  
The screenshot actually doesn't look *that* bad. :)




- The Zope logo is sized to 149 * 60 px while the real image size is
  150 * 60 px. This causes a little distortion in the Z of the logo
  (see screenshot[1]).


Will fix. Hadn't noticed that. Thanks for the heads up.



- The label of the form fields shouldn't be in the value of the  
inputs.

  This is bad bad practice IMHO.


There's a simple script to clear the field onFocus. Does it not work  
for you? I'm using it to conserve space.




- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce[2]).


See Mike D.'s comments on that article which pretty  much sums up my  
rationale and implementation.




- I'm not sure what the the leaves in the header want to communicate.
  If they are just decoration they should be replaced by something  
more

  abstract, I think.


Zope Zen. When I started using Zope about 6 years ago the term was  
used a bit and I thought it was very appropriate. It described well  
the Eureka moments when you realize Zope's smartness and elegance.  
There's something organic that I find about Zope as well, like  
working with it just feels natural. The photo was one I took and I  
think it's just nice and peaceful. I wanted to convey that feeling  
rather than some overbloated M$ or AOL marketing blitz madness like a  
bunch of people gathered around a Dell with wine glasses laughing and  
the tagline "makes your life 20x more fun!" or something too abstract  
and cryptic that makes people think "what the f is this product?".





[1] Screenshot:


[2] Article about "Usability and Fly-Out Menus":




Thanks for the work!

Tonico



Tom Von Lahndorff schrieb:

http://www.modscape.com/zope
03/22/06. Updated the homepage. Added the Zope 3 box. Created a  
download page. Click on "Download Zope" under "Download" in the nav.
Thanks for all of the comments. Keep 'em coming. A couple of  
people had mentioned the background was a bit dark so I've  
lightened it. It seems though that people are pretty happy with  
the general look and feel of the layout. I'd like to start  
drilling down into content at this point and this where I'll  
really need people's feedback, especially editorially. I want to  
try and keep the content simple and not make the assumption that  
visitors know what Zope is and what it does.
I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the  
site like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions  
answered on Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice  
one stop shop for questions and answers for those who may not want  
to subscribe to mailing list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 10:06:24AM +, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
| -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
| Hash: SHA1
| 
| >I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the  
| >site like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions  
| >answered on Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice  
| >one stop shop for questions and answers for those who may not want  
| >to subscribe to mailing list. It would be nice to have that option.
| >http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa
| 
| - -1 on Forums. There is no good forum software around for Zope which  
| is fast and won't bog down the server, and it introduces a big  
| software maintenance/editorial burden.

What about that thing that is used for comments on sqlobject.org (and
python.org too I hear?) that sends comments to SVN? 'commentary' I
think it's called.

http://blog.ianbicking.org/python-doc-comments.html
http://blog.ianbicking.org/doc-comments.html
http://pythonpaste.org/comment/commentary/

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tonico Strasser]

Hi,

here some feedback including personal opinion:

- On my System (ubuntu dapper) there is neither Arial nor Helvetica
  available in Firefox, thus the fonts look ugly (see screenshot[1]).

  Could you please add sans-serif at the end of the font list, or
  insert "Bitstream Vera Sans" for GNOME users?

- The Zope logo is sized to 149 * 60 px while the real image size is
  150 * 60 px. This causes a little distortion in the Z of the logo
  (see screenshot[1]).

- The label of the form fields shouldn't be in the value of the inputs.
  This is bad bad practice IMHO.

- I think fly out menus on Web pages just don't Feel Good (not to
  mention the debatable usability problems they might introduce[2]).

- I'm not sure what the the leaves in the header want to communicate.
  If they are just decoration they should be replaced by something more
  abstract, I think.


[1] Screenshot:


[2] Article about "Usability and Fly-Out Menus":



Thanks for the work!

Tonico



Tom Von Lahndorff schrieb:


http://www.modscape.com/zope

03/22/06. Updated the homepage. Added the Zope 3 box. Created a download 
page. Click on "Download Zope" under "Download" in the nav.


Thanks for all of the comments. Keep 'em coming. A couple of people had 
mentioned the background was a bit dark so I've lightened it. It seems 
though that people are pretty happy with the general look and feel of 
the layout. I'd like to start drilling down into content at this point 
and this where I'll really need people's feedback, especially 
editorially. I want to try and keep the content simple and not make the 
assumption that visitors know what Zope is and what it does.


