David Miller wrote:
> The ones who ignore personal responsibility for
> sin, in my opinion, are those who cop-out and
> say that we will always sin and there is nothing
> that we can do about it until Jesus comes back.
Glenn wrote:
> This very statement is why I think people are blinded
> to this perfection doctrine. The dots don't connect.
> It has been implied over and over that those who
> don't believe in the perfection doctrine are soft on sin.
You are creating an implication that has not been made. Orthodox Jews do
not believe in the perfection doctrine, but I certainly do not consider them
to be soft on sin. I know many legalistic Christians who do not believe in
any concept of Christian perfection who are very hard on sin. Whether or
not they believe in some perfection doctrine has nothing to do with whether
I consider them soft on sin.
Glenn - OK, thanks for the explanation.
The ones who are soft on sin are those who
overemphasize grace. I've known some to say I'm headed to hell fire because
I testify that Jesus sets men free of sin. They say that I believe in
Lordship doctrine, and they say that anybody who makes Jesus Christ their
Lord is headed to hell because they do not understand grace.
Glenn - I have not met anyone like you describe above. What is the difference in your perfect doctrine and the Lordship doctrine. I understand the Lordship doctrine teaches you much not only make Jesus your Savior but also be totally committed to Him as your Lord, or you won't go to heaven. Again, what is your understanding of the Lordship doctrine and the perfection doctrine?
So the implication I make in my statements have nothing to do with whether
or not someone believes some "perfection doctrine" which is an appellation
which you have created. The implication is simply that some people
emphasize grace so much that they deny the promises of Scripture and the
doctrine of Christ.
Glenn wrote:
> I BELIEVE THE PERFECTION DOCTRINE
> IS SOFT ON GRACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How so? We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory,
and that only by grace can a person be saved, and that only by grace may a
person be empowered by the Spirit to live above sin. Grace is an
indespensible part of my teaching on Christian perfection, so how is that
soft on grace? I even teach that a person who continues to sin while
expressing true faith in Jesus Christ can be saved by grace. I think you
are making wild accusations and I must ask, why?
Glenn - It seems you are saying that one has to be perfect to go to heaven. That's why I said that is soft on grace. However, from this post, I understand you don't believe that.
Glenn wrote:
> Show me a Bible verse that says if a person doesn't
> believe the perfect doctrine, that person is in sin!!!!!
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father
and the Son." (2Jo 1:9)
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is
born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he
cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1Jo 3:7-9)
Glenn - Now you are way off here. These verses don't teach anything about having to believe (academic belief) the perfection doctrine in order to not be in sin.
Glenn wrote:
> You ask me if I am uncomfortable when discussing
> the perfection doctrine.
No, not exactly. I asked you if the teaching that believers can be so
filled with God's grace that they do not sin again makes you uncomfortable.
In other words, do you get uncomfortable when you hear this teaching?
Glenn wrote:
> NOT at all!!!! ... I have not told you how this doctrine
> makes me feel, but I am going to tell you now.
> IT MAKES ME SICK AS I SEE THE DOCTRINE
> AS PHARISEEISM.
Well, I guess that is an admission then that it does make you uncomfortable.
Glenn - It makes me angry at Phariseeism. Big time difference.
Glenn wrote:
> Why? JUDGING PEOPLE'S MOTIVES. THIS
> IS PRIDE. I hate sin. Since pride is sin, I hate pride.
> The sin of pride is insidious. If someone is prideful
> they don't know they are prideful. It is an insidious sin.
So I am filled with pride because I believe that Jesus was manifested to
take away my sins? Because I testify to experience Christ taking away my
sin, then I am filled with pride? Be careful Glenn.
Glenn - This is a switch-a-rue. I didn't say, filled with pride because you testify to experience Christ taking away your sin. I said I see people filled with pride who judge other's motives. That's how I see it. If I am right, listen. If I am wrong, forget it.
Glenn wrote:
> Many are sick and tired of seeing church
> members living like sinners. I AM TOO!
Do you excuse those who fall into sin by saying that everyone does it?
Glenn - ABSOLUTELY not!
Glenn wrote:
> However, the perfection doctrine is not the answer
> to the problem.
Jesus Christ is the answer to the problem. I am not teaching that some
doctrine of perfection is the answer to the problem. I simply testify that
Jesus Christ was manifested to take away our sin, and in him is no sin. He
that is born of God does not sin. Hallelujah! Jesus is the answer to the
problem of sin.
Glenn wrote:
> Phariseeism is sin too.
Pharisees never believed that men could live without sin. Phariseeism is
says every person has broken the law at some time. Talk to Orthodox Jews,
and they will tell you, that they TRY to keep the 613 commandments, but
nobody has done it perfectly. That's why Paul's arguments were so strong,
because he built upon this Pharisaical admission.
Glenn - I am not talking Phariseeism attitudes of pride and being right on all the jots and tittles.
Glenn wrote:
> Christians can't help it but sin all the time
> is extremism. To say Christians are perfect
> is extremism.
Most Christians are not perfect, but to say that nobody can be perfect just
because you are not perfect is what I consider pride. I would have no
problem with you just saying that you are not perfect. But when you say
that nobody is perfect, that everybody in Christ will sin at some point,
that nobody has Christ living within them and through them all the time,
when someone like Gary says everyone has the ways of Satan within them
fighting against the Holy Spirit and that they yield to Satan at times,
well, that is what I consider pride. You can't know who is perfect or not
when you are not perfect yourself, and to say that others cannot attain to
what you have not attained is Phariseeism for sure.
Glenn - Again I don't understand why I would have to be perfect to see sin or to see perfection. I am not perfect but I see a perfect Christ. I am not perfect but I see a sinful church.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
