> Show me the day that a UBNT product can have 160+ clients connected to it > with sub 10ms ping times to them all.
I cant. Canopy wins that one, atleast in PtMP mode. (Tenant building is different story, where we have a few CPEs to AP, but a lot of customers behind each CPE). If a super cell site design is needed, thats where Canopy and Trango shine. >The Trango is calls because the capacity sucks. I dont agree with that, considering Trango has more capacity (9mbps) than a non-advantage basic Canopy AP (7mb aggregate, but less each way when a fixed ratio in each direction is configured, required for syncing). Obviously, Advantage series Canopy has more capacity, if the shorter range that product requires is acceptable for the coverage footprint. > 2. Range wise, we have Moto clients 18 miles out. MikroTik/UBNT, we had > them at 22 miles out. Those are extremes for us, so I don't see how range > is an issue...unless you are working with 15+ mile customers for the > majority...again, most of us are not. Antenna wise, there are available > products from LMG to max out the EIRP. Again, I dont question that canopy scales better or the possibilty to get 18 mile range. But that claim is a bit misleading. We need to recognize noise floor and rain factor are also factors, that restrict range to less than the theoretical or ideal case range. Maybe in 2.4G or 900M 18 mile is typical, but not in 5.8 or 5.3. Lets use a link budget calculator and do the math... Trango 5.8Ghz AP... tx 22, ant 14, CPE 22tx, ant 25.@ 12 miles = -72 rssi. leaves 10db of fade margin, since sensitivity is -82 or so. Canopy specs are pretty close to Trango, but not sure exactly what they are, so guessing here... For Canopy 5.8Ap lets assume all the same specs, except the AP antenna only has an 8dbi int antenna. The maths says -78 rssi, and only 4.5db fade margin. Lets see what happens when we try to get 10db of fade margin equivellent to Trango, meaning -72 rssi.... the results are 6 miles. Exactly 1/2 the range of the Trango, with same size customer premise antenna. But do you really want to use a dish at customer sites? Lets do the math for 18 miles, and the Canopy will yield -82 rssi. Does one really want to operate a link without any fade margin? The problem gets worse with Canopy 5.3, at low power, where antenna gain is absolutely needed to get distance. A 14bi at AP and 15 SU will just barely get 2 miles with 10db of fade. 8db Canopy AP with Behive on CPE (at legal power limits) gets you 1 mile with same fade margin at the AP side. 8dbi antenna is a handicap. (again math may not be exact, if canopy has better sensitivity than written). I recognize a Canopy AP could use an external antenna, to make up for it. But there is an extra cost for that. Or a Beehive to up the CPE gain, but again a cost for that. I also recognize we were originally talking about comparing Ubiquiti to Canopy, (not trango). But the same principles apply. Sure a Canopy DSSS system will have more range than an OFDM one requiring higher modulation and worse sensitivity. But more comparable Advantage series also has half the range of a regular Canopy to keep this conversation fair. But again, with Ubiquiti I can get an AP operating at full EIRP by default, and have options for non-dish CPE units of higher gain than 8dbi. If someone looks at Canopy, I highly recommend that they consider higher gain AP antenna options. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Hogg" <[email protected]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp > 1. While I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, show me the > day that a UBNT product can have 160+ clients connected to it with sub > 10ms ping times to them all. One single AP, passing 7mb aggregate of > traffic. I've had Trango, Canopy, and a huge pusher of MikroTik (same > proto as UBNT). Canopy by far beats them in scale, there is no question > about it. Most non-Canopy people don't want to hear it, but I started > drinking the Moto Kool Aid about a year ago. My support calls of > customers on Trango vs Canopy vs Mikro/UBNT is astounding. For every 50 > service calls, about 8 of them are for Canopy customers, where the > installer did not properly use the correct size antenna or alignment was > off. The others are Mikro/UBNT problems from interference or other > issues. The Trango is calls because the capacity sucks. > > 2. Range wise, we have Moto clients 18 miles out. MikroTik/UBNT, we had > them at 22 miles out. Those are extremes for us, so I don't see how range > is an issue...unless you are working with 15+ mile customers for the > majority...again, most of us are not. Antenna wise, there are available > products from LMG to max out the EIRP. > > Anyone can do those shields for any type of antenna...regardless of UBNT > or Canopy. > > The problem is, yes you can get 40 customers on an AP...split it up into > sectors and get maybe 120. Do the same on Canopy, and it's 600+ clients > per site. So, if you are looking to only do 120 (with perfect 0 > interference from outside sources, which is highly unlikely in his urban > market)...it scales. If you want more...you get the picture. > > Regards, > Chuck Hogg > Shelby Broadband > 502-722-9292 > [email protected] > http://www.shelbybb.