Alex, As one of the people on this list who have been developing with WiTango and before "Tango", I can empathyze with your situation.
We looked at .NET for 2 weeks and never entertained the idea again. Basically, it's the cross-platform abilities and java bean integration that we need. Most fortune 500 + companies have Solaris as their web server platform. As well, we were extremely disappointed with .NET's limitations with creating web applications for wireless handheld devices. This is crucial for us since the web is heading in the direction of wireless communications with the launch of the bluetooth chip, and 80kbps upload and download from a wireless device. Put WiTango into the equation, and we've yet to find a better and faster development platform for wireless web applications. All I can say is that at least With isn't making empty promises like Everyware and Pervasive. There were so many press releses and release dates for Tango 2000 it wasn't funny. Finally, Tango 2000 was released 4 months later than originally planned, and not with all the features that were in the press release. E.g: The builders were supposed to have been completely re-designed and do more complex building than Tango 3. What we got was the exact same builders, with some enhancements. Basically, I would rather With Enterprises says nothing at all, than make promises they can't keep, following the same path as Everyware and Pervasive. With Enterprises bought Tango to not only make the software better, but also the name and business practices as well. This way, when With Enterprises does make their announcements, you can take what they're saying to the bank. Rick Sanders President, Web Energy Tel: (514) 620-3006 Fax: (514) 620-3017 Web: www.webenergy-sw.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > Sold myself on WiTango? Of course I did - many years back. I've been on the > list during the April conference - learned a bit - but saw that it was > awhile away. So I unsubscribed. Then I subscribed again right before > Macworld. So yes, I'm coming in as an outsider :) > > As for .NET - I love .NET. I truly dislike its lack of cross-platformness. I > also want an editor that's native to Mac OS X. My servers now run Windows. > They will move to OS X Server now that Jaguar is coming out. Jag and XServe > make a viable server to me that doesn't lock me in like Microsoft does. > > Now the question is not if I've sold myself on WiTango - its the internal > fight over will it meet my needs now and in the future? > > Honestly, I did not mean to start a "roast" or flame war. However, as I > thought I had stated my viewpoint and questions from the onset, I was hoping > to get answers based on that - instead I kept getting pushed back to how > WiTango compared to Tango 4 - which frankly, I didn't care. And it just > seemed like a runaround - so yes, I got very frustrated with those answers. > I don't have much patience for getting an answer to a question I didn't ask. > > YOUR answers have been far more on track to my questions - and I appreciate > that. In any case, I'm here asking questions because With just hasn't > answered them themselves on their site. Its all very hush hush - which I > find ridiculous. And yeah, that probably frustrates me too. Look, I'm a > father of 3 BOYS all about 1 year apart. It becomes a lot easier to get > frustrated at this list - my boys don't know better :) > > -- > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > > zoomzoom > > > From: "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:45:53 -0700 > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which are actually > > quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET architecture but I find > > the environment less than compelling. > > > > So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET - then it sounds > > like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just haven't gone the > > final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet. > > > > Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 - 8 months ago I > > was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my displeasures > > in my investment of time and money, my seemingly crumbling future, > > Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And on more than > > one occasion. > > > > I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about how, what, > > when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the occasional flamelett > > when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-). > > > > It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't want to start over > > from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I decided to fix up the > > house I have and I started by building my sites ( http://xml-extra.net and > > http://witango.org ). > > > > I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and do what I can do > > contribute to building a stronger community of developers, which ultimately > > contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I traveled to > > the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was rewarded many > > times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and by Phil and > > Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly to heart. > > > > Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been enormously rewarding > > as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you) is going to > > experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to contribute by > > way of the Public Beta. > > > > What am I saying Alex? > > > > Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think it's possible > > and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on board together and > > help make Witango everything it can be. > > > > Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in life, except > > that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux. > > > > I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay on board > > based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are expecting more > > guarantees than that from anybody other than yourself - then I wish you > > luck, because luck will be all you've got left to carry your endeavors > > through. > > > > I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable knowledge - we can > > use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast more than one and I > > don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need more positive > > action than negative right now. > > > > Flame me. Bring it on! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > > > > > >> I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the selling > > point. > >> To get there would require a huge amount of development effort, but you > > know > >> - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5 effort. And I > >> believe With got some of that work. So if they are basing some of their > > Java > >> work off that - then I can say that it may be very compelling. Tango's > > IDE > >> is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's DreamWeaver MX in my > > opinion > >> (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick things). The > >> server - no matter how much work they've done on it - just won't be as > > good > >> as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its limited. It'll > >> definitely be better than what T4 provided from the very fact of who is > >> mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have high hopes of the > >> technology in the short term. > >> > >> But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best application > >> development environments yet it has no code completion and other editor > >> niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been almost #1 on my > > list > >> for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type feature. I would > > love > >> to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the decision on what > >> product I use. > >> > >> -- > >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > >> > >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > >> > >> zoomzoom > >> > >> > >>> From: Robert Sfeir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400 > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > >>> > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >>> Hash: SHA1 > >>> > >>> Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that will be the day! > >>> If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs out there > >>> provided that they can also do internal debugging (true debugging that > >>> is like any other language with break points, step in/out etc...) from > >>> within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of features to > >>> compete including refactoring, code completion (for html, jsp and xml), > >>> and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within the editor > >>> itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango app server and > > let > >>> the existing java app servers deal with it, and concentrate on the IDE > >>> only. > >>> > >>> Of course I've been singing this song forever, but everyone thinks I'm > >>> nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized app server to > >>> run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with their stuff with > >>> NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the T5 app > >>> server, from what is described on this list, is something that > > Everyware > >>> and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago. > >>> Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're stuck with > >>> trying to make things work the way they should have been in the FIRST > >>> PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of catching up to market > > demands, > >>> which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE. So their task > > is > >>> larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they loose any kind of > >>> connection they had with the previous name of the product, and they're > >>> having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy either > >>> considering 95% of their market is over here. > >>> > >>> Just my 2c. > >>> R > >>> > >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote: > >>> > >>>> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and sometimes I > > don't > >>>> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also tend to be very > >>>> opinionated - that didn't always come out when I worked for PVSW since > > I > >>>> tended to be quite corporate there :) > >>>> > >>>> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web application > > user > >>>> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP driven), but once > > you've > >>>> used > >>>> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make life simple in > >>>> so > >>>> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are key to me - > >>>> specifically web services - as I build more automated features into > > our > >>>> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted, I've been the > > one > >>>> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number generation > >>>> through > >>>> web services to provide the best user experience, as well as tying > > into > >>>> their engines in our site through web services - but either way, its > >>>> something that I really do need. > >>>> > >>>> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few Austin based > >>>> enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth of hardware for a > >>>> website alone or $1mil for one single software/consulting deal) and > >>>> they all > >>>> HAD tango stuff running and have moved to .NET. Now Tango is probably > >>>> never > >>>> going to be on their radar again - but who knows? > >>>> > >>>> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs. Windows server > >>>> license > >>>> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome IDE...) - > > anywhere > >>>> from > >>>> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already have a Windows > >>>> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using that IDE, I can > >>>> built > >>>> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some cases far > > less > >>>> time > >>>> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. > > But > >>>> .NET > >>>> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength sessions > > states - > >>>> and > >>>> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't stop you from > >>>> anything. > >>>> > >>>> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it doesn't feel like > >>>> home. > >>>> There is just something about Tango's design that I still love. But I > >>>> want > >>>> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder if it will do > >>>> what I > >>>> want it to do - and I also don't have time to do that. I want to know > >>>> if I > >>>> should just stop even thinking about it - or :) > >>>> > >>>> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me because then - > >>>> if > >>>> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango and export to j2ee > >>>> for > >>>> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it in Tango > >>>> again - > >>>> and that's a big issue. > >>>> > >>>> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back and make a > >>>> decision. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer > >>>> > >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management > >>>> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ > >>>> > >>>> zoomzoom > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> From: Garth Penglase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000 > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware? > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would be a valued > >>>>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming efforts in > >>>>> the > >>>>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new version to keep > > you > >>>>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items mentioned in > >>>>> your > >>>>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer (if there is > >>>>> such > >>>>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but they certainly > >>>>> would > >>>>> take the product a long way further than the previous incarnation and > >>>>> would > >>>>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product doesn't > >>>>> live up > >>>>> to these expectations initially, the extension of its legendary > >>>>> ease-of-use > >>>>> and new speed and stability, along with the advancements already > >>>>> mentioned > >>>>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the majority of us. > >>>>> > >>>>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a duller list as > >>>>> well - the > >>>>> number of emails in this thread has got to be a record, and you > >>>>> certainly > >>>>> have made life a little more interesting on the list! > >>>>> cheers > >>>>> Garth > >>>> > >>>> > > ________________________________________________________________________ > >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >>> Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) > >>> > >>> iD8DBQE9SAjvK/1j/4sLi/ARAlQVAJ9fJIZmdXesaw2s4aavA9z4HabbbACgqIUG > >>> qe7lzbXZEObjqVWAwQbCxb0= > >>> =dMTD > >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >>> > >>> > > ________________________________________________________________________ > >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > >>> > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________________ > >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
