Here's hoping they let you in to the beta ;-)
In most beta I have been in you have to be accepted, who know which way it will go. In this beta there is going to be a login to the bugtrack so you don't have to re-enter you information over and over and over... let's hope you are accepted, and your knowledge is assimilated into the collective :-) Ben Johansen - http://www.pcforge.com Authorized WiTango Reseller http://www.pcforge.com/WitangoGoodies.htm latest beta downloads @ http://www.witango.ws -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alex Kac Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? Knowing myself, I'll start testing the moment I can download it. With Tango, I'm at least proficient enough to do that. That's one of the reasons I came back to see what's going on. So in any case, I'm happy with waiting until after Monday to make my decision :) Once I do - trust me, you'll either never hear from me again - or a lot of me. I don't tend to lurk much.... -- Alex Kac, CEO/Developer Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management. http://www.pocketinformant.com/ zoomzoom > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Scott Cadillac > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:55 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > You're message is clear, Alex. > > Frustration. This is something we can all identify with here > on the List - including Ben. > > Ben is a stalwart supporter of Witango and you managed to > strike a nerve that runs deep in many of us. So don't just > get mad at him, get mad at me too. > > Of course, the issue of information is still at hand. Why the > lack of it? Sadly, I can't answer that, but I can tell you it > is not because Phil and Sophie don't care about us or the > product, they do. It wasn't until the Conference that their > true sincerity was shown to all of us that attended - > sincerity that they want Tango to live on and have a future. > Plus Phil is the kind of character that just won't open his > month unless he can look you in the eye and speak to you > straight with hard facts. > > In the meantime, lets move onto more constructive topics. > With the release of the Public Beta, everyone will see the > progress made, where things are going and - with a dash of > realism - everyone will get some input. Where are you going > to start testing? > > On a side note, given Phil's nature, I suspect that all the > features currently on the design table will most likely come > out in stages and won't all be in the first Beta release. > > There are some exciting days ahead, and I'm glad you're onboard Alex. > > Cheers... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > Sold myself on WiTango? Of course I did - many years back. > I've been > > on > the > > list during the April conference - learned a bit - but saw > that it was > > awhile away. So I unsubscribed. Then I subscribed again > right before > > Macworld. So yes, I'm coming in as an outsider :) > > > > As for .NET - I love .NET. I truly dislike its lack of > cross-platformness. I > > also want an editor that's native to Mac OS X. My servers now run > Windows. > > They will move to OS X Server now that Jaguar is coming out. Jag and > XServe > > make a viable server to me that doesn't lock me in like Microsoft > > does. > > > > Now the question is not if I've sold myself on WiTango - its the > > internal fight over will it meet my needs now and in the future? > > > > Honestly, I did not mean to start a "roast" or flame war. > However, as > > I thought I had stated my viewpoint and questions from the onset, I > > was > hoping > > to get answers based on that - instead I kept getting > pushed back to > > how WiTango compared to Tango 4 - which frankly, I didn't > care. And it > > just seemed like a runaround - so yes, I got very frustrated with > > those > answers. > > I don't have much patience for getting an answer to a question I > > didn't > ask. > > > > YOUR answers have been far more on track to my questions - and I > appreciate > > that. In any case, I'm here asking questions because With > just hasn't > > answered them themselves on their site. Its all very hush > hush - which > > I find ridiculous. And yeah, that probably frustrates me too. Look, > > I'm a father of 3 BOYS all about 1 year apart. It becomes a > lot easier > > to get frustrated at this list - my boys don't know better :) > > > > -- > > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > > > zoomzoom > > > > > > > From: "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:45:53 -0700 > > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which are > actually > > > quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET > architecture but I > find > > > the environment less than compelling. > > > > > > So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET - then it > sounds > > > like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just > haven't gone > > > the final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet. > > > > > > Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 - > 8 months > > > ago > I > > > was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my > displeasures > > > in my investment of time and money, my seemingly > crumbling future, > > > Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And on > > > more > than > > > one occasion. > > > > > > I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about how, > > > what, when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the > > > occasional > flamelett > > > when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-). > > > > > > It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't > want to start > over > > > from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I > decided to fix > > > up > the > > > house I have and I started by building my sites > > > http://xml-extra.net > and > > > http://witango.org ). > > > > > > I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and > do what I > > > can > do > > > contribute to building a stronger community of developers, which > ultimately > > > contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I > > > traveled > to > > > the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was > > > rewarded > many > > > times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and by > > > Phil > and > > > Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly > to heart. > > > > > > Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been enormously > rewarding > > > as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you) > is going to > > > experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to > > > contribute > by > > > way of the Public Beta. > > > > > > What am I saying Alex? > > > > > > Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think it's > possible > > > and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on > board together > > > and help make Witango everything it can be. > > > > > > Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in life, > except > > > that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux. > > > > > > I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay on > > > board based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are > > > expecting more guarantees than that from anybody other > than yourself > > > - then I wish you luck, because luck will be all you've > got left to > > > carry your endeavors through. > > > > > > I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable > knowledge - > > > we > can > > > use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast > more than one > > > and > I > > > don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need more > positive > > > action than negative right now. > > > > > > Flame me. Bring it on! > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > > > >> I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the > > >> selling > > > point. > > >> To get there would require a huge amount of development > effort, but > you > > > know > > >> - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5 > effort. And > > >> I believe With got some of that work. So if they are > basing some of > their > > > Java > > >> work off that - then I can say that it may be very compelling. > > >> Tango's > > > IDE > > >> is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's > DreamWeaver MX in > > >> my > > > opinion > > >> (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick > > >> things). > The > > >> server - no matter how much work they've done on it - > just won't be > > >> as > > > good > > >> as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its limited. > > >> It'll definitely be better than what T4 provided from > the very fact > > >> of who > is > > >> mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have > high hopes of > the > > >> technology in the short term. > > >> > > >> But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best > application > > >> development environments yet it has no code completion and other > editor > > >> niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been > almost #1 > > >> on > my > > > list > > >> for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type feature. I > > >> would > > > love > > >> to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the > decision on > what > > >> product I use. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > >> > > >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > >> > > >> zoomzoom > > >> > > >> > > >>> From: Robert Sfeir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400 > > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > >>> > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > >>> Hash: SHA1 > > >>> > > >>> Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that > will be the > day! > > >>> If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs > out there > > >>> provided that they can also do internal debugging (true > debugging > that > > >>> is like any other language with break points, step > in/out etc...) > from > > >>> within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of > features > > >>> to compete including refactoring, code completion (for > html, jsp > > >>> and > xml), > > >>> and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within > the editor > > >>> itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango > app server > > >>> and > > > let > > >>> the existing java app servers deal with it, and > concentrate on the > IDE > > >>> only. > > >>> > > >>> Of course I've been singing this song forever, but > everyone thinks > I'm > > >>> nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized app > > >>> server > to > > >>> run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with > their stuff > with > > >>> NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the T5 > > >>> app server, from what is described on this list, is > something that > > > Everyware > > >>> and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago. > > >>> Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're stuck > > >>> with trying to make things work the way they should > have been in > > >>> the FIRST PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of > catching up to > > >>> market > > > demands, > > >>> which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE. > So their > > >>> task > > > is > > >>> larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they > loose any kind > > >>> of connection they had with the previous name of the > product, and > they're > > >>> having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy > > >>> either considering 95% of their market is over here. > > >>> > > >>> Just my 2c. > > >>> R > > >>> > > >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and > sometimes > > >>>> I > > > don't > > >>>> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also > tend to be > > >>>> very opinionated - that didn't always come out when I > worked for > > >>>> PVSW > since > > > I > > >>>> tended to be quite corporate there :) > > >>>> > > >>>> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web > > >>>> application > > > user > > >>>> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP > driven), but once > > > you've > > >>>> used > > >>>> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make life > > >>>> simple > in > > >>>> so > > >>>> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are > key to me > > >>>> - specifically web services - as I build more > automated features > > >>>> into > > > our > > >>>> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted, > I've been > > >>>> the > > > one > > >>>> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number > > >>>> generation through web services to provide the best user > > >>>> experience, as well as tying > > > into > > >>>> their engines in our site through web services - but > either way, > > >>>> its something that I really do need. > > >>>> > > >>>> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few Austin > > >>>> based enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth of > > >>>> hardware for > a > > >>>> website alone or $1mil for one single > software/consulting deal) > > >>>> and they all HAD tango stuff running and have moved to > .NET. Now > > >>>> Tango is > probably > > >>>> never > > >>>> going to be on their radar again - but who knows? > > >>>> > > >>>> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs. Windows > > >>>> server license > > >>>> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome IDE...) - > > > anywhere > > >>>> from > > >>>> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already > have a Windows > > >>>> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using > that IDE, > > >>>> I > can > > >>>> built > > >>>> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some cases > > >>>> far > > > less > > >>>> time > > >>>> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and > > >>>> weaknesses. > > > But > > >>>> .NET > > >>>> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength sessions > > > states - > > >>>> and > > >>>> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't > stop you > > >>>> from anything. > > >>>> > > >>>> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it > doesn't feel > like > > >>>> home. > > >>>> There is just something about Tango's design that I > still love. > > >>>> But > I > > >>>> want > > >>>> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder > if it will > > >>>> do what I want it to do - and I also don't have time > to do that. > > >>>> I want to > know > > >>>> if I > > >>>> should just stop even thinking about it - or :) > > >>>> > > >>>> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me because > then - > > >>>> if > > >>>> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango > and export to > j2ee > > >>>> for > > >>>> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it in > > >>>> Tango again - and that's a big issue. > > >>>> > > >>>> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back and > > >>>> make a decision. > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > >>>> > > >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > >>>> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > >>>> > > >>>> zoomzoom > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> From: Garth Penglase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000 > > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would be a > valued > > >>>>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming > > >>>>> efforts > in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new > version to > > >>>>> keep > > > you > > >>>>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items > > >>>>> mentioned > in > > >>>>> your > > >>>>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer (if > > >>>>> there > is > > >>>>> such > > >>>>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but they > certainly > > >>>>> would > > >>>>> take the product a long way further than the previous > > >>>>> incarnation > and > > >>>>> would > > >>>>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product > > >>>>> doesn't live up to these expectations initially, the > extension > > >>>>> of its legendary ease-of-use > > >>>>> and new speed and stability, along with the > advancements already > > >>>>> mentioned > > >>>>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the > majority of > us. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a > duller list as > > >>>>> well - the number of emails in this thread has got to be a > > >>>>> record, and you certainly > > >>>>> have made life a little more interesting on the list! > > >>>>> cheers > > >>>>> Garth > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > > >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the > message body > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >>> Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) > > >>> > > >>> iD8DBQE9SAjvK/1j/4sLi/ARAlQVAJ9fJIZmdXesaw2s4aavA9z4HabbbACgqIUG > > >>> qe7lzbXZEObjqVWAwQbCxb0= > > >>> =dMTD > > >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >>> > > >>> > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > > >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > >>> > > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > > >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > >> > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > __ > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
