Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Monday 06 February 2006 01:15, Brad Allen wrote: By new website, do you mean a Zope 3 advocacy site, or a general documentation site? Making a separate site for advocacy seems like a no-brainer (ala Pythonology.org), but the documentation site is another matter. Have the Zope 3 core developers decided to split Zope 3 documentation onto a completely separate site? Maybe this has already been discussed on the Zope3-dev list, which I haven't yet looked at. Any site, any focus would be good. Anything at all is an improvement! :-) We have not decided anything about documentation. The only thing that we have done is develop a tool to generate the static apidoc, which is 98% done (it only has some bugs left). Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Saturday 04 February 2006 14:00, Brad Allen wrote: I won't have any time to volunteer for such a project for several weeks, but I could do it during the upcoming Zope 3 sprint at PyCon (my skill is not great enough to contribute to Zope 3 source code, but I can work on documentation and/or assemble talking points.) Please do! There have been several efforts in the Zope 3 community to get a new Website going. But honestly, its missing an initial ring leader who coordinates the effort. I am supporting everyone who is serious about changing our current situation! Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
At 6:11 AM -0500 2/5/06, Stephan Richter wrote: On Saturday 04 February 2006 14:00, Brad Allen wrote: I won't have any time to volunteer for such a project for several weeks, but I could do it during the upcoming Zope 3 sprint at PyCon (my skill is not great enough to contribute to Zope 3 source code, but I can work on documentation and/or assemble talking points.) Please do! There have been several efforts in the Zope 3 community to get a new Website going. But honestly, its missing an initial ring leader who coordinates the effort. I am supporting everyone who is serious about changing our current situation! Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know how much I can get done in a four day sprint but I'm willing to give it a go. By new website, do you mean a Zope 3 advocacy site, or a general documentation site? Making a separate site for advocacy seems like a no-brainer (ala Pythonology.org), but the documentation site is another matter. Have the Zope 3 core developers decided to split Zope 3 documentation onto a completely separate site? Maybe this has already been discussed on the Zope3-dev list, which I haven't yet looked at. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Here's example of someone who the Zope site has chased off: http://online.effbot.org/#20060203 Excerpt: (And I'm not so sure about Zope, really . It feels stuck in 1998, way too often. Reading zope.org is like discovering that you clicked on the wrong elevator button, and ended up in a basement full of old sales broschures and pre-historic computer manuals. A website that is dynamically-constructed uses an a computer program to provide the dynamism.. That's good to know.) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:40:56 -, Graham Stratton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with those who have said that Zope3 should have its own website. If our aim is to make it clear to people that this is something new, then that site needs a completely different design to the existing Zope site. For as long as Zope3 looks like Zope 2, people are not going to expect to find any major changes. FYI, I just decided django would be a good framework to use if I ever needed an RDBMS driven, less content-centric application by reading http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1. It took me all of five minutes to skim it. Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Martin Aspeli wrote: On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:12:27 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, I feel very strongly that built Zope version 3 and nothing more or less. And I feel that a name change would betray me and my intentions. Well, Joel didn't suggest a name change, he suggested adding a codename to signify that there was something new and exciting, over and beyond Zope 2 and all the stigma attached to it, and spend a bit of time letting the world know that there is a wonderful new framework that has a lot going for it, and you should consider it. I don't see how this could possibly betray anything, and I think the Zope community would have a lot to gain from a little more buzz outside its own confines. You seem to refactor the code all the time, why are you so resitant to refactoring the brand just a little? :-) Not calling it Zope would be a mistake, but how about adding a qualifier to the name. Like microsoft did with Windows NT eg. Zope DR aka Zope Done Right The difference between Z2 and Z3 is really so great that it is not just an upgrade of the same technology. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:17:49 -0800, Benji York [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW: zope3.org and zope3.com are owned by Zope Corp. and I would assume are being transfered to the Foundation. zope3.net and zope3.info appear to be controlled by (different) domain squatters. ICANN mediation would likely find in favor of the ZF if action was taken on those. I find your faith in ICANN disturbing, young jedi. ;) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:42:25 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:01, Martin Aspeli wrote: Philipp W and others have commented on Zope 3's utter lack of marketing (anyone been to zope.org lately?) and how it is probably hurting its adoption. Having just learnt Zope 3 myself, I'm telling others it's wonderful, and then they start talking about web services[1] and wonder what I've been smoking. Very sad. I am pretty sure there is a SOAP implementation for Zope 3 and it is in svn.zope.org. You missed my point (unless that was dry humour)... No-one who doesn't already read this list has heard of Zope 3 (as in, they understand what it's all about, and they understand the distinction between Zope 2 and Zope 3) and very few have heard of Zope in general. They have, however, seen all the Ruby-on-Rails demos and are talking about it all the time. Is Ruby-on-Rails a better framework than Zope 3? Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:48, Martin Aspeli wrote: I am pretty sure there is a SOAP implementation for Zope 3 and it is in svn.zope.org. You missed my point (unless that was dry humour)... With all the discussion about the Cubed project today, I guess I have not much humor left in me. ;-) No-one who doesn't already read this list has heard of Zope 3 (as in, they understand what it's all about, and they understand the distinction between Zope 2 and Zope 3) and very few have heard of Zope in general. They have, however, seen all the Ruby-on-Rails demos and are talking about it all the time. Yeah, but honestly I don't care. If people choose a technology on name recognition and not on technical merit, then it is their bad. However, I question the RoR hype. I wonder whether big companies seriously considering it; it has absolutely no track record. Zope 2 (and even 3) on the other hand is deployed on many huge sites and the risk of deploying it is low. Even deploying Zope 3 is a smaller risk than RoR. Is Ruby-on-Rails a better framework than Zope 3? I do not know. I have not looked at it, but I doubt it. There is a lot of experience in Zope 3. Also some users have reported coming back from RoR. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:12:27 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, I feel very strongly that built Zope version 3 and nothing more or less. And I feel that a name change would betray me and my intentions. Well, Joel didn't suggest a name change, he suggested adding a codename to signify that there was something new and exciting, over and beyond Zope 2 and all the stigma attached to it, and spend a bit of time letting the world know that there is a wonderful new framework that has a lot going for it, and you should consider it. I don't see how this could possibly betray anything, and I think the Zope community would have a lot to gain from a little more buzz outside its own confines. You seem to refactor the code all the time, why are you so resitant to refactoring the brand just a little? :-) Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu February 2 2006 16:05, Stephan Richter wrote: Yeah, but honestly I don't care. If people choose a technology on name recognition and not on technical merit, then it is their bad. However, I question the RoR hype. I wonder whether big companies seriously considering it; it has absolutely no track record. Zope 2 (and even 3) on the other hand is deployed on many huge sites and the risk of deploying it is low. Even deploying Zope 3 is a smaller risk than RoR. It's hard to choose Zope 3 based on technical merit when it's not well-known that it's so different than the Zope 2 merits they've already decided they didn't like. I've been using Zope since 1998, mostly because I loved Python programming and it just fit me. I was excited to see Zope 3 in the works a few years ago, but frankly I didn't understand half of what the developers were talking about when they discussed what it was going to look like; it was over my head (and still is a bit), but I could tell it would be a different beast. I figured I'd wait and see and happily continue using Zope 2. Today, I see the mess that a Zope 2 site can turn in to, so I started looking at Zope 3 again. The release announcements say it's ready for production use, but the website has no promotion of it whatsoever. You have to dig several levels deep to see any mention that it's not just a new version of Zope. The downloads page makes it look like nothing more than an upgrade and the one Zope 3 link under Developers says the wiki is for Zope 3 development itself, not for those that want to use it. I do have Richter's book (thank you, Stephan) and Philipp's book is on its way, but I'm having trouble finding any material online that isn't a hodge-podge of years old development notes. I know Zope 3 is young, but this surprises me. I would think ZC would at least want to mention their new production-ready killer app on the front page, and perhaps include *something* in the What is Zope? page. But there's not one word about Zope 3's new technical merits. There must be a good reason for this. I know they didn't spend all this time building a great open source product for members-only. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they don't want to promote it while Zope 2 product compatibility isn't there yet. With so many nice Zope 2 products around, I can see new users getting frustrated that none of them work in Zope 3. Once some major Zope 2 products work in Zope 3, maybe things will change. At any rate, I look forward to learning about Zope 3. I hope it's as fun (or more) to work with as Zope 2 has been. -- Ron ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Ron Bickers wrote: Today, I see the mess that a Zope 2 site can turn in to, so I started looking at Zope 3 again. The release announcements say it's ready for production use, but the website has no promotion of it whatsoever. You have to dig several levels deep to see any mention that it's not just a new version of Zope. The downloads page makes it look like nothing more than an upgrade and the one Zope 3 link under Developers says the wiki is for Zope 3 development itself, not for those that want to use it. I do have Richter's book (thank you, Stephan) and Philipp's book is on its way, but I'm having trouble finding any material online that isn't a hodge-podge of years old development notes. To continue your rant, I think most people expect production-ready software to have a large support network around it. There's certainly commercial support for Zope 3, but that doesn't count, because the claim that Zope 3 is production-ready is made in reference to only the open source software, not commercial add-ons. So I think it's misleading to call Zope 3 production-ready until we organize better. I can't help but think the first step to making Zope 3 truly production-ready is to put together a pretty web site about Zope 3. It shouldn't make many references to Zope 2. It should have a Zero to Zope 3 in Ten Minutes article. It should have a link to online API docs. Its primary focus should be on attracting new people. Whoever designs such a site needs good design skills and thick skin. It can't be designed by committee, but the designer should solicit feedback. (Now, I don't have a lot of design skill, but I have noticed that every revision of zope.org has chosen most of its colors from a palette of black, white, and blue. My web log suffers the same malady! I've also noticed recently that most attractive web sites choose two fairly saturated colors and balance and vary them.) There must be a good reason for this. I know they didn't spend all this time building a great open source product for members-only. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they don't want to promote it while Zope 2 product compatibility isn't there yet. With so many nice Zope 2 products around, I can see new users getting frustrated that none of them work in Zope 3. Once some major Zope 2 products work in Zope 3, maybe things will change. It's probably in ZC's best interest to wait for Zope 2 compatibility before promoting Zope 3 heavily, since ZC has a lot of Zope 2 customers. But it's in the Zope community's best interest to promote Zope 3 right now, while the competition is heating up. Shane ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
