Pe sâmbătă, 7 septembrie 2019, Adrian Raddatz <ajradd...@gmail.com> a scris:
> I think it's a fine idea. I know that nobody knows what "Wikimedia means", > and see value to moving at least the Foundation's name towards a more > recognizable brand. > > I also see valid points being raised from the community, such as the > distinction between Wikipedia and WikiBooks, -Versity, -Source, etc. Those > projects are often very different from Wikipedia, and further work should > be done to understand the impacts on brand perception if those very > different projects use a more similar name. But overall, I think the idea > is good. > > What is bad is that this is another top-down change being apparently made > entirely by WMF staff. The question is "how should we implement this idea > that we have already come up with, and will implement anyway"? The question > should have been brought forward much earlier in the form of "how can we > improve our brand awareness". This idea could have been put forward and > refined as part of that collaborative process. Or at least that's how it > should have been done if the WMF cares about being a service organization. > > > I would say that it was pretty clear the change will happen :) > No need to mock me based on my apparent position on the issue. I was not mocking you. Maybe ":)" was not the most appropriate emoticon in the context, but when the WMF comes up with such grand plans the default line of thought should be the change will happen unless there is a huge push back from the community. In this case, the push back has been mild at best. And I really > don't see how it is desirable that the Foundation is willing to push ideas > through without community support. I have come to realize that what the community *thinks* about our users and the reality can be a world apart. We are also adverse to change (by design, mostly). These things mean that sometimes courageous ideas will need to be pushed in spite of the vocal opposition of some particularly conservative members of the community. Also, as I said, in this particular case the feedback has not been clearly negative, so I would not call the process as being "without community support". P > Again, are they a top-down governance > organization, or a service organization aimed at supporting and empowering > the editing community and readership? Unfortunately right now more of the former. There is a significant number of employees that simply don't understand why they should wait for and listen to community feedback. But employees can be replaced if there is enough will. The real danger comes from the strategy recommendations that explicitly ask for more coordination from the wmf regarding a range of subjects. Strainu > > Adrian Raddatz > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:05 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > I think a rebranding to Wikipedia is the best branding option but, at the > > same time, I aknowledge that this can cause a wide variety of problems to > > so many people inside our community that doing it without a plan to give > > safety (not only legal, as their lives could be compromised) is a bigger > > danger than the benefits it causes. > > > > > > > > 2019 ira. 6 10:41 PM erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Isaac Olatunde < > > reachout2is...@gmail.com>): > > > > We sometimes spend several minutes trying to explain to potentials > partners > > the difference between Wikipedia and Wikimedia and the relationship > between > > them. > > > > In most cases we just use "Wikipedia" so as to not confuse them. > > > > Of course some people would share an opposing view for many reasons but I > > do think this rebranding is important. > > > > Regards > > > > Isaac > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 9:29 PM Strainu <strain...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Pe vineri, 6 septembrie 2019, Adrian Raddatz <ajradd...@gmail.com> a > > > scris: > > > > > > > Yet another potentially good idea from the Foundation killed by the > > usual > > > > atrocious style of stakeholder management. No benefits framed for the > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no indication that this change is coming from the bottom up, > > > > > > > > > Huh? Have you seriously never seen people asking the difference between > > > Wikipedia and Wikimedia or wiki(m|p) edians complaining about how hard > it > > > is to explain that difference? > > > > > > This change is very much a bottom up one, even if it is pushed by the > WMF > > > using corporate procedures rather than by the community using an RfC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > no > > > > assurance that this change happens or not based on the results of the > > > > consultation. > > > > > > > > > I would say that it was pretty clear the change will happen :) > > > > > > Strainu > > > > > > > > > > > You can't figure out the benefits to the community - your key > > stakeholder > > > > group - entirely as part of the consultation. You need to frame the > > > > consultation as figuring out how to achieve pre-identified benefits > to > > > your > > > > stakeholders in the optimal way. You should also try to get buy-in > from > > > key > > > > community groups *before* you start consulting, and use them as part > of > > > the > > > > consultation, so it stops being Foundation vs. the community and > turns > > > into > > > > the Foundation collaboratively supporting community-led ideas. > > > > > > > > It pains me to see this being done poorly, time and time again. > > > > > > > > Adrian Raddatz > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > After the last disastrous WMF intervention in Wikipedia - Framgate > - > > I > > > > > believe the timing is just perfect for the WMF to go forward with > > this > > > > fit > > > > > of creativity of branding themselves as the "Wikipedia Foundation". > > > > > > > > > > It's one after another, and never stops. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Paulo > > > > > > > > > > Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sexta, > 6/09/2019 > > > > à(s) > > > > > 18:25: > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Fae. I strongly oppose the proposal, and I somehow > > used > > > to > > > > > > assume that our opinion would be asked in a structured way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Yaroslav > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:03 PM Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the WMF is going to make statements that are not derived > from > > > all > > > > > > > the demonstrable facts, perhaps the community should now > respond > > > with > > > > > > > a completely unambiguous RFC on meta so there can be no doubt? