Comments inline... Daniel White 3-dB Networks
> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. > > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider > market. > > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban > WISPs. They use Aperto. > What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two > occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of > Alvarion later on. > What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of > Trango > at one point. > What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. > What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was > mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. > What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT > primarilly a Canopy shop. > With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out though, is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no data to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in Colorado... > Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in > compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. > But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. > I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the international market... > You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most > all > of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the > largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to > now > buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that > Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all things considered. > I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap > frog > game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, > because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application > on > this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may > bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new > products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. > No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But AKAIK there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw on Broadband reports). > And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a > croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, > my > Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. > That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as far as I know no longer available. I think the decision was made for them either way... it probably wasn't a choice. But the fact remains, once they switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado who does not have Canopy in their network. > I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the > reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could > afford the best. Alvarion has that reputation for sure. I have seen very little of their gear deployed though (admittingly I wasn't in the industry during the Breezemax days...) > Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for > "small > operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, I'd argue that point all day long... Trango/Canopy pricing is about dead even every time I have seen a quote on Trango... and I don't think they have been ahead of the Canopy product line in years... your next statement backs that up. > and > favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the > path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps > capacities, > therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into > winning > business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and > doesn't > want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that > can do it at near the same price point. Actually in some ways Aperto gear can end up being cheaper at this point than Canopy at 21Mbps... but I hope a wide adoption of TVWS at that level will change the game. The 430 series gear is going to be even more interesting... delivering 42Mbps... OEM platforms and 3.65 equipment is going to have a hard time competing with that... > > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > > > >I guess we need to define large... :-) > > > > You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say > > 1000 > > customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say > > 2006 > > on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now > > they > > are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. > > > > I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I > for > > one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they > all > > use Canopy... > > > > Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very > wrong > > :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I > apologize!) > > > > Daniel White > > 3-dB Networks > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM > >> To: WISPA General List > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> > >> > the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason > >> > >> Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use > >> Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. > >> > >> I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, > >> StarOS, etc. > >> > >> Tom DeReggi > >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> > >> > >> > Steve, > >> > > >> > I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our > company > >> we > >> > are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of > our > >> > success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article > >> here > >> > about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx > >> > > >> > Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it > allows > >> you > >> > to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your > >> > revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the > >> interest, > >> > but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your > >> vendor > >> > instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better > in > >> the > >> > article. > >> > > >> > Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another > >> > WISP > >> > can > >> > replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment > >> > related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an > >> 802.11a/b/g > >> > solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were > on > >> > KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. > We > >> > had > >> > many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been > successful > >> > without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. > >> > Our > >> > WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit > >> the > >> > limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo > >> network > >> > in > >> > 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much > >> (its > >> > all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to > it). > >> So > >> > while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and > >> > start > >> > over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. > >> > > >> > My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't > >> > worth > >> > much anymore) > >> > > >> > Daniel White > >> > 3-dB Networks > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> On > >> >> Behalf Of Steve Barnes > >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM > >> >> To: WISPA General List > >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> > >> >> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so > >> >> that > >> >> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You > >> >> still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI > >> >> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. > >> >> Can you help me with that one. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Steve > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> On > >> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM > >> >> To: WISPA General List > >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the > >> install > >> >> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" > on > >> >> every new customer. > >> >> > >> >> Travis > >> >> Microserv > >> >> > >> >> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: > >> >> > >> >> You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 > >> >> subscribers > >> >> things will be a bit better. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> >> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM > >> >> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth > >> >> different > >> >> WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended > >> >> equipment > >> >> that is so often discussed on this list. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch > >> >> each > >> >> penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to > >> >> service the > >> >> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other > >> >> that > >> >> what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 > >> >> towers with > >> >> 320 clients. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a > >> >> $59.99 Pro > >> >> Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn > >> >> off the > >> >> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M > >> >> on any > >> >> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS > >> >> Full > >> >> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost > >> >> of with > >> >> another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to > >> >> achieve > >> >> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. > >> >> What do > >> >> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have > >> >> started you > >> >> service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have > >> >> and I > >> >> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in > >> >> the same > >> >> boat. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND > >> >> definition > >> >> without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is > >> >> everyone > >> >> charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing > >> >> is not > >> >> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. > >> >> No > >> >> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge > >> >> Verizon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Steve Barnes > >> >> > >> >> RC-WiFi.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> - > >> >> -------- > >> >> WISPA Wants You! 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