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:25 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp > > I am not disagreeing with the advantages of Canopy. No doubt Canopy is a > quality carrier grade type system. > > BUT, to be fair.... There are other factors to consider.. > > 1) Syncing can be effective for spectrum reuse, and extremely useful. But, > it can become less effective and sometimes can still be subject to > self-interference as the nework grows, such as when the sub's distince > away from towers varies drastically between sectors. The reason us that > sectors can hear CPEs behinds it in some capacity, not just teh CPEs in > front of it. > For example, IF sector 1 has a sub at half mile, and Sector2 has sub at 10 > miles. Sector2 may hear sector1's sub louder than it hears its own > subscriber 10 miles away. For syncing to work optimally without self > interference, all the Client's signal levels at the AP ideally should be > received at similar signal strenth, so that the Front to back ratios of > sector antennas is enough to isolate the two sectors. Whether that is > possible may depend on the frequency range you use, and what antennas are > available to easilly deploy. With Canopy C/I spec of 3db helps a lot, but > the plastic case lets more noise reach the unit. We ran into this when > comparingto Trango. trango only had about 7db C/I, but the thick metal > case had muchbetter F?B than Canopy did, so it average out. > > 2) Canopies have signficantly shorter range because by default config > (integrated antenna models) they use APs and SUs with lower DB antennas > and wider beamwidths, so not able to operate at peak EIRP. Also note that > gain by antenna has a double effect. Meaning for an AP, it increases the > receives from CPEs as well as the transmits to CPEs. So a large penalty > is taken if an AP has an lower DB antenna than competing products. > > Canopy has many different models now, and antenna design is not the same > with them all, so I dont mean to stereotype the product line. > > In an Ubquiti AirMax solutions, they have optimally strong sector antenna > options. And they have the flexibilty for a wide array of antenna choices > for CPEs. > That flexibility can be useful, and it is affordable to achieve. Saying > that Ubiquiti wont be able to scale, and one day will need to be pulled > out, is not necessarilly true. > > There are enhancements to beef up Ubiquiti. For example, some jsut made a > nice steel antenna shield, that adds a huge amount of Front to back ratio > teh the Ubiquiti antenna. > > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Richardson" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:12 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp > > >> if you are not going with moto, then the ubiquity airmax stuff would >> be as good a choice as any. you might get 20 business class subs per >> ap and you should be able to get 3 120deg sectors on the roof. you >> will run into self interference problems at around 20 subs per AP. >> unfortunately you will already be committed to the ubiquity and there >> is no going back. gotta rip it all out and rebuild with canopy or add >> more AP's in another band. >> >> compare that to 50+ subs per canopy AP and none of the self >> interference problems inherent in non-sync'd gear. >> >> ~<Sent mobile>~ >> >> On May 27, 2010, at 5:53 PM, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Rocket w/matching sector >>> Sent from my BlackBerry® >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: finkle dinkle <[email protected]> >>> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:51:37 >>> To: WISPA General List<[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>> >>> Well, I'm not saying I want a single AP, just trying to determine >>> which route with UBNT products would support the most per client >>> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Chuck Hogg <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> I was thinking the same thing... I want to be business class and go >>>> the cheap-o route. By a Yugo, get Yugo quality...especially if you >>>> think 50 business customers on a single ap is going to work well in >>>> an urban area with UBNT. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Chuck Hogg >>>> Shelby Broadband >>>> 502-722-9292 >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://www.shelbybb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:12 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>> >>>> Your Moto bias will cost you. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of finkle dinkle >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:44 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>> >>>> Yea, I will want to specialize only in businesses truthfully, when >>>> I say that I will support residential, they're going to pay >>>> business rates and I will hand pick the people if they call me.. I >>>> dont want headaches >>>> >>>> Unfortunately I do not knowingly buy Motorola brand products for >>>> personal reasons. >>>> >>>> I do want to stick to ubnt brand products but I dont know exactly >>>> how many NanoBridge M5's I could connect to a single one, so I dont >>>> want to have to end up with the entire roof covered with antenna's. >>>> >>>> The 50mbit I could offer internally with ethernet or vdsl would be >>>> great if it was symmetrical (vdsl), I want to be able to do this, >>>> just trying to figure out how much I'd sell 50/50. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Richardson >>>> <[email protected] >>>> > wrote: >>>>> Thought BPL was dead >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of RickG >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:28 PM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>>> >>>>> Or BPL. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Jeremie Chism <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I was thinking the same thing. Use a mini dslam on the free pairs >>>>>> to >>>>>> get Internet in the rooms. Ptp to the building and dsl to the >>>>>> customer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 27, 2010, at 12:11 PM, "Robert West" <robert.w...@just- >>>>>> micro.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Then you could provide the access via dsl in the building. That >>>>>>> would be the logical route to go I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Richard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:wireless- >>>>>>> [email protected]] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of finkle dinkle >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:08 PM >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Justin, appreciate your suggestion. I've been looking around and >>>>>>> will continue to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Josh, the gbit ptp will be done through fiber to the building, >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> whoever in the building wants service.. will pay set up to get set >>>>>>> up with ethernet or fiber to my office. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know I could get enough business inside the building to cover >>>>>>> half >>>>>>> the cost of everything because I'm pretty sure there is a company >>>>>>> here with quite a few T1's, overpaying and not getting what they >>>>>>> deserve. >>>>>>> I've always been a proponent of maxing stuff out so I will be a >>>>>>> great benefit to the tenants. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So if I'm able to set something up externally, I may be able to >>>>>>> actually break even and profit some, I actually know I could >>>>>>> profit >>>>>>> but I want this to be more of a service to the people who are >>>>>>> unable >>>>>>> to get anything decent out here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Justin Wilson <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Nice introduction to the WISPA community. Make fun of the name. >>>>>>>> I even >>>>>>>> recommended this person check out WISPA from the Ubiquity forums. >>>>>>> Anyhow, >>>>>>>> welcome. I would suggest reading through the archives for some >>>>>>>> good discussions on things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Justin >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Justin Wilson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> http://www.mtin.net/blog >>>>>>>> Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Jack Unger <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:28:35 -0700 >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My first recommendation would be to legally change your name from >>>>>>>> Finkle Dinkle to something that sounds a little more business- >>>>>>>> like. >>>>>>>> I'd recommend something like "Joe Smith" or "Bob Jones". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> finkle dinkle wrote: >>>>>>>>> So, I've got space in a building in So. Cal with a lot of >>>>>>>>> neighbors with crappy connections. In the beginning, I wanted to >>>>>>>>> bring in a gig PTP from the datacenter 12 miles away... I'm >>>>>>>>> not a >>>>>>>>> salesman, I think with the bandwidth I have available at the >>>>>>>>> DC + >>>>>>>>> the of the PTP, I could've made everyone in the building >>>>>>>>> happy, at >>>>>>>>> least 20 tenants if I could convince them.. doubt I could. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway, I have potential access to the roof, I'd have to ask. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are there any laws if I want to sell service ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If I want to provide service to lets just say 50 clients (not in >>>>>>>>> the building but through wireless), are there devices that dont >>>>>>>>> have to rely on LOS ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm just trying to understand if this all went along well, how >>>>>>>>> many devices would I need to mount up on the roof to support >>>>>>>>> 20-50 >>>>>>>>> clients externally with the devices and which devices.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm looking to sell the bandwidth for a relatively low price, >>>>>>>>> undercut wimax and not strictly looking for profit but looking >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be the point guy for other tech operations for these potential >>>>>>>>> clients.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, to the people who have good access to bandwidth or even >>>>>>>>> not.. >>>>>>>>> how much are you looking at from all your cost to what you >>>>>>>>> actually charge (not including administrative) but lets assume >>>>>>>>> your bandwidth costs are 8k/month with the point to point to the >>>>>>>>> datacenter + 1000mbit commit. I know I could do better but what >>>>>>>>> are we looking at here, if the total cost to get the bandwidth, >>>>>>>>> less the equipment to my office building at 8 bux a meg, how >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> should I be selling it ? >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>> recommendations ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do not want to be a company like towerstream where I sell 8 >>>>>>>>> megs >>>>>>>>> for 800/MRC, i'm looking to charge more like 25 bux per meg... >>>>>>>>> Is >>>>>>>>> my model right or wrong ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>>>>>> Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since >>>>>>>> 1993 >>>>>>>> www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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