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something along the lines of: > > > > > > > "The WMF have employed Wolff Olins for rebranding advice, and > > they > > > > > > > recommend that Wikimedia rebrands itself around the word > > > "Wikipedia" > > > > > > > and projects like Wikimedia Commons are renamed to > "Wikicommons" > > to > > > > > > > ensure marketing of the projects can easily be delivered by the > > > WMF. > > > > > > > Do you support or oppose this rebranding programme?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With a straightforward RFC to keep on linking to in every > > > discussion > > > > > > > on every venue, we might then have tangible evidence of whether > > > > "There > > > > > > > is considerable support for the branding proposal" or "There is > > > > > > > considerable opposition for the branding proposal" is factual. > > > Rather > > > > > > > than drifting along for months with the debate and unhappiness > > that > > > > > > > comes from arguing both sides of a mostly political case > without > > > > > > > firmly verifiable evidence available or relying on complex and > > less > > > > > > > credible stats from surveys that are likely to suffer from > > embedded > > > > > > > bias, especially considering the already banked investment in > > > > > > > consultancy that drives the need to change something, to prove > > the > > > > > > > spent money had impact and "value". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Zack and others, it's best to avoid the word > "collaboration" > > > > when > > > > > > > communicating with an international group. It has unfortunate > > > history > > > > > > > and gives the impression that you are quoting views from > > > > collaborators > > > > > > > rather than holding open collegial discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Fae > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 17:19, Diane Ranville < > > > > > dranville-...@wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Pine. > > > > > > > > There is a majority of people who actually oppose the > > rebranding > > > > > > > > proposition. > > > > > > > > I don't quite understand why this is still going forward > > (except > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > difficult to acknowledge a mistake and take steps backwards - > > but > > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > > > sometimes necessary). > > > > > > > > Have other options even been considered? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -speaking in my own name here- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Diane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:35 AM Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Zack, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the report on Meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am troubled by your statement in this email that "There > is > > > > > > > considerable > > > > > > > > > support for the brand proposal and general appetite to > > improve > > > > our > > > > > > > > > movement’s branding system." What that statement appears to > > > omit > > > > is > > > > > > > that, > > > > > > > > > according to the report on Meta, there is also considerable > > > > > > opposition > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the rebranding proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you explain why you characterized the proposal as > having > > > > > > > "considerable > > > > > > > > > support" without in the same sentence acknowledging what > > > appears > > > > to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > considerable opposition? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of the three top-level metrics that the report on Meta > > displays > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > measure community and affiliate support or opposition > > regarding > > > > the > > > > > > > > > rebranding proposal, one of the three metrics is in favor > and > > > two > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > three metrics are opposed. If this was an RfC, and I was > > using > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > measures of sentiment to evaluate support and opposition > > > > regarding > > > > > > the > > > > > > > RfC, > > > > > > > > > I would probably close the current rebranding proposal as > > > > declined. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 20:49 Zack McCune < > > zmcc...@wikimedia.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Summary* - We want your help with a voluntary, OPT-IN > > design > > > > > > > process for > > > > > > > > > > movement branding. Please join the in-depth discussion > > > group, > > > > or > > > > > > > watch > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > updates on Meta-Wiki. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After 4 months of community consultation, spanning dozens > > of > > > > > > > affiliates, > > > > > > > > > > several mailing lists, community conferences, and > > Meta-Wiki, > > > I > > > > am > > > > > > > pleased > > > > > > > > > > to share a summary of feedback on the proposed 2030 > > movement > > > > > brand > > > > > > > > > strategy > > > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From more than 319 comments, representing 150 individual > > > > > > > contributors and > > > > > > > > > > 63 affiliates, we assessed 6 major themes in feedback: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reducing confusion > > > > > > > > > > 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Protecting reputation > > > > > > > > > > 3. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Supporting sister projects > > > > > > > > > > 4. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Addressing (legal, governmental) risks > > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Supporting movement growth > > > > > > > > > > 6. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The process of change > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please visit our feedback summary page to learn more [2]. > > You > > > > > will > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > > examples of comments within each section, along with a > > rough > > > > > > > indication > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > how many of the comments that we received were related to > > > each > > > > > > theme. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The comments sometimes contradict one another, showing > that > > > > > across > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > wide > > > > > > > > > > movement’s experience, different points of view are > common > > > > (and a > > > > > > > sign of > > > > > > > > > > health!). To visualize these tensions, we have created > > > > “polarity > > > > > > > maps” > > > > > > > > > > which are used to help visualize how different arguments > > > > coexist > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > tension > > > > > > > > > > with each other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, the comments provided from you all are very > > > > > thoughtful > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > useful guidance on what is needed to make our movement’s > > > > branding > > > > > > > > > > successful. One can read the 6 themes above as “criteria” > > for > > > > > > > assessing > > > > > > > > > > branding systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Thanks == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to thank the organizers of Iberoconf, > > Wikipedia > > > > > > > Education > > > > > > > > > > Summit, and the Wikimedia Summit for inviting us to hold > > > > > > discussions > > > > > > > > > during > > > > > > > > > > their sessions. I would also like to thank my colleagues > > > Elena > > > > > > > Lappen, > > > > > > > > > > Samir Elsharbaty, and Blanca Flores who conducted > extensive > > > > parts > > > > > > of > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > consultation. To the hundreds of people, and dozens of > > > > affiliates > > > > > > > > > > commenting, thank you for reviewing the proposal and > > offering > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > perspectives and insights. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Next steps and staying involved == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is considerable support for the brand proposal and > > > > general > > > > > > > appetite > > > > > > > > > > to improve our movement’s branding system. Further, we > > > believe > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > critical feedback on the proposal offers direct guidance > > for > > > > > > > precisely > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > branding must do to be successful for our movement. We > have > > > > > shared > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > insights and our proposed continuance with the Board of > > > > Trustees, > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > > > approved continuing these efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Acting on community insights, we will be collaborating on > > > > formal > > > > > > > brand > > > > > > > > > > naming, visual identity, and brand system design that > will > > > use > > > > > > > > > “Wikipedia” > > > > > > > > > > as the central reference point. The resulting system will > > be > > > > > OPT-IN > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > affiliates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This design process will be guided by a “brand network” > – a > > > > group > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > volunteers who would like to continue advising on brand > > > during > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > consultation. Dozens of people have already volunteered, > > and > > > we > > > > > > > invite > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > to join the group. We will use a group on Wikimedia Space > > to > > > > host > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > discussion and the group will be closed to allow candid > > > > > discussions > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > room for iterations. EVERYONE IS INVITED TO JOIN [3]. If > > you > > > do > > > > > not > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > commit to the in-depth, longer term discussions that will > > be > > > > > > > happening > > > > > > > > > > within the brand network group, we will still be tracking > > > > > comments > > > > > > > left > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > the project’s Meta-Wiki page [4]. Furthermore, all > > important > > > > > ideas > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > updates originating from the brand network discussion > will > > be > > > > > > shared > > > > > > > > > > publicly to mailing lists and Meta-Wiki. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The development of this proposed identity system will > take > > > > > > > approximately > > > > > > > > > 6 > > > > > > > > > > months. As stated, regular updates will be shared to > > mailing > > > > > lists, > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia Space, and Meta-Wiki [4]. Please engage us > where > > > you > > > > > are > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > > comfortable! Once complete, community groups will have > the > > > > power > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > decide > > > > > > > > > > if/when they opt in to using the new system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zack > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2019/02/26/leading- > > > > with-wikipedia-a-brand-proposal-for-2030/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_ > > > > brands/2030_research_and_planning/community_review/results > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/g/brand-network > and > > > > click > > > > > > the > > > > > > > gray > > > > > > > > > > "Request" button. When your request is approved, you will > > be > > > > able > > > > > > to > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > > and access the brand network discussion category on the > > > Discuss > > > > > > Space > > > > > > > > > main > > > > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [4] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_ > > > > brands/2030_research_and_planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zack McCune (he/him) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Director of Brand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > and > > > > > > > > > > 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