Ode, Thanks for the interesting reply. I had seen your references to Frank Key before but I did not make the connection to the Efficiency chart. Trying to look into the issue further turned up some fascinating information. For example, here is a later comment made by the person who posted the link to the chart:
"The ionic version might be best for throat, sinus and other applications you mention - IF you use the Utopia Silver ionic silver - but the colloidal version works well too because it contains about 25-30% ionic silver and the ultra small particles still give more surface area than most purely ionic products. Just so you know, it is ionic silver that actually works - not colloidal silver. The value of having the silver initially in colloidal form is to get it past the stomach acids in the digestion process. Colloidal silver converts to ionic upon contact with single cell pathogens and at the cellular level where needed." So, it is the ionic silver that is effective and the colloidal silver converts to ionic upon contact with single cell pathogens. But as I understand it, the issue with ionic silver is that the HCl in the stomach converts the ionic silver to silver chloride which is insoluble and the silver chloride molecule is to large to pass through the intestinal wall into the bloodstream. I found that this too is controversial, with one theory that ammonia created in the body can convert the silver chloride into another form of silver that is adsorbable into the body. This led to a webpage that resurrects some silver list message exchanges back in 2001 that provide a window into some times when the silver list hosted some very controversial and interesting people, many of which we are fortunate to still have available for counsel. One statement I found especially intriguing was found at http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/Assets/Images/Pdf/Ammonia%20Hypothesis%20o f%20Ionic%20Silver%20Utility%20In%20Vivo.pdf and I quote: "The following is abstracted from an online debate between Francis Key, Principal Scientist and Founder, Colloidal Science Laboratory, New Jersey, USA, who holds that ionic silver cannot possibly have anti-microbial utility in the human body, and Stuart Thomson, Director and Founder, the Gaia Research Institute, Knysna, Republic of South Africa, who argues that ionic silver is indeed so active via ammonia and metalloprotein mechanisms. Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike Devour, a self-proclaimed libertarian and owner of the Silver List, promptly banned Stuart from further participation on the forum for life. Having no permission to reproduce the entire debate, which was expunged from the Silver List archive database, Stuart has been able to reproduce only his contribution, which fortunately used a format quoting competitor's contentious statements before demolishing them, so rendering such statements effectively dual intellectual property." Being ignorant on the subject, I have no opinion except to say that that must have been quite an interesting period. I wish I could take you and some of the other silver gurus to lunch and hear some of the stories you must have. But back to the issue. I also found the following: "Below I will quote directly from an article titled "Comparative Analysis Study Shows Ionic Silver to Be Up to 10,000 Times More Effective Than Particulate Colloidal Silver: the End of the Great Particulate vs. Ionic Silver Debate," written by former U.S. Army medic by R.D. Todd: "The results were astonishing! With or without the HCl mixture added, the Staphylococcus cultures (both S-1 and S-2) on the plates were virtually eradicated in just four minutes when treated with ionic silver. But the culture plates treated with the so-called "true colloid" particulate silver showed only a slight reduction in the bacterial count! The principal conclusions from the study are as follows: * Before being treated with HCl, the ionic species of silver achieves total kill in four minutes, and is at least 100 times more potent than the particulate form of silver. * The particulate form of silver, which does contain a small amount of silver-ions, loses almost all its antibacterial potency when the ionic silver component is removed (a result of the reaction to HCl). * Comparative antibacterial potency loss in ionic-silver, due to the same HCl treatment, is negligible. * After being treated with HCl, under the same experimental conditions, the ionic-silver is now shown to be a whopping 10,000 times more potent than the particulate silver. The results of this study clearly show that ionic species of silver dramatically outperformed the particulate species of silver. In fact, it was not even close!" I did a search on the study and the Army medic R. D. Todd and found nothing but was informed that if I bought a 500 page book the study would be provided in full detail in the book. Question, does anyone know anything about the study and it's validity? Thanks, Styeve N -----Original Message----- From: Ode Coyote [mailto:odecoy...@alltel.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 6:23 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CS>CS Efficiency Measurements Who says it's low? Frank Key doesn't say it's low, just that he thinks it's a colloid [colloidal portion] doing the job, meaning, the job is getting done.....based on what he DOESN'T say he found after finding no ionic silver in the bloodstream with an ion selective probe. ie He says what he didn't find, but not what he did find. Other theories indicate that ionic silver may convert to a colloid when exposed to body chemistry. If what Frank DID find confirms that, he has every reason to not say so. It's certainly not his job to convince us that EIS [CS] is the same as his product in the end, using a different means to get that way. Furthermore, the efficiency charts are based on particle sizes, not ions which are a whole lot smaller that even his excellent equipment can detect. Based on that premise, the strongest we CAN make is somewhere around 4 PPM "colloidal" and ignores the presence of 85 to 97 % of the silver that's there. On top of all that, there is no determination of what the particles that can be detected, are. The FAQ on taste: "Those with more sensitive taste buds will taste a slight metallic taste owing to the small amount of ionic silver present in MesoSilver. It is not unusual for new users of MesoSilver to report it is tasteless and weeks or months later to report a metallic taste and wonder why the taste has changed over time. In reality the taste has not changed over time but the users taste buds have gotten more sensitive over time from using MesoSilver. " My experiments with making EIS in an "alkaline water generator" that keeps ions and anions separate indicate that silver ions have no flavor and that the flavor is due to the OH anions made along with the silver ions in the normal CS generator. Various foods will either mask or accentuate that flavor. Ode -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour <mdev...@eskimo.com>
