On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:37:50 -0400 "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I am very glad that G asked you to clarify what I had sent. You are not on track at all. The watchmaker and clock concept is pure deism. That of a Creator who creates and then steps back out of reach of His creation. His creation then runs self-sufficiently apart from the Creator. There is no continuing relation between the watchmaker and the clock. What you missed in my definition of divine and contingent order is that creation is 'upheld by its Creator' and that it 'relies upon Jesus Christ in Whom all things move and have their being.'
jt: Now you are sounding like the Oneness or "Jesus Only" people Jonathan... It is a world that has all the ability to exist without direct intervention by God but is also in a relationship with its Creator Who sustains it. In this relationship God can at any time intervene. jt: The above is a little on the pantheistic side, are you saying a transcendent Spirit is in relationship with His Creation ie the Universe? Who is the Jesus that Lance, Baxter and I follow? He is the eternal Son of God who before the foundation of the world adopted us to be part of the relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit. jt: God is ONE Jonathan and where is the above action described in scripture? I know Jesus is the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world so there could be a people called The Church who are found "in Him" at the end but Father, Son, and Spirit are hardly three people who need to work on relationship. Against the lie of separation that Satan administered in the Fall, Jesus clothed Himself with our humanity, cleansed it from within, was killed and rose from the dead to His Father with us carefully held in His hands. He now sits at the right hand of His Father continually interceding for us. jt: The above scenario is a figment of someone's vivid imagination Jonathan, and what you call "the lie of separation" is our present day reality. In fact the majority of the populace are living with a breach between themselves and God, themselves and others, themselves with themselves. There is little or no real peace in this world in case you've not noticed recently. We in turn participate in what He did for us. jt: How do we participate Jonathan? From what you write it would appear that all we have to do is "show up" In another email you asked me what is an overcomer. The only overcomer is Jesus Christ. In all that He overcomes, we overcome. I never overcome anything that He does not overcome first. An overcomer is one who trusts in the work and person of Jesus Christ. jt: So we don't have any responsibility at all? It's ALL Him? We don't need any works, we just trust in His works? What if we are trusting in the lie? judyt > > Jonathan > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:31 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm > > > Hi G: > Jonathan wrote: A contingent universe is one that is based upon and > upheld > by its Creator. It is created to run self-sufficiently but relies > upon > Jesus Christ in whom all things move and have their being. > > jt: I understand what he describes as something akin to the > watchmaker and > clock concept that came from "enlightenment thinking" ie "running > self-sufficiently" I've never been able to figure out which Jesus > Jonathan, > Lance, and Baxter Kruger follow but I don't believe He is the same > as the > one I know. > > judyt > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004 > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