I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the site 
like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions answered on 
Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice one stop shop for 
questions and answers for those who may not want to subscribe to mailing 
list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

On Mar 23, 2006, at 5:24 AM, Chris Withers wrote:


Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:

http://www.modscape.com/zope
03/22/06. Updated the homepage. Added the Zope 3 box. Created a  
download page. Click on "Download Zope" under "Download" in the nav.


I don't like the big digits for "2" and "3", makes those images  
look really garish.


Looking at it fresh again this morning, they do seem kind of loud.  
I'll work on that.




On the download page, Zope 2 should be above Zope 3.


Really? I thought most people want to push Zope 3. Shouldn't the  
latest release be listed first? I really don't care on way or the  
other, just curious.




Like everything else :-)

I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the  
site like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions  
answered on Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice  
one stop shop for questions and answers for those who may not want  
to subscribe to mailing list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa


No, forums or mailing lists, not both.

Mailing lists are already there, so forums suck ;-)

A decent list of the lists available would rock, as would nice  
searchable archives. However, google and gmane take care of the  
latter requirement, which is hard to implement...


Yeah, seems like no one likes the idea of message boards. My thinking  
was just that when I search for information I always go to Google  
before I'd ever search Zope.org. Most of the time the info comes from  
mailing list threads posted online. It just seems like there's all of  
this valuable chatter that goes on about Zope that never gets to the  
Zope.org site.




Chris

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

fair enough. It was just a thought to have boards but these comments  
make 100% sense. nevermind! :)


On Mar 23, 2006, at 5:06 AM, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:


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I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the  
site like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions  
answered on Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice  
one stop shop for questions and answers for those who may not want  
to subscribe to mailing list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa


- -1 on Forums. There is no good forum software around for Zope  
which is fast and won't bog down the server, and it introduces a  
big software maintenance/editorial burden.


jens

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Chris Withers]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


http://www.modscape.com/zope

03/22/06. Updated the homepage. Added the Zope 3 box. Created a download 
page. Click on "Download Zope" under "Download" in the nav.


I don't like the big digits for "2" and "3", makes those images look 
really garish.


On the download page, Zope 2 should be above Zope 3.

Like everything else :-)

I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the site 
like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions answered on 
Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice one stop shop for 
questions and answers for those who may not want to subscribe to mailing 
list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa


No, forums or mailing lists, not both.

Mailing lists are already there, so forums suck ;-)

A decent list of the lists available would rock, as would nice 
searchable archives. However, google and gmane take care of the latter 
requirement, which is hard to implement...


Chris

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Jens Vagelpohl]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the  
site like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions  
answered on Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice  
one stop shop for questions and answers for those who may not want  
to subscribe to mailing list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa


- -1 on Forums. There is no good forum software around for Zope which  
is fast and won't bog down the server, and it introduces a big  
software maintenance/editorial burden.


jens

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=t+6u
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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Lennart Regebro]

On 3/23/06, Tom Von Lahndorff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the
> site like Apple's support boards.

I don't want both mailing lists and forums unless they can be integrated.

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Re: [ZWeb] V3 Updated

[Michael Haubenwallner]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


http://www.modscape.com/zope

03/22/06. Updated the homepage. Added the Zope 3 box. Created a download 
page. Click on "Download Zope" under "Download" in the nav.


Thanks for all of the comments. Keep 'em coming. A couple of people had 
mentioned the background was a bit dark so I've lightened it. It seems 
though that people are pretty happy with the general look and feel of 
the layout. I'd like to start drilling down into content at this point 
and this where I'll really need people's feedback, especially 
editorially. I want to try and keep the content simple and not make the 
assumption that visitors know what Zope is and what it does.


I was also thinking that there should be a discussion board on the site 
like Apple's support boards. Many of the support questions answered on 
Apple's boards are from other customers. It's a nice one stop shop for 
questions and answers for those who may not want to subscribe to mailing 
list. It would be nice to have that option.

http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa


I'm -1 to almost all you say in this post, but i will stay quiet for a 
week and wait for others feedback.


We have got #zope-web in IRC to discuss open questions.

Michael

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