hi, I also think a similar demarcation is needed in chapter and community functions. Chapter leadership should also not be imposed on the community. I am not saying this is happening, just that such demarcation will help.
I hope the Chapter discusses this overlap as well. Pradeep Handheld On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.bain...@gmail.com> wrote: > Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does not > hold water. > > In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of > roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments, > having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are > found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less. > > We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain > true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice > that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as community > volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We see > them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a derogatory > term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities must > only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There is > a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as > community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. They > owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the > hounds all at once. > > The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is > okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming > good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can > easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that > reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as > WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of who > is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are expected > to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought to > formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to pay > for choosing a paid job from WMF. > > The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but that > can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper > chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I > assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their > goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow or > face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related > organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. COI > will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having > good policy, good communication and sensible interaction. > > We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost > effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer led > activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous > crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The > Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of attention, > money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not > reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I > cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the demand > is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating, > some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born. > > In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour. > More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta hai". > > We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho > COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out there > for us to tackle - things which really matter, like the hundreds of > thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian > Schools! > > Warm regards, > > Ashwin Baindur > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham > <tinucher...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> And to add >> >> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their >> user pages, demarcating this very difference". >> >> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or >> writing mails. Not in real life work ! >> >> I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the >> chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and >> breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each >> of our action is. >> >> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia >> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer >> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid >> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ? >> >> -TC >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucher...@gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the >>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and >>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a >>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter. >>> >>> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid >>> employee of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well. >>> >>> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands >>> and too many arm chair advisers. Period. >>> >>> -TC >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011 <de10...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham < >>>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of >>>>> what his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a >>>>> foundation staff or contractor even being the board member of the >>>>> chapter , >>>>> less alone any volunteer or member. There are several Wikimedia >>>>> chapters >>>>> in the world who has paid and full time staff working for them. The >>>>> Secretary ( volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full >>>>> time >>>>> Contractor. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that clarifies >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what you are talking about above. >>>> >>>> The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, >>>> they should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several >>>> countries dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of >>>> their own or parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually >>>> resign to take up employee position. It used to be that they had to >>>> resign >>>> to take up any position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new >>>> feature with confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see >>>> the distinction and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board >>>> members by definition can not be paid employees, this is not my >>>> distinction >>>> but a legal one. Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should >>>> adhere to. >>>> >>>> I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can >>>> demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The >>>> community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this >>>> clearly, >>>> on wiki. >>>> >>>> It might not be "practically separate whether we does something as a >>>> volunteer...." the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp, >>>> staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one >>>> does >>>> as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is >>>> why >>>> they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages, >>>> demarcating this very difference. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Theo >>>> >>>> P.S. @achal lol >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > -- Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9 _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l