1. While I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, show me the day that a UBNT product can have 160+ clients connected to it with sub 10ms ping times to them all. One single AP, passing 7mb aggregate of traffic. I've had Trango, Canopy, and a huge pusher of MikroTik (same proto as UBNT). Canopy by far beats them in scale, there is no question about it. Most non-Canopy people don't want to hear it, but I started drinking the Moto Kool Aid about a year ago. My support calls of customers on Trango vs Canopy vs Mikro/UBNT is astounding. For every 50 service calls, about 8 of them are for Canopy customers, where the installer did not properly use the correct size antenna or alignment was off. The others are Mikro/UBNT problems from interference or other issues. The Trango is calls because the capacity sucks.
2. Range wise, we have Moto clients 18 miles out. MikroTik/UBNT, we had them at 22 miles out. Those are extremes for us, so I don't see how range is an issue...unless you are working with 15+ mile customers for the majority...again, most of us are not. Antenna wise, there are available products from LMG to max out the EIRP. Anyone can do those shields for any type of antenna...regardless of UBNT or Canopy. The problem is, yes you can get 40 customers on an AP...split it up into sectors and get maybe 120. Do the same on Canopy, and it's 600+ clients per site. So, if you are looking to only do 120 (with perfect 0 interference from outside sources, which is highly unlikely in his urban market)...it scales. If you want more...you get the picture. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -----Original Message----- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp I am not disagreeing with the advantages of Canopy. No doubt Canopy is a quality carrier grade type system. BUT, to be fair.... There are other factors to consider.. 1) Syncing can be effective for spectrum reuse, and extremely useful. But, it can become less effective and sometimes can still be subject to self-interference as the nework grows, such as when the sub's distince away from towers varies drastically between sectors. The reason us that sectors can hear CPEs behinds it in some capacity, not just teh CPEs in front of it. For example, IF sector 1 has a sub at half mile, and Sector2 has sub at 10 miles. Sector2 may hear sector1's sub louder than it hears its own subscriber 10 miles away. For syncing to work optimally without self interference, all the Client's signal levels at the AP ideally should be received at similar signal strenth, so that the Front to back ratios of sector antennas is enough to isolate the two sectors. Whether that is possible may depend on the frequency range you use, and what antennas are available to easilly deploy. With Canopy C/I spec of 3db helps a lot, but the plastic case lets more noise reach the unit. We ran into this when comparingto Trango. trango only had about 7db C/I, but the thick metal case had muchbetter F?B than Canopy did, so it average out. 2) Canopies have signficantly shorter range because by default config (integrated antenna models) they use APs and SUs with lower DB antennas and wider beamwidths, so not able to operate at peak EIRP. Also note that gain by antenna has a double effect. Meaning for an AP, it increases the receives from CPEs as well as the transmits to CPEs. So a large penalty is taken if an AP has an lower DB antenna than competing products. Canopy has many different models now, and antenna design is not the same with them all, so I dont mean to stereotype the product line. In an Ubquiti AirMax solutions, they have optimally strong sector antenna options. And they have the flexibilty for a wide array of antenna choices for CPEs. That flexibility can be useful, and it is affordable to achieve. Saying that Ubiquiti wont be able to scale, and one day will need to be pulled out, is not necessarilly true. There are enhancements to beef up Ubiquiti. For example, some jsut made a nice steel antenna shield, that adds a huge amount of Front to back ratio teh the Ubiquiti antenna. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Richardson" <jrichard...@aircloud.com> To: <j284...@yahoo.com>; "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp > if you are not going with moto, then the ubiquity airmax stuff would > be as good a choice as any. you might get 20 business class subs per > ap and you should be able to get 3 120deg sectors on the roof. you > will run into self interference problems at around 20 subs per AP. > unfortunately you will already be committed to the ubiquity and there > is no going back. gotta rip it all out and rebuild with canopy or add > more AP's in another band. > > compare that to 50+ subs per canopy AP and none of the self > interference problems inherent in non-sync'd gear. > > ~<Sent mobile>~ > > On May 27, 2010, at 5:53 PM, "j284...@yahoo.com" <j284...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> Rocket w/matching sector >> Sent from my BlackBerry® >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: finkle dinkle <char...@gmail.com> >> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:51:37 >> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >> >> Well, I'm not saying I want a single AP, just trying to determine >> which route with UBNT products would support the most per client >> >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Chuck Hogg <ch...@shelbybb.com> >> wrote: >>> I was thinking the same thing... I want to be business class and go >>> the cheap-o route. By a Yugo, get Yugo quality...especially if you >>> think 50 business customers on a single ap is going to work well in >>> an urban area with UBNT. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Chuck Hogg >>> Shelby Broadband >>> 502-722-9292 >>> ch...@shelbybb.com >>> http://www.shelbybb.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- >>> boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson >>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:12 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>> >>> Your Moto bias will cost you. