I like the sound of your terms Alex, and we all look forward to many long discussions:-)
Cheers.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > Knowing myself, I'll start testing the moment I can download it. With > Tango, I'm at least proficient enough to do that. That's one of the > reasons I came back to see what's going on. > > So in any case, I'm happy with waiting until after Monday to make my > decision:) Once I do - trust me, you'll either never hear from me again > - or a lot of me. I don't tend to lurk much.... > > -- > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management. > http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > zoomzoom > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Scott Cadillac > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:55 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > You're message is clear, Alex. > > > > Frustration. This is something we can all identify with here > > on the List - including Ben. > > > > Ben is a stalwart supporter of Witango and you managed to > > strike a nerve that runs deep in many of us. So don't just > > get mad at him, get mad at me too. > > > > Of course, the issue of information is still at hand. Why the > > lack of it? Sadly, I can't answer that, but I can tell you it > > is not because Phil and Sophie don't care about us or the > > product, they do. It wasn't until the Conference that their > > true sincerity was shown to all of us that attended - > > sincerity that they want Tango to live on and have a future. > > Plus Phil is the kind of character that just won't open his > > month unless he can look you in the eye and speak to you > > straight with hard facts. > > > > In the meantime, lets move onto more constructive topics. > > With the release of the Public Beta, everyone will see the > > progress made, where things are going and - with a dash of > > realism - everyone will get some input. Where are you going > > to start testing? > > > > On a side note, given Phil's nature, I suspect that all the > > features currently on the design table will most likely come > > out in stages and won't all be in the first Beta release. > > > > There are some exciting days ahead, and I'm glad you're onboard Alex. > > > > Cheers... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > > Sold myself on WiTango? Of course I did - many years back. > > I've been > > > on > > the > > > list during the April conference - learned a bit - but saw > > that it was > > > awhile away. So I unsubscribed. Then I subscribed again > > right before > > > Macworld. So yes, I'm coming in as an outsider :) > > > > > > As for .NET - I love .NET. I truly dislike its lack of > > cross-platformness. I > > > also want an editor that's native to Mac OS X. My servers now run > > Windows. > > > They will move to OS X Server now that Jaguar is coming out. Jag and > > XServe > > > make a viable server to me that doesn't lock me in like Microsoft > > > does. > > > > > > Now the question is not if I've sold myself on WiTango - its the > > > internal fight over will it meet my needs now and in the future? > > > > > > Honestly, I did not mean to start a "roast" or flame war. > > However, as > > > I thought I had stated my viewpoint and questions from the onset, I > > > was > > hoping > > > to get answers based on that - instead I kept getting > > pushed back to > > > how WiTango compared to Tango 4 - which frankly, I didn't > > care. And it > > > just seemed like a runaround - so yes, I got very frustrated with > > > those > > answers. > > > I don't have much patience for getting an answer to a question I > > > didn't > > ask. > > > > > > YOUR answers have been far more on track to my questions - and I > > appreciate > > > that. In any case, I'm here asking questions because With > > just hasn't > > > answered them themselves on their site. Its all very hush > > hush - which > > > I find ridiculous. And yeah, that probably frustrates me too. Look, > > > I'm a father of 3 BOYS all about 1 year apart. It becomes a > > lot easier > > > to get frustrated at this list - my boys don't know better :) > > > > > > -- > > > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > > > > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > > http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > > > > > zoomzoom > > > > > > > > > > From: "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:45:53 -0700 > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > > > Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which are > > actually > > > > quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET > > architecture but I > > find > > > > the environment less than compelling. > > > > > > > > So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET - then it > > sounds > > > > like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just > > haven't gone > > > > the final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet. > > > > > > > > Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 - > > 8 months > > > > ago > > I > > > > was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my > > displeasures > > > > in my investment of time and money, my seemingly > > crumbling future, > > > > Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And on > > > > more > > than > > > > one occasion. > > > > > > > > I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about how, > > > > what, when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the > > > > occasional > > flamelett > > > > when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-). > > > > > > > > It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't > > want to start > > over > > > > from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I > > decided to fix > > > > up > > the > > > > house I have and I started by building my sites ( > > > > http://xml-extra.net > > and > > > > http://witango.org ). > > > > > > > > I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and > > do what I > > > > can > > do > > > > contribute to