Jonathan as JH.
Jonathan Hughes -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judith H Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:37:50 -0400 "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I am very glad that G asked you to clarify what I had sent. You are not on track at all. The watchmaker and clock concept is pure deism. That of a Creator who creates and then steps back out of reach of His creation. His creation then runs self-sufficiently apart from the Creator. There is no continuing relation between the watchmaker and the clock. What you missed in my definition of divine and contingent order is that creation is 'upheld by its Creator' and that it 'relies upon Jesus Christ in Whom all things move and have their being.' jt: Now you are sounding like the Oneness or "Jesus Only" people Jonathan... JH: Here is what Paul says: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:16-17 It gave the Father pleasure to have all things created through His Son. No Oneness or Jesus Only here. Paul says that all things hold together in Jesus Christ. He is refering to creation. It is a world that has all the ability to exist without direct intervention by God but is also in a relationship with its Creator Who sustains it. In this relationship God can at any time intervene. jt: The above is a little on the pantheistic side, are you saying a transcendent Spirit is in relationship with His Creation ie the Universe? JH: What I am saying is what Paul says above in Col 1:16-17. When you understand that God upholds creation, that without Him we and the earth would cease to exist you would start to understand why Christians should be the number one force in supporting our environment. Pantheism is saying Jesus is the rock. I am saying the rock continues to exist only because Jesus upholds it. Who is the Jesus that Lance, Baxter and I follow? He is the eternal Son of God who before the foundation of the world adopted us to be part of the relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit. jt: God is ONE Jonathan and where is the above action described in scripture? I know Jesus is the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world so there could be a people called The Church who are found "in Him" at the end but Father, Son, and Spirit are hardly three people who need to work on relationship. JH: God is one. The action above is described in the first chapter of Ephesians. Father, Son and Spirit do not have to 'work on relationship'. They are relationship. They define relationality. They have invited you to join that relationship. God is not some faceless omnibeing. Against the lie of separation that Satan administered in the Fall, Jesus clothed Himself with our humanity, cleansed it from within, was killed and rose from the dead to His Father with us carefully held in His hands. He now sits at the right hand of His Father continually interceding for us. jt: The above scenario is a figment of someone's vivid imagination Jonathan, and what you call "the lie of separation" is our present day reality. In fact the majority of the populace are living with a breach between themselves and God, themselves and others, themselves with themselves. There is little or no real peace in this world in case you've not noticed recently. JH: The lie of separation is what the serpent convinced Adam and Eve of. Look Eve, you are not what God says you are. Eat this and you will really be what you want. Judy, you are eatting the fruit from the serpent. You have been brainwashed into believing that God is against you and that you must work your way back to Him. We in turn participate in what He did for us. jt: How do we participate Jonathan? From what you write it would appear that all we have to do is "show up" JH: We participate by repentance, prayer, walking in the Spirit, confession, the sacraments, good works, worship etc. What we are participating in is Jesus' complete and perfect work. In another email you asked me what is an overcomer. The only overcomer is Jesus Christ. In all that He overcomes, we overcome. I never overcome anything that He does not overcome first. An overcomer is one who trusts in the work and person of Jesus Christ. jt: So we don't have any responsibility at all? It's ALL Him? We don't need any works, we just trust in His works? What if we are trusting in the lie? Judyt JH: What we have is a response. Our response will include works. Our works are only effective in as much as they take into consideration the only One who actually worked. Our works mean nothing unless they are submitted under the work of Jesus Christ. We do not trust in the works; we trust in the Person. Out of curiousity why would it being 'ALL Him' be anathema to you? Why do you put so much weight on what you do instead of what Christ has done? Why don't you want to give all glory to Jesus Christ? This e-mail and any attachments contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Thank you for your cooperation in connection with the above. Ce courriel ainsi que tous les documents sây rattachant contiennent de lâinformation confidentielle et privilÃgiÃe. Si vous nâÃtes pas le destinataire visÃ, s.v.p. en informer immÃdiatement son expÃditeur par retour de courriel, effacer le message et dÃtruire toute copie (Ãlectronique ou autre). Toute diffusion ou utilisation de cette information par une personne autre que le destinataire visà est interdite et peut Ãtre illÃgale. Merci de votre coopÃration relativement au message susmentionnÃ. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
