Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which are actually quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET architecture but I find the environment less than compelling.
So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET - then it sounds like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just haven't gone the final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet. Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 - 8 months ago I was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my displeasures in my investment of time and money, my seemingly crumbling future, Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And on more than one occasion. I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about how, what, when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the occasional flamelett when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-). It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't want to start over from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I decided to fix up the house I have and I started by building my sites ( http://xml-extra.net and http://witango.org ). I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and do what I can do contribute to building a stronger community of developers, which ultimately contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I traveled to the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was rewarded many times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and by Phil and Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly to heart. Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been enormously rewarding as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you) is going to experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to contribute by way of the Public Beta. What am I saying Alex? Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think it's possible and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on board together and help make Witango everything it can be. Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in life, except that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux. I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay on board based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are expecting more guarantees than that from anybody other than yourself - then I wish you luck, because luck will be all you've got left to carry your endeavors through. I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable knowledge - we can use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast more than one and I don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need more positive action than negative right now. Flame me. Bring it on! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the selling point. > To get there would require a huge amount of development effort, but you know > - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5 effort. And I > believe With got some of that work. So if they are basing some of their Java > work off that - then I can say that it may be very compelling. Tango's IDE > is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's DreamWeaver MX in my opinion > (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick things). The > server - no matter how much work they've done on it - just won't be as good > as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its limited. It'll > definitely be better than what T4 provided from the very fact of who is > mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have high hopes of the > technology in the short term. > > But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best application > development environments yet it has no code completion and other editor > niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been almost #1 on my list > for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type feature. I would love > to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the decision on what > product I use. > > -- > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > zoomzoom > > > > From: Robert Sfeir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400 > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that will be the day! > > If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs out there > > provided that they can also do internal debugging (true debugging that > > is like any other language with break points, step in/out etc...) from > > within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of features to > > compete including refactoring, code completion (for html, jsp and xml), > > and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within the editor > > itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango app server and let > > the existing java app servers deal with it, and concentrate on the IDE > > only. > > > > Of course I've been singing this song forever, but everyone thinks I'm > > nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized app server to > > run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with their stuff with > > NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the T5 app > > server, from what is described on this list, is something that Everyware > > and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago. > > Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're stuck with > > trying to make things work the way they should have been in the FIRST > > PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of catching up to market demands, > > which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE. So their task is > > larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they loose any kind of > > connection they had with the previous name of the product, and they're > > having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy either > > considering 95% of their market is over here. > > > > Just my 2c. > > R > > > > On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote: > > > >> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and sometimes I don't > >> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also tend to be very > >> opinionated - that didn't always come out when I worked for PVSW since I > >> tended to be quite corporate there :) > >> > >> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web application user > >> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP driven), but once you've > >> used > >> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make life simple in > >> so > >> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are key to me - > >> specifically web services - as I build more automated features into our > >> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted, I've been the one > >> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number generation > >> through > >> web services to provide the best user experience, as well as tying into > >> their engines in our site through web services - but either way, its > >> something that I really do need. > >> > >> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few Austin based > >> enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth of hardware for a > >> website alone or $1mil for one single software/consulting deal) and > >> they all > >> HAD tango stuff running and have moved to .NET. Now Tango is probably > >> never > >> going to be on their radar again - but who knows? > >> > >> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs. Windows server > >> license > >> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome IDE...) - anywhere > >> from > >> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already have a Windows > >> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using that IDE, I can > >> built > >> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some cases far less > >> time > >> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. But > >> .NET > >> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength sessions states - > >> and > >> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't stop you from > >> anything. > >> > >> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it doesn't feel like > >> home. > >> There is just something about Tango's design that I still love. But I > >> want > >> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder if it will do > >> what I > >> want it to do - and I also don't have time to do that. I want to know > >> if I > >> should just stop even thinking about it - or :) > >> > >> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me because then - > >> if > >> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango and export to j2ee > >> for > >> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it in Tango > >> again - > >> and that's a big issue. > >> > >> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back and make a > >> decision. > >> > >> -- > >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > >> > >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > >> > >> zoomzoom > >> > >> > >>> From: Garth Penglase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000 > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > >>> > >>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would be a valued > >>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming efforts in > >>> the > >>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new version to keep you > >>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items mentioned in > >>> your > >>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer (if there is > >>> such > >>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but they certainly > >>> would > >>> take the product a long way further than the previous incarnation and > >>> would > >>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product doesn't > >>> live up > >>> to these expectations initially, the extension of its legendary > >>> ease-of-use > >>> and new speed and stability, along with the advancements already > >>> mentioned > >>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the majority of us. > >>> > >>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a duller list as > >>> well - the > >>> number of emails in this thread has got to be a record, and you > >>> certainly > >>> have made life a little more interesting on the list! > >>> cheers > >>> Garth > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________________ > >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) > > > > iD8DBQE9SAjvK/1j/4sLi/ARAlQVAJ9fJIZmdXesaw2s4aavA9z4HabbbACgqIUG > > qe7lzbXZEObjqVWAwQbCxb0= > > =dMTD > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