building a stronger community of developers, which > > ultimately > > > > contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I > > > > traveled > > to > > > > the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was > > > > rewarded > > many > > > > times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and by > > > > Phil > > and > > > > Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly > > to heart. > > > > > > > > Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been enormously > > rewarding > > > > as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you) > > is going to > > > > experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to > > > > contribute > > by > > > > way of the Public Beta. > > > > > > > > What am I saying Alex? > > > > > > > > Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think it's > > possible > > > > and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on > > board together > > > > and help make Witango everything it can be. > > > > > > > > Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in life, > > except > > > > that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux. > > > > > > > > I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay on > > > > board based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are > > > > expecting more guarantees than that from anybody other > > than yourself > > > > - then I wish you luck, because luck will be all you've > > got left to > > > > carry your endeavors through. > > > > > > > > I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable > > knowledge - > > > > we > > can > > > > use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast > > more than one > > > > and > > I > > > > don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need more > > positive > > > > action than negative right now. > > > > > > > > Flame me. Bring it on! > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the > > > >> selling > > > > point. > > > >> To get there would require a huge amount of development > > effort, but > > you > > > > know > > > >> - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5 > > effort. And > > > >> I believe With got some of that work. So if they are > > basing some of > > their > > > > Java > > > >> work off that - then I can say that it may be very compelling. > > > >> Tango's > > > > IDE > > > >> is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's > > DreamWeaver MX in > > > >> my > > > > opinion > > > >> (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick > > > >> things). > > The > > > >> server - no matter how much work they've done on it - > > just won't be > > > >> as > > > > good > > > >> as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its limited. > > > >> It'll definitely be better than what T4 provided from > > the very fact > > > >> of who > > is > > > >> mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have > > high hopes of > > the > > > >> technology in the short term. > > > >> > > > >> But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best > > application > > > >> development environments yet it has no code completion and other > > editor > > > >> niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been > > almost #1 > > > >> on > > my > > > > list > > > >> for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type feature. I > > > >> would > > > > love > > > >> to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the > > decision on > > what > > > >> product I use. > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > > >> > > > >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > > >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > > >> > > > >> zoomzoom > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> From: Robert Sfeir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400 > > > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > >>> > > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > >>> Hash: SHA1 > > > >>> > > > >>> Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that > > will be the > > day! > > > >>> If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs > > out there > > > >>> provided that they can also do internal debugging (true > > debugging > > that > > > >>> is like any other language with break points, step > > in/out etc...) > > from > > > >>> within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of > > features > > > >>> to compete including refactoring, code completion (for > > html, jsp > > > >>> and > > xml), > > > >>> and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within > > the editor > > > >>> itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango > > app server > > > >>> and > > > > let > > > >>> the existing java app servers deal with it, and > > concentrate on the > > IDE > > > >>> only. > > > >>> > > > >>> Of course I've been singing this song forever, but > > everyone thinks > > I'm > > > >>> nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized app > > > >>> server > > to > > > >>> run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with > > their stuff > > with > > > >>> NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the T5 > > > >>> app server, from what is described on this list, is > > something that > > > > Everyware > > > >>> and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago. > > > >>> Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're stuck > > > >>> with trying to make things work the way they should > > have been in > > > >>> the FIRST PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of > > catching up to > > > >>> market > > > > demands, > > > >>> which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE. > > So their > > > >>> task > > > > is > > > >>> larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they > > loose any kind > > > >>> of connection they had with the previous name of the > > product, and > > they're > > > >>> having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy > > > >>> either considering 95% of their market