Yeppers. Me too. Part of why I'm on these lists is for the knowledge to be gained. Good AND bad.
thanks, marlon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Richardson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 >I would be interested in your experience. > > > > > __________________________________ > Jerry Richardson > airCloud Communications > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Matt Liotta > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:52 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 > > We did test them. I would rather not share bad experiences on a public > list. See you at ISPCON. > > -Matt > > On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Travis Johnson wrote: > >> Matt, >> >> What does that mean? Have you tested it? Was it good or bad? >> >> Travis >> Microserv >> >> Matt Liotta wrote: >>> >>> There is already an SR3 card. I would HIGHLY suggest you test it >>> throughly before deploying. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> On Nov 3, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Travis Johnson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> That would be great... but is there a time frame? >>>> >>>> Travis >>>> Microserv >>>> >>>> Mike Hammett wrote: >>>> >>>>> There are companies out there working on non-802.11 3.65 GHz >>>>> systems that provide the same spectral efficiency as WiMAX, but >>>>> without the WiMAX hype price tag. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: [WISPA] 3.65 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt, >>>>> >>>>> I agree. We are looking at the same thing... putting up some >>>>> 3.65ghz AP's on our "bigger" towers and moving heavy usage >>>>> customers to that. However, until base stations are less than $8k, >>>>> the WiMax people can keep spending money on advertising, trade- >>>>> shows, etc. telling us how great they are, I'm not going to buy. >>>>> >>>>> When you can buy a licensed microwave radio link for $8k (less >>>>> antennas), and you know the company is making money, there is no >>>>> reason 3.65ghz base stations have to be $8k+. >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully at some point, they will wake up and realize there is an >>>>> entire market they are missing. >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: >>>>> I'm with Travis on this, with the exception of using StarOS instead > >>>>> of >>>>> Mikrotik. It is nice to have a set of standard, mature tools such >>>>> as >>>>> radius, cbq/iptable rules and standard, non-vendor specific >>>>> hardware to work with instead of having to use a limited, >>>>> proprietary system limited to a single vendor. I've >>>>> deployed/consulted on 802.11 a/b/g networks representing 8000+ CPE >>>>> units and it can be made to work just fine as >>>>> long as it is managed properly. Travis is a pro, and he has the >>>>> experience to design his network in such a way as to maximize the >>>>> performance of his equipment. There are many others out there >>>>> having >>>>> the same success. >>>>> >>>>> FWIW, I believe the most logical next step is to start moving heavy >>>>> usage customers over to 3.65 WiMAX gear starting next spring. I >>>>> think >>>>> we are near the threshold of what is going to be possible with >>>>> unlicensed equipment - barring some kind of amazing >>>>> breakthrough. I >>>>> foresee a need to deploy smaller and smaller cells to maintain the >>>>> desired performance level. It helps to have 10mhz channel sizes >>>>> available to maximize the utilization of existing spectrum, but >>>>> even >>>>> that is starting to get awfully crowded. Whitespaces sure would >>>>> help. >>>>> >>>>> I spent the last two years putting up 802.11a based APs across my >>>>> entire service area and migrating customers from 2.4 to them to get > >>>>> the higher >>>>> ARPU from faster speeds and VOIP service. I foresee spending the >>>>> next >>>>> two years deploying licensed backhauls and 3.65 APs starting with >>>>> the >>>>> high traffic areas and working out to the fringes. Its the >>>>> neverending >>>>> story. >>>>> >>>>> Matt Larsen >>>>> vistabeam.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Travis Johnson wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP >>>>> address. >>>>> We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for >>>>> management). >>>>> >>>>> When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to >>>>> connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was "color >>>>> code". >>>>> This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to >>>>> change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are >>>>> setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower >>>>> without the installer doing anything in the field. >>>>> >>>>> And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio >>>>> in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll >>>>> through 160 people to find them by MAC address? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total >>>>> throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get >>>>> 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a >>>>> 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered > >>>>> via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a >>>>> specific percentage of up/down. >>>>> >>>>> And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer >>>>> gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens >>>>> when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are >>>>> getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider >>>>> and all those people get 100ms latency? >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper >>>>> management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force >>>>> the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. > >>>>> And there are several non motorola software packages that do this >>>>> kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat >>>>> in managing any of this. >>>>> >>>>> We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps >>>>> burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. >>>>> And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do >>>>> with anyone else. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and > >>>>> once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network >>>>> management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) >>>>> system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID >>>>> and IP address every time they register, having to set the >>>>> bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways >>>>> to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy >>>>> their software, etc. >>>>> >>>>> All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are >>>>> using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, >>>>> 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 >>>>> customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less >>>>> than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). >>>>> >>>>> Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been >>>>> one to follow the "norm". And I get to put $50 in my pocket on >>>>> every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>> Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. >>>>> Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing "up to 4meg" for >>>>> $29.95 >>>>> with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing "up to >>>>> 2meg", mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet >>>>> we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more >>>>> installs than we can keep up with each month. >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>> You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast >>>>> giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have >>>>> to? >>>>> Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular >>>>> package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). >>>>> Why give >>>>> away the farm if you don't have to? :) >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>> Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher >>>>> speeds. >>>>> >>>>> Technically speaking, the download & upload price is the same. >>>>> From a >>>>> cost standpoint, I allocate the download & upload separately >>>>> because I am "forced" to pay dearly ($1200/month) to AT&T for my >>>>> dual T1's which are required for "decent" upload speeds. Right now, > >>>>> my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x > >>>>> 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. >>>>> This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web >>>>> browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, >>>>> monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management & monitoring > >>>>> and I'm working on the reporting. >>>>> The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with >>>>> Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. >>>>> Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream >>>>> connection next. I really need to get the cost down. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! -RickG >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Rick, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and >>>>> upload). >>>>> So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all >>>>> the time. >>>>> They are not "dedicated" connections, but rather you get what you >>>>> pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but >>>>> only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity >>>>> during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and >>>>> monitor every single AP (over 200 of >>>>> them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we >>>>> always know what's happening on our network. >>>>> >>>>> We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections >>>>> to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is >>>>> your upload price different than your download price? >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Travis, >>>>> >>>>> Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of > >>>>> your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed >>>>> test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you >>>>> dont mind, I have a few questions: >>>>> Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download >>>>> speed? >>>>> What are you paying for your upstream connection? >>>>> What type of upstream connection do you have? >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my >>>>> way. >>>>> When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, >>>>> the business model is tough. >>>>> >>>>> -RickG >>>>> >>>>> BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a >>>>> problem that many us us small WISP's face. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they >>>>> run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for >>>>> residential customers and they always get what they pay for >>>>> (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Travis, >>>>> >>>>> If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher >>>>> of >>>>> bandwidth for every customer? >>>>> >>>>> -RickG >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps >>>>> package, >>>>> they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have >>>>> never >>>>> liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and >>>>> buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 >>>>> for >>>>> "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to >>>>> get, >>>>> but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> Kurt Fankhauser wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much >>>>> bandwidth that >>>>> you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. >>>>> And >>>>> what >>>>> do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled >>>>> down >>>>> speed. >>>>> (they don't know your throttling them though) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kurt Fankhauser >>>>> WAVELINC >>>>> P.O. Box 126 >>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820 >>>>> 419-562-6405 >>>>> www.wavelinc.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -------------------- >>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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