Izzy wrote: > I have a hard time with understanding all this. It seems that we are > taught that "all you have to do is believe that Jesus is Savior, and > accept Him, and you get a free ticket to heaven...nothing else matters. > You can be as sinful as you want to and still get into heaven." > > This seems ridiculous to me! If having "faith" in Jesus just means > believing that He is the son of God the Father--even demons believe > this, and they tremble! So what does "saving faith" mean??? Obviously > not just that. > > It seems that really "believing" or "having faith in Jesus" means more > than just head knowledge, but must have an effect upon US in how we > behave, as well as how we believe. "Faith without works (righteous > behavior) is dead!" > > It seems that "faith" and "works" are as inseparable as our body and > spirit. If our body exists without our spirit, we are dead. If our > spirit exists without our body we are dead. Just the same way, if our > works exist without our faith in Christ, we are dead. And if our faith > in Christ exists without our works, we are dead. > > Does that make sense so far? > > If so, then why are our "works" and our "salvation" not related? > Obviously we must depend upon the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to > atone for our sins. That was the whole reason for His incarnation. But > at what point does our sin get so grievous that His sacrifice no longer > atones for it? Ever? At what point does the fact of our sin point out > that we really DO NOT believe in Him? > > That's where it gets muddy for me. How can anyone walk in continual, > grievous sin and still be destined for heaven, regardless of the atoning > blood of Christ? Doesn't their sinful life show that Jesus is not their > Lord, and therefore they have no faith in Him? They just "talk the talk, > but don't walk the walk." Didn't Jesus make it clear that hypocrites > will not enter the Kingdom? Can you shed any light on this?
I think you are on the right track. Clearly, someone who continues to sin will cross the line into apostasy if the sin is not dealt with. On the other hand, grace does cover sin, and justification is of faith and not of works. Paul taught that where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. But exactly how does that grace operate? Is it a free ticket to sin and yet be saved? Certainly not. The grace is given more abundantly in order that the person might repent and come fully into Christ's Spirit. The reason I clarified that it is possible for a person to be saved who has not yet experienced complete freedom from sin is because the atonment provides for many things, but people receive only that which they believe for. Example: some people believe that healing is in the atonment, yet others are not aware of it, or believe that it is not included in the atonement. Yet those who do not see healing in the atonement might believe that forgiveness comes through the atonement. Does God withhold forgiveness because the person does not believe in healing being provided in the atonement? Certainly not. God meets people according to their faith. In the same way, a person might be taught incorrectly that they will always sin, yet they might be taught that God forgives them and that their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. I think such a person might find justification. The man Jesus speaks about who beat his chest and said, "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner" may not have got up thinking he would never sin again. Yet, he may touch God and receive grace and forgiveness for his past sin. When that happens, the Spirit is moving upon the person, to lead him into works of righteousness. The Spirit leads the person to never sin again. But the person might turn to his flesh instead of the Spirit, and especially because of false teaching, he may stumble into sin again and again and again. Does that mean that the person is completely cut off from God when he turns to God again in a spirit of humility seeking forgiveness yet again? Certainly not. Such a person continues to have access to the throne of grace and can receive forgiveness. I agree with you that to emphasize the existence of this kind of grace and forgiveness is extremely dangerous. It does convey to many that they have a license to sin. I meet such people all the time when I preach on campus. I declare holiness, and such Christians rise up against the preaching of holiness because they think they are saved. They will cuss with every four letter word imagineable, and declare their right to fornicate and get drunk on weekends. They say that Jesus saves them because it is by grace and not of works, and that anyone who thinks they have to stop sinning in order for Jesus to save them is a hypocritical Pharisee. They have been brainwashed by the "grace through faith alone" teachers. Notice what Jesus taught in Mat. 5:19. I think this shows how there are two classes of believers in the kingdom of heaven. There are the "Christian perfectionists" if you want to use Glenn's terminology (I don't like that label, but we will go with it for now for the sake of conversation), and there are the "saved by grace through faith only" Christians. "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:19) It is noteworthy that he plainly includes these who break the least commandments and teach men that they will break them as being IN the kingdom of heaven. This is especially noteworthy when you consider that Jesus taught that John the Baptist was not in the kingdom of heaven at all. So while we understand that true faith will result in good works, and that sin is defiling such that those who continue in sin will be drawn away from the Lord, it also is true that justification comes through faith without works, and that grace does indeed abound the more that sin abounds. Do my comments help any? Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