is over here. > > > >>> > > > >>> Just my 2c. > > > >>> R > > > >>> > > > >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and > > sometimes > > > >>>> I > > > > don't > > > >>>> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also > > tend to be > > > >>>> very opinionated - that didn't always come out when I > > worked for > > > >>>> PVSW > > since > > > > I > > > >>>> tended to be quite corporate there :) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web > > > >>>> application > > > > user > > > >>>> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP > > driven), but once > > > > you've > > > >>>> used > > > >>>> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make life > > > >>>> simple > > in > > > >>>> so > > > >>>> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are > > key to me > > > >>>> - specifically web services - as I build more > > automated features > > > >>>> into > > > > our > > > >>>> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted, > > I've been > > > >>>> the > > > > one > > > >>>> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number > > > >>>> generation through web services to provide the best user > > > >>>> experience, as well as tying > > > > into > > > >>>> their engines in our site through web services - but > > either way, > > > >>>> its something that I really do need. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few Austin > > > >>>> based enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth of > > > >>>> hardware for > > a > > > >>>> website alone or $1mil for one single > > software/consulting deal) > > > >>>> and they all HAD tango stuff running and have moved to > > .NET. Now > > > >>>> Tango is > > probably > > > >>>> never > > > >>>> going to be on their radar again - but who knows? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs. Windows > > > >>>> server license > > > >>>> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome IDE...) - > > > > anywhere > > > >>>> from > > > >>>> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already > > have a Windows > > > >>>> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using > > that IDE, > > > >>>> I > > can > > > >>>> built > > > >>>> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some cases > > > >>>> far > > > > less > > > >>>> time > > > >>>> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and > > > >>>> weaknesses. > > > > But > > > >>>> .NET > > > >>>> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength sessions > > > > states - > > > >>>> and > > > >>>> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't > > stop you > > > >>>> from anything. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it > > doesn't feel > > like > > > >>>> home. > > > >>>> There is just something about Tango's design that I > > still love. > > > >>>> But > > I > > > >>>> want > > > >>>> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder > > if it will > > > >>>> do what I want it to do - and I also don't have time > > to do that. > > > >>>> I want to > > know > > > >>>> if I > > > >>>> should just stop even thinking about it - or :) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me because > > then - > > > >>>> if > > > >>>> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango > > and export to > > j2ee > > > >>>> for > > > >>>> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it in > > > >>>> Tango again - and that's a big issue. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back and > > > >>>> make a decision. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > > > >>>> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> zoomzoom > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> From: Garth Penglase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000 > > > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would be a > > valued > > > >>>>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming > > > >>>>> efforts > > in > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new > > version to > > > >>>>> keep > > > > you > > > >>>>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items > > > >>>>> mentioned > > in > > > >>>>> your > > > >>>>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer (if > > > >>>>> there > > is > > > >>>>> such > > > >>>>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but they > > certainly > > > >>>>> would > > > >>>>> take the product a long way further than the previous > > > >>>>> incarnation > > and > > > >>>>> would > > > >>>>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product > > > >>>>> doesn't live up to these expectations initially, the > > extension > > > >>>>> of its legendary ease-of-use > > > >>>>> and new speed and stability, along with the > > advancements already > > > >>>>> mentioned > > > >>>>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the > > majority of > > us. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a > > duller list as > > > >>>>> well - the number of emails in this thread has got to be a > > > >>>>> record, and you certainly > > > >>>>> have made life a little more interesting on the list! > > > >>>>> cheers > > > >>>>> Garth > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > __________ > > > >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the > > message body > > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >>> Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) > > > >>> > > > >>> iD8DBQE9SAjvK/1j/4sLi/ARAlQVAJ9fJIZmdXesaw2s4aavA9z4HabbbACgqIUG > > > >>> qe7lzbXZEObjqVWAwQbCxb0= > > > >>> =dMTD > > > >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > __________ > > > >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > ______________________________________________________________ > > __________ > > > >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > __________ > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > __ > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > __________ > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
