Sold myself on WiTango? Of course I did - many years back. I've been on the list during the April conference - learned a bit - but saw that it was awhile away. So I unsubscribed. Then I subscribed again right before Macworld. So yes, I'm coming in as an outsider :)
As for .NET - I love .NET. I truly dislike its lack of cross-platformness. I also want an editor that's native to Mac OS X. My servers now run Windows. They will move to OS X Server now that Jaguar is coming out. Jag and XServe make a viable server to me that doesn't lock me in like Microsoft does. Now the question is not if I've sold myself on WiTango - its the internal fight over will it meet my needs now and in the future? Honestly, I did not mean to start a "roast" or flame war. However, as I thought I had stated my viewpoint and questions from the onset, I was hoping to get answers based on that - instead I kept getting pushed back to how WiTango compared to Tango 4 - which frankly, I didn't care. And it just seemed like a runaround - so yes, I got very frustrated with those answers. I don't have much patience for getting an answer to a question I didn't ask. YOUR answers have been far more on track to my questions - and I appreciate that. In any case, I'm here asking questions because With just hasn't answered them themselves on their site. Its all very hush hush - which I find ridiculous. And yeah, that probably frustrates me too. Look, I'm a father of 3 BOYS all about 1 year apart. It becomes a lot easier to get frustrated at this list - my boys don't know better :) -- Alex Kac, CEO/Developer Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management http://www.pocketinformant.com/ zoomzoom > From: "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:45:53 -0700 > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which are actually > quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET architecture but I find > the environment less than compelling. > > So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET - then it sounds > like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just haven't gone the > final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet. > > Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 - 8 months ago I > was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my displeasures > in my investment of time and money, my seemingly crumbling future, > Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And on more than > one occasion. > > I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about how, what, > when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the occasional flamelett > when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-). > > It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't want to start over > from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I decided to fix up the > house I have and I started by building my sites ( http://xml-extra.net and > http://witango.org ). > > I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and do what I can do > contribute to building a stronger community of developers, which ultimately > contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I traveled to > the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was rewarded many > times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and by Phil and > Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly to heart. > > Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been enormously rewarding > as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you) is going to > experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to contribute by > way of the Public Beta. > > What am I saying Alex? > > Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think it's possible > and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on board together and > help make Witango everything it can be. > > Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in life, except > that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux. > > I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay on board > based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are expecting more > guarantees than that from anybody other than yourself - then I wish you > luck, because luck will be all you've got left to carry your endeavors > through. > > I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable knowledge - we can > use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast more than one and I > don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need more positive > action than negative right now. > > Flame me. Bring it on! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > >> I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the selling > point. >> To get there would require a huge amount of development effort, but you > know >> - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5 effort. And I >> believe With got some of that work. So if they are basing some of their > Java >> work off that - then I can say that it may be very compelling. Tango's > IDE >> is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's DreamWeaver MX in my > opinion >> (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick things). The >> server - no matter how much work they've done on it - just won't be as > good >> as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its limited. It'll >> definitely be better than what T4 provided from the very fact of who is >> mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have high hopes of the >> technology in the short term. >> >> But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best application >> development environments yet it has no code completion and other editor >> niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been almost #1 on my > list >> for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type feature. I would > love >> to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the decision on what >> product I use. >> >> -- >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer >> >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ >> >> zoomzoom >> >> >>> From: Robert Sfeir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400 >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? >>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that will be the day! >>> If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs out there >>> provided that they can also do internal debugging (true debugging that >>> is like any other language with break points, step in/out etc...) from >>> within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of features to >>> compete including refactoring, code completion (for html, jsp and xml), >>> and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within the editor >>> itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango app server and > let >>> the existing java app servers deal with it, and concentrate on the IDE >>> only. >>> >>> Of course I've been singing this song forever, but everyone thinks I'm >>> nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized app server to >>> run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with their stuff with >>> NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the T5 app >>> server, from what is described on this list, is something that > Everyware >>> and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago. >>> Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're stuck with >>> trying to make things work the way they should have been in the FIRST >>> PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of catching up to market > demands, >>> which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE. So their task > is >>> larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they loose any kind of >>> connection they had with the previous name of the product, and they're >>> having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy either >>> considering 95% of their market is over here. >>> >>> Just my 2c. >>> R >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote: >>> >>>> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and sometimes I > don't >>>> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also tend to be very >>>> opinionated - that didn't always come out when I worked for PVSW since > I >>>> tended to be quite corporate there :) >>>> >>>> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web application > user >>>> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP driven), but once > you've >>>> used >>>> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make life simple in >>>> so >>>> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are key to me - >>>> specifically web services - as I build more automated features into > our >>>> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted, I've been the > one >>>> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number generation >>>> through >>>> web services to provide the best user experience, as well as tying > into >>>> their engines in our site through web services - but either way, its >>>> something that I really do need. >>>> >>>> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few Austin based >>>> enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth of hardware for a >>>> website alone or $1mil for one single software/consulting deal) and >>>> they all >>>> HAD tango stuff running and have moved to .NET. Now Tango is probably >>>> never >>>> going to be on their radar again - but who knows? >>>> >>>> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs. Windows server >>>> license >>>> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome IDE...) - > anywhere >>>> from >>>> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already have a Windows >>>> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using that IDE, I can >>>> built >>>> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some cases far > less >>>> time >>>> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. > But >>>> .NET >>>> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength sessions > states - >>>> and >>>> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't stop you from >>>> anything. >>>> >>>> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it doesn't feel like >>>> home. >>>> There is just something about Tango's design that I still love. But I >>>> want >>>> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder if it will do >>>> what I >>>> want it to do - and I also don't have time to do that. I want to know >>>> if I >>>> should just stop even thinking about it - or :) >>>> >>>> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me because then - >>>> if >>>> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango and export to j2ee >>>> for >>>> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it in Tango >>>> again - >>>> and that's a big issue. >>>> >>>> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back and make a >>>> decision. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer >>>> >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management >>>> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ >>>> >>>> zoomzoom >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: Garth Penglase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000 >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? >>>>> >>>>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would be a valued >>>>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming efforts in >>>>> the >>>>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new version to keep > you >>>>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items mentioned in >>>>> your >>>>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer (if there is >>>>> such >>>>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but they certainly >>>>> would >>>>> take the product a long way further than the previous incarnation and >>>>> would >>>>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product doesn't >>>>> live up >>>>> to these expectations initially, the extension of its legendary >>>>> ease-of-use >>>>> and new speed and stability, along with the advancements already >>>>> mentioned >>>>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the majority of us. >>>>> >>>>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a duller list as >>>>> well - the >>>>> number of emails in this thread has got to be a record, and you >>>>> certainly >>>>> have made life a little more interesting on the list! >>>>> cheers >>>>> Garth >>>> >>>> > ________________________________________________________________________ >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) >>> >>> iD8DBQE9SAjvK/1j/4sLi/ARAlQVAJ9fJIZmdXesaw2s4aavA9z4HabbbACgqIUG >>> qe7lzbXZEObjqVWAwQbCxb0= >>> =dMTD >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> >>> > ________________________________________________________________________ >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >> > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