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- >>> boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of finkle dinkle >>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:44 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>> >>> Yea, I will want to specialize only in businesses truthfully, when >>> I say that I will support residential, they're going to pay >>> business rates and I will hand pick the people if they call me.. I >>> dont want headaches >>> >>> Unfortunately I do not knowingly buy Motorola brand products for >>> personal reasons. >>> >>> I do want to stick to ubnt brand products but I dont know exactly >>> how many NanoBridge M5's I could connect to a single one, so I dont >>> want to have to end up with the entire roof covered with antenna's. >>> >>> The 50mbit I could offer internally with ethernet or vdsl would be >>> great if it was symmetrical (vdsl), I want to be able to do this, >>> just trying to figure out how much I'd sell 50/50. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Richardson >>> <jrichard...@aircloud.com >>> > wrote: >>>> Thought BPL was dead >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>> On Behalf Of RickG >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:28 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>> >>>> Or BPL. >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Jeremie Chism <jchi...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I was thinking the same thing. Use a mini dslam on the free pairs >>>>> to >>>>> get Internet in the rooms. Ptp to the building and dsl to the >>>>> customer. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On May 27, 2010, at 12:11 PM, "Robert West" <robert.w...@just- >>>>> micro.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Then you could provide the access via dsl in the building. That >>>>>> would be the logical route to go I think. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Richard >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- >>>>>> boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of finkle dinkle >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:08 PM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>>>> >>>>>> Justin, appreciate your suggestion. I've been looking around and >>>>>> will continue to. >>>>>> >>>>>> Josh, the gbit ptp will be done through fiber to the building, >>>>>> then >>>>>> whoever in the building wants service.. will pay set up to get set >>>>>> up with ethernet or fiber to my office. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know I could get enough business inside the building to cover >>>>>> half >>>>>> the cost of everything because I'm pretty sure there is a company >>>>>> here with quite a few T1's, overpaying and not getting what they >>>>>> deserve. >>>>>> I've always been a proponent of maxing stuff out so I will be a >>>>>> great benefit to the tenants. >>>>>> >>>>>> So if I'm able to set something up externally, I may be able to >>>>>> actually break even and profit some, I actually know I could >>>>>> profit >>>>>> but I want this to be more of a service to the people who are >>>>>> unable >>>>>> to get anything decent out here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Justin Wilson <li...@mtin.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Nice introduction to the WISPA community. Make fun of the name. >>>>>>> I even >>>>>>> recommended this person check out WISPA from the Ubiquity forums. >>>>>> Anyhow, >>>>>>> welcome. I would suggest reading through the archives for some >>>>>>> good discussions on things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Justin >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Justin Wilson <j...@mtin.net> >>>>>>> http://www.mtin.net/blog >>>>>>> Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Jack Unger <jun...@ask-wi.com> >>>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:28:35 -0700 >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Becoming a Wisp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My first recommendation would be to legally change your name from >>>>>>> Finkle Dinkle to something that sounds a little more business- >>>>>>> like. >>>>>>> I'd recommend something like "Joe Smith" or "Bob Jones". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> finkle dinkle wrote: >>>>>>>> So, I've got space in a building in So. Cal with a lot of >>>>>>>> neighbors with crappy connections. In the beginning, I wanted to >>>>>>>> bring in a gig PTP from the datacenter 12 miles away... I'm >>>>>>>> not a >>>>>>>> salesman, I think with the bandwidth I have available at the >>>>>>>> DC + >>>>>>>> the of the PTP, I could've made everyone in the building >>>>>>>> happy, at >>>>>>>> least 20 tenants if I could convince them.. doubt I could. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I have potential access to the roof, I'd have to ask. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are there any laws if I want to sell service ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If I want to provide service to lets just say 50 clients (not in >>>>>>>> the building but through wireless), are there devices that dont >>>>>>>> have to rely on LOS ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm just trying to understand if this all went along well, how >>>>>>>> many devices would I need to mount up on the roof to support >>>>>>>> 20-50 >>>>>>>> clients externally with the devices and which devices.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm looking to sell the bandwidth for a relatively low price, >>>>>>>> undercut wimax and not strictly looking for profit but looking >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be the point guy for other tech operations for these potential >>>>>>>> clients.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, to the people who have good access to bandwidth or even >>>>>>>> not.. >>>>>>>> how much are you looking at from all your cost to what you >>>>>>>> actually charge (not including administrative) but lets assume >>>>>>>> your bandwidth costs are 8k/month with the point to point to the >>>>>>>> datacenter + 1000mbit commit. I know I could do better but what >>>>>>>> are we looking at here, if the total cost to get the bandwidth, >>>>>>>> less the equipment to my office building at 8 bux a meg, how >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> should I be selling it ? >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> recommendations ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do not want to be a company like towerstream where I sell 8 >>>>>>>> megs >>>>>>>> for 800/MRC, i'm looking to charge more like 25 bux per meg... >>>>>>>> Is >>>>>>>> my model right or wrong ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>>>>> Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing Serving >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since >>>>>>> 1993 >>>>>>> www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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