Well I may live in a fantasy world, but that is entirely beside the point.
When I say these things will be discovered, that's exactly what you are
saying happened years ago. These things will always be discovered, because
they are unhidable. In your example the Uzbek Wikipedians have learned to
stay off certain pages in order to coexist with Uzbek authorities. Similar
coping strategies exist on other projects. It doesn't mean the entire Uzbek
encyclopedia is untrustworthy or that the wiki model is at fault. The trail
of tears is in the talk pages. I don't see anything wrong with making such
concessions, since after discovery it becomes public record and everyone
knows it anyway. What I don't understand is what you are trying to say. If
you are proposing something, just come out and propose it instead of
complaining about what goes on in certain projects and jumping from one
scare tactic to another.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Granted, you could
> > get past the 10,000 article startup requirement somehow and then start
> > creating lots of POV articles, but once you do this you will soon be
> > discovered. There is just no way to hide it.
>
>
>
> Jane, you're living in a fantasy world. We already have Wikipedias with
> these POV articles. They've been "discovered" long ago, and it makes zero
> difference.
>
> See e.g. the hagiography of the Uzbek President in the Uzbek Wikipedia[1]
> (him of the boiled dissidents). It hails him as the best thing since sliced
> bread.
>
> Then see what Human Rights organisations have to say about his regime[2],
> or compare the English Wikipedia article.[3]
>
> That train left the station a long time ago. The wiki model does *not* work
> in these contexts.
>
> [1]
>
> https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=uz&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fuz.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIslom_Karimov&sandbox=1
> [2] https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/uzbekistan
> [3]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_Karimov#Human_rights_and_press_freedom
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Lilburne <
> lilbu...@tygers-of-wrath.net
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 28/12/2015 18:00, Jane Darnell wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> All I said is that the wiki way works, that's all. You can't hide it
> > > when
> > > >> someone tries to take over a project, and that is the reason we
> > > shouldn't
> > > >> try to anticipate that with convoluted strategies. "Assume Good
> Faith"
> > > >> will
> > > >> always win out over any strange misguided takeover strategy, which
> is
> > > why
> > > >> governments that intend to do such things choose nowadays to just
> > block
> > > >> wikimedia altogether. It is not our wake-up call to take, but that
> of
> > > the
> > > >> Kazakh people.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > Facebook showed the other year that it could manipulate people by
> what
> > it
> > > > showed them in their feeds.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10932534/Facebook-conducted-secret-psychology-experiment-on-users-emotions.html
> > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28051930
> > > >
> > > > They didn't do this for fun, they did it to show their clients
> > > > (advertisers, governments) that they could manipulate millions of
> > people.
> > > > You only need a small push in one direction or another to influence a
> > > large
> > > > population. Doesn't matter if the push is to buy a particular soap,
> > vote
> > > > one way or another, or how you see a particular minority, or issue.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.networkworld.com/article/2450825/big-data-business-intelligence/facebooks-icky-psychology-experiment-is-actually-business-as-usual.html
> > > >
> > > > Do it to a naively trusted source and you have a triple word score
> > > > jackpot^H^H^Hboot.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought Epstein's and Robertson's paper, "The search engine
> > manipulation
> > > effect (SEME) and its possible impact on the outcomes of elections",
> was
> > > very interesting as well:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/how-google-could-rig-the-2016-election-121548
> > >
> > > http://www.pnas.org/content/112/33/E4512.abstract
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well the chances of me being firebombed while on vacation in the
> states
> > > are
> > > > probably higher than me being firebombed for editing Wikipedia, but
> > that
> > > > still doesn't mean we need to worry about changing the wiki model. I
> > > guess
> > > > I have lost the thread of your point entirely now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To be honest, I don't think you had ever gotten hold of it in the first
> > > place. To me, you seem to live in a very sheltered and naive world.
> > >
> > > If we have reports of Wikipedians being tortured in Azerbaijan (and
> there
> > > seems to have been some truth to these reports, as the sysop named in
> > them
> > > was globally blocked by the WMF a short while later[1]), you should be
> > able
> > > to understand that it is not quite as easy to live the wiki way there
> as
> > it
> > > is in your country, and that some of the assumptions you have formed
> > based
> > > on your own experiences of the wiki model may not hold in other
> locales.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Irada&diff=12421543&oldid=7322889